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Italianguy
11-21-2009, 12:52 AM
I have a question.

Am i as a Christian considerd an "Infadel"?

If am am please tell me why. If I am not please tell me who is and why.

Thanks, and God be with you.
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جوري
11-21-2009, 01:01 AM
'infidel' is a term invented by Christians toward Muslims, that is how the popes of yore defined Muslims to justify the crusades.. You should read more about that, history I believe is the biggest disperser of myths .....

peace
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جوري
11-21-2009, 01:04 AM
The term infidel comes from the Latin word infidelis, which means "unbelieving" or "unfaithful." During the Middle Ages (c. 450 – c.1500 C.E.), the Catholic Church used the term to describe Muslims. On occasion, Jews were also included in this category


http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Infidel
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Italianguy
11-21-2009, 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
'infidel' is a term invented by Christians toward Muslims, that is how the popes of yore defined Muslims to justify the crusades.. You should read more about that, history I believe is the biggest disperser of myths .....

peace
Thank you for replying. And your are right, history is a disperser of myths. I am just wondering what a Muslim would be thinking of me, as i am a Christian. Does a Muslim love their Christian brothers and sisters as I love my Muslim brothers and sisters?

Peace be unto you.
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جوري
11-21-2009, 02:20 AM
I love my christian friends, of course I'd rather they be Muslims, but I don't impose my beliefs.. There are some Christians that I can't stand and they leave very little to be desired by way of friendship or even civil conversation. I think it is an individual thing, so the above is spoken on behalf of one!

peace
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Italianguy
11-21-2009, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I love my christian friends, of course I'd rather they be Muslims, but I don't impose my beliefs.. There are some Christians that I can't stand and they leave very little to be desired by way of friendship or even civil conversation. I think it is an individual thing, so the above is spoken on behalf of one!

peace
I love my Muslim freinds as well, sometimes they are there for me in a time of need, when no one else is. There are some Christians I can't stand either, but with no offense, there are some Muslims I can't stand either, especialy the ones that treat me like crap because they don't like the fact that their Muslim brothers and sisters hang out with me alot. But in general i love everyone equally no matter what they think, say or do to me. It is an individual thing, I just hope on our last days here on this earth they come to God in peace and love for all.

God be with you!
Reply

ardianto
11-21-2009, 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
I have a question.

Am i as a Christian considerd an "Infadel"?

If am am please tell me why. If I am not please tell me who is and why.

Thanks, and God be with you.
In Islamic perspective Christian considered as infidel because Christians don't believe in Islam.
I Christian perspective Muslim considered as infidel because Muslims don't believe in Christianity.

But it doesn't means we cannot make a good relationship and love each other.
We can live together, study together, work together, having fun together. But we cannot worship together. In example, before lunch we cannot pray together, but we must pray separately. I pray in Islamic way and you pray in Christian way, then we lunch together, .... yummy. :statisfie
Reply

جوري
11-21-2009, 02:40 AM
perfectly understandable indeed some Muslims too leave very little to be desired.. I didn't think this was possible as I seem to have very high tolerance for Muslims in general that I don't extend to others.. but have met a couple of members on this forum of late that surprised me and pushed my resolve.. and it is unfortunate..

May Allah swt guide us unto the path he loves and chooses.. the path of the righteous..

peace
Reply

Italianguy
11-21-2009, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
In Islamic perspective Christian considered as infidel because Christians don't believe in Islam.
I Christian perspective Muslim considered as infidel because Muslims don't believe in Christianity.

But it doesn't means we cannot make a good relationship and love each other.
We can live together, study together, work together, having fun together. But we cannot worship together. In example, before lunch we cannot pray together, but we must pray separately. I pray in Islamic way and you pray in Christian way, then we lunch together, .... yummy. :statisfie
Well put, My wifes sister rooms with a Muslim girl at College. My wifes sister is south Indian Christian,(as is my wife) and her room mate is Pakistani Muslim. They get along great and she(Muslim) is so much fun to hang around with when we visit them.

I did go to dinner the other night with my Muslim freinds and they prayed silently as did we at the table before we ate? Is that wrong? We ate at an awesome Pakistani resturant, it's the best.

Some times it sux, i get alot of flack from poeple who don't like that i have Muslim freinds, but I don't care i have lost prob 10 freinds i grew up with but...i guess it doesn't matter. One of the Muslim family's I am freinds with just came to this country and i have done my best to make them feel welcome, they are great freinds.
Reply

ardianto
11-21-2009, 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
Well put, My wifes sister rooms with a Muslim girl at College. My wifes sister is south Indian Christian,(as is my wife) and her room mate is Pakistani Muslim. They get along great and she(Muslim) is so much fun to hang around with when we visit them.

I did go to dinner the other night with my Muslim freinds and they prayed silently as did we at the table before we ate? Is that wrong? We ate at an awesome Pakistani resturant, it's the best.

Some times it sux, i get alot of flack from poeple who don't like that i have Muslim freinds, but I don't care i have lost prob 10 freinds i grew up with but...i guess it doesn't matter. One of the Muslim family's I am freinds with just came to this country and i have done my best to make them feel welcome, they are great freinds.
Nothing wrong with prayed silently.
Muslim and Christian cannot pray together but I think that is not a problem for you and your Muslim friends.

Brother, in my previous post I told you about Islam's and Christian's perspective about infidel, but that just a religion's perspective. I never want to call you infidel. I have many Christian friends, even some of my family members are Christians.

Unfortunately I live in the other side of the earth. So, I cannot visit your home.

:)
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Al-Indunisiy
11-21-2009, 07:26 AM
I love my christian friends,
But isn't this contrary to al-walaa' wa-l-baraa' doctrine?
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Muslim Woman
11-21-2009, 07:43 AM
Salaam/Peace

Originally Posted by Italianguy
.. Does a Muslim love their Christian brothers and sisters as I love my Muslim brothers and sisters?
.
Muslims are not allowed to hate anyone just because s/he is a Christian. Remember , in Islam , Jews and Christians are considered as ' people of the holy book ' .


related links : Do Muslims Hate non-Muslims?

.....Muslims hate Kufr, or disbelief in Allah, the Almighty. Since we love all people, we hate their disobedience of Allah, the Most High. So, even when people deny the existence of Allah we do not hate them personally; however, we hate their disbelief and disobedience of Allah, Exalted be He.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545526


Does Islam Forbid Befriending Non-Muslims?


...Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just.




Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543362
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alcurad
11-21-2009, 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by Al-Indunisiy
But isn't this contrary to al-walaa' wa-l-baraa' doctrine?
why so? it is illogical to 'hate' people who did nothing to you, and are furthermore your friends, no?
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sister herb
11-21-2009, 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
I have a question.

Am i as a Christian considerd an "Infadel"?

If am am please tell me why. If I am not please tell me who is and why.

Thanks, and God be with you.
Peace with you

we muslims can love and have friends whose are not muslims. We had here before very marvelous friend, called Snakelegs. When we got information about hers passing away we were sad here even she wasn´t muslim.

imsad

We have here also Glo and we enjoy about news from hers garden. How it is now, dear Glo by the way?

You are as welcomed to us italianguy than any other. Hope you will enjoy your time with us, your sisters and brothers in islam.

:statisfie
Reply

Khaldun
11-21-2009, 11:51 AM
:sl:

The Christians and Jews have a very high position in Islaam. Not like any other religion. They are the ahlul kitaab people of the scripture. And are closest to Islaam.

Yet sadly throughout time these religions have changed dramatically and actually adopted heretical views, probably influenced by the time and era they flurished in.

In particular the Qur'aan describes over and over again, the very humble nature of the early Christians, who would fall on their faces in prostration to the all-Mighty Lord upon realising that indeed the Qur'aan is the truth as the Torah and Bible were.

However since many Christians and Jews deviated from the principles of their monothiestic faith, they are considered Mushriks in Islaam. Meaning that they ascribe partners to Allah, anything from sons to mothers. Even though this goes against the ten commandments that Moses himself came with.

3 Do not have any other gods before me.
Exodus 20:2–17
Allah has sent Messenger after Messenger throughout time and mankind believed. The jews however denied Jesus and thus became unbelievers, and in a similar fashion christians denied the last of Messengers Muhammad, and also became unbelievers.

In Islaam when we mention the word love, it has a greater meaning then in english, it is a very deep emotion and it is the same emotion that if directed towards Allah is considered worship. Because of these implications and many more, we are not allowed to love a non muslim, yes we might have feelings for them as when a muslim man marries a christian or jewish lady, but full love we are forbidden from.

Yet as muslims we should treat any human being with mercy, muslim or non muslim, be he hindu or athiest, actually forget human beings even animals!

Our Prophet came to complete good manners, and as Muslims we should follow in his footsteps.
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Supreme
11-21-2009, 02:04 PM
Christianity and Islam are the two largest world religions. Between us, we have 50% of the world's population adhering to our great religions. We worship the same God, revere the same holy lands and share the same problems. There is nothing else for us to do then befriend one another, show each other love, understand each other's religions and treat each other with friendly, if not brotherly, love. I would consider Muslims my brothers and sisters as much as I would consider Catholics my brothers and sisters.
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sudais1
11-21-2009, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
I have a question.

Am i as a Christian considerd an "Infadel"?

If am am please tell me why. If I am not please tell me who is and why.

Thanks, and God be with you.
You are an infidel, your kafir.
Reply

Italianguy
11-21-2009, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:

The Christians and Jews have a very high position in Islaam. Not like any other religion. They are the ahlul kitaab people of the scripture. And are closest to Islaam.

Yet sadly throughout time these religions have changed dramatically and actually adopted heretical views, probably influenced by the time and era they flurished in.

In particular the Qur'aan describes over and over again, the very humble nature of the early Christians, who would fall on their faces in prostration to the all-Mighty Lord upon realising that indeed the Qur'aan is the truth as the Torah and Bible were.

However since many Christians and Jews deviated from the principles of their monothiestic faith, they are considered Mushriks in Islaam. Meaning that they ascribe partners to Allah, anything from sons to mothers. Even though this goes against the ten commandments that Moses himself came with.



Allah has sent Messenger after Messenger throughout time and mankind believed. The jews however denied Jesus and thus became unbelievers, and in a similar fashion christians denied the last of Messengers Muhammad, and also became unbelievers.

In Islaam when we mention the word love, it has a greater meaning then in english, it is a very deep emotion and it is the same emotion that if directed towards Allah is considered worship. Because of these implications and many more, we are not allowed to love a non muslim, yes we might have feelings for them as when a muslim man marries a christian or jewish lady, but full love we are forbidden from.

Yet as muslims we should treat any human being with mercy, muslim or non muslim, be he hindu or athiest, actually forget human beings even animals!

Our Prophet came to complete good manners, and as Muslims we should follow in his footsteps.
Wow! Thanks for the great reply.

Peace be unto you.
Reply

sister herb
11-22-2009, 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by sudais1
You are an infidel, your kafir.
Be Careful who you call a Kafir

"As to those who reject Faith, It is the same to them Whether thou warn them Or do not warn them; They will not believe." The Holy Quran, 02:06 Al Baqarah.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali's commentary: Kufr, Kafara, Kafir, and derivative forms of the word, imply a deliberate rejection of Faith as opposed to a mistaken idea of Allah or faith, which is not consistent with an ernest desire to see the truth. Where there is sch desire, the Grace and Mercy of Allah gives guidance. But that guidance is not efficacious when it is deliberately rejected, and the possibility of rejection follows from the grant of free will. The consequence of the rejection is that spiritual faculties become dead or impervious to better influence.

Be careful who you call Kafir because only Allah knows who is truly a rejector and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to "sentence" a person to the Hellfire.

We must always maintain courtesy, diplomacy and a never-dying zeal to convey the message to others no matter how discouraging or useless it may seem - don't give up on a non-muslim because most people are good people who simply need a break from the anti-Islamic propaganda around them.

The Fastest Way to Leave Islam

It is always safest to assume that a non-muslim has been misguided, misinformed and fed lies and misconceptions about Islam and Muslims - don't jump to calling him a Kafir. Remove the name-calling from your articles and websites - wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry - name-calling, especially wrongly branding someone as 'evil', 'kafr' and 'manifestation of satan' - GHEEBOT - could entail dire consequences for us on Judgement Day.

Perhaps there is no faster way to leave Islam than by calling other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination.

About calling other Muslims "kafir," we read the following hadith: It is reported on the authority of Ibn `Umar that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever). [Muslim]

Therefore, if you call other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination, you could find that you have left Islam, according to the words of the Prophet (s.a.w.), in less than a second.

Waste no time debating what a good Muslim should be. Be one!

Guiding a Non-Muslim to Islam only possible by the Grace of God. Our job is to help others understand Islam - that is our basic duty. And only then inshallah, will non-muslims move in the direction of becoming one of us. We must remain positive, open-minded and generous in our efforts to convey the true message.

You cannot encourage a non-muslim to be understanding and open-minded if you yourself are hot-tempered and hurling accusations at him/her. No non-muslim is going to respect you and it will certainly reflect badly on Islam if a Muslim, a representative of Islam, is narrow-minded.

I pray to Allah that we develop patience and sincerity in our efforts to bring about more tolerance in this world. Remember....every human being, regardless of whether he/she is born to Muslim or Non-Muslim parents, is born innocent and pure...it is society that influences him/her to stray from Islam and just as a person can stray, he/she can revert back and YOU can help this process.

We have a very important and sensitive role to play. We are the trusted Ummah of the Rasool, a servant of God...it has been made our duty and our obligation to pass on the pure, unadulterated truth - make honest and full use of this honourable task.
Just as reminding.
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Italianguy
11-22-2009, 05:13 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Just as reminding.
Thanks for the reply. As a Christian we are told that we have no right to judge another. That is left to God to decide.

Some cite Matthew 7:1 as proof that we should do no judging whatsoever: "Judge not, that you be not judged." Here, the Greek word for "judge" is krino, meaning to condemn, avenge, ****, sentence, or levy a punishment. Christ plainly says that if we condemn others, we will be condemned ourselves. Dangerous territory indeed!


Thanks again and God be with you.
Reply

Woodrow
11-22-2009, 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
I have a question.

Am i as a Christian considerd an "Infadel"?

If am am please tell me why. If I am not please tell me who is and why.

Thanks, and God be with you.
Going back to the original and actual definition of the word infidel as the word was coined by the Crusaders, it refers to a non-Catholic. The word was first used by the Pope and was first used in it's Latin form of "In Fidalis" (Non Faithful) the Church taught that it was obligatory to kill or Convert the "In Fidalis." so I guess if you are not Roman Catholic you are as much of an infidal as us Muslims.

We call non-Mulsims Kafir. Which is no more derogatory then saying Non-Muslim.
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Khaldun
11-22-2009, 10:19 AM
:sl:

Id like to remind members that it is not against Islaam to call non muslims Kuffar nor Mushriks. It is not a degrading term [what is degrading is the kufr or shirk they have choosen for themselves].

Allah calls non muslims kafir and mushrik in the Qur'aan so as muslims we should not make excuses and say lets use another term.

Judging a person to be a kafir or mushrik is not the same thing as saying this person will go to hell or heaven, he might repent. But we judge concerning what is apperent to us, if we see a person saying I am hindu then we say you are a mushrik and kafir etc.
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Italianguy
11-22-2009, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Going back to the original and actual definition of the word infidel as the word was coined by the Crusaders, it refers to a non-Catholic. The word was first used by the Pope and was first used in it's Latin form of "In Fidalis" (Non Faithful) the Church taught that it was obligatory to kill or Convert the "In Fidalis." so I guess if you are not Roman Catholic you are as much of an infidal as us Muslims.

We call non-Mulsims Kafir. Which is no more derogatory then saying Non-Muslim.
No i am not a Roman Catholic, My Nonno and Nonna (grandfather and grandmother) where Roman Catholic but most in the family are Protestant now. All of my family in Italy are Roman catholic still or Orthadox Christian. So i guess i am an Infadel. My lineage goes back to a high cast Roman blood line. Supposedly we served somewhere in Ceaser's government.


Thanks and God bless.
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ardianto
11-22-2009, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
So i guess i am an Infadel.
No, no, no. Don't call yourself as 'infidel' or 'kafir'.
These words are inappropriate words and usually used for insult someone.
Do not insult yourself, okay ?
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Supreme
11-22-2009, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
No, no, no. Don't call yourself as 'infidel' or 'kafir'.
These words are inappropriate words and usually used for insult someone.
Do not insult yourself, okay ?
But earlier posts have said the word isn't derogatory.
Reply

Italianguy
11-22-2009, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
No, no, no. Don't call yourself as 'infidel' or 'kafir'.
These words are inappropriate words and usually used for insult someone.
Do not insult yourself, okay ?
Okay i won't. Thank you. and God be with you.
Reply

Woodrow
11-22-2009, 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
No, no, no. Don't call yourself as 'infidel' or 'kafir'.
These words are inappropriate words and usually used for insult someone.
Do not insult yourself, okay ?
While it would be derogatory to call a Muslim Kafir(non-Muslim) there is nothing derogatory in calling a Non-Muslim Kafir as Kafir simply means non-Muslim. So if a person is known to be non-Muslim, such as being a Christian, Jew or other we an call them Kafir (using Italianguy as an example) There is nothing derogatory if we call Italianguy a Christian, non-Muslim or Kafir. However, out of mutual respect we can respect his wishes as to which he desires to be called.

I kind of like being called an Infidel which under the actual meaning of the word Infidel means "Not Roman Catholic" It was the early movies of the Western World that had Muslims calling Christians Infidels. The Arab Muslims never used the word infidel, that was the result of "Hollywood"
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ardianto
11-22-2009, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
But earlier posts have said the word isn't derogatory.
The words 'infidel' or 'kafir are not derogatory if these word are used in interfaith discussion for explain religion's perspectives. However, these words frequently used for insult someone in other religion and even for insult someone in same religion.

Read a post above, someone said "You are an infidel, your kafir" to Italianguy.
Maybe that post didn't offend Italianguy, but that was really offend me.
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Woodrow
11-22-2009, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
The words 'infidel' or 'kafir are not derogatory if these word are used in interfaith discussion for explain religion's perspectives. However, these words frequently used for insult someone in other religion and even for insult someone in same religion.

Read a post above, someone said "You are an infidel, your kafir" to Italianguy.
Maybe that post didn't offend Italianguy, but that was really offend me.
:sl:

The tone and intent of a sentence can make even an innocent statement derogatory. I see your point there. the wording itself was not derogatory but it is easy for a person to believe the intent was derogatory.

Anything when used in an accusatory manner can come across as derogatory even nonsense words can be derogatory.

"You are an apple, your fruit" could be derogatory if said as an accusation. Even though it is true. While an apple is a fruit, if fruit has negative connotations and the user is using the word because of the negative, it would b derogatory..
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Michael_S
11-22-2009, 05:37 PM
I think Kafir has been used in more than one way. Historically, it has been used to describe any non-Muslim, like above.

The root word kafara, in Arabic, means to cover or conceal.

In the Quran, Allah uses it to describe those people who try to cover or conceal the truth. In this sense, it is only those who recognize the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as truthful, and then reject that and go about trying to undermine his message, who are referred to as kafirs.

In this sense, I don't think I was a kafir, before I became Muslim, because I had not yet even understood Islam. I was a Christian, and a Mushrik (polytheist), but I don't think I would say I was a kafir, and Allah knows best.
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AlHoda
11-22-2009, 05:50 PM
Well, I really don't befriend non-muslims. It is nothing personal but I myself can get easily influenced. I know I shouldn't so I watch out. I don't hate non-muslims but I don't love them either. I am trying to be honest, butthat doesn't mean that I should treat you in a bad way.

:)
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Uthman
11-22-2009, 05:54 PM
:salamext:

Originally Posted by Michael_S
I was a Christian, and a Mushrik (polytheist), but I don't think I would say I was a kafir, and Allah knows best.
Brother Michael_S, your reversion story sounds very interesting. Would you care to post it in this thread? :)
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Supreme
11-22-2009, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by AlHoda
Well, I really don't befriend non-muslims. It is nothing personal but I myself can get easily influenced. I know I shouldn't so I watch out. I don't hate non-muslims but I don't love them either. I am trying to be honest, butthat doesn't mean that I should treat you in a bad way.

:)
I can see where you're coming from, but how influenced can you get if your faith is strong? Surely if you have strong faith, then no one is going to be able to influence your religion?

Take me for example. I have friends from many religions and none. I seldom have any religious debates with them, but when I do, the exact opposite is acheieved- it strengthens my faith and beliefs, it doesn't weaken them or 'influence' me, and I learn about other faiths. It's essentially a win win situation. I think this mentality of yours may be a sign of weak faith (please don't take offense, I'm judging by personal experience and my own personal weak faith. It took me ages to join other faith forums in case my faith would be weakened)- you're frightened to meet people of other faiths unless they completely refute your faith. Don't be! Also, books like the Dawkins Delusion, designed for that exact purpose, should be welcomed by theists, as they can learn, and I thought that book would weaken my faith. Again, exact opposite effect.
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AlHoda
11-22-2009, 06:29 PM
:sl:
I'm kind of interested, you are saying that non-muslism are not kafirs?! I am speaking from an ignorant source, but at least I know that anyone who is not a muslim is a kafir. You can call them what you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they do not accept islam. You can't call a muslim a kaffir ,but no one ever said you can't call a non-muslim a kaffir. It's rather simple, I guess. Correct me if I am wrong. :)
:wa:
May Allah(swt) bless you all.
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AlHoda
11-22-2009, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
I can see where you're coming from, but how influenced can you get if your faith is strong? Surely if you have strong faith, then no one is going to be able to influence your religion?

Take me for example. I have friends from many religions and none. I seldom have any religious debates with them, but when I do, the exact opposite is acheieved- it strengthens my faith and beliefs, it doesn't weaken them or 'influence' me, and I learn about other faiths. It's essentially a win win situation. I think this mentality of yours may be a sign of weak faith (please don't take offense, I'm judging by personal experience and my own personal weak faith. It took me ages to join other faith forums in case my faith would be weakened)- you're frightened to meet people of other faiths unless they completely refute your faith. Don't be! Also, books like the Dawkins Delusion, designed for that exact purpose, should be welcomed by theists, as they can learn, and I thought that book would weaken my faith. Again, exact opposite effect.
Hi, I understand your point of view. In a way you are correct, sometimes I can be weak in faith, and I admit I can be volrunable, but I trying to learn from my lessons. I am just being carefull. There many verses in the Quran where Allah (swt) warns us not to befriend non-muslims.

Surat Al Nisa
Verse 89.

89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
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Woodrow
11-22-2009, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by AlHoda
:sl:
I'm kind of interested, you are saying that non-muslism are not kafirs?! I am speaking from an ignorant source, but at least I know that anyone who is not a muslim is a kafir. You can call them what you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they do not accept islam. You can't call a muslim a kaffir ,but no one ever said you can't call a non-muslim a kaffir. It's rather simple, I guess. Correct me if I am wrong. :)
:wa:
May Allah(swt) bless you all.
There is nothing wrong in calling a non-Muslim Kafir. However, we can have wrong intents in doing so. If the non-Muslim does not speak Arabic and does not know the meaning of Kafir, would it not make more sense to call them a non-Muslim in their language, so they will know what we mean. Why would we want to call them Kafir, if they do not know what Kafir means. Non-Muslim does mean Kafir.
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Supreme
11-22-2009, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by AlHoda
Hi, I understand your point of view. In a way you are correct, sometimes I can be weak in faith, and I admit I can be volrunable, but I trying to learn from my lessons. I am just being carefull. There many verses in the Quran where Allah (swt) warns us not to befriend non-muslims.

Surat Al Nisa
Verse 89.

89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

That verse pre-supposes that some Muslims who befriend non Muslims will see their own religion as false and commit apostasy. It is a rather paranoid verse in that sense. Are there any other verses in the Quran that say similar things?
Reply

Woodrow
11-22-2009, 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by AlHoda
Hi, I understand your point of view. In a way you are correct, sometimes I can be weak in faith, and I admit I can be volrunable, but I trying to learn from my lessons. I am just being carefull. There many verses in the Quran where Allah (swt) warns us not to befriend non-muslims.

Surat Al Nisa
Verse 89.

89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
:sl:

Keep in mind the word Wali does not mean friend in the English definition of friend although most translations use the word friend. Wali is much deeper than friend and carries with it the concepts of protector, teacher, confident, Brother/Sister in Faith etc. The Arabic word that comes closest to the English meaning of friend is:
الصديق

Haleeq, no where in the Qur'an can I find any ayyat forbidding us to have a non-Muslim as a Haleeq.
Reply

glo
11-22-2009, 08:06 PM
I guess we all have to accept that, whatever we believe or whichever religion we follow, we are 'un-believers', infidels or kafirs in somebody eyes ...
Better not to worry too much about what people think, but more about how God sees us.
Reply

Woodrow
11-22-2009, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I guess we all have to accept that, whatever we believe or whichever religion we follow, we are 'un-believers', infidels or kafirs in somebody eyes ...
Better not to worry too much about what people think, but more about how God sees us.
I think Ambrose Bierce said it best in his definition of Infidel.

INFIDEL: To a New Yorker it means somebody who lives in Constantinople to a Turk it means somebody who lives in New York.
Reply

Italianguy
11-22-2009, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by AlHoda
Well, I really don't befriend non-muslims. It is nothing personal but I myself can get easily influenced. I know I shouldn't so I watch out. I don't hate non-muslims but I don't love them either. I am trying to be honest, butthat doesn't mean that I should treat you in a bad way.

:)
You are being freindly enough just to say that. But if you are meeting Christians that are condemming you or not treating you with the utmost respect, distance yourself from them.

I never look to influence as I am supposed to, God gave us free will. I only try to answer to the best of my ability to give my Muslim brothers and sisters accurate answers about Christ to the best of my ability. If one does not want to hear it or does not agree that is fine.

If you ever have questions about Christianity I only ask that you ask someone like myself or A Christian as I don't take information about Islam from Christians only Muslims.

Thanks for replying and may God bring you peace and His blessings.
Reply

Muslim Woman
11-23-2009, 03:30 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Woodrow
.. Why would we want to call them Kafir, if they do not know what Kafir means. Non-Muslim does mean Kafir.
some Muslims use the word kafir to degrade non-Muslims or show their hatred towards them . I think , if anyone wants to use this word , s/he should use it with the meaning in bracket .
Reply

Italianguy
11-23-2009, 10:53 PM
I think we went the wrong direction here. The word Kafir may or may not be a degrading or derogatory term, it all depends how different people interpret it. I was looking to see how a Muslim views a Christian. As I read my Qur'an i find some beautiful and heartfelt teachings. I also, after tallying answers from members of the 4 different Islamic sites as well as reading in the Qur'an, see conflicting interpretations of some of the verses or chapters(not unlike some Christians do), Our Bible and your Qur'an have at least one thing in common...Neither is to be interpreted how we want to see it! These word'(s) of God are not subject to interpretation or argument. We should not be putting these books into debate. We should follow God's teachings and LAW.

We (Muslims and Christians) spend too much time debating, arguing and generalizing each other and our faiths. My Lord tells me to love everyone as if they were my brother, and I no matter what, will do so even if another faith says I can't. I always tell my Muslim friends as well as Christian friends that if I were put in a situation that would take my life, (God willing that doesn’t happen), I would give my life to save a Muslim brother or sister as much I would a Christian. All faithful Christians would do the same; I’m not the exception.

I My Muslim friend (and employee) told me the day he doesn’t understand why I would be willing to die for him, not being a Muslim brother believing in the same faith? I said to him put yourself in this situation; I and Mohammad and his family are out to dinner and someone in the parking lot decides they want to rob us and brandish a gun. He tells us that he wants all of the money we have and when we don’t give enough he says he will shoot Mohammad and or his children…I would take his place before he could answer, because I love him and his family, he is a great friend but I also tell him I would do this for a homeless man nobody knows.

I will not fight or argue with anybody. I also know that we Christians and Muslims alike have no right to judge another. The Bible says;

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Mathew 7:1-5 NIV)


To God belongeth the Mystery of the heavens and the earth, and the decision of the hour of judgment, as the twinkling of an eye, or even quicker, for God hath power over all things.
Islam
The Holy Qur'an Sura XVI v 77



We have no right yet we as humans always do. God the creator has the only right of judgment. In the end of times as we know it, at least I can say, I quarrel with none, and help all that I come in contact with, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, and especially Atheist. I spread God’s word and his existence to all I come in contact with me, and give all I can to the poor and needy, I need not what this earth has to offer, I have one goal and that is that everyone I see or talks to at least knows God is the creator whether they choose Islam or Christianity.

We as humans have an inherent need to believe in something. Even Atheists believe there is no God, that in itself is a belief system, It’s funny they always say they don’t believe in organized religion, yet they have teachers, professors, books to teach what they believe and even claim to have Atheistic Priests! So they believe, they are just misguided and hard hearted. We Christians and Christians should not judge them, but teach them and show them there is a creator and that creator is not a “germ” or Alien space people. We should teach them that God (Allah) is our creator and owe him his glory.


I love all of you and would give my life for any of you! Go with God. May God bless you with all that you need, some that you want and grant entry to heaven to all that believe in Him.

God bless.
Reply

czgibson
11-23-2009, 11:26 PM
Greetings Italianguy,

I know you're not here to argue, but I think you need to adjust your understanding of atheism. I don't know where you've got some of the ideas in your post from.

Originally Posted by Italianguy
We as humans have an inherent need to believe in something. Even Atheists believe there is no God, that in itself is a belief system,
No, it's a belief. There's a big difference.

It’s funny they always say they don’t believe in organized religion, yet they have teachers, professors, books to teach what they believe and even claim to have Atheistic Priests!
I've never heard of an atheist priest. I've also never heard of a teacher of atheism as a subject - it's not something that needs to be taught, as people can come to believe it purely by thinking.

So they believe, they are just misguided and hard hearted.
If you say so. :)

We Christians and Christians should not judge them,
I think you just did...

but teach them and show them there is a creator and that creator is not a “germ” or Alien space people.
Do you think this is what all atheists believe? Why?

I love all of you and would give my life for any of you! Go with God. May God bless you with all that you need, some that you want and grant entry to heaven to all that believe in Him.

God bless.
It looks like you mean well. Good luck to you, sir. :)

Peace
Reply

Italianguy
11-23-2009, 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings Italianguy,

I know you're not here to argue, but I think you need to adjust your understanding of atheism. I don't know where you've got some of the ideas in your post from.



No, it's a belief. There's a big difference.



I've never heard of an atheist priest. I've also never heard of a teacher of atheism as a subject - it's not something that needs to be taught, as people can come to believe it purely by thinking.




If you say so. :)



I think you just did...



Do you think this is what all atheists believe? Why?



It looks like you mean well. Good luck to you, sir. :)

Peace
I stand corrected. I am sorry, it looks as if i did judge you, forgive me.
I only ask that you look to God for fulfillment. I am only saying what i have been taught about atheism. I have an article i will post for you later. Thanks for the reply and God be with you my freind.
Reply

YusufNoor
11-23-2009, 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
I think we went the wrong direction here. The word Kafir may or may not be a degrading or derogatory term, it all depends how different people interpret it. I was looking to see how a Muslim views a Christian. As I read my Qur'an i find some beautiful and heartfelt teachings. I also, after tallying answers from members of the 4 different Islamic sites as well as reading in the Qur'an, see conflicting interpretations of some of the verses or chapters(not unlike some Christians do),

there are various levels of kuf'r. not believing is one, rejecting is another and fighting against the Truth is another. there are more, just making a point here.

Our Bible and your Qur'an have at least one thing in common...Neither is to be interpreted how we want to see it! These word'(s) of God are not subject to interpretation or argument.

only one is STILL the Word of God. the Christian Bible is made up of writings of unknown origin for the most part, while the vast majority of exists as only copies of copies of copies of copies of the original writings made by unskilled copyists. thus, the copies contained errors which were made worse when THOSE copies [containing errors] were copied, and so on. that, along with the MANY contradictions in the Gospels alone render the New Testament into a set of dawah booklets, each seemingly aimed at a different audience. MOST DEFINITELY NOT the Word of God, but simply the word of man.

we should not be putting these books into debate. We should follow God's teachings and LAW.

each Prophet in his time revealed God's laws, the Last was the Prophet Muhammad. and you are correct in that we should obey God's Message and Laws as delivered by that Last of the Prophets.

We (Muslims and Christians) spend too much time debating, arguing and generalizing each other and our faiths. My Lord tells me to love everyone as if they were my brother, and I no matter what, will do so even if another faith says I can't. I always tell my Muslim friends as well as Christian friends that if I were put in a situation that would take my life, (God willing that doesn’t happen), I would give my life to save a Muslim brother or sister as much I would a Christian. All faithful Christians would do the same; I’m not the exception.

I My Muslim friend (and employee) told me the day he doesn’t understand why I would be willing to die for him, not being a Muslim brother believing in the same faith? I said to him put yourself in this situation; I and Mohammad and his family are out to dinner and someone in the parking lot decides they want to rob us and brandish a gun. He tells us that he wants all of the money we have and when we don’t give enough he says he will shoot Mohammad and or his children…I would take his place before he could answer, because I love him and his family, he is a great friend but I also tell him I would do this for a homeless man nobody knows.

I will not fight or argue with anybody. I also know that we Christians and Muslims alike have no right to judge another. The Bible says;

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Mathew 7:1-5 NIV)


To God belongeth the Mystery of the heavens and the earth, and the decision of the hour of judgment, as the twinkling of an eye, or even quicker, for God hath power over all things.
Islam
The Holy Qur'an Sura XVI v 77



We have no right yet we as humans always do. God the creator has the only right of judgment. In the end of times as we know it, at least I can say, I quarrel with none, and help all that I come in contact with, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, and especially Atheist. I spread God’s word and his existence to all I come in contact with me, and give all I can to the poor and needy, I need not what this earth has to offer, I have one goal and that is that everyone I see or talks to at least knows God is the creator whether they choose Islam or Christianity.

God indeed DOES have the Right of Judgment, but to reject His Laws IS Kuf'r. Christianity is indeed kuf'r

We as humans have an inherent need to believe in something. Even Atheists believe there is no God, that in itself is a belief system, It’s funny they always say they don’t believe in organized religion, yet they have teachers, professors, books to teach what they believe and even claim to have Atheistic Priests! So they believe, they are just misguided and hard hearted. We Christians and Christians should not judge them, but teach them and show them there is a creator and that creator is not a “germ” or Alien space people. We should teach them that God (Allah) is our creator and owe him his glory.


I love all of you and would give my life for any of you! Go with God. May God bless you with all that you need, some that you want and grant entry to heaven to all that believe in Him.

even Shaytaan, the accursed, believes in God, he just thinks that he knows better than Him. so merely believing must be backed up by obeying. Correct belief and submission to God's Laws.

God bless.
we don't judge as to who will be in heaven or the hellfire. God is Maliki Yawmid Din, the Only Owner of the Day of Judgment. to reject the Laws and Message of Rabbil Alamin, the Creator, Cherish-er, Sustain-er and Healer of All that has been created IS unbelief. and unbelief is kufr.

:wa:
Reply

sudais1
11-26-2009, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Just as reminding.
Stop trying to sugar coat the religion for him, he's a non believer, hes kafir.
Reply

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