Am I an "Infidel" ?

[Woodrow]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

I have a question.

Am i as a Christian considerd an "Infadel"?

If am am please tell me why. If I am not please tell me who is and why.

Thanks, and God be with you.

Going back to the original and actual definition of the word infidel as the word was coined by the Crusaders, it refers to a non-Catholic. The word was first used by the Pope and was first used in it's Latin form of "In Fidalis" (Non Faithful) the Church taught that it was obligatory to kill or Convert the "In Fidalis." so I guess if you are not Roman Catholic you are as much of an infidal as us Muslims.

We call non-Mulsims Kafir. Which is no more derogatory then saying Non-Muslim.

 

[Khaldun]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?



Id like to remind members that it is not against Islaam to call non muslims Kuffar nor Mushriks. It is not a degrading term [what is degrading is the kufr or shirk they have choosen for themselves].

Allah calls non muslims kafir and mushrik in the Qur'aan so as muslims we should not make excuses and say lets use another term.

Judging a person to be a kafir or mushrik is not the same thing as saying this person will go to hell or heaven, he might repent. But we judge concerning what is apperent to us, if we see a person saying I am hindu then we say you are a mushrik and kafir etc.

 

[Italianguy]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

Going back to the original and actual definition of the word infidel as the word was coined by the Crusaders, it refers to a non-Catholic. The word was first used by the Pope and was first used in it's Latin form of "In Fidalis" (Non Faithful) the Church taught that it was obligatory to kill or Convert the "In Fidalis." so I guess if you are not Roman Catholic you are as much of an infidal as us Muslims.

We call non-Mulsims Kafir. Which is no more derogatory then saying Non-Muslim.

No i am not a Roman Catholic, My Nonno and Nonna (grandfather and grandmother) where Roman Catholic but most in the family are Protestant now. All of my family in Italy are Roman catholic still or Orthadox Christian. So i guess i am an Infadel. My lineage goes back to a high cast Roman blood line. Supposedly we served somewhere in Ceaser's government.


Thanks and God bless.

 

[ardianto]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

So i guess i am an Infadel.

No, no, no. Don't call yourself as 'infidel' or 'kafir'.
These words are inappropriate words and usually used for insult someone.
Do not insult yourself, okay ?

 

[Supreme]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

No, no, no. Don't call yourself as 'infidel' or 'kafir'.
These words are inappropriate words and usually used for insult someone.
Do not insult yourself, okay ?

But earlier posts have said the word isn't derogatory.

 

[Italianguy]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

No, no, no. Don't call yourself as 'infidel' or 'kafir'.
These words are inappropriate words and usually used for insult someone.
Do not insult yourself, okay ?

Okay i won't. Thank you. and God be with you.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

No, no, no. Don't call yourself as 'infidel' or 'kafir'.
These words are inappropriate words and usually used for insult someone.
Do not insult yourself, okay ?

While it would be derogatory to call a Muslim Kafir(non-Muslim) there is nothing derogatory in calling a Non-Muslim Kafir as Kafir simply means non-Muslim. So if a person is known to be non-Muslim, such as being a Christian, Jew or other we an call them Kafir (using Italianguy as an example) There is nothing derogatory if we call Italianguy a Christian, non-Muslim or Kafir. However, out of mutual respect we can respect his wishes as to which he desires to be called.

I kind of like being called an Infidel which under the actual meaning of the word Infidel means "Not Roman Catholic" It was the early movies of the Western World that had Muslims calling Christians Infidels. The Arab Muslims never used the word infidel, that was the result of "Hollywood"

 

[ardianto]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

But earlier posts have said the word isn't derogatory.

The words 'infidel' or 'kafir are not derogatory if these word are used in interfaith discussion for explain religion's perspectives. However, these words frequently used for insult someone in other religion and even for insult someone in same religion.

Read a post above, someone said "You are an infidel, your kafir" to Italianguy.
Maybe that post didn't offend Italianguy, but that was really offend me.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

The words 'infidel' or 'kafir are not derogatory if these word are used in interfaith discussion for explain religion's perspectives. However, these words frequently used for insult someone in other religion and even for insult someone in same religion.

Read a post above, someone said "You are an infidel, your kafir" to Italianguy.
Maybe that post didn't offend Italianguy, but that was really offend me.

The tone and intent of a sentence can make even an innocent statement derogatory. I see your point there. the wording itself was not derogatory but it is easy for a person to believe the intent was derogatory.

Anything when used in an accusatory manner can come across as derogatory even nonsense words can be derogatory.

"You are an apple, your fruit" could be derogatory if said as an accusation. Even though it is true. While an apple is a fruit, if fruit has negative connotations and the user is using the word because of the negative, it would b derogatory..

 

[Michael_S]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

I think Kafir has been used in more than one way. Historically, it has been used to describe any non-Muslim, like above.

The root word kafara, in Arabic, means to cover or conceal.

In the Quran, Allah uses it to describe those people who try to cover or conceal the truth. In this sense, it is only those who recognize the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as truthful, and then reject that and go about trying to undermine his message, who are referred to as kafirs.

In this sense, I don't think I was a kafir, before I became Muslim, because I had not yet even understood Islam. I was a Christian, and a Mushrik (polytheist), but I don't think I would say I was a kafir, and Allah knows best.

 

[AlHoda]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

Well, I really don't befriend non-muslims. It is nothing personal but I myself can get easily influenced. I know I shouldn't so I watch out. I don't hate non-muslims but I don't love them either. I am trying to be honest, butthat doesn't mean that I should treat you in a bad way.

 

[Uthman]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

:salamext:

I was a Christian, and a Mushrik (polytheist), but I don't think I would say I was a kafir, and Allah knows best.

Brother Michael_S, your reversion story sounds very interesting. Would you care to post it in this thread?

 

[Supreme]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

Well, I really don't befriend non-muslims. It is nothing personal but I myself can get easily influenced. I know I shouldn't so I watch out. I don't hate non-muslims but I don't love them either. I am trying to be honest, butthat doesn't mean that I should treat you in a bad way.

I can see where you're coming from, but how influenced can you get if your faith is strong? Surely if you have strong faith, then no one is going to be able to influence your religion?

Take me for example. I have friends from many religions and none. I seldom have any religious debates with them, but when I do, the exact opposite is acheieved- it strengthens my faith and beliefs, it doesn't weaken them or 'influence' me, and I learn about other faiths. It's essentially a win win situation. I think this mentality of yours may be a sign of weak faith (please don't take offense, I'm judging by personal experience and my own personal weak faith. It took me ages to join other faith forums in case my faith would be weakened)- you're frightened to meet people of other faiths unless they completely refute your faith. Don't be! Also, books like the Dawkins Delusion, designed for that exact purpose, should be welcomed by theists, as they can learn, and I thought that book would weaken my faith. Again, exact opposite effect.

 

[AlHoda]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?


I'm kind of interested, you are saying that non-muslism are not kafirs?! I am speaking from an ignorant source, but at least I know that anyone who is not a muslim is a kafir. You can call them what you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they do not accept islam. You can't call a muslim a kaffir ,but no one ever said you can't call a non-muslim a kaffir. It's rather simple, I guess. Correct me if I am wrong.
:wa:
May Allah(swt) bless you all.

 

[AlHoda]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

I can see where you're coming from, but how influenced can you get if your faith is strong? Surely if you have strong faith, then no one is going to be able to influence your religion?

Take me for example. I have friends from many religions and none. I seldom have any religious debates with them, but when I do, the exact opposite is acheieved- it strengthens my faith and beliefs, it doesn't weaken them or 'influence' me, and I learn about other faiths. It's essentially a win win situation. I think this mentality of yours may be a sign of weak faith (please don't take offense, I'm judging by personal experience and my own personal weak faith. It took me ages to join other faith forums in case my faith would be weakened)- you're frightened to meet people of other faiths unless they completely refute your faith. Don't be! Also, books like the Dawkins Delusion, designed for that exact purpose, should be welcomed by theists, as they can learn, and I thought that book would weaken my faith. Again, exact opposite effect.

Hi, I understand your point of view. In a way you are correct, sometimes I can be weak in faith, and I admit I can be volrunable, but I trying to learn from my lessons. I am just being carefull. There many verses in the Quran where Allah (swt) warns us not to befriend non-muslims.

Surat Al Nisa
Verse 89.

89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

I'm kind of interested, you are saying that non-muslism are not kafirs?! I am speaking from an ignorant source, but at least I know that anyone who is not a muslim is a kafir. You can call them what you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they do not accept islam. You can't call a muslim a kaffir ,but no one ever said you can't call a non-muslim a kaffir. It's rather simple, I guess. Correct me if I am wrong.
:wa:
May Allah(swt) bless you all.

There is nothing wrong in calling a non-Muslim Kafir. However, we can have wrong intents in doing so. If the non-Muslim does not speak Arabic and does not know the meaning of Kafir, would it not make more sense to call them a non-Muslim in their language, so they will know what we mean. Why would we want to call them Kafir, if they do not know what Kafir means. Non-Muslim does mean Kafir.

 

[Supreme]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

Hi, I understand your point of view. In a way you are correct, sometimes I can be weak in faith, and I admit I can be volrunable, but I trying to learn from my lessons. I am just being carefull. There many verses in the Quran where Allah (swt) warns us not to befriend non-muslims.

Surat Al Nisa
Verse 89.

89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

That verse pre-supposes that some Muslims who befriend non Muslims will see their own religion as false and commit apostasy. It is a rather paranoid verse in that sense. Are there any other verses in the Quran that say similar things?

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

Hi, I understand your point of view. In a way you are correct, sometimes I can be weak in faith, and I admit I can be volrunable, but I trying to learn from my lessons. I am just being carefull. There many verses in the Quran where Allah (swt) warns us not to befriend non-muslims.

Surat Al Nisa
Verse 89.

89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

Keep in mind the word Wali does not mean friend in the English definition of friend although most translations use the word friend. Wali is much deeper than friend and carries with it the concepts of protector, teacher, confident, Brother/Sister in Faith etc. The Arabic word that comes closest to the English meaning of friend is:
الصديق

Haleeq, no where in the Qur'an can I find any ayyat forbidding us to have a non-Muslim as a Haleeq.

 

[glo]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

I guess we all have to accept that, whatever we believe or whichever religion we follow, we are 'un-believers', infidels or kafirs in somebody eyes ...
Better not to worry too much about what people think, but more about how God sees us.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Am I an "Infadel" ?

I guess we all have to accept that, whatever we believe or whichever religion we follow, we are 'un-believers', infidels or kafirs in somebody eyes ...
Better not to worry too much about what people think, but more about how God sees us.

I think Ambrose Bierce said it best in his definition of Infidel.

INFIDEL: To a New Yorker it means somebody who lives in Constantinople to a Turk it means somebody who lives in New York.