Western perception of niqaab

[glo]

I came across this newspaper column about how niqaab may be perceived by Westeners. (It is an opinion piece, so it really doesn't do any more than reflect the authors opinion)

I know that this kind of topic quickly leads to strong reaction - but I hope this article won't!
Personally, I think it raises some interesting points.

I would like to ask if you can understand concerns and even 'fears' from Westerners about niqaab (as outlined in the article), and what you think about the notion of adjusting to Western cultural values?

Funny to return from Lebanon, Syria and Turkey - where women go unveiled - and return to Britain, the land of the full hijab. I see more women with their faces covered in Tower Hamlets than I did in Damascus.

I used to think that covering the whole face except for the eyes was the normal Islamic custom (in a week in Afghanistan I hardly saw a woman's face) and so was surprised to find that even in Syria, the most culturally conservative of the Middle Eastern countries I've just visited, not a tenth of the women seem to cover their faces. Most (by no means all) cover their heads, but you don't get that closed, turning-away feeling you sense along the Whitechapel Road in the East End of London. In the Damascus streets, women in all-women groups, and women with men, chat and laugh; and I saw to be true (what some Muslims have already told me) that the full hijab cannot be considered a religious duty, but is simply a cultural feature of some societies that are Muslim, but not others.

If so, how far should we tolerate it? Spitting is a cultural feature in China but we discourage it here. In Syria I took my shoes off to enter mosques, though that is not in my culture; and wouldn't have worn clothing like skimpy shorts or vests, or drunk alcohol in the streets: practices offensive not to me but to the mainstream culture where I was.

Knowingly to disturb people's feelings is to be offensive. In Western European society, to go out in public with your face masked is (unless done for comic effect) disturbing. Hiding the face is felt to be threatening, and slightly scary, and subliminally this goes way back, and quite deep I think: it certainly frightens children.

Would it be wrong to try to convey to communities in Britain who adopt the full hijab that, though it is a woman's legal right to dress as she chooses, she should recognise that she's in a country where many people will find a masked face disturbing, and that (without meaning to) she is acting in a culturally inappropriate manner, which may offend? Do the masked women I see in the street in Whitechapel actually know this? I cannot say, because I've never spoken to them: or, rather, when I do, they look away and walk away.

This too, in Britain, is rude. Do they know? Shouldn't they?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle6374844.ece

Salaam :)

[GreyKode]

Spitting is a cultural feature in China but we discourage it here. In Syria I took my shoes off to enter mosques, though that is not in my culture; and wouldn't have worn clothing like skimpy shorts or vests, or drunk alcohol in the streets: practices offensive not to me but to the mainstream culture where I was.

Seriously, how can the author compare such acts like spitting and drinking with the Niqab?

But on the other hand I agree with the author that any woman who wants to wear a Niqab, and is most commited to Islam should think of living in an Islamic country first.
But then the author should also admit that britain or the west in general is after all no different when it comes to freedom and tolerance.

[BlissfullyJaded]

...and I saw to be true (what some Muslims have already told me) that the full hijab cannot be considered a religious duty, but is simply a cultural feature of some societies that are Muslim, but not others.

I'm aware that many do wear it for cultural reason in Muslim countries, but that does not mean it's not a religious duty. People can misinterpret things to their desires, but it's still part of our religion.

Hiding the face is felt to be threatening, and slightly scary, and subliminally this goes way back, and quite deep I think: it certainly frightens children.

I disagree with that. Yes, if you raise your children to be scared of niqaabis, then like heck they're gonna be frightened! But, I've witnessed many children who look at me with curiosity and smiles. Some even whisper to their mother "mommy, look...Mary!" And that's kinda trippy, given that Maryam (Alayha Salaam) isn't depicted according to the Christians with a covered face...but still it's cute. I've also overheard many children ask their parents "why is that lady covered", and heard their parents give good replies. So, point is, no not all children are scared. Children are naturally open minded and curious, it's up to the adults in their lives to encourage that or not.

Do the masked women I see in the street in Whitechapel actually know this? I cannot say, because I've never spoken to them: or, rather, when I do, they look away and walk away.

When she spoke to them they looked away and walked away? :? That sounds odd to me. Speaking for myself, I would never walk away when somebody initiates a conversation with me, unless they decide to preach their views to me as though I'm ignorant and oppressed, in which case I would cordially end the conversation and walk away.

But on the other hand I agree with the author that any woman who wants to wear a Niqab, and is most commited to Islam should think of living in an Islamic country first.

I'd do that gladly, when it becomes possible for me. I think many would like to move, but it's not easy to pack up and leave now, is it? :)

[Yanal]

No that is not true spitting is not allowed in China and so is litering and if you do so you get a fine for at least 500£.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Wyatt]

It's because westerners are ignorant to the Islamic culture and either 1. associate any covering of the face with crime and terrorism, or 2. are scared of anything that is different to them.

There was an arguement somewhere about banning the niqab because someone may wear one, go to a store and shoplift, and not get caught because their faces were never shown. (They don't have to necessarily be a muslim to do so, but no one would say anything if they were wearing one, so it would make it easier.)

After seeing the niqab, I see the hijab as very light in 'modesty'. I have a sudden reaction to greet them with Assalamu Aleikum! but refrain. :D

However, out of the many people who don't have that much insight into it, it is reasonable that there is a certain reaction of fear.

And- to the person about the spitting and alcohol: That was the point of the article. In some cultures, that is not as dirty as the way you perceive it, so whether it is comparable to the situation of the niqab or not, will differ with every person. Which, I think, is. It's not like you're putting them on the same level of honour, but the reactions they get in culture to culture are very similar. Some, in disgust, and some it is normal.

Muslims are increasing in number in the west, so it's inevitable that more awareness of Islam will spread even though there is a widespread islamophobia. Just, at least I have faith that truth will out- and seeing munaqqabāt will be like seeing a nun, a peaceful reaction with the connotation of someone that is just following their religion.

[glo]

Seriously, how can the author compare such acts like spitting and drinking with the Niqab?

I think the comparison is only made in the sense of what is a cultural norm and culturally accepted, and what isn't.

[glo]

I disagree with that. Yes, if you raise your children to be scared of niqaabis, then like heck they're gonna be frightened!

I think the argument made is not that Western children are taught be be frightened of niqaab ... but that they are instinctively wary of people who hide their face behind a mask.

But, I've witnessed many children who look at me with curiosity and smiles. Some even whisper to their mother "mommy, look...Mary!" And that's kinda trippy, given that Maryam (Alayha Salaam) isn't depicted according to the Christians with a covered face...but still it's cute.

When you wear niqaab? That's curious indeed. :)

When she spoke to them they looked away and walked away? :? That sounds odd to me. Speaking for myself, I would never walk away when somebody initiates a conversation with me, unless they decide to preach their views to me as though I'm ignorant and oppressed, in which case I would cordially end the conversation and walk away.

I believe the author of the article is male ...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jawharah

Peace :)

[glo]

After seeing the niqab, I see the hijab as very light in 'modesty'. I have a sudden reaction to greet them with Assalamu Aleikum! but refrain. :D

Interesting you say that, Podarok. It's a point I made in another thread on this topic.

What stops you from greeting a niqaabi? Is there something about her dress, which makes you feel that she may be a private person and may not wish to be approached?
Can you try to explain a bit more why you refrain from speaking to her?

Peace :)

[BlissfullyJaded]

I think the argument made is not that Western children are taught be be frightened of niqaab ... but that they are instinctively wary of people who hide their face behind a mask.

I understand the argument being made, but I don't believe it's necessary accurate, and I say that based on my own interactions. But then, things most probably are different out here where I'm at as opposed to Europe. I'm aware that American children are different.

When you wear niqaab? That's curious indeed. :)

Yes. I wear my niqaab always when I'm out. :)

I believe the author of the article is male ...

Ah, I notice that now. In that case, I think it's based on the manner in which he asked his questions, and I think it would be more acceptable if the questions are asked while a male related to her is present. I wouldn't talk to a random guy who walked up to me, even if I were only wearing hijaab. That said, I have answered questions guys have had for me. :)

[glo]

Well, perhaps we should declare a 'Talk to a niqaabi week', and everybody can share their experiences. :)

[Chains of Faith]

I cant help but think we shall soon have a similar article on beards.

[crayon]

The problem is, when can following customs be considered "too much"? What is the minimum amount of conformity acceptable?

"In Western European society, to go out in public with your face masked is (unless done for comic effect) disturbing. Hiding the face is felt to be threatening, and slightly scary, and subliminally this goes way back, and quite deep I think: it certainly frightens children."

Goths can be considered frightening and disturbing, with their dark make up, piercings, strange hair and clothes. So can satanists. So can she-males. Many people find the appearance of these people offensive and disturbing- are they facing the same issues women in niqaab are?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The problem is, when can following customs be considered "too much"? What is the minimum amount of conformity acceptable?

"In Western European society, to go out in public with your face masked is (unless done for comic effect) disturbing. Hiding the face is felt to be threatening, and slightly scary, and subliminally this goes way back, and quite deep I think: it certainly frightens children."

Goths can be considered frightening and disturbing, with their dark make up, piercings, strange hair and clothes. So can satanists. So can she-males. Many people find the appearance of these people offensive and disturbing- are they facing the same issues women in niqaab are?

Good point sis!

What about gangs eh, how many articles do you see on those. People think it's cool to have a gang O.o And when I say gangs I mean the violent gangs. I know this isn't relevant, but if put in the context of fear.

[yusuf18]

subanallah truth is the west is a devil so its ok for women to be nealy naked in streets but when a woman had dignity and morals and desides to cover up its looked down upon subanalla they so use to seeing women as objects for their desiers that it shocks them

[glo]

Goths can be considered frightening and disturbing, with their dark make up, piercings, strange hair and clothes. So can satanists. So can she-males. Many people find the appearance of these people offensive and disturbing- are they facing the same issues women in niqaab are?

That's a good point! :)

[glo]

subanallah truth is the west is a devil so its ok for women to be nealy naked in streets but when a woman had dignity and morals and desides to cover up its looked down upon subanalla they so use to seeing women as objects for their desiers that it shocks them

Sadly, Yusuf, your post contains the same kind of stereotypes about Westerners, which Muslims (rightly!) refuse to accept non-Muslims making about their beliefs and values.

How would you like this version:
Islam is evil; it demands that women are hidden away and covered; dignity and morals and covering up is forced on people; women are objects, any female desire to decide for herself is considered shocking.

Now, I don't consider this to be the truth! It is a gross stereotype and misrepresentation of most Muslims.
The point I am trying to make is that how you feel when you read my statement is probably not too different from how I felt when I read your post ... let's try to be a bit more respectful of each other's cultures, shall we? :)

Salaam :)

Peace

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ I agree.

[yusuf18]

Sadly, Yusuf, your post contains the same kind of stereotypes about Westerners, which Muslims (rightly!) refuse to accept non-Muslims making about their beliefs and values.

How would you like this version:
Islam is evil; it demands that women are hidden away and covered; dignity and morals and covering up is forced on people; women are objects, any female desire to decide for herself is considered shocking.

Now, I don't consider this to be the truth! It is a gross stereotype and misrepresentation of most Muslims.
The point I am trying to make is that how you feel when you read my statement is probably not too different from how I felt when I read your post ... let's try to be a bit more respectful of each other's cultures, shall we? :)

Salaam :)

Peace

hell no i wont be respectful to the wrong when allah has showed me light it doesent make as sence muslims you are suppose to hate what allah hates /and you saying stuff about islam tell me the rate of rape in the west compare to muslim world and women being used for her body

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yusuf she's not disrespecting you. And as a Muslim its good to keep proper adab and that includes speaking. Not everybody in the West agrees with the concepts that we dont agree with.

[yusuf18]

Yusuf she's not disrespecting you. And as a Muslim its good to keep proper adab and that includes speaking. Not everybody in the West agrees with the concepts that we dont agree with.

if they dont agree thats up to them.then if they dont turn to islam allah make them rott in hell and they will be sorry o allah make your punishement swift on the unbelevers and keep them blind in from islam till they have their last breath ameen

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Rasulallah(saw) didn't behave like you do. Do you remember the instance where Allah Ta'ala was willing to crush a group of people but rasulallah(saw) said no because someone might accept Islam from amongst them? And he did this for people who were awful with him.

Tell me, is that being like the Prophet(saw)?

Personally I make duas like this:

May Allah guide them and if not then may Allah destroy them, ameen. We should want guidance for everyone first before condemning them because even the most bitter enemies of Allah and rasulallah (saw) finally accepted Islam.

[glo]

hell no i wont be respectful to the wrong when allah has showed me light it doesent make as sence muslims you are suppose to hate what allah hates /and you saying stuff about islam tell me the rate of rape in the west compare to muslim world and women being used for her body

Yusuf, let's not get into a statistical comparison of rape between Muslim and non-Muslim countries. I have no idea how such comparisons would fare, and this is not the thread for it!

If you are saying that there are things in Western culture wich are wrong and flawed, then I agree with you. :)

I am simply asking you not to give the impression that all Westerners are evil and that everything about Western values is wrong, because that's not the case.
If you really believe those things in your own heart, then I would like to encourage you to look around you. You will find things in our society, which I hope you will be able to admit are good and worthy.

God's peace to you, young brother :)

[yusuf18]

Yusuf, let's not get into a statistical comparison of rape between Muslim and non-Muslim countries. I have no idea how such comparisons would fare, and this is not the thread for it!

If you are saying that there are things in Western culture wich are wrong and flawed, then I agree with you. :)

I am simply asking you not to give the impression that all Westerners are evil and that everything about Western values is wrong, because that's not the case.
If you really believe those things in your own heart, then I would like to encourage you to look around you. You will find things in our society, which I hope you will be able to admit are good and worthy.

God's peace to you, young brother :)

i agree and i ask allah to open you heart to islam

[glo]

Thank you for your encouraging post, Light of Heaven.
If only all people of all faiths and none were able to be so caring and tolerant.

Peace :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Ameen to that bro yusuf.


Your welcome Glo :)

[yusuf18]

Ameen to that bro yusuf.


Your welcome Glo :)

ameen

[Wyatt]

Interesting you say that, Podarok. It's a point I made in another thread on this topic.

What stops you from greeting a niqaabi? Is there something about her dress, which makes you feel that she may be a private person and may not wish to be approached?
Can you try to explain a bit more why you refrain from speaking to her?

Peace :)

Oh, it's that I am too shy to talk to someone I don't know in real life. :X And, I have only seen some girls that wore the hijāb, and that was at an Obama rally out of town. I don't live in a very multi-cultural city, but I have seen a license plate that said ALLAH1 here. :D

[Al-Zaara]

Funny to return from Lebanon, Syria and Turkey - where women go unveiled - and return to Britain, the land of the full hijab. I see more women with their faces covered in Tower Hamlets than I did in Damascus.

Isn't it! When my parents came here, they weren't practicing at all, just during Ramazan and Bajram (Eid) but when they came here, my father stopped smoking, my mother starting first practicing Islam fully and my father joined her soon after and they made us grow up with Islam in our lives, for real. Not like it's for the majority of my cousins back in Kosovo.

It's probably the 'pressure' of recognizing who you are, what you believe and where you belong. One needs some security, when you come somewhere totally different, like it was for my parents. They weren't Christian nor Finns, but they were Muslims and Kosovars. Some places here are quite religious or at least they hold on strongly to traditions and as they weren't, they had to 'find' themselves. It's like a wake-up call, at least for those who are older than 25 (for example) and come here.

[glo]

Oh, it's that I am too shy to talk to someone I don't know in real life. :X

How then do you get to know people in real life, if you don't talk to them? :)

[glo]

Isn't it! When my parents came here, they weren't practicing at all, just during Ramazan and Bajram (Eid) but when they came here, my father stopped smoking, my mother starting first practicing Islam fully and my father joined her soon after and they made us grow up with Islam in our lives, for real. Not like it's for the majority of my cousins back in Kosovo.

Thanks for sharing, Al-Zaara.
What do you think made the difference for your parents? Perhaps being in a non-Muslim country and feeling a greater need to practice their faith, and being with other Muslims and being recognised as a Muslim?

[Banu_Hashim]

Interesting you say that, Podarok. It's a point I made in another thread on this topic.

What stops you from greeting a niqaabi? Is there something about her dress, which makes you feel that she may be a private person and may not wish to be approached?
Can you try to explain a bit more why you refrain from speaking to her?

Peace :)

My opinion is that the woman who has consciously chosen to wear a niqaab in public has done so purposefully, to avoid unwanted contact. My mum and sister wear the hijaab, but not the full niqaab. In Islam it's a requirement for women to dress modestly and wear loose clothing so as to not reveal the body in any shape... So at the end of the day, you have to make an educated guess (within reason) as to what extent you're going to go, i.e. to cover your face as well or not.

The author has made his views which is fine, but to be honest I didn't find it surprising.

[glo]

My opinion is that the woman who has consciously chosen to wear a niqaab in public has done so to avoid unwanted contact. My mum and sister wear the hijaab, but not the full niqaab. In Islam it's a requirement for women to dress modestly and wear loose clothing so as to not reveal the body in any shape... So at the end of the day, you have to make an educated guess (within reason) as to what extent you're going to go.

So would you say that a niqaabi is likely not to wish to be approached by non-Muslims? Even of they are women?

[Banu_Hashim]

So would you say that a niqaabi is likely not to wish to be approached by non-Muslims? Even of they are women?

Um.. yes, probably. It's really to avoid men, so being approached by a woman wouldn't matter as much really...

[Al-Zaara]

Thanks for sharing, Al-Zaara.
What do you think made the difference for your parents? Perhaps being in a non-Muslim country and feeling a greater need to practice their faith, and being with other Muslims and being recognised as a Muslim?

Yes, that's what I was saying.

They always had Islam around them, but started to appreciate it first when they saw something else so strongly around them, meaning Christianity (Evangelic-Lutheran to be precise). It's like the saying 'you don't know what you've got until it's gone'.

[S_87]

the majority of muslims in the west do not actually wear the veil, id say definitely less than 5% of muslim women in britain veil....they are just spotted loads. I find in Britain, non muslims seem afraid to approach and politely look away even though a veiled woman is quite common. In another western country where its hard to even find muslims when out, ive found that a lot of people actually like the idea of a covered woman, so all of the west isnt the same either.

[S_87]

So would you say that a niqaabi is likely not to wish to be approached by non-Muslims? Even of they are women?

nope, as a niqabi myself im not bothered :)

[Whatsthepoint]

The problem is, when can following customs be considered "too much"? What is the minimum amount of conformity acceptable?

"In Western European society, to go out in public with your face masked is (unless done for comic effect) disturbing. Hiding the face is felt to be threatening, and slightly scary, and subliminally this goes way back, and quite deep I think: it certainly frightens children."

Goths can be considered frightening and disturbing, with their dark make up, piercings, strange hair and clothes. So can satanists. So can she-males. Many people find the appearance of these people offensive and disturbing- are they facing the same issues women in niqaab are?

Yes they are, apart from shemales unless you can tell.
But you can still see their face.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It's hardly as scary as when people go to the extreme and slice their tongues to look like snakes or color their eyes "literally." Like they put dye in it, which gives u the chances of causing blindness...O.o

[glo]

It's hardly as scary as when people go to the extreme and slice their tongues to look like snakes or color their eyes "literally." Like they put dye in it, which gives u the chances of causing blindness...O.o

True. Now that is freaky!!

[Al-Zaara]

But you can still see their face.

Which one sometimes wishes one couldn't. Oh well.

[Whatsthepoint]

Freaky or not, you can see their face and their apparel does not represent a foreign power bent on world domination.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ Now ur just ignorant.

In regards to the example I gave, some people do because they want to or are rebelling against the norms of society, which people like you think Muslims do.

[S_87]

Freaky or not, you can see their face and their apparel does not represent a foreign power bent on world domination.

hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa :rollseyes classic

[Whatsthepoint]

^^ Now ur just ignorant.

In regards to the example I gave, some people do because they want to or are rebelling against the norms of society, which people like you think Muslims do.

Taking it up to the man is good and its usually a phase, and you can see their face so they do not pose a safety concern.
Overreligion is negative at least in my book, which is not everyone's book though, so the only way to legally limit niqabs without affecting the glories of multiculturalism is to group it with masks and hoodies.

[GreyKode]

Freaky or not, you can see their face and their apparel does not represent a foreign power bent on world domination.

Oh yeah, even those who dress like aliens. ;D

[Whatsthepoint]

Oh yeah, even those who dress like aliens. ;D

Depends on the type of alien!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

If you havent realized WTP, no one cares what a non muslim thinks, especially a Muslim practising his/her religion.

[Whatsthepoint]

If you havent realized WTP, no one cares what a non muslim thinks, especially a Muslim practising his/her religion.

I know that, however, non-Muslims have the power to elect a governemnt that would ban the niqab, they can also have a public referendum, schools can decide whether to let a niqabi in a parents meeting etc.
Everything Muslims, or any other minority for that matter, can do, is based on the will of the majority. Multiculturalism, melting pot etc was thought of by the majority and the majority can overrule it, even if it means changing the constitution.
We can see how several countries in Europe are dropping multiculturalism and favor integration instead.
Of course, I don't see niqab being banned in the near future. I personally don't want it banned as such, just in public places.

[crayon]

Yes they are, apart from shemales unless you can tell.
But you can still see their face.

Whether the face shows or not is irrelevant, the article discusses the cultural aspects of niqaab, not safety concerns.

[S_87]

Of course, I don't see niqab being banned in the near future. I personally don't want it banned as such, just in public places.

you dont have this idea in your head that the veil is worn indoors too do you?

[Whatsthepoint]

Whether the face shows or not is irrelevant, the article discusses the cultural aspects of niqaab, not safety concerns.

Not being able to see the face is not merely a safety concern, face is a basic, how do you expect jurors to judge without seeing the defendant? How do you expect someone to trust you without seeing your face?

[Whatsthepoint]

you dont have this idea in your head that the veil is worn indoors too do you?

You can wear it at home or in a mosque, even in a halal chicken store.

[S_87]

Not being able to see the face is not merely a safety concern, face is a basic, how do you expect jurors to judge without seeing the defendant? How do you expect someone to trust you without seeing your face?

there are special cases like in court when the face can be shown

i give my card details to people over the phone without seeing their face but i still trust they arent going to clear out my account...should i not trust them?

[S_87]

You can wear it at home or in a mosque, even in a halal chicken store.

at home?? lol WHATS the point?
In the masjid, where theres a womans only section? WHATS the point?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Firstly we dont need to wear it at home unless people come over...so I'm guessing you do have that thinking :S

[crayon]

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Beating a dead horse? lol :x

[Whatsthepoint]

what I'm proposing is that an employer should have the full right to fire a niqabi on the sole reason of her apparel as well as deny them service, public institutions, such as schools, should have the right to block niqabis from entering etc. No school, bank etc should be obliged to provide female-only identification to accomodate to niqabis and they should be entitled to no compensation when the police do a routine check-up on them.
No such limitations should be imposed on ordinary hijabis.

[Whatsthepoint]

there are special cases like in court when the face can be shown

i give my card details to people over the phone without seeing their face but i still trust they arent going to clear out my account...should i not trust them?

there was a case in Austria, where a woman accused of terrorism refused to take it off so it had to be forcefully removed.
It's up to you, you can go to the bank in person.

[Whatsthepoint]

at home?? lol WHATS the point?
In the masjid, where theres a womans only section? WHATS the point?

Male non-mahrams coming over.
the possibility of a clumsy non-mahram male entering into the wrong section?

[Whatsthepoint]

Beating a dead horse? lol :x

Perhaps it's for the best.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

loool maybe..

[S_87]

there was a case in Austria, where a woman accused of terrorism refused to take it off so it had to be forcefully removed.
It's up to you, you can go to the bank in person.

i do go to the bank in person and have absolutely no problem at all....but i wasnt talking about the bank lol

Male non-mahrams coming over.
the possibility of a clumsy non-mahram male entering into the wrong section?

possible though generally speaking unless its for things like that the veil isnt worn indoors...

[ragdollcat1982]

This shows that even the "tolerant" West is full of bigotry.

[Banu_Hashim]

nope, as a niqabi myself im not bothered :)

well, there you go... A primary source :D. Ignore my answer!

[Whatsthepoint]

This shows that even the "tolerant" West is full of bigotry.

Should tolerance be unlimited?

[Wyatt]

How then do you get to know people in real life, if you don't talk to them? :)

I don't know very many people. :/

[Zafran]

Should tolerance be unlimited?

well should it?

[Whatsthepoint]

well should it?

Nope.

[Zafran]

Nope.

maybe it should.

[Whatsthepoint]

maybe it should.

That would bring chaos.

[Zafran]

That would bring chaos.

No it wouldnt your panicking for no reason.

[Whatsthepoint]

No it wouldnt your panicking for no reason.

Niqab itself wouldn't, but tolerance without boundaries would.

[Zafran]

Niqab itself wouldn't, but tolerance without boundaries would.

true - who puts the boundries?

[Whatsthepoint]

true - who puts the boundries?

The majority, for the most part. And people who make rules.

[Zafran]

The majority, for the most part. And people who make rules.

so they make the boundries because they have the ability and the power to make the rules? - what about the weak and the minority?

[ragdollcat1982]

Should tolerance be unlimited?

One thing I love about the USA is that we have freedom to practice our religion freely. A niqaubi is not bothering anybody. I am personally put off by covering the whole face including the eyes. If I ever adopted the practice I would wear the one that only covers the lower half of the face. But leave these women be and let them go about their business.

[Whatsthepoint]

so they make the boundries because they have the ability and the power to make the rules? - what about the weak and the minority?

Those are usually protected by the lefties and everyone who doesn't want to be labelled intolerant votes their way. However, there's probably decreasing support for certain minorities, Muslims being one of them, as well as increasing for others.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Seems to me people in the UK have a huge problem with niqaabis. It's not as bad in the US. Whats funny is Britain is supposed to be multicultural lol.

[Zafran]

Those are usually protected by the lefties and everyone who doesn't want to be labelled intolerant votes their way. However, there's probably decreasing support for certain minorities, Muslims being one of them, as well as increasing for others.

Lefties - so do you have the "right wing" perception?

[Whatsthepoint]

Seems to me people in the UK have a huge problem with niqaabis. It's not as bad in the US. Whats funny is Britain is supposed to be multicultural lol.

That's exactly what the article is about. where are the boundaries of multiculturalism? Hijab, niqab, spitting..?

[Zafran]

As there been a poll done about the Niqab in Britian as the article only shows "matthews" opnion.

[Whatsthepoint]

Lefties - so do you have the "right wing" perception?

Actually, I'm extremely liberal, except when it comes to immigration and multiculturalism.
The fact is that at current imigration and birth rates Muslims will in a few decades represent a significant percentage of the European population, perhaps even become the majority, some Muslims even brag about it. Now that's not something I'd like hence immigration should be ceased or at least limited and radicalism and radical religion discouraged.

[Zafran]

Actually, I'm extremely liberal, except when it comes to immigration and multiculturalism.
The fact is that at current imigration and birth rates Muslims will in a few decades represent a significant percentage of the European population, perhaps even become the majority, some Muslims even brag about it. Now that's not something I'd like hence immigration should be ceased or at least limited and radicalism and radical religion discouraged.

That seems rightwing. Your panicking - would you deem yourself as a Islamaphobe?

[Whatsthepoint]

That seems rightwing. Your panicking - would you deem yourself as a Islamaphobe?

It is, I said I have different opinions on different issues, some left, some right.
I have a slight phobia of Muslims overtaking Europe someday and turning it into a caliphate. Otherwise I'm all pro tolerance and acceptance, I have some issues with the niqab, which I explained before, but otherwise I like most Muslims.

[Zafran]

It is, I said I have different opinions on different issues, some left, some right.
I have a slight phobia of Muslims overtaking Europe someday and turning it into a caliphate. Otherwise I'm all pro tolerance and acceptance, I have some issues with the niqab, which I explained before, but otherwise I like most Muslims.

Your last post was preety Islamaphobic - the whole birth rates and mass expansion of Muslims - similar to a lot of Islamaphobic anti Muslim stuff - being against Multiculturalism

I'm extremely liberal, except when it comes to immigration and multiculturalism.

anti multiculturalism is always a big factor of the right wing.

[Whatsthepoint]

Your last post was preety Islamaphobic - the whole birth rates and mass expansion of Muslims - similar to a lot of Islamaphobic anti Muslim stuff - being against Multiculturalism



anti multiculturalism is always a big fact of the right wing.

I'm not against multiculturalism per se, but it shouldn't be unlimited, if that makes me a right wing, so be it. Also, not wanting my continent being taken over by foreigners is not islamophobic.

[Zafran]

QUOTE=Whatsthepoint;1159324]I'm not against multiculturalism per se, but it shouldn't be unlimited, if that makes me a right wing, so be it. Also, not wanting my continent being taken over by foreigners is not islamophobic.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Multiculturalism doesnt just talk about muslims or any specific culture - but a wide range of cultures - furthermore ok you dont want you country being taken over by "foreigners" (immigaration) but what about the multicultural people like Inidans, Blacks, Muslims and others who are not foreigners but British or citiznes and part of the country/continent - multiculturalism includes these people.

[S_87]

I'm not against multiculturalism per se, but it shouldn't be unlimited, if that makes me a right wing, so be it. Also, not wanting my continent being taken over by foreigners is not islamophobic.

your continent? :omg::p

[Whatsthepoint]

[QUOTE=Zafran;1159325]

I'm not against multiculturalism per se, but it shouldn't be unlimited, if that makes me a right wing, so be it. Also, not wanting my continent being taken over by foreigners is not islamophobic.[/QUOTE]

Multiculturalism doesnt just talk about muslims or any specific culture - but a wide range of cultures - furthermore ok you dont want you country being taken over by "foreigners" (immigaration) but what about the multicultural people like Inidans, Blacks, Muslims and others who are not foreigners but British or citiznes and part of the country - multiculturalism includes these people.

I know it does and it goes for everyone that it shouldn't be unlimited. People who are already here should be allowed to live according to their culture, as long as it doesn't contradict the laws. The issue of niqaab is that it may pose a safety concern as well as face and eye contact are such a basic part of our culture that it doesn't seem right

[Whatsthepoint]

your continent? :omg::p

My ancestor's continent. Europe is mine and not yours the same way Palestine is Arab and not jewish.
Unless of couse you're a convert or something..

[Zafran]

[QUOTE=Whatsthepoint;1159328]

I know it does and it goes for everyone that it shouldn't be unlimited. People who are already here should be allowed to live according to their culture, as long as it doesn't contradict the laws. The issue of niqaab is that it may pose a safety concern as well as face and eye contact are such a basic part of our culture that it doesn't seem right

what do you mean by our culture? You said that

People who are already here should be allowed to live according to their culture,

so if Niqab is there culture then they should be allowed to practice it as long as they dont break the law.

You are from Europe - are from the UK?

[Whatsthepoint]

Worry not, oh niqaabis! Britains is multicultural and diverse, Diversity have even convinced Simon Cowell.

[S_87]

My ancestor's continent. Europe is mine and not yours the same way Palestine is Arab and not jewish.
Unless of couse you're a convert or something..

i dont see judaism as a race but a religion...and no im not a convert nor was i born in Europe :) makes me wonder who places like america and australia truly belong to :?

[Zafran]

My ancestor's continent. Europe is mine and not yours the same way Palestine is Arab and not jewish.
Unless of couse you're a convert or something..

No thats not how it works - what if I was born here and have a citizenship of the country i live in that country - its my country - continent is questionable as the UK may not want to be actively part of the EU.

[Intisar]

i dont see judaism as a race but a religion...and no im not a convert nor was i born in Europe :) makes me wonder who places like america and australia truly belong to :?

:sl: Well it's a bit different since they slaughtered the natives and took over the land, the same thing hasn't happened in the UK cause the natives of the country rule over it and they didn't take it from someone else.

[Zafran]

i dont see judaism as a race but a religion...and no im not a convert nor was i born in Europe :) makes me wonder who places like america and australia truly belong to :?

Hes from Europe without doubt - the americans dont have that problem and Australia does not see itslef as a conitent. The Islamaphobia in europe is rising as are the extreme rightwing is. - I'm guessing Holland the country of Geert Wilders:D

[Whatsthepoint]

[QUOTE=Zafran;1159330]

what do you mean by our culture? You said that



so if Niqab is there culture then they should be allowed to practice it as long as they dont break the law.

You are from Europe - are from the UK?

Well, culture is ahrd to define, its culture. And yes you're right, they should, but businesses and public institutions shouldn't be requirred to accomodate to them, and everywhere masks and hoodies are banned, niqabis should be as well.
I'm not. I nag a lot about british niqaabis for a continental.:D

[Whatsthepoint]

i dont see judaism as a race but a religion...and no im not a convert nor was i born in Europe :) makes me wonder who places like america and australia truly belong to :?

I meant Israelis.
Who does Palestine belong to? Arabs weren't the first either.

[Zafran]

[QUOTE=Whatsthepoint;1159336]

Well, culture is ahrd to define, its culture. And yes you're right, they should, but businesses and public institutions shouldn't be requirred to accomodate to them, and everywhere masks and hoodies are banned, niqabis should be as well.
I'm not. I nag a lot about british niqaabis for a continental.:D

Yes they should atleast in the UK - especially if she or he is a customer and i havent heard of a single act in the UK anyway about the threat of the Niqabi other then "Matthews" opnion - nobody cares about the "continent" as the UK may not be an active helper of the EU anyway.

[Zafran]

I meant Israelis.
Who does Palestine belong to? Arabs weren't the first either.

Thats never been the argument - Palestine belongs to palestine:D even if they are Jewish or christain. If the Isrealis want to come to Palestine they have to apply for Palestinian citizenship.

[S_87]

I meant Israelis.
Who does Palestine belong to? Arabs weren't the first either.

whoever was living there before the world wars-the palestinians. The zionists in palestine issue is different to what we are discussing btw

[Whatsthepoint]

No thats not how it works - what if I was born here and have a citizenship of the country i live in that country - its my country - continent is questionable as the UK may not want to be actively part of the EU.

Exactly, that's why we should prevent the influx of new Muslims so you can never claim the country for yourself - establish an islamic state.

[S_87]

Exactly, that's why we should prevent the influx of new Muslims so you can never claim the country for yourself - establish an islamic state.

that is something that is not in my or your control. how exactly do you stop a person from converting to islam?

[Zafran]

Exactly, that's why we should prevent the influx of new Muslims so you can never claim the country for yourself - establish an islamic state.

I thought you were Tolerent enough and would allow for the people to live by there culture - Guess what its a democracy atleast the UK is. Not sure about what country your from lol . What about the muslims who are British. Another great Islamaphobic statement - your panicking again.

[Whatsthepoint]

[QUOTE=Zafran;1159338]

Yes they should atleast in the UK - especially if she or he is a customer and i havent heard of a single act in the UK anyway about the threat of the Niqabi other then "Matthews" opnion - nobody cares about the "continent" as the UK may not be an active helper of the EU anyway.

Recently a niqaabi was refused entrance to a parents meeting in a school and I'm guessing there have been more incidents like it.

[Zafran]

that is something that is not in my or your control. how exactly do you stop a person from converting to islam?

salaam

well said - we realy would have that problem. Or is whatsthepoint thinking of a pogrom or even an inquisition?

[S_87]

[QUOTE=Whatsthepoint;1159346]

Recently a niqaabi was refused entrance to a parents meeting in a school and I'm guessing there have been more incidents like it.

yeh for pretty invalid reasons...

[Zafran]

[QUOTE=Whatsthepoint;1159346]

Recently a niqaabi was refused entrance to a parents meeting in a school and I'm guessing there have been more incidents like it.

1 incident - that was also a catholic school I believe. No big deal - it wasnt for security though.

[Whatsthepoint]

whoever was living there before the world wars-the palestinians. The zionists in palestine issue is different to what we are discussing btw

I know but you posted a laugh smiley when I mentioned Europe is mine/ours not yours, so I thought Palestine would fit well in the debate.
Then you mentioned whites taking over North America and Australia from the natives, so I mentioned Arabs conquering Palestine.

[Zafran]

what about people with bags - they could be carrying a bomb - or even a jacket - they could have bomb underneath there jacket.

[Whatsthepoint]

I thought you were Tolerent enough and would allow for the people to live by there culture - Guess what its a democracy atleast the UK is. Not sure about what country your from lol . What about the muslims who are British. Another great Islamaphobic statement - your panicking again.

Yes, its a democracy and the same way multiculturalism was enacted it can just as easily be outlawed.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Jee I wonder how countries Britain took over in their history and how many people were "slaughtered." They think because they did it in the past, someone else will too.
I guess the guilt really hits you hard...that is if they have any.

[Zafran]

or shoes - like dirty bombs or the shoe bomber - as we are panicking

[S_87]

I know but you posted a laugh smiley when I mentioned Europe is mine/ours not yours, so I thought Palestine would fit well in the debate.
Then you mentioned whites taking over North America and Australia from the natives, so I mentioned Arabs conquering Palestine.

did the arabs slaughter and try to get rid of the natives :?

[Whatsthepoint]

that is something that is not in my or your control. how exactly do you stop a person from converting to islam?

You cannot and converts are not an issue as they don't make a difference.

[Zafran]

Yes, its a democracy and the same way multiculturalism was enacted it can just as easily be outlawed.

well maybe in france the anti Hijabi place - have they banned the Niqab as well as the Hijab right?

[Whatsthepoint]

salaam

well said - we realy would have that problem. Or is whatsthepoint thinking of a pogrom or even an inquisition?

All I'm thinking is a stop to (Muslim) immigration and a law that would protect business discriminating niqabis from lawsuits.

[Zafran]

By mutliculturalism you mean the indians,Jews, Muslims and other living within there culture should be outlawed?

[Whatsthepoint]

well maybe in france the anti Hijabi place - have they banned the Niqab as well as the Hijab right?

They banned both, as well as crosses, jewish skullcaps, sikh turbans...
I'm against that.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Typical!

Edit: Dang you guys are fast...lol.

[Whatsthepoint]

By mutliculturalism you mean the indians,Jews, Muslims and other living within there culture should be outlawed?

No, but its possible, heavily unplasuible though.

[Zafran]

All I'm thinking is a stop to (Muslim) immigration and a law that would protect business discriminating niqabis from lawsuits.

what about people with Jackets or shoes (shoe bomber) or bags - those could be a threat - should they also be outlawed in public places and businesses? You also keep using immigartion/multiculturalism as synonmous when they are not - stick with one term because they have different meanings.

so you locked on the muslims - islamaphobic - your panicking again

[Whatsthepoint]

what about people with bags - they could be carrying a bomb - or even a jacket - they could have bomb underneath there jacket.

That's true, though at least you can see their face.
I didn't say niqaab should be banned, I said it may be a safety concern, but it shouldn't be banned because of that.
what I'm saying is that private businesses and public institutions should not accomodate to the overly religious.

[Whatsthepoint]

what about people with Jackets or shoes (shoe bomber) or bags - those could be a threat - should they also be outlawed in public places and businesses? You also keep using immigartion/multiculturalism as synonmous when they are not - stick with one term because they have different meanings.

so you locked on the muslims - islamaphobic - your panicking again

I told you I'm not against multiculturalism as such!
Muslims are the most numerous, like 10% of the whole population.

[Zafran]

That's true, though at least you can see their face.
I didn't say niqaab should be banned, I said it may be a safety concern, but it shouldn't be banned because of that.
what I'm saying is that private businesses and public institutions should not accomodate to the overly religious.

sound french - why not I thought Niqabs were threats - so could Jackets and shoes - what about Nuns?

Has france banned the Niqab?

[Whatsthepoint]

did the arabs slaughter and try to get rid of the natives :?

I don't know, but they certainly conquered it.

[Zafran]

I don't know, but they certainly conquered it.

like the Normans in 1066.

[Whatsthepoint]

sound french - why not I thought Niqabs were threats - so could Jackets and shoes - what about Nuns?

Has france banned the Niqab?

I said safety is not the prime reason why some discrimination of niqaabis should be allowed.

[Whatsthepoint]

like the Normans in 1066.

Yep.

[Zafran]

I said safety is not the prime reason why some discrimination of niqaabis should be allowed.

You said

what I'm saying is that private businesses and public institutions should not accomodate to the overly religious.

what about Nuns?

as France banned the Niqab do you know? I know its banned the Hijab

[Whatsthepoint]

You said



what about Nuns?

as France banned the Niqab do you know? I know its banned the Hijab

Nuns show their face, there's noproblem of identifications or anything.
It banned all religious symbols.

[Whatsthepoint]

Typical!

Edit: Dang you guys are fast...lol.

I'm guessing typical! was for me:D

[Zafran]

Nuns show their face, there's noproblem of identifications or anything.
It banned all religious symbols.

If there isnt a security problem whats the point of banning the Niqab whats the reason??? You havnet given one for the ban to happen - IMO if it is going to happen then only for saftey reasons? But then the shoes, Jackets bags etc also should be looked at.
whats your reason??? identification for what?

[Whatsthepoint]

If there isnt a security problem whats the point of banning the Niqab whats the reason??? You havnet given one for the ban to happen - IMO if it is going to happen then only for saftey reasons? But then the shoes, Jackets bags etc also should be looked at.
whats your reason??? identification for what?

I'm not saying it should be banned. Niqaabis should be free to walk down the street, but if a bank for instance refused to service them because their face is covered and also refused to provide an all-female identification, the bank should be protected from lawsuits.
That's it.
Additionally, niqaabis inspected by the police despite their innoence shouldn't get any compensation or anything.
The reason for no 2 is safety concern.
And none of the above is gonna happen.

[Zafran]

I'm not saying it should be banned. Niqaabis should be free to walk down the street, but if a bank for instance refused to service them because their face is covered and also refused to provide an all-female identification, the bank should be protected from lawsuits.
That's it.
Additionally, niqaabis inspected by the police despite their innoence shouldn't get any compensation or anything.
The reason for no 2 is safety concern.
And none of the above is gonna happen.

Thank God - I disagree with the bank - there are many ways with the bank to check identification - rarely they check the face.

The police is a different matter - that actually goes to safety reasons.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Good job genius! Yes it was for u O.o

[Whatsthepoint]

Good job genius! Yes it was for u O.o

Too slow again!:skeleton:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yea im not really trying to keep up u know....O.O

[Whatsthepoint]

Thank God - I disagree with the bank - there are many ways with the bank to check identification - rarely they check the face.

The police is a different matter - that actually goes to safety reasons.

I know, but should they decide to check it - bad luck for the niqaabis.
Of course, no bank would make any fuss over it, but they should be protected in case they do.

[Whatsthepoint]

Yea im not really trying to keep up u know....O.O

Ok:skeleton:

[Zafran]

I know, but should they decide to check it - bad luck for the niqaabis.
Of course, no bank would make any fuss over it, but they should be protected in case they do.

No they shopuldnt - taking Riba(interest) saves the bank right - But as you said its not gonna happen so bad luck.

[Whatsthepoint]

No they shopuldnt - taking Riba(interest) saves the bank right - But as you said its not gonna happen so bad luck.

What does a niqaabi even do in a non-islamic bank?
It's not and niqaab is not really an issue for me. Immigration is far more fatal and we can see how most countries are turning right on immigration, even where the governments are generally liberal.

[Zafran]

What does a niqaabi even do in a non-islamic bank?
It's not and niqaab is not really an issue for me. Immigration is far more fatal and we can see how most countries are turning right on immigration, even where the governments are generally liberal.

Thats off topic anyway - your anti immigaration doesnt mean the countries are.

[Zafran]

What does a niqaabi even do in a non-islamic bank?

thats like asking whats a agnostic Islamaphobe doing on a muslim forum? Non of your business.

[Whatsthepoint]

Thats off topic anyway - your anti immigaration doesnt mean the countries are.

But they are.

[Whatsthepoint]

thats like asking whats a agnostic islamaphobe doing on a muslim forum? Non of your business.

haha:D

[Zafran]

But they are.

No they not its you and matthews opnion

[Whatsthepoint]

No they not its you and matthews opnion

Nope.
And Matthew doesn't even mention immigration, does he?

[Whatsthepoint]

Would it be wrong to try to convey to communities in Britain who adopt the full hijab that, though it is a woman's legal right to dress as she chooses, she should recognise that she's in a country where many people will find a masked face disturbing, and that (without meaning to) she is acting in a culturally inappropriate manner, which may offend? Do the masked women I see in the street in Whitechapel actually know this? I cannot say, because I've never spoken to them: or, rather, when I do, they look away and walk away.

that's the crux of the whole issue and IMHO the answer is no, it wouldn't.

[Whatsthepoint]

At least we're getting closer to the millionth post..

[Zafran]

Nope.
And Matthew doesn't even mention immigration, does he?

ah Mattew - forgets to write about Immigration yet draws the camrparsion of syria and the UK.

[Whatsthepoint]

ah Mattew - forgets to write about Immigration yet draws the camrparsion of syria and the UK.

Bad Matthew.

[Zafran]

Bad Matthew.

Yes bad bad Matthew - anyway I'm off.

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Yes bad bad Matthew - anyway I'm off.

peace

Me too, it was fun!:D

[glo]

What have you guys done with this thread??!
Pages and pages on meaningless ramble in one night ... go to bed! :mmokay:

[S_87]

I know, but should they decide to check it - bad luck for the niqaabis.
Of course, no bank would make any fuss over it, but they should be protected in case they do.

ive had my face checked in the bank before for valid purposes and why is it bad luck or even a big deal? the airports always check faces too and again how is it bad luck? the niqab isnt worn to be difficult and i dont know of any niqabi who for identification purposes would kick up a fuss.
and just so you know- you can have your interest cancelled in non islamic banks and banks like lyods have shariah accounts :p

You cannot and converts are not an issue as they don't make a difference.

so whats the issue?

[Woodrow]

Somewhere in this jumbled mess the original topic must have been covered.

:threadclo: