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Shahreaz
01-06-2010, 07:19 PM
Non-Jews, in particular Muslims and Christians, should be aware of how Jesus (peace be upon him) and his blessed mother Maryam are depicted in the Jewish "holy" book Talmud. Mysteriously, Talmud is the least discussed/exposed religious book in the public domain and on the Jewish controlled media. Exposure of Talmud to a non-Jew is punishable to death according to the Rabbinical edict. On the other hand, the Jewish-controlled media mocks Islam and Christianity 24/7 and get away with impunity. The Talmudic mentality is manifested in their arrogance. please review the materials provided below before drawing any conclusion:

Documentary by Reverend Ted Pike:

The other Israel: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...00254881054584

Here is list of some excerpts and authoritative documents on Talmud and Judaism:

Code:
http://revisionisthistory.org/wire1.html
Part I: Jesus and the Talmud

A Rejoinder by Michael A. Hoffman II

Author's Note: Here is part one of my rejoinder to a ridiculous pamphlet published last February by the giant Zionist thought control organization, "ADL." The ADL pamphlet is a farrago of misdirection, fallacy and disinformation. It is demolished with ease and I confess to being somewhat surprised that the ADL's tissue of hilarity, masquerading as scholarly rebuttal, was the best the ADL could conjure in reply to my book, Judaism's Strange Gods. I advise wealthy Zionists to withhold their donations to the ADL until such time as it offers at least a half-way credible riposte, in place of the pile of laughable linguistic pirouettes which it has proffered thus far in the debate concerning the pornographic contents of this rabbinic hate literature; a debate the ADL and any other rabbinic apologist, can only lose.

The ADL, headed by Abraham Foxman, is based in New York and has a multi-million dollar budget, a large staff of spies and researchers and automatic entry to the national and international establishment media. The ADL stated in a nationwide press release issued Feb. 20, 2003 that "the foremost distorters of Talmudic texts include...Michael A. Hoffman II."

The ADL has written a shoddy and poorly researched pamphlet, "The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics" to a sorry attempt to refute my book Judaism's Strange Gods. In its section entitled "Jesus and Balaam," the ADL asserts, "...anti-Talmud writers often attempt to portray the Talmud as demeaning the figure of Jesus. In the opinion of most scholars the Talmud only refers to Jesus in a handful of places and though these references may not reflect the courteous ecumenicism of the modern world, neither are they particularly inflammatory."

Sanhedrin 107B of the Babylonian Talmud: "Jesus... stood up a brick to symbolize an idol and bowed down to it. Jesus performed magic and incited the people of Israel and led them astray."

Source: The Babylonian Talmud, volume 21, Tractate Sanhedrin, Part VII, translated into English by Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz, copyright 1999 by the Israel Institute for Talmudic Publications; published by Random House in New York.

Quoting now from another Talmud passage about Jesus, Sanhedrin 43A: "On Passover Eve they hanged Jesus of Nazareth. He practiced sorcery, incited and led Israel astray...Was Jesus of Nazareth deserving of a search for an argument in his favor? He was an enticer and the Torah says, 'You shall not spare, nor shall you conceal him!"

The Talmud in this passage decrees that Jesus got what he deserved when he was executed on Passover Eve. The Talmud says that he did not have any mercy shown him --"You shall not spare him" the rabbis are quoted by the Talmud as having decreed.

There is another interesting aspect to Sanhedrin 43a. Nowadays, in deference to "Judaic sensibilities," movies, TV and literature are compelled to put the onus of blame for the execution of Jesus on the Romans. But the Talmud in Sanhedrin 43a makes no mention of any Roman guilt for the execution of Christ. The rabbinic commentary in Sanhedrin 43a states that out of deference to the Romans' concern for Jesus' welfare, a pretense of an argument on Christ's behalf had to be mounted by the Sanhedrin because Jesus had "close connections with the non-Jewish authorities who were interested in his acquittal."

The ADL must have a very low opinion of the intelligence of the average American. Let us recall that the Talmud, in Tractate Baba Kamma 113a, decrees that a Jew may lie to a gentile. The ADL uses the unique and intimidating position it occupies as America's national thought cop and adjunct of the corporate media, to lie about what the Talmud actually says about Jesus. The ADL is too dishonest to quote directly from the Talmudic passages about Jesus.

The quotes I present are taken directly from the writings about Jesus in the Talmud. I freely quote these passages because I have nothing to hide or fear from them, since they offer documentary evidence which upholds my contention concerning the bigoted, anti-Christ contents of the Talmud.

The ADL knows that if their staff "experts" publicly quoted the actual Talmudic statements about Christ, they would instantly reveal the institutionalized hatred and blasphemy of Jesus Christ that is formally enshrined within the religion of Judaism. Hence, the ADL dares not actually quote the Talmudic writings about Jesus.

Instead, the ADL merely talks about what it claims is and is not in the Talmud. Why doesn't the ADL quote the passages in Talmud Tractates Sanhedrin and Gittin? Because they cannot. If they should do so, their staple fictions would fall by the wayside. Failing to quote directly from what the Talmud says about Jesus Christ is a glaring omission which eloquently testifies to the bankruptcy of the ADL's Talmudic whitewash, and the shoddiness of their pseudo-scholarly "refutation" of Judaism's Strange Gods. The ADL is just too cowardly and intellectually dishonest to quote the Talmud passages about Jesus which it seeks to deny or falsify.

I have quoted from Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 107b, which declares that Jesus bowed down to a brick and worshipped it and that he practiced magic, and from Sanhedrin 43a, which says that it was right to kill Jesus and that he got what he deserved. According to the ADL these consummate examples of rabbinic hatred and contempt for Christ, are "not particularly inflammatory."

The source of Judaic bigotry and hatred for Christ and His Church is in the Talmud. I should like to add that nowhere in the religion of Islam is Christ defamed. In fact, Jesus Christ is upheld as a prophet by the Muslims and His Name is reverenced, as is His Mother, Mary.

To highlight the absurdity of the ADL's response, let us consider the horrible malice found in the anti-Christ Talmud Tractate Gittin 57a. In some censored versions of Gittin 57a, the name of Jesus is rendered as "sinner (or 'sinners') of Israel." The Talmud in Gittin 57a contains a filthy and unbelievably scurrilous attack on Jesus Christ pertaining to a punishment Jesus supposedly underwent after his death. As is its custom, the ADL shies away from actually quoting Gittin 57a. It falls to us to reveal the contents of this ugly and psychotic Talmud section:

"He (the rabbi) then went and raised by incantations the sinners of Israel. He asked them...What is your punishment? They replied: With boiling (in) hot excrement."

The Talmud decrees that Jesus is in hell, being boiled in feces, because he opposed the rabbis. That's what this sick, pornographic, "holy book" of Judaism says about the Christian Savior in Tractate Gittin 57a.

Without daring to cite or refer to Gittin 57a directly, the ADL's convoluted defense of this passage is as follows: "...the Talmud bears much harsher animus toward the Biblical figure of Balaam, the pagan magician who sought to curse the Jews...Rabbinic tradition...describes some of the punishments he (Balaam) may have suffered after his death...a small group of Jewish scholars suggested that in some cases the term Balaam in the Talmud may be a codeword for Jesus...later scholars showed that this suggestion could not be true...anti-Semites have ever since claimed that the true hatred that Judaism possesses for Christianity is expressed in these coded expressions against Balaam found in the Talmud."

But Gittin 57a in the Soncino edition of the Talmud, which the ADL cites as a reputable source (see p. 13 of the ADL pamphlet), refers not to Balaam in this bigoted and hateful passage, but to the "sinners of Israel." It looks as though the comedians in the ADL's vaunted "research department" neglected to concoct a tall-tale explanation for how the coded "sinners of Israel" term is not a reference to Christ. They blustered about "Balaam" at length but forgot to offer any similar exegesis of "sinners of Israel." What a joke!

Gittin 57a in the Soncino edition, with its reference to "sinners of Israel" being "boiled in hot excrement," contains a footnote for the passage, labeled footnote #4. Located at the bottom of the page of Gittin 57a, footnote #4 makes reference to the fact that "sinners of Israel" is indeed a coded reference to Jesus!

The only way the ADL can extricate itself from this sinkhole of its own making, is to posit the notion that the Soncino edition Talmud, edited by Rabbi Isidore Epstein, PhD. and recommended by the ADL itself, is "anti-Semitic." Otherwise, they have contradicted themselves and failed miserably in endeavoring to show that the Talmud does not contain psychotic and despicable insults and attacks on Jesus Christ.

Contrary to the ADL line, it is not an act of prejudice to tell the truth about the contents of the Talmud. Such truth-telling in Judaism's Strange Gods is a legitimate and salutary function of historical and exegetical inquiry and is equally liberating to "frum Yiddin" (Judaics who are enslaved by rigorous observance of rabbinic dictates and traditions), as well as to goyim who are held in thrall to the rabbis by Zionist politicians, media moguls and the hirelings of Judeo-Churchianity.

This ends Part I of Hoffman's Rejoinder to the ADL's pamphlet "The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics."

Caveat: There is the possibility that the ADL may modify or otherwise alter its thoroughly bogus pamphlet as a covert response to the demolition of it herein. Therefore, it should be noted that the preceding part one rejoinder is to the original ADL pamphlet published in February of 2003, and not to any subsequent version they may quietly choose to alter and substitute for it, in order to attempt to salvage whatever may be left of their seriously diminished credibility.

A Documented Exposé of Supremacist Rabbinic Hate Literature

Code:
http://revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
The Truth About the Talmud
A Documented Exposé of Supremacist Rabbinic Hate Literature

By Warrant of John 18:37, Galatians 4:16

Copyright ©2000-2006 by Michael A. Hoffman II All Rights Reserved
Introduction

The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (actually a collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."

The supremacy of the Talmud over the Bible in the Israeli state may also be seen in the case of the black Ethiopian Jews. Ethiopians are very knowledgeable of the Old Testament. However, their religion is so ancient it pre-dates the Scribes' Talmud, of which the Ethiopians have no knowledge. According to the N.Y. Times of Sept. 29, 1992, p.4:

"The problem is that Ethiopian Jewish tradition goes no further than the Bible or Torah; the later Talmud and other commentaries that form the basis of modern traditions never came their way."

Because they are not traffickers in Talmudic tradition, the black Ethiopian Jews are discriminated against and have been forbidden by the Zionists to perform marriages, funerals and other services in the Israeli state.

Rabbi Joseph D. Soloveitchik is regarded as one of the most influential rabbis of the 20th century, the "unchallenged leader" of Orthodox Judaism and the top international authority on halakha (Jewish religious law). Soloveitchik was responsible for instructing and ordaining more than 2,000 rabbis, "an entire generation" of Jewish leadership.

N.Y. Times religion reporter Ari Goldman described the basis of the rabbi's authority:

"Soloveitchik came from a long line of distinguished Talmudic scholars...Until his early 20s, he devoted himself almost exclusively to the study of the Talmud...He came to Yeshiva University's Elchanan Theological Seminary where he remained the pre-eminent teacher in the Talmud...He held the title of Leib Merkin professor of Talmud...sitting with his feet crossed in front of a table bearing an open volume of the Talmud." (N.Y. Times, April 10, 1993, p. 38).

Nowhere does Goldman refer to Soloveitchik's knowledge of the Bible as the basis for being one of the leading authorities on Jewish law.

The rabbi's credentials are all predicated upon his mastery of the Talmud. Other studies are clearly secondary. Britain's Jewish Chronicle of March 26, 1993 states that in religious school (yeshiva), Jews are "devoted to the Talmud to the exclusion of everything else."

The Talmud Nullifies the Bible

The Jewish Scribes claim the Talmud is partly a collection of traditions Moses gave them in oral form. These had not yet been written down in Jesus' time. Christ condemned the traditions of the Mishnah (early Talmud) and those who taught it (Scribes and Pharisees), because the Talmud nullifies the teachings of the Holy Bible.

Shmuel Safrai in The Literature of the Sages Part One (p.164), points out that in chapters 4 and 5 of the Talmud's Gittin Tractate, the Talmud nullifies the Biblical teaching concerning money-lending: "Hillel decreed the prozbul for the betterment of the world. The prozbul is a legal fiction which allows debts to be collected after the Sabbatical year and it was Hillel's intention thereby to overcome the fear that money-lenders had of losing their money."

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.

Unfortunately, due to the abysmal ignorance of our day, the widespread "Judeo-Christian" notion is that the Old Testament is the supreme book of Judaism. But this is not so. The Pharisees teach for doctrine the commandments of rabbis, not God.

The Talmudic commentary on the Bible is their supreme law, and not the Bible itself. That commentary does indeed, as Jesus said, void the laws of God, not uphold them. As students of the Talmud, we know this to be true.

Jewish scholar Hyam Maccoby, in Judaism on Trial, quotes Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph: "Further, without the Talmud, we would not be able to understand passages in the Bible...God has handed this authority to the sages and tradition is a necessity as well as scripture. The Sages also made enactments of their own...anyone who does not study the Talmud cannot understand Scripture."

There is a tiny Jewish sect which makes considerable effort to eschew Talmud and adhere to the Old Testament alone. These are the Karaites, a group which, historically, has been most hated and severely persecuted by orthodox Jewish rabbinate.

To the Mishnah the rabbis later added the Gemara (rabbinical commentaries). Together these comprise the Talmud. There are two versions, the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud.

The Babylonian Talmud is regarded as the authoritative version: "The authority of the Babylonian Talmud is also greater than that of the Jerusalem Talmud. In cases of doubt the former is decisive." (R.C. Musaph-Andriesse, From Torah to Kabbalah: A Basic Introduction to the Writings of Judaism, p. 40).

This study is based on the Jewish-authorized Babylonian Talmud. We have published herein the authenticated sayings of the Jewish Talmud. Look them up for yourself.

We publish the following irrefutable documentation in the hope of liberating all people, including Jewish people, from the corrosive delusions and racism of this Talmudic hate literature, which is the manual of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews the world over.

The implementation by Jewish supremacists of Talmudic hate literature has caused untold suffering throughout history and now, in occupied Palestine, it is used as a justification for the mass murder of Palestinian civilians. The Talmud specifically defines all who are not Jews as non-human animals.
Some Teachings of the Jewish Talmud

Where a Jew Should Do Evil

Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Penalty for Disobeying Rabbis

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status

Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews

Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Insults Against Blessed Mary

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a *****: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Gloats over Christ Dying Young

A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

Jesus in the Talmud:

Horrible Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ

While it is the standard disinformation practice of apologists for the Talmud to deny that it contains any scurrilous references to Jesus Christ, certain Orthodox Jewish organizations are more forthcoming and admit that the Talmud not only mentions Jesus but disparages him (as a sorcerer and a demented sex freak). These orthodox Jewish organizations make this admission perhaps out of the belief that Jewish supremacy is so well-established in the modern world that they need not concern themselves with adverse reactions.

For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following statement, complete with Talmudic citations:

"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene':

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

Code:
http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm
(Lubavitch website) June 20, 2000.

[Note: we have printed and preserved in our files a hard copy of this statement from the Lubavitch"Noah's Covenant Website," as it appeared on their website at http://www.noahide.com ]

on June 20, 2000, in the event that denials are later issued and the statement itself suppressed].

Let us examine further some of these anti-Christ Talmud passages:

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."

Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery: "It is taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry...He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone."

Kallah 51a."The elders were once sitting in the gate when two young lads passed by; one covered his head and the other uncovered his head. Of him who uncovered his head Rabbi Eliezer remarked that he is a *******. Rabbi Joshua remarked that he is the son of a niddah (a child conceived during a woman's menstrual period). Rabbi Akiba said that he is both a ******* and a son of a niddah.

"They said, 'What induced you to contradict the opinion of your colleagues?' He replied, "I will prove it concerning him." He went to the lad's mother and found her sitting in the market selling beans.

"He said to her, 'My daughter, if you will answer the question I will put to you, I will bring you to the world to come.' (eternal life). She said to him, 'Swear it to me.'

"Rabbi Akiba, taking the oath with his lips but annulling it in his heart, said to her, 'What is the status of your son?' She replied, 'When I entered the bridal chamber I was niddah (menstruating) and my husband kept away from me; but my best man had intercourse with me and this son was born to me.' Consequently the child was both a ******* and the son of a niddah.

"It was declared, '..Blessed be the God of Israel Who Revealed His Secret to Rabbi Akiba..."

In addition to the theme that God rewards clever liars, the preceding Talmud discussion is actually about Jesus Christ (the ******* boy who "uncovered his head" and was conceived in the filth of menstruation). The boy's adulterous mother in this Talmud story is the mother of Christ, Blessed Mary (called Miriam and sometimes, Miriam the hairdresser, in the Talmud).

"The Editio Princeps of the complete Code of Talmudic Law, Maimonides' Mishneh Torah -- replete not only with the most offensive precepts against all Gentiles but also with explicit attacks on Christianity and on Jesus (after whose name the author adds piously, 'May the name of the wicked perish')... --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21.

"The Talmud contains a few explicit references to Jesus...These references are certainly not complimentary...There seems little doubt that the account of the execution of Jesus on the eve of Passover does refer to the Christian Jesus...The passage in which Jesus' punishment in hell is described also seems to refer to the Christian Jesus. It is a piece of anti-Christian polemic dating from the post-70 CE period..." --Hyam Maccoby, Judaism on Trial, pp. 26-27.

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...

"The Hebrew form of the name Jesus--Yeshu--was interpreted as an acronym for the curse, 'may his name and memory be wiped out,' which is used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-zionist Orthodox Jews (such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as 'Herzl Jesus' and I have found in religious zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser Jesus" and more recently 'Arafat Jesus." --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, pp. 97- 98, 118.

Talmud Attacks Christians and Christian Books

Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.

Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books") will have no portion in the world to come.

Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

Dr. Israel Shahak of Hebrew University reports that the Israelis burned hundreds of New Testament Bibles in occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21).

Sick and Insane Teachings of the Talmud

Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix with honey and eat it.

Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a ***** in the world that the Talmudic sage Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with. On one of his *****house romps, Rabbi Eleazar leanred that there was one particular prostitute residing in a *****house near the sea, who would receive a bag of money for her services. He took a bag of money and went to her, crossing seven rivers to do so. During their intercourse the prostitute farted. After this the ***** told Rabbi Eleazar: "Just as this gas will never return to my anus, Rabbi Eleazar will never get to heaven."

Hagigah 27a. States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.

Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

Gittin 70a. The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."

Gittin 69b. To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should "take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog's excrement as it loosens the limbs."

Pesahim 111a. It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads.

Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave.

Tall Tales of a Roman Holocaust

Here are two early "Holocaust" tales from the Talmud: Gittin 57b. Claims that four billion Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar. Gittin 58a claims that 16 million Jewish children were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive by the Romans. (Ancient demography indicates that there were not 16 million Jews in the entire world at that time, much less 16 million Jewish children or four billion Jews).

A Revealing Admission

Abodah Zarah 70a. The question was asked of the rabbi whether wine stolen in Pumbeditha might be used or if it was defiled, due to the fact that the thieves might have been gentiles (a gentile touching wine would make the wine unclean). The rabbi says not to worry, that the wine is permissible for Jewish use because the majority of the thieves in Pumbeditha, the place where the wine was stolen, are Jews. (Also cf. Gemara Rosh Hashanah 25b).

Pharisaic Rituals

Erubin 21b. "Rabbi Akiba said to him, "Give me some water to wash my hands."

"It will not suffice for drinking," the other complained, "will it suffice for washing your hands?"

"What can I do?' the former replied, "when for neglecting the words of the Rabbis one deserves death? It is better that I myself should die than that I transgress against the opinion of my colleagues." [This is the ritual hand washing condemned by Jesus in Matthew 15: 1-9].

Genocide Advocated by the Talmud

Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed").

This passage is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, "Gentile," (p. 617).

This original Talmud passage has been concealed in translation. The Jewish Encyclopedia states that, "...in the various versions the reading has been altered, 'The best among the Egyptians' being generally substituted." In the Soncino version: "the best of the heathens" (Minor Tractates, Soferim 41a-b].

Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. (Jewish Press, June 9, 1989, p. 56B).

On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Jew from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane, who told CBS News that his teaching that Arabs are "dogs" is derived "from the Talmud." (CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").

University of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldstein's philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against goyim, a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5).

Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

Talmudic Doctrine: Non-Jews are not Human

The Talmud specifically defines all who are not Jews as non-human animals, and specifically dehumanizes Gentiles as not being descendants of Adam. Here are some of the Talmud passages which relate to this topic.

Kerithoth 6b: Uses of Oil of Anointing. "Our Rabbis have taught: He who pours the oil of anointing over cattle or vessels is not guilty; if over gentiles (goyim) or the dead, he is not guilty. The law relating to cattle and vessels is right, for it is written: "Upon the flesh of man (Adam), shall it not be poured (Exodus 30:32]); and cattle and vessels are not man (Adam).

"Also with regard to the dead, [it is plausible] that he is exempt, since after death one is called corpse and not a man (Adam). But why is one exempt in the case of gentiles (goyim); are they not in the category of man (Adam)? No, it is written: 'And ye my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are man" (Adam); [Ezekiel 34:31]: Ye are called man (Adam) but gentiles (goyim) are not called man (Adam)."

In the preceding passage, the rabbis are discussing the portion of the Mosaic law which forbids applying the holy oil to men.

The Talmud states that it is not a sin to apply the holy oil to Gentiles, because Gentiles are not human beings (i.e. are not of Adam).

Another example from tractate Yebamoth 61a: "It was taught: And so did R. Simeon ben Yohai state (61a) that the graves of gentiles (goyim) do not impart levitical uncleanness by an ohel [standing or bending over a grave], for it is said, 'And ye my sheep the sheep of my pasture, are men (Adam), [Ezekiel 34:31]; you are called men (Adam) but the idolaters are not called men (Adam)."

The Old Testament Mosaic law states that touching a human corpse or the grave of a human imparts uncleanness to those who touch it. But the Talmud teaches that if a Jew touches the grave of a Gentile, the Jew is not rendered unclean, since Gentiles are not human (not of Adam).

From Baba Mezia 114b: ""A Jewish priest was standing in a graveyard. When asked why he was standing there in apparent violation of the Mosaic law, he replied that it was permissible, since the law only prohibits Jews from coming into contact with the graves of humans (Adamites), and he was standing in a gentile graveyard. For it has been taught by Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: 'The graves of gentiles [goyim] do not defile. For it is written, 'And ye my flock, the flock of my pastures, are men (Adam)' (Ezekiel 34:31); only ye are designated men (Adam)."

Ezekiel 34:31 is the alleged Biblical proof text repeatedly cited in the preceding three Talmud passages. But Ezekiel 34:31 does not in fact support the Talmudic notion that only Israelites are human. What these rabbinical, anti-Gentile racists and ideologues have done in asserting the preceding absurdities about Gentiles is distort an Old Testament passage in order to justify their bigotry.

In Berakoth 58a the Talmud uses Ezekiel 23:20 as proof of the sub-human status of gentiles. It also teaches that anyone (even a Jewish man) who reveals this Talmudic teaching about non-Jews deserves death, since revealing it makes Gentiles wrathful and causes the repression of Judaism.

The Talmudic citation of this scripture from Ezekiel as a "proof-text" is specious, since the passage does not prove that Gentiles are animals. The passage from Ezekiel only says that some Egyptians had large genital organs and copious emissions. This does not in any way prove or even connote that the Egyptians being referred to in the Bible were considered animals. Once again, the Talmud has falsified the Bible by means of distorted interpretation.

Other Talmud passages which expound on Ezekiel 23:20 in this racist fashion are: Arakin 19b, Berakoth 25b, Niddah 45a, Shabbath 150a, Yebamoth 98a. Moreover, the original text of Sanhedrin 37a applies God's approval only to the saving of Jewish lives (cf. the Hesronot Ha-shas, Cracow, 1894).

Moses Maimonides: Advocate of Extermination

We will now examine the post-Talmudic commentator Rambam (Moses Maimonides). This revered "sage" taught that Christians should be exterminated. He has the highest stature in Judaism:

"Moses Maimonides is considered the greatest codifier and philosopher in Jewish history. He is often affectionately referred to as the Rambam, after the initials of his name and title, Rabenu Moshe Ben Maimon, "Our Rabbi, Moses son of Maimon." [Maimonides' Principles, edited by Aryeh Kaplan, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America,, p. 3].

Here is what Maimonides (Rambam) taught concerning saving people's lives, especially concerning saving the lives of gentiles and Christians, or even Jews who dared to deny the "divine inspiration" of the Talmud:

Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Moznaim Publishing Corporation, Brooklyn, New York, 1990, Chapter 10, English Translation), p. 184: "Accordingly, if we see an idolater (gentile) being swept away or drowning in the river, we should not help him. If we see that his life is in danger, we should not save him." The Hebrew text of the Feldheim 1981 edition of Mishnah Torah states this as well.

Immediately after Maimonides' admonition that it is a duty for Jews not to save a drowning or perishing gentile, he informs us of the Talmudic duty of Jews towards Christians, and also towards Jews who deny the Talmud. Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Chapter 10), p. 184:

"It is a mitzvah [religious duty], however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot."

The Jewish publisher's commentary accompanying the preceding statement of Maimonides states that Jesus was an example of a min (plural: minnim).

The commentary also states that the students of Tzadok were defined as those Jews who deny the truth of the Talmud and who uphold only the written law (i.e. the Old Testament).

According to Maimonides' Principles, p. 5, Maimonides "spent twelve years extracting every decision and law from the Talmud, and arranging them all into 14 systematic volumes. The work was finally completed in 1180, and was called Mishnah Torah, or "Code of the Torah."

Maimonides taught in another part of the Mishnah Torah that gentiles are not human: "Man alone, and not vessels, can contract uncleanness by carriage. ...The corpse of a gentile, however, does not convey uncleanness by overshadowing. ...a gentile does not contract corpse uncleanness; and if a gentile touches, carries, or overshadows a corpse he is as one who did not touch it.

"To what is this like? It is like a beast which touches a corpse or overshadows it. And this applies not to corpse uncleanness only but to any other kind of uncleanness: neither gentiles nor cattle are susceptible to any uncleanness." (The Code of Maimonides, vol. 10, translated by Herbert Danby, Yale University Press, New Haven, 1954, pp. 8-9).

Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Rotze'ach 2:11: "A Jew who killed a righteous gentile is not executed in a court of law. It says in Exodus 21:14, 'If a man schemes against his fellow man and kills the man deliberately, take him away from the altar and put him to death.' But a gentile is not considered a man, and even more so, a Jew is not executed for killing an unrighteous gentile."

The Schindler's List Quote

The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.

The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase:

"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."

However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.

In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.

In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.

Jewish Deception and Dissimulation

The response of the orthodox rabbis to documentation regarding the racism and hatred in their sacred texts is simply to brazenly lie, in keeping with the Talmud's Baba Kamma 113a which states that Jews may use lies ("subterfuge") to circumvent a Gentile.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center, a multi-million dollar rabbinical propaganda center dispatched Rabbi Daniel Landes in 1995 to deny that the Talmud dehumanizes non-Jews. "This is utter rot," he said. His proof? Why, his word, of course.

Lying to "circumvent a Gentile" has a long patrimony in Judaism. Take for example the 13th century Talmud debate in Paris between Nicholas of Donin, a Jewish convert to Christianity, whom Hyam Maccoby admits had "a good knowledge of the Talmud" ( "The Jews on Trial," p. 26) and Rabbi Yehiel. Yehiel was not under threat of death, bodily injury, imprisonment or fine. Yet he brazenly lied during the course of the debate.

When asked by Donin whether there were attacks on Jesus in the Talmud, Yehiel denied that there were any. Donin, a Hebrew and Aramaic scholar, knew this to be false. Hyam Maccoby, a 20th century Jewish commentator on the debate, defends Rabbi Yehiel's lying in this way:

"The question may be asked, however, whether Yehiel really believed that Jesus was not mentioned in the Talmud, or whether he put this forward as an ingenious ploy in the desperate situation in which he found himself...It would certainly have been pardonable of the rabbi to attempt some condonation in which he did not fully believe, to prevent such tyrannical proceedings by one religious culture against another." ( Maccoby, "The Jews on Trial," p. 28).

This is how Jewish denial of the existence of hateful Talmud texts is justified to this day. A fanciful word for Jewish lying is conjured ("condonation") and deemed "pardonable," while any scrutiny of Jewish holy books by Christian investigators is characterized as a "tyrannical proceeding."

In 1994, Rabbi Tzvi Marx, director of Applied Education at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem, made a remarkable admission concerning how Jewish rabbis in the past have issued two sets of texts: the authentic Talmudic texts with which they instruct their own youth in the Talmud schools (yeshiviot) and "censured and amended" versions which they disseminate to gullible non-Jews for public consumption.

Rabbi Marx states that in the version of Maimonides' teachings published for public consumption, Maimonides is made to say that whoever kills a human being transgresses the law.

But, Rabbi Marx points out "...this only reflects the censured and amended printed text, whereas the original manuscripts have it only as 'whoever kills an Israelite."(Tikkun: A Bi-Monthly Jewish Critique May-June, 1994).

The Jewish book, Hesronot Ha-shas ("that which is removed from the Talmud"), is important in this regard. (Cf. William Popper, The Censorship of Hebrew Books p. 59).

Hesronot Ha-shas was reprinted in 1989 by Sinai Publishing of Tel-Aviv. Hesronot Ha-shas is valuable because it lists both the original Talmud texts that were later changed or omitted, and the falsified texts cited for Gentile consumption as authentic.

Historian William Popper states: "It was not always that long passages...were censored...but often single words alone were omitted...Often, in these cases, another method of correction was used in place of omission--substitution." (Cf. William Popper, The Censorship of Hebrew Books pp. 58-59).

For example, the translators of the English Soncino version of the Talmud sometimes render the Hebrew word goyim (Gentiles) under any number of disguise words such as "heathen, Cuthean, Ku****e, Egyptian, idolater" etc. But these are actually references to Gentiles (all non-Jews). Footnotes for certain passages in the Soncino Talmud translation state: "Cuthean (Samaritan) was here substituted for the original goy..."

The heirs of the Pharisees often deny the existence of the Talmud passages here cited, in order to brazenly claim that such passages are the "fabrications of anti-Semites."

In 1994, the 80 year old Lady Jane Birdwood was arrested and prosecuted in a criminal court in London, England for the "crime" of publishing in her pamphlet, The Longest Hatred, the truthful statement that the Talmud contains anti-Gentile and anti-Christian passages. (She was accused of violating the Public Order Act of 1986).

In the course of her Orwellian thought-crime trial, which was ignored by the U.S. media, a rabbi was called as a prosecution witness. The rabbi proceeded to flatly deny that the Talmud contained anti-Gentile or anti-Christian passages and on the basis of the rabbi's "prestige," this elderly and ailing woman was sentenced to three months in jail and fined the equivalent of $1,000.

"Judeo-Christian" Response to the Talmud

Neither the modern popes or the modern heads of Protestantism, have ever insisted that the rabbis of Judaism repudiate or condemn the racism in the Talmud or the murderous hate for Christians and gentiles expressed within it. On the contrary, the heads of Churchianity have urged the followers of Christ to obey, honor and support the followers of the Talmud. Therefore, it should be obvious that these Catholic and Protestant leaders are the worst betrayers of Jesus Christ on earth today. (Cf. Matthew 23:13-15; I Thess. 2:14-16; Titus 1:14; Luke 3:8-9; Rev. 3:9).

Non-Jews are "Supernal Refuse"

Moreover, not only Christians but non-Christians of all races are regarded as "supernal refuse" (garbage) by Talmud teachers such as the founder of Habad-Lubavitch, Rabbi Shneur Zalman.

This was analyzed in the Jewish magazine, New Republic: "...there are some powerful ironies in Habad's new messianic universalism, in its mission to the gentiles; and surely the most unpleasant of them concerns Habad's otherwise undisguised and even racial contempt for the goyim.

"...medieval Jewish theologians--most notably the poet and philosopher Judah Ha-Levi in twelfth-century Spain and the mystic Judah Loewe in sixteenth-century Prague--sought to define the Jewish distinction racially rather than spiritually...this...view, according to which there is something innately superior about the Jews, was rehabilitated in its most extreme form by Shneur Zalman of Lyady. The founder of Lubavitcher Hasidism taught that there is a difference of essence between the souls of Jews and the souls of gentiles, that only in the Jewish soul does there reside a spark of divine vitality.

"As for the goyim...Zalman's attitude (was): 'Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.'

"Consequently, references to gentiles in Rabbi Shneur Zalman's teachings are invariably invidious. Their (non-Jews) material abundance derives from supernal refuse. Indeed, they themselves derive from refuse, which is why they are more numerous than the Jews, as the pieces of chaff outnumber the kernels...All Jews were innately good, all gentiles innately evil.

"...Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to Jews, has not in any way been revised in later Habad writing." --The New Republic, May 4, 1992. Also cf. Roman A. Foxbrunner, Habad: The Hasidism of Shneur Zalman of Lyady (Northvale, New Jersey, Jason Aronson, Inc., 1993) pp. 108-109.

U.S. Government Lays Groundwork for Talmudic Courts

"Our" government under Presidents Reagan, Bush and Clinton, has provided, under the euphemism of education (for example, House Joint Resolution 173 and Public Law 102-14), a groundwork for the establishment of Talmudic "courts of justice" to be administered by disciples of Shneur Zalman's Chabad successor, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

Maimonides ruled that it is a Jewish court -- or a court appointed by Jewish authority --that enforces obedience and passes judgment on Gentiles, as well as promulgating legislation by court order for that purpose. Maimonides further decreed that any non-Jewish nation "not subject to our jurisdiction" (tahaht yadeinu) will be the target of Jewish holy war. (Cf. Hilkhot Melakhim 8:9-10; 10:11. Also cf. Gerald J. Blidstein, "Holy War in Maimonidean Law," in Perspectives on Maimonides [Oxford, England: Oxford Univ. Press, 1991].

These courts are to be convened allegedly under the "Noahide Laws" (proscriptions against idolatry supposedly based on the covenant with Noah). The U.S. presidents and Congress urged the adoption of the "Noahide" Laws as interpreted by Chabad-Lubavitch Grand Rabbi Schneerson.

Prof. Easterly of the Southern University Law Center, a Jewish legal expert, has compared this Public law 102-14 to the "first rays of dawn" which "evidence the rising of a still unseen sun."

The Jewish Encyclopedia envisages a Noahide regime as a possible world order immediately preceding the universal reign of the Talmud.

It has to be understood that we are not dealing with the Noah of the Bible when the religion of Judaism refers to "Noahide law," but the Noahide law as understood and interpreted by the absolute system of falsification that constitutes the Talmud.

Under the Talmud's counterfeit Noahide Laws, the worship of Jesus is forbidden under penalty of death, since such worship of Christ is condemned by Judaism as idolatry. Meanwhile various forms of incest are permitted under the Talmudic understanding of the Noahide code. (Enziklopediya Talmudit, note 1, pp. 351-352).

Furthermore, all non-Jews would have the legal status of ger toshav ("resident alien," cf. Alan Unterman, Dictionary of Jewish Lore and Legend [London: Thames and Hudson, 1991], p. 148), even in their own land; as for example in occupied Palestine where newly arrived Khazars from Russia have an automatic right to housing and citizenship, while two million Palestinian refugees who either fled or were expelled by the Israelis, are forbidden the right of return.

Resident alien status has been clearly delineated in scholarly articles in leading Jewish publications. For example, Hebrew University Professor Mordechai Nisan, basing his exposition on Maimonides, stated that a non-Jew permitted to reside in a land ruled by Jewish law "must accept paying a tax and suffering the humiliation of servitude."

If Gentiles refuse to live a life of inferiority, then this signals their rebellion and the unavoidable necessity of Jewish warfare against their very presence. [Cf. Mordechai Nisan, Kivunim (official publication of the World Zionist Organization), August, 1984, pp. 151-156].

At a symposium ("Is Autonomy for Resident Aliens Feasible?") organized by Israeli Minister of Education Shulamit Aloni, the Israeli Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren repeated the Talmudic teaching on resident aliens: that Judaism forbids "granting any national rights" to them. He ruled that such "Autonomy is tantamount to a denial of the Jewish religion." (Nadav Shraggai, Ha'aretz, Oct. 14, 1992).

American taxpayers' subsidy of the so-called "U.S. Holocaust Museum" in Washington, D.C., is yet another indicator of the gradual establishment of a Jewish state religion in the U.S. This "Holocaust museum" excludes any reference to holocausts perpetrated by Jewish Communists against Christians in Russia and Eastern Europe, from 1917 onward.

The focus of the museum is almost entirely on Jewish suffering. Holocausts perpetrated by Israelis against Arabs in Lebanon and Palestine since 1948 are nowhere to be found in the exhibits of the U.S. "Holocaust Museum," which functions more like a synagogue than a repository of objective historical information.

It is through the rapid emergence of this ostensibly secular but all-pervasive "Holocaustianity" -- whereby the religion of Judaism is gaining enormous power and influence as mankind's supreme ethos and the creed of God's Holy People.

Jewish Law Requires Christians be Executed

Israeli "Torah scholars" have ruled that:

"The Torah maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the World to Come. But not all religious Gentiles earn eternal life by virtue of observing their religion...And while the Christians do generally accept the Hebrew Bible as truly from God, many of them (those who accept the so-called divinity of Jesus) are idolaters according to the Torah, punishable by death, and certainly will not enjoy the World to Come."

--Israeli Mechon-Mamre website, June 26, 2000; 12 Hayyim Vital St., Jerusalem, Occupied Palestine. ("Mechon Mamre is a small group of Torah scholars in Israel...").

[Note: we have printed and preserved in our files a hard copy of this statement from the Israeli "Mechon-Mamre Torah Scholars," as it appeared on their website at http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/gentiles.htm

on June 26, 2000, in the event that denials are later issued and the statement itself suppressed].

Jewish Superstitions

It is not for nothing that the authoritative edition of the Talmud is known as the Babylonian Talmud. As Christians misled by their Judaizing preachers and popes are increasingly consulting Jewish rabbinical sources for a "pure" understanding of the Old Testament, they are unknowingly consulting the occult.

Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees and the patrimony of Babylon, from whence the Talmudic and Kabbalistic traditions of Judaism ultimately derive. Orthodox Judaism's other sacred book, the Kabbalah, is filled with astrological teachings, fortune-telling, gematria, necromancy and demonology.

The photograph on the cover of this publication's hard copy version shows an orthodox Jew performing a ritual to transfer his sins to the chicken he is waving over his head. This is pernicious superstition.

Furthermore, the Israeli "Star of David," is actually nothing of the kind, but rather an occult hexagram, a yantra of the androgyne, which became associated with the Khazars in 14th century Bohemia. (The misnamed "state of Israel" was founded in 1948 in an alliance between Jewish Communists and atheistic Zionists, with crucial U.N. recognition provided by Soviet Communist dictator Joseph Stalin).

Christians might find it eye-opening to visit a Hasidic Jewish area during "Purim" and observe the grotesque, Halloween-like cavorting. Though the Purim festival uses the Book of Esther as its supposed proof-text, in practice the Jewish celebration of Purim is little more than a Bacchanal (cf. "Superstitions said legacy from Jewish ancestors," Canadian Jewish News, Nov. 16, 1989, p. 58).

Orthodox rabbis place curses, cast spells and imagine they have powers greater than God, derived from their study of the Sefer Yezriah, (a book of Kabbalistic magic). Christians are trafficking in Babylonian paganism when they defer to the rabbis of Judaism.

Sodomy in the synagogue

From a report published in the Hebrew language Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz

"...for many years, (Talmud scribe) Yaakov Yitzhak Brizel...sodomized ultra-Orthodox boys. The greatest rabbis knew - and did nothing...

"At the age of 11, Moisheleh, the strongest fellow in the talmud torah (school for ultra-Orthodox boys), went up to Shaiya Brizel and said to him: 'Kid, I want you know that your father is not the holy man you think he is. He is a homo.' ...Brizel was a scion of the Brizel family, which founded ...the mysterious organization that imposes moral order on the ultra-Orthodox ghetto...

"Had the father, Yaakov Yitzhak Brizel ...contented himself with homosexual relations with adults, it is reasonable to suppose that we would never have heard his son's story.

"However, in his book, The Silence of the Ultra-Orthodox, published a few weeks ago, the son claims that for decades his father ...sodomized yeshiva students. He committed the act in empty synagogues during the hours between prayers and in other places.

"The greatest of the ultra-Orthodox rabbis...like Rabbi Landau and the halachic sage Shmuel Halevi Hausner of Bnei Brak, knew and kept silent. The father was a Hasid heart and soul, and went to a number of rebbes.... the twin brother of the rebbe from Rehovot, the Rebbe of Kretschnif in Kiryat Gat, was happy to accept the father among his followers. Ultimately, claims Brizel, it was not easy for the Rebbe from Kiryat Gat to be picky when he could win such a respected adherent.

"...The proud father with the look of an honored rebbe, who observed all the commandments from the slightest to the most important, used to pray at a certain yeshiva with the young boys. There, claims Shaiya Brizel, he hunted his victims. When the head of the yeshiva discovered the true reason that the respected Torah scribe was praying fervently at his yeshiva, he did not contact the police...

"Before the publication of his book, Shaiya Brizel met with the yeshiva head. 'You are right that we covered up for him,' admitted the man. 'I and a few other rabbis...I was busy trying to calm things down and hushing up the affair so that it would not get publicized.'

"(The son) published the book using real names. His entire family and almost all the rabbis appear under their own names. Only the names of some of the localities and the head of the yeshiva are disguised. To protect himself from a legal point of view, Brizel held a series of conversations with members of his family and rabbis, in which he demanded explanations of why they had covered up for his father's misbehavior. He secretly recorded all these conversations, even with his mother.

"If I had written without the names it would have been fiction and this certainly did not suit me," he explained. 'I wanted things to change, for ultra-Orthodox society to know that it can attempt to hide things and be hidden, but even if it takes 30 years, a Golem will always rise up against its creator and reveal everything. In this case, I was the Golem.'

"When Rachel Brizel, the daughter of a good Bnei Brak family, married an arranged match from the glorious Brizel family, she had no idea that she was destroying her own life. After six months, she caught her husband having sex with another man. In that case, at least it was with an adult.

"Shaiya Brizel relates that some of the boys with whom his father had relations sent letters of complaint to their own fathers; in the discreet ultra-Orthodox society they had no one else to whom they could complain.

Shaiya Brizel: author of a book telling of sodomy in the synagogue

"When she read these letters, my mother went out of her mind,' writes Brizel. 'Every such letter made her want to demand a divorce. Again and again batteries of mediators, the Brizel rabbis, would show up, whose job it was to calm her down so that, heaven forbid, she would not destroy the good name of the Brizel family.

"They could live with the fact that one of their own had raped minors, but for them divorce was an impossible situation.'

"...Twice, once during prayers in a synagogue, and once during a Gemara (Talmud) study hour at Rabbi Eliezer Shach's Ponevezh Yeshiva, ultra-Orthodox men who were strangers to him touched his sexual organ, presumably on the assumption that he followed in his father's footsteps. The first time, he made a fuss, only to discover that the only thing that interested the people there was to hush the whole thing up. The second time, he made do with a whispered warning to the man.

"Shaiya Brizel is now 36 and the father of three; he works as an accountant.

"His father, 65, was forced to leave home several years ago and return to his elderly parents' apartment. Shaiya wrote this book after a suicide attempt in June.

'For all those years I was half dead. For the past five years I have been getting psychological treatment. During my talks with the psychologist I decided that I was going to spew out all this ugliness in the form of a book.'

"He took into account that there would be violent reactions to the book...which only came out a few weeks ago...Brizel suffers from a serious heart defect, which could cause his death. As a way of protecting himself, he has deposited a letter with three lawyers that contains serious allegations about the Eda Haredit, and he has informed the relevant people.

"Recently, he has moved to a new apartment, and he lives in the National Religious sector of a mixed community of National Religious and ultra-Orthodox families. Naturally, he started praying at the only Hasidic synagogue in the settlement. After the book came out, associates of the local rebbe (rabbi) informed him that he was persona non grata.

"Ironically, this same rebbe had come to the area after being compelled to leave several other communities on suspicion of having sodomized his pupils. In ultra-Orthodox society, revealing that acts of sodomy have been committed is a far graver offense than committing them.

"On the day the book was published, Brizel met with the head of the Hachemei Lublin Yeshiva, Rabbi Avraham Vazner. 'He told me that publishing the book was a million times worse than what my father had done...'

"Ha'aretz has been unable to obtain a response from Rabbi Yaakov Yitzhak Brizel. At his parents' home, a woman replied: "We don't care. Shaiya is a liar and there is nothing more to be said."

"Ha'aretz also requested the Brizels' response through the Eda Haredit activist Yehuda Meshi- Zahav. By the time the article went to press, there was no response through this channel either.

"Several weeks ago the father responded to the women's magazine La'isha, saying that he would sue the publishers, which has not yet happened. It is unlikely that it will happen.

"Shaiya Brizel was ready to put off publication of the book, on condition that the family sue him in a rabbinical court, in which the affair would be aired. He has said that no one in the family was prepared to take up the challenge.

"In the conversation with La'isha, the father said that he was indeed a homosexual, 'But I have had treatment and today I am no longer like that. All this is behind me.'

"In reply to a question as to whether he had sexual relations with minors, he replied: 'Perhaps I will talk about that some other time.' He accused his son Shaiya of being 'the only one who is after me. He has destroyed my life...He wrote this only for the money. He wanted money from me...Because of him I separated from my wife.'

"Shaiya's sister, Rivka Hubert, spoke with great anger to the La'isha reporter about the fact that her brother had revealed the names of the persons involved, and declared: 'We deny everything it says in the book."

[End quote]

Source: Ha'aretz, "Israel's Leading Daily Newspaper," Shevat 25, 5760 (Feb. 1, 2000).

Christianity is the only true religion of the Bible. It was founded by Israelites who adhered to the Torah (Pentateuch) and who recognized in Christ's gospel of salvation through grace, the fulfillment of the Old Testament. It is the followers of Jesus who constitute the holy nation and the royal priesthood (I Peter 2:9).

Copyright ©2000-2006 by Michael A. Hoffman II All Rights Reserved.

The Truth About the Talmud is copyrighted material excerpted from Michael A. Hoffman's book, "Judaism's Strange Gods."

Independent History and Research, Box 849, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho 83816

Free on-line books by late Israeli professor Israel Shahak:

Jewish History, Jewish Religion - The Weight of Three Thousand Years by Israel Shahak

Code:
http://www.jewishracism.com/books.htm
Comprehensive research on Judaism:

Judaism Discovered by Michael Hoffman


Code:
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English translation and commentary of the babylonian Talmud:

Four Avenues of Research into the Babylonian Talmud

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جوري
01-10-2010, 09:50 PM
the christian response naturally:

Reply

Cabdullahi
01-10-2010, 10:46 PM
this book fits perfectly with what the dajjal wants to implement and as a matter of fact his system is slowly being implemented until it reaches a fruitful stage so that he can appear
Reply

aadil77
01-10-2010, 11:17 PM
wow those excerpts quoted confirm all the generalisations of jews.

it really must be kept well hidden if its hardly ever mentioned in the media
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Amadeus85
01-10-2010, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
the christian response naturally:



Why? Actually I found out about Talmud's teachings from catholic newspaper and then website.
It's very interesting article, and it makes some anti-islamic-pro-israeli sites look silly, since they quote so called hateful teachings from Quaran, while Talmud is full of things that white liberal simply can't stand.
Reply

Abdul Qadir
01-11-2010, 12:12 AM
Hitler said in his book "My Struggle": I could have annnihilated all Jews in the world, but I left some of them so you will know why I was killing them!

Now we know why..=)
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Shahreaz
01-11-2010, 06:36 AM
I posted this same thread in a catholic christian forum. The moment I finished posting it, they deleted the thread, banned my nick and even banned my IP! Mejority of Christians blind fully supports Israel and it's policies but they don't understand this same Israel will throw them way when they finish building their so called chosen land.
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syilla
01-11-2010, 08:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shahreaz
I posted this same thread in a catholic christian forum. The moment I finished posting it, they deleted the thread, banned my nick and even banned my IP! Mejority of Christians blind fully supports Israel and it's policies but they don't understand this same Israel will throw them way when they finish building their so called chosen land.
why they want to ban you? that is so weird of them... you only quoted the talmud not the bible...hmm....
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aadil77
01-11-2010, 12:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
why they want to ban you? that is so weird of them... you only quoted the talmud not the bible...hmm....
because they can't take it that the very people their govt's have been injecting billions to, share those kind of beliefs, probably the most extreme beliefs I've heard of
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Muslim Woman
01-11-2010, 12:55 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Shahreaz
.Here is list of some excerpts and authoritative documents on Talmud and Judaism:

Code:
http://revisionisthistory.org/wire1.html
Part I: Jesus and the Talmud


A Jew in other forum told me that it's an anti -jew site and these are not from Talmud but the opinions of Jewish Rabbis .

I tried to check the talmud online but could not find the full talmud at that time.

Anyway , there is a verse in Bible that says ( not the exact words ) God blesses Jews ; so whoever does something good to Jews will be blessed by God ...something like that. So , I guess , many religious Christians believe they are not allowed to oppose Jews .

Who knows if any Jew inserted the verse in Christian's holy book ??
Reply

Shahreaz
01-11-2010, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:




A Jew in other forum told me that it's an anti -jew site and these are not from Talmud but the opinions of Jewish Rabbis .

I tried to check the talmud online but could not find the full talmud at that time.

Anyway , there is a verse in Bible that says ( not the exact words ) God blesses Jews ; so whoever does something good to Jews will be blessed by God ...something like that. So , I guess , many religious Christians believe they are not allowed to oppose Jews .

Who knows if any Jew inserted the verse in Christian's holy book ??
Salam MW. Anything that goes against Jews, they just label it as anti-jews/anti-israel/anti-semitic. No you wont find full Talmud in internet. It's forbidden for them to show it to non-jews peoples.
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titus
01-16-2010, 05:20 AM
Salam MW. Anything that goes against Jews, they just label it as anti-jews/anti-israel/anti-semitic. No you wont find full Talmud in internet. It's forbidden for them to show it to non-jews peoples.
It is not forbidden for them to show it. In fact they have translated and published it.

The Talmud
Hitler said in his book "My Struggle": I could have annnihilated all Jews in the world, but I left some of them so you will know why I was killing them!

Now we know why..=)
Posts like this make me want to throw up. Is it any wonder that articles like this can be found on White Supremacist websites? Why is it that every Muslim message board I have seen has articles like this trying to convince people to hate Jews? Does keeping intellectual company with the KKK and Stormfront tell you anything about the veracity of these articles? Have you read anything about the authors of these articles? Research Ted Pike and the others, then see if you will join the neo-Nazis in their love of them.

I have seen this thread posted on other boards and I have seen it completely refuted by others. It is amazing to me how Muslims get upset when the Quran is quoted out of context, yet have spend absolutely no time whatsoever examining such accusations against Jews, but then too many Muslims feel it is their duty to hate Jews.

That makes me sick.

If you want more information about the "facts" in this article then read this site: LINK

It directly replies to quotes from this article such as

Jews Have Superior Legal Status

Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Of course if you simply want to hate Jews then this information will mean nothing, or you will find some other excuse to do so.
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جوري
01-16-2010, 05:34 AM
articles from their holy books are hardly the reason Israelis and their supporters are despised (emotions) aren't bought or sold through sugar coating rather by their actions and what their hands are offered.. It doesn't matter whether said info. is 'propaganda' via some KKK group, as I highly doubt given that the Jews who were once on board never denied any of it.. The land they seized is a living proof that what is written whether overtly or covertly is in fact true!

If it makes you sick, you can always join another forum!

all the best!
Reply

titus
01-16-2010, 03:01 PM
So since you hate them (for good reason of course) it is fine to spread lies about them?

Amazing logic.

And since there are Muslim terrorists, using your same logic, it is perfectly fine to make such false posts about Islam also, right?

Or do you have a double standard?
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JoshuaD
01-16-2010, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Qadir
Hitler said in his book "My Struggle": I could have annnihilated all Jews in the world, but I left some of them so you will know why I was killing them!

Now we know why..=)
What a terrible thing to say. +o(
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جوري
01-16-2010, 04:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
So since you hate them (for good reason of course) it is fine to spread lies about them?

Amazing logic.

And since there are Muslim terrorists, using your same logic, it is perfectly fine to make such false posts about Islam also, right?

Or do you have a double standard?
I haven't spread any lies about them, nor did I actually say 'I hate Jews'..
try to work on your reading comprehension!

As for the 'Muslim terrorist' thing, if that is your trump card, pls. feel free to use it at will, it doesn't affect me in any shape or form, so I don't see how I can have any double standard about it!

all the best
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aamirsaab
01-16-2010, 06:18 PM
:sl:
I don't hate jews. I don't even know any jews...:(
Reply

Predator
01-16-2010, 08:39 PM
What a terrible thing to say.
Islam does honor Judaism and the good, faithful, and GOD-fearing Jews:

"It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. (The Noble Quran, 5:44)"




But Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran did promise the Jews a severe punishment in life every time they do mischief on earth:

Let us look at the Noble Verses 17:4-10

"4. And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.

8. It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).

9. Verily this Qur'an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;

10. And to those who believe not in the Hereafter, (it announceth) that We have prepared for them a Penalty Grievous (indeed)."

Notice in Noble Verse 17:7 Allah Almighty said that He sent people who disfigured the faces of the Jews because of their mischief on earth. And notice in Noble Verse 17:8 Allah Almighty promised the Jews that He will repeat the punishment if they revert to doing mischief on earth.

It is strongly believed among many Germans and Europeans that the Jews were actually one of the main reasons why World War II happened. The Jews had control over the most powerful financial institutions (such as banks, real estates, and others) in Germany and Europe, and were exploiting it solely to their advantage to gain political controls and domination, exactly similar to their control and domination over the American financial institutions today in the US, where as a result of that the US foreign policy is always in the favor of Israel.

This is why Hitler decided to eliminate the Jews from Germany and the rest of the world. That is why the holocaust occurred, where the Nazi Germans literally baked the Jews in ovens, and killed in other ways such as poising them to death. It is the Jews' mischief in Germany and Europe that caused for their mass murder. It is the Jews' mischief that caused for the Nazi Germans to "disfigure their faces" as Allah Almighty promised the Jews to be punished for any mischief they cause on earth.

I often wonder how can many Christians consider the Bible as a perfect and error-free book (while most of their theologians disagree), and consider the Jews as GOD Almighty's chosen people, who are not just a nation like all nations, but rather a better and more special and closer to GOD one, and still ignore the holocaust event and leave it out of questioning?!

I mean, how can the Jews be above all the nations in the eyes of GOD Almighty, and are considered the holiest nation on earth, while He left them get tortured in the most ruthless and brutal way in the hands of the Nazi Germans?

Well anyway, even according to the Bible, GOD Almighty will take His Kingdom from the Jews and give it to another nation

Jesus said to the Jews: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"

what other nation beside the modern Muslims of today bow down to GOD Almighty in the most proper way? What other nation beside the modern Muslims Glorify GOD Almighty in their 5-daily Prayers, and fast the Month of Ramadan for Him?


So both Quran and the Bible together agree that the nation would be taken away from these Jews
Reply

JoshuaD
01-16-2010, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
I mean, how can the Jews be above all the nations in the eyes of GOD Almighty, and are considered the holiest nation on earth, while He left them get tortured in the most ruthless and brutal way in the hands of the Nazi Germans?
He also failed to save the millions of Muslims that were murdered in China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...China#Genocide
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Muslim Woman
01-17-2010, 03:43 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
.. how can the Jews be above all the nations in the eyes of GOD Almighty,
jews got punishment in the world and they will be punished before and on the final day but indeed they were blessed in the past by God Almigthy .


It's very interesting that even in their own holy book , u will find verses how jews disobeyed God. There is a misconception that only Quran described how jews revolted against their and our Creator .

they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck....Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm

http://www.convertstoislam.org/

Similarities between Muslims & Jewish Holy Books.


http://theislampath.com/smf/index.php?topic=408.0
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malayloveislam
01-17-2010, 04:55 AM
There were ancient Arab tribes too who were blessed with prophets and His Mercy like 'Aad and Thamoud, but they disobeyed G-d. Jews are among those ingrate bedoiune. We should take heed from what had happened and not to take their disobedience as example, but G-d never told us to hate any human-being nor His other creations.
Reply

Rabi Mansur
01-17-2010, 05:37 AM
Non-Jews, in particular Muslims and Christians, should be aware of how Jesus (peace be upon him) and his blessed mother Maryam are depicted in the Jewish "holy" book Talmud. Mysteriously, Talmud is the least discussed/exposed religious book in the public domain and on the Jewish controlled media. Exposure of Talmud to a non-Jew is punishable to death according to the Rabbinical edict. On the other hand, the Jewish-controlled media mocks Islam and Christianity 24/7 and get away with impunity.
The Talmud is not that hard to get ahold of my friend. Have you actually read it? It is extremely boring and reads like a legal text. I own some of its volumes but not all of them and I'm not a Jew, so I guess I could be sentenced to death huh? There is the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. They read like law books, I should know, I went to law school.

I've never come across any of the nonsense you quoted. I think you got your information from a bad source. It reminds me of some of the stuff put out by some of the anti-Qur'an sites out there. Be careful. It appears that you are defaming the Jews in the same way that Islam is defamed.

:wa:
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Rabi Mansur
01-17-2010, 05:40 AM
but G-d never told us to hate any human-being nor His other creations.
:amin:




:wa:
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Muslim Woman
01-17-2010, 08:53 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by malayloveislam
..G-d never told us to hate any human-being nor His other creations.

Why do u write God as G-d ?


Anyone has link of the whole Talmud including Sanhedrin chapter ?
Reply

titus
01-19-2010, 04:54 PM
I haven't spread any lies about them, nor did I actually say 'I hate Jews'..
You never came out and said it, but you have no problem defending people that start threads like this. The original post of this thread is filled with lies and you attack me instead of the people posting the lies. I find that very telling.

As for the 'Muslim terrorist' thing, if that is your trump card, pls. feel free to use it at will, it doesn't affect me in any shape or form, so I don't see how I can have any double standard about it!
Then you obviously misunderstood the point I was making.

If you can defend lies being spread about Judaism because you disagree with the actions of some of its followers, then it is only logical that you should defend lies being spread about Islam for the same reason.

If lies being spread about Islam, and posts about Islam being a religion of hate and violence don't bother you then you are most certainly correct when saying that it won't affect you.

If, on the other hand, such accusations do affect you then you should not have a double standard and defend those that spread such lies about Judaism.
Reply

جوري
01-19-2010, 05:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You never came out and said it, but you have no problem defending people that start threads like this. The original post of this thread is filled with lies and you attack me instead of the people posting the lies. I find that very telling.
1-Indeed, I haven't come out and said anything to the smarmy avail that you desire to bank on. Leaving you very little margin to work with I imagine must be frustrating for you to strain so hard and still make a point out of nothing.
2- The original thread isn't filled with lies.. you are yet to establish that said quotes aren't directly from the talmud.
3- I haven't attacked you, I couldn't be less invested emotionally in anything you write.. I get a thrill though seeing flustered for something of substance to impart and always coming up empty :D

Then you obviously misunderstood the point I was making.
I don't think you have much of a point!
If you can defend lies being spread about Judaism because you disagree with the actions of some of its followers, then it is only logical that you should defend lies being spread about Islam for the same reason.
There is no logic in that whatsoever.. Again, you are first to establish that, these quotes aren't direct from the talmud, and secondly--you are doing a good job from the opposite end, that one can't possibly beat you in folly.
If lies being spread about Islam, and posts about Islam being a religion of hate and violence don't bother you then you are most certainly correct when saying that it won't affect you.
Hey no publicity is bad publicity.. as evinced by the number of converts yearly.. surely for every ten idiots on the net, ten reflective people pick up a book and find out the truth of the matter for themselves!
If, on the other hand, such accusations do affect you then you should not have a double standard and defend those that spread such lies about Judaism.
see last comment..


all the best
Reply

titus
01-19-2010, 05:13 PM
I don't hate jews. I don't even know any jews..
One does not need to know something to hate it. In fact it is usually just the opposite, the less one knows more about something the easier it is to hate it.

This is why Hitler decided to eliminate the Jews from Germany and the rest of the world. That is why the holocaust occurred, where the Nazi Germans literally baked the Jews in ovens, and killed in other ways such as poising them to death. It is the Jews' mischief in Germany and Europe that caused for their mass murder. It is the Jews' mischief that caused for the Nazi Germans to "disfigure their faces" as Allah Almighty promised the Jews to be punished for any mischief they cause on earth.
Do you realize how revolting this statement is?

The Jews caused the Holocaust? You are making excuses for Hitler?

Look at your post. You spend one sentence and one quote telling how Muslims honor Jews, then spend the rest of your long post explaining how all Jews deserve whatever they get.

Why is it that someone can start a thread filled with lies about a Jewish holy book, yet not one Muslim has come on here to help refute lies. In fact they make more posts explaining why Jews deserve punishment.
Reply

titus
01-19-2010, 05:44 PM
The original thread isn't filled with lies.. you are yet to establish that said quotes aren't directly from the talmud.
I posted a link to the Talmud. If you read the Talmud you will see that it a record of discussions between Rabbis, and often has Rabbis disagreeing with each other. Such a text makes it easy to take things out of context.

If you want someone to explain it to you then here are some links:


O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.


Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").


I haven't attacked you, I couldn't be less invested emotionally in anything you write.. I get a thrill though seeing flustered for something of substance to impart and always coming up empty
Sure, we all believe you. Keep defending and excusing the Jew haters while telling me I have nothing of substance to impart.

I don't think you have much of a point!
Witty retort, but then you obviously didn't understand the point in the first place.

Hey no publicity is bad publicity.. as evinced by the number of converts yearly.. surely for every ten idiots on the net, ten reflective people pick up a book and find out the truth of the matter for themselves!
So you are trying to convince people that you think websites that lie about Islam are a good thing?

It is also amusing that expect "reflective" people to look up the truth and "idiots" not to, yet you won't take the time to look into the accusations against Judaism. You may actually have a point there.
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جوري
01-19-2010, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I posted a link to the Talmud. If you read the Talmud you will see that it a record of discussions between Rabbis, and often has Rabbis disagreeing with each other. Such a text makes it easy to take things out of context.

If you want someone to explain it to you then here are some links:


O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.


Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").
The link addresses nothing, it is left open for one to decipher as they may.. do you have something to rebut these statements:

Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus' mother was a *****: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."

A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was? - He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery.

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus ( see footnote #4) is being boiled in "hot excrement."
Sanhedrin 43a. Jesus deserved execution: "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"



just to name a few.


When we had Jewish members here, they actually accused Muslims of being brain washed by Christians to buy into the 'virgin birth' -- so frankly if they have no cause to defend those beliefs, who are you to defend it?


Sure, we all believe you. Keep defending and excusing the Jew haters while telling me I have nothing of substance to impart.
Again, you have to establish that stating facts = to Jewish hate, before you flail like a lunatic!



Witty retort, but then you obviously didn't understand the point in the first place.
Again, it is because you have nothing of substance to impart!

So you are trying to convince people that you think websites that lie about Islam are a good thing?
No, I genuinely don't care.. today as I was driving by the U.N I saw lunatics not unlike yourself equating islam with terror, and asking the U.N to intervene on their behalf, allegedly that their Christian youths are being 'slaughtered' in Egypt, funnily enough the entire coptic population seemed to fill three blocks, and given their percentage in Egypt, I'd say all of them are given the opportunity to travel abroad while Muslims are being denied such opportunities. I didn't open my window and try to correct their views, they are entitled to spread falsehood. It won't change Islam, and it does me no good to cast pearl before swine.. I am not moved by the loud braying of donkeys!

It is also amusing that expect "reflective" people to look up the truth and "idiots" not to, yet you won't take the time to look into the accusations against Judaism. You may actually have a point there.
Well indeed, by definition idiots are idiotic, while reflective folks reflect!
just because you have dispensed the label of hatred doesn't make one hateful or loan anything you write credence!

get a picket sign and take a corner!

all the best
Reply

Predator
01-19-2010, 08:29 PM
Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus' mother was a *****: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."

The Holy Quran elevated Mary in particular to a position no other woman has ever reached in history.

While the aforementioned women are significant models of morality, Mary has a special and esteemed placed in the Qur'an and in Islam, where a sura (or verse of the Qur'an) is named after her and Allah chooses her above all women.

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations."

She said: 'How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?' He said: 'So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed.' "
(Qur'an 19:20-21)


Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery.

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus ( see footnote #4) is being boiled in "hot excrement."
Sanhedrin 43a. Jesus deserved execution: "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"
Chapter 3:45
The angel said: "O Mary ! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Messiah , Jesus , the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and he will be one of those who are near to Allah.'') He will speak to the people, in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous.''

Any Christian with common sense would read and appreciate what is written in the Quran about Mary and Jesus and detest the devilish filth in Thalmud
Reply

titus
01-20-2010, 02:39 AM
The link addresses nothing, it is left open for one to decipher as they may.. do you have something to rebut these statements:
Left open to decipher? I find it intriguing that if anyone says anything bad about Jews it is not up to that person to prove it, the burden of proof then lies on the person trying to refute it. That alone shows your feelings about Jews, and your double standard.

As for refuting what it says about Jesus and Mary, I have not researched that because I do not care. Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, therefore I have no problem with them believing he was a sorcerer or that the "virgin" Mary was a liar.

To argue that Jews are taught to look upon non-Jews as subhuman or to argue that their religion tells them it is perfectly fine to cheat others is a lie, though. It is an attempt to demonize them, which is why you mainly find these accusations on White Power and Muslim sites since both groups want to legitimize their hatred and convince others to hate also.

get a picket sign and take a corner!
What would I picket? I have nothing against Islam, unlike the people you mention. The only one here that is arguing against an entire religion here is you.

When can we expect to see you with a picket explaining how Jews think all non-Jews are subhuman and that Judaism teaches that it is fine for them to steal from other people?
Reply

جوري
01-20-2010, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Left open to decipher? I find it intriguing that if anyone says anything bad about Jews it is not up to that person to prove it, the burden of proof then lies on the person trying to refute it. That alone shows your feelings about Jews, and your double standard.
?
you said we 'demonized Jews'
I contend (I in fact haven't) however when passages of bigotry are cited you ask us to look the other way? I mean if they don't exist then rebut them, don't reference us to some website because you can't do some homework!

As for refuting what it says about Jesus and Mary, I have not researched that because I do not care. Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, therefore I have no problem with them believing he was a sorcerer or that the "virgin" Mary was a liar.
Indeed, they believe he was the son of a w hore etc. etc.
so I must ask you, in which ways are we being bigoted or hateful in citing their beliefs-- do you have it the other way around perhaps?

To argue that Jews are taught to look upon non-Jews as subhuman or to argue that their religion tells them it is perfectly fine to cheat others is a lie, though. It is an attempt to demonize them, which is why you mainly find these accusations on White Power and Muslim sites since both groups want to legitimize their hatred and convince others to hate also.
I have actually done no such thing, and I don't need to, in fact I believe those of them that are hateful and bigoted living on stolen lands have done a mighty fine job to foster that hatred for themselves by themselves without citations from holy or non-holy books or the need for the yearly holocaust movie.. surely for folks who have suffered a five year plight, they enjoy inflicting it on others for 60+ yrs.. and then you come cataloging and surveying with your smarmy self-importance.. take a hike mac!



What would I picket? I have nothing against Islam, unlike the people you mention. The only one here that is arguing against an entire religion here is you.
Whatever your grievances go picket them to anyone who will listen, I am not big on drivel.

When can we expect to see you with a picket explaining how Jews think all non-Jews are subhuman and that Judaism teaches that it is fine for them to steal from other people?
I don't picket, I suggested it for you as it seems right up your ally!

all the best
Reply

titus
01-20-2010, 03:28 AM
you said we 'demonized Jews'
I contend (I in fact haven't) however when passages of bigotry are cited you ask us to look the other way?
When the passages being quoted are as bigoted as any found in the Quran?

You are defending people who claim that Judaism teaches that non-Jews are basically animals and that is allowable for Jews to cheat anyone who is not a Jew. How can you claim that is not demonizing them?

so I must ask you, in which ways are we being bigoted or hateful in citing their beliefs-- do you have it the other way around perhaps?
Read my post again. I am referring the passages that are not about Jesus. You keep bringing up passages that I have already stated I am not concerned with.

I have actually done no such thing, and I don't need to, in fact I believe those of them that are hateful and bigoted living on stolen lands have done a mighty fine job to foster that hatred for themselves by themselves without citations from holy or non-holy books or the need for the yearly holocaust movie..
You seem to be confusing Israelis with the Talmud. You are bringing up something totally irrelevant when you bring up Israel.

If you want people to hate Jews because of what they are doing in Israel then be honest and say so. Don't foster your hatred by defending falsehoods about the Talmud. Don't be intellectually dishonest by defending people who claim that such things are a secret part of their evil religion.
Reply

جوري
01-20-2010, 03:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
When the passages being quoted are as bigoted as any found in the Quran?
No, the Quran doesn't refer to holy people as W hores.. but this begs the questions and the purpose of the thread!

You are defending people who claim that Judaism teaches that non-Jews are basically animals and that is allowable for Jews to cheat anyone who is not a Jew. How can you claim that is not demonizing them?
Everyone has a right to their opinion even if another doesn't agree with it. Furthermore I haven't 'defended' anyone, I have joined with my own commentary!



Read my post again. I am referring the passages that are not about Jesus. You keep bringing up passages that I have already stated I am not concerned with.
But I was speaking specifically of those passages, and they are not the only one of their kind.. I reference those because they are of particular significance religiously!

You seem to be confusing Israelis with the Talmud. You are bringing up something totally irrelevant when you bring up Israel.
as irrelevant as bringing up the Quran to the talmud?.. it is after what governs the practices of some people!
If you want people to hate Jews because of what they are doing in Israel then be honest and say so. Don't foster your hatred by defending falsehoods about the Talmud. Don't be intellectually dishonest by defending people who claim that such things are a secret part of their evil religion.
I haven't fostered falsehood, you are yet to prove it false.. and my feelings are my own, I don't need to defend them, I am not under the impression that anyone should be made to like something they find frankly distasteful.

all the best
Reply

titus
01-20-2010, 07:28 AM
No, the Quran doesn't refer to holy people as W hores.. but this begs the questions and the purpose of the thread!
The purpose of this thread is obvious, to make people want to hate Jews and using the pretext of saying the Talmud tells Jews that non-Jews are subhuman, can be cheated and not payed, etc.

It has the same purpose as the ones started by people stating that the Quran is evil because it says things like "Muslims are taught by Islam to fight all non-Muslims" because the Quran says "9.123 “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you”.

Is it true that Islam teaches that Muslims should kill all the non-Muslims? No.

Yet you have no problem when people do the same towards Judaism.

Do you truly care about the truth, or is your agenda getting in the way?

as irrelevant as bringing up the Quran to the talmud?.. it is after what governs the practices of some people!
As relevant as showing how people attack them with lies in extremely similar ways.

I am not under the impression that anyone should be made to like something they find frankly distasteful.
What are you referring to that you find distasteful?
Reply

جوري
01-20-2010, 01:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
The purpose of this thread is obvious, to make people want to hate Jews and using the pretext of saying the Talmud tells Jews that non-Jews are subhuman, can be cheated and not payed, etc.

It has the same purpose as the ones started by people stating that the Quran is evil because it says things like "Muslims are taught by Islam to fight all non-Muslims" because the Quran says "9.123 “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you”.
Rather the purpose of the thread is to highlight contents in the talmud that others should be made aware of.. I for once don't understand for instance why the U.S funnels billions of dollars to fund a state that thinks the christian god is a son of a w hore.. can you?
Indeed said verse is in the Quran: [Pickthal 9:123] O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

the question is why do you want us to deny contents that is found in their book because you think it 'bigoted'?

Is it true that Islam teaches that Muslims should kill all the non-Muslims? No.
Depends.. warfare is part of every constitution for specific reasons!
Yet you have no problem when people do the same towards Judaism.
You keep thinking that I should have a problem when I clearly don't

Do you truly care about the truth, or is your agenda getting in the way?
Indeed I care for the truth, so why do you muffle it?


As relevant as showing how people attack them with lies in extremely similar ways.
Again, yet to prove that they are lies!


What are you referring to that you find distasteful?
passages that refer to holy people as W hores amongst others!


all the best
Reply

titus
01-20-2010, 04:59 PM
passages that refer to holy people as W hores amongst others!
It is not any more distasteful than calling the followers of a religion apes and pigs.

the question is why do you want us to deny contents that is found in their book because you think it 'bigoted'?
You keep mentioning the passages that I have no problem with while ignoring the passages that I do.

You want to maintain that Jews are taught that non-Jews are not human and that they are allowed to cheat non-Jews, among other things. That simply is not true.

You keep bringing up Israel without seeing how completely irrelevant it is. Saying that the actions of Israel supports these lies is the intellectual equal of saying that Muslim suicide bombers in crowded markets proves that Islam teaches it is perfectly fine to kill innocent bystanders.

If you want more links refuting these passages then please check these out:

Link

Link

Link

Indeed I care for the truth, so why do you muffle it?
Which truth am I trying to muffle? That Jews are evil and their religion teaches them to be that way?

If you truly cared for the truth you would admit that the accusations in that article about the Talmud are a lie.
Reply

جوري
01-20-2010, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
It is not any more distasteful than calling the followers of a religion apes and pigs.
It depends on your taste buds..




You want to maintain that Jews are taught that non-Jews are not human and that they are allowed to cheat non-Jews, among other things. That simply is not true.
Who knows right?



pictures do speak a thousand word..
You keep bringing up Israel without seeing how completely irrelevant it is. Saying that the actions of Israel supports these lies is the intellectual equal of saying that Muslim suicide bombers in crowded markets proves that Islam teaches it is perfectly fine to kill innocent bystanders.
It has great relevance since Israelis for the most part are jews.
If you want more links refuting these passages then please check these out:

Link

Link

Link
It doesn't refute them.. it does no more than state and I quote directly from your link:

there is no reason to assume that this refers to Jesus..

well then who is it referring to? considering the Jews on board didn't deny this, you are telling me that wiki outweighs the knowledge of actual Jews on board?


Which truth am I trying to muffle? That Jews are evil and their religion teaches them to be that way?
you need to work on some intermediate terms, you sound like a hysterical woman.
If you truly cared for the truth you would admit that the accusations in that article about the Talmud are a lie.
How can I? should I disbelieve what my eyes see?


all the best
Reply

titus
01-20-2010, 10:42 PM
pictures do speak a thousand word..
Yes, they do. Are you arguing that such pictures paint an entire religion? If that picture is supposed to represent what Jews are taught, then what does this picture say about Islam:





Do these signs represent Islam as much as the sign you posted represents Judaism?

well then who is it referring to? considering the Jews on board didn't deny this, you are telling me that wiki outweighs the knowledge of actual Jews on board?
Remember when I said I don't care about the passages about Jesus? I am referring to the passages that refer to non-Jews not being human and those that say Jews are allowed to cheat non-Jews. You keep ignoring the ones that I am referring to, which is a very poor way of avoiding admitting that the original post lied about the Talmud.

you need to work on some intermediate terms, you sound like a hysterical woman.
Name calling again? I am simply trying to get you to answer a direct question. You keep dancing around the issue instead of confronting it head on.

How can I? should I disbelieve what my eyes see?
If you can read then the passages are there for you to read. If you read the Talmud does it say that non-Jews are not human? Does it say that Jews are allowed to cheat non-Jews? Show us the context, Gossamer, then tell us what your eyes see.
Reply

جوري
01-20-2010, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Yes, they do. Are you arguing that such pictures paint an entire religion? If that picture is supposed to represent what Jews are taught, then what does this picture say about Islam:
who knows? perhaps you can run a formal survey and come back when you have substantial results?

Do these signs represent Islam as much as the sign you posted represents Judaism?
see previous reply!


Remember when I said I don't care about the passages about Jesus? I am referring to the passages that refer to non-Jews not being human and those that say Jews are allowed to cheat non-Jews. You keep ignoring the ones that I am referring to, which is a very poor way of avoiding admitting that the original post lied about the Talmud.
That is because whatever you are referring to is no point of interest to me, the point of interest is the one I personally presented. Perhaps you can direct your other queries/commentaries to the party directly involved with said quotes?



Name calling again? I am simply trying to get you to answer a direct question. You keep dancing around the issue instead of confronting it head on.
Name calling? has hysteria too been banned from the politically correct dictionary? hilarious.
let me get out my kid glove to handle you with.


If you can read then the passages are there for you to read. If you read the Talmud does it say that non-Jews are not human? Does it say that Jews are allowed to cheat non-Jews? Show us the context, Gossamer, then tell us what your eyes see.
see my comment two paragraphs ago. And generally try to focus on a point, so that you don't come across as hysterical but also a disjointed pedant!

all the best
Reply

titus
01-21-2010, 12:01 AM
who knows?
You posted the picture so only you can answer the question, but then you have shown you are quite adept at evasion.

That is because whatever you are referring to is no point of interest to me, the point of interest is the one I personally presented.
You are the one that said "The original thread isn't filled with lies". I pointed out the lies and gave links, which you asked for, to back that up.

Now you want to say you don't care? You are fooling nobody.

Name calling? has hysteria too been banned from the politically correct dictionary? hilarious.
let me get out my kid glove to handle you with.
I understand that it is difficult, if not impossible, for you to have a discussion without insulting and name calling so I should not have brought it up. I hope that some day you and I may actually be able to have an intelligent discussion without the immaturity.

And generally try to focus on a point, so that you don't come across as hysterical but also a disjointed pedant!
Again, you said that the original post contained no lies. It is full of them.

You said "I care for the truth", then turn around and imply that you don't care if people lie about the Talmud. You said "the purpose of the thread is to highlight contents in the talmud that others should be made aware of".

If the purpose of this thread is to educate people about the Talmud, and those statements are lies, and you care about the truth then how can you continue to ignore the lies in the original post?
Reply

جوري
01-21-2010, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You posted the picture so only you can answer the question, but then you have shown you are quite adept at evasion.
How can I possibly know how everyone feels?

You are the one that said "The original thread isn't filled with lies". I pointed out the lies and gave links, which you asked for, to back that up.
You haven't actually backed up what I asked for, nor are the links you provided of any relevance, third party info. from wikipedia is hardly a source on Jewish theology.

Now you want to say you don't care? You are fooling nobody.
Indeed I don't!


I understand that it is difficult, if not impossible, for you to have a discussion without insulting and name calling so I should not have brought it up. I hope that some day you and I may actually be able to have an intelligent discussion without the immaturity.
You haven't been in hysterics? forgive me then, and what a sad thing for that to be your baseline!


Again, you said that the original post contained no lies. It is full of them.
see statement number II

You said "I care for the truth", then turn around and imply that you don't care if people lie about the Talmud. You said "the purpose of the thread is to highlight contents in the talmud that others should be made aware of".
Indeed, and I think that has been established to some satisfaction!
If the purpose of this thread is to educate people about the Talmud, and those statements are lies, and you care about the truth then how can you continue to ignore the lies in the original post?
see statement II


all the best!
Reply

titus
01-21-2010, 03:26 AM
You haven't actually backed up what I asked for, nor are the links you provided of any relevance
I provided a link written by a Rabbi (Gil Student) in addition to others.

If sources are important in order to refute the statements, then what is the source of the original post that made the accusations?

You should ask yourself why you require no burden of proof from those that say the Talmud tells Jews they can cheat and kill non-Jews, but won't even take the word of a Rabbi when they are refuted. I think that explains all your posts and where exactly you are coming from.

You don't care about the truth. You have already decided what your "truth" is and you won't let facts or research get in the way.

If you truly care about the truth then read the Talmud (which you obviously have not) where such claims are made. Examine the sources of these claims. Examine what kind of sites propagate these claims. Then get back with me on how reliable they are for dispensing knowledge about Judaism and Islam.

I would provide the links but they are not appropriate for a Muslim forum since they spread lies about Islam with almost as much venom as they do about Judaism.

You haven't been in hysterics?
Nope. I think by reading both of our posts it is obvious who the one is who is resorting to name calling and insults.

Peace.
Reply

جوري
01-21-2010, 03:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I provided a link written by a Rabbi (Gil Student) in addition to others.

If sources are important in order to refute the statements, then what is the source of the original post that made the accusations?

You should ask yourself why you require no burden of proof from those that say the Talmud tells Jews they can cheat and kill non-Jews, but won't even take the word of a Rabbi when they are refuted. I think that explains all your posts and where exactly you are coming from.

You don't care about the truth. You have already decided what your "truth" is and you won't let facts or research get in the way.

If you truly care about the truth then read the Talmud (which you obviously have not) where such claims are made. Examine the sources of these claims. Examine what kind of sites propagate these claims. Then get back with me on how reliable they are for dispensing knowledge about Judaism and Islam.
The link you provided, had absolutely nothing to do with what I queried. You were dying from the get go to project your angst toward another member out on me, and sadly you always come up empty, so you repeat yourself ad-nauseam in hopes at some point, I'll cave in to your pedantry!

Either way, whether they have certain views to rebut whatever is written overtly or covertly, actions sill do speak louder than words, and certainly the latest organ theft in Haiti shows how much regard to human life and the sanctity toward those 'gentiles'!

I would provide the links but they are not appropriate for a Muslim forum since they spread lies about Islam with almost as much venom as they do about Judaism.
What is the point of this? you really must ask yourself if you are driven by a purpose, because I really couldn't give a **** what you think I should feel under great duress of political correctitude!



Nope. I think by reading both of our posts it is obvious who the one is who is resorting to name calling and insults.

Peace.
To me it is obvious that you are a man in hysterics. Try to make a list of what your needs are, and if we can't amicably reach the same point, then pls do learn when to call it quits..


all the best
Reply

Ramadhan
01-21-2010, 04:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
It is not any more distasteful than calling the followers of a religion apes and pigs.
This is a lie. Get your so called "facts" straight before you launched any accusation against the Qur'an, because it will definitely make you look like an unlearned person.
There is nothing in the qur'an that calls jews as pigs and monkeys.
Allah indeed has turned some into pigs and monkeys for their grave disobedience, but never called them pigs and monkeys.


This is the verse that you may have referred to QS. 5:60:





Muhsin Khan
Say (O Muhammad SAW to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hell-fire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)."
Pickthall
Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
Yusuf Ali
Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
Reply

titus
01-21-2010, 05:57 AM
The link you provided, had absolutely nothing to do with what I queried.
You said the original post was the truth. I provided a Rabbi saying it was not. It absolutely pertained to your post.

You, though, always refuse to admit when you are wrong, as though this was some contest between me and you instead of discovering the truth.

Either way, whether they have certain views to rebut whatever is written overtly or covertly, actions sill do speak louder than words, and certainly the latest organ theft in Haiti shows how much regard to human life and the sanctity toward those 'gentiles'!
Sure they do. I know many Jews and not a one of them is an amoral organ thief.

You have an obvious hatred of Jews so no matter how many facts you are confronted with you will justify in your mind why it is acceptable to hate them. Deny it all you want, but it is obvious to anyone who can read your posts. You are not one to let facts get in the way of your opinion.

You are no different than the person that believes all Muslims are bad people because of Al Qaeda and suicide bombers, you just have a different target. It makes it easier to despise them if you believe they are taught by their religion to be amoral, therefore you refuse to acknowledge the lies spread about them.

This is a lie. Get your so called "facts" straight before you launched any accusation against the Qur'an, because it will definitely make you look like an unlearned person.
There is nothing in the qur'an that calls jews as pigs and monkeys.
Allah indeed has turned some into pigs and monkeys for their grave disobedience, but never called them pigs and monkeys.
Naidamar, what you say may be correct, but that does not stop some Muslims from calling them that anyway and saying the Quran backs them up. HERE is a link giving an example. I think anyone with any decency would find this video distasteful.

From reading the Quran and the quotes in context it seems obvious to me that it does not call all Jews apes and pigs, just this small group. Others on this thread, though, refuse to do the same with the Talmud that would show them the truth about what it actually says instead of defending those that make ludicrous statements about it.
Reply

Ramadhan
01-21-2010, 06:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Naidamar, what you say may be correct, but that does not stop some Muslims from calling them that anyway and saying the Quran backs them up. HERE is a link giving an example. I think anyone with any decency would find this video distasteful.

From reading the Quran and the quotes in context it seems obvious to me that it does not call all Jews apes and pigs, just this small group. Others on this thread, though, refuse to do the same with the Talmud that would show them the truth about what it actually says instead of defending those that make ludicrous statements about it.

You can always find followers from any religions calling the others names and claim that they are backed by their holy scriptures.
But this is not what you (and sister skye) were doing. You were comparing whats written in the scriptures.

So, you should stick to what's written in the scriptures instead of what the followers say about each others.
And if anyone has any problem with the talmud verses that are made available here, then let them refute verse by verse and tell us if those verses do not exist in the talmud.
Reply

titus
01-21-2010, 08:13 AM
And if anyone has any problem with the talmud verses that are made available here, then let them refute verse by verse and tell us if those verses do not exist in the talmud.
Why is the burden of proof on the accused instead of the accuser?

I have posted links of educated Jews explaining what the Talmud says. I have even posted a link of the entire Talmud. People need to read the source and then see if they will come here and say the same things.

Instead, what we have here is someone starting a thread by copying and pasting an article that can be found on numerous hate websites. Then every Muslim member of this forum that I have seen so far has said that these "facts" are true until proven false, instead of asking the original poster to show proof that they are true, all while completely ignoring every link I have posted (including the one that prints the entire Talmud).

You can always find followers from any religions calling the others names and claim that they are backed by their holy scriptures.
The Talmud is not a holy scripture. It is written account of discussions about codes and morals.

The Torah is the Jewish holy scripture.
Reply

Ramadhan
01-21-2010, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Why is the burden of proof on the accused instead of the accuser?

I have posted links of educated Jews explaining what the Talmud says. I have even posted a link of the entire Talmud. People need to read the source and then see if they will come here and say the same things.

Instead, what we have here is someone starting a thread by copying and pasting an article that can be found on numerous hate websites. Then every Muslim member of this forum that I have seen so far has said that these "facts" are true until proven false, instead of asking the original poster to show proof that they are true, all while completely ignoring every link I have posted (including the one that prints the entire Talmud).
I actually have checked most of what is written in the op against talmud made independently available on the internet, and while the op is simplification, but the gist remain the same.

it must be maddening for the jews whose own talmud and torah contain so many verses and rules which are not so politically correct these days while found nothing in the Qur'an that they can destroy.


The Talmud is not a holy scripture. It is written account of discussions about codes and morals.

The Torah is the Jewish holy scripture.
I stand corrected. But still the laws contained in the talmud is the basis and foundation of the jewish nation.
And it doesn't change the fact that you were talking about the books (talmud, qur'an) and then when it was convenience for you, you exclaimed:
"but there are muslims who say things I found distasteful and they claim it's backed with the qur'an!"
Reply

جوري
01-21-2010, 01:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You said the original post was the truth. I provided a Rabbi saying it was not. It absolutely pertained to your post.
and there is certain truth in it indeed which is yet to be refuted by an a Jew and not some third party individual via wiki.
BTW I notice that you repeatedly dodge the son of a w hore passages for passages that I haven't mentioned and take the circuitousness route to allege that it is what I'd meant to say, when in fact I haven't at all.. why focus on a straw-man for dear life every time... How pathetic are you?
You, though, always refuse to admit when you are wrong, as though this was some contest between me and you instead of discovering the truth.
How is it wrong? I don't need to have any knowledge at all of their book contents to base my opinion solely on their actions globally. in fact when a number of Muslims are terrorists (if they truly are) it isn't at all as significant as a number of Jews, given that there are billions of us and 13 million of them.. Do some math before you open your yap with some concocted similes ey?
Are you also going to deny the Haganah, Irgun and the stern gang? their very foundation are terrorist organizations, making your quips about Muslims, oh so petty!


Sure they do. I know many Jews and not a one of them is an amoral organ thief.
Perhaps they are just the recipient of it then?

You have an obvious hatred of Jews so no matter how many facts you are confronted with you will justify in your mind why it is acceptable to hate them. Deny it all you want, but it is obvious to anyone who can read your posts. You are not one to let facts get in the way of your opinion.
I loathe Israel, IDF, the zionist agenda and their supporters yes, I didn't think it was a big mystery. But I don't hate 'Jews' they are human beings and a people of the book!

You are no different than the person that believes all Muslims are bad people because of Al Qaeda and suicide bombers, you just have a different target. It makes it easier to despise them if you believe they are taught by their religion to be amoral, therefore you refuse to acknowledge the lies spread about them.
Maybe indeed.. whatever the case, I believe that I have clarified that I don't care to correct any stereotypes, so perhaps your efforts would be better channeled to Daniel Pipes, or Spencer? You'll have quite an uphill battle and your efforts are rather wasted here, especially on me!

All the best
Reply

titus
01-21-2010, 02:27 PM
And it doesn't change the fact that you were talking about the books (talmud, qur'an) and then when it was convenience for you, you exclaimed:
"but there are muslims who say things I found distasteful and they claim it's backed with the qur'an!"
You are correct and sorry if I offended.
How is it wrong? I don't need to have any knowledge at all of their book contents to base my opinion solely on their actions globally.
Then simply say you don't like them and let it be. Don't try to defend lies about the Talmud when you obviously know nothing about it.

BTW I notice that you repeatedly dodge the son of a w hore passages for passages that I haven't mentioned and take the circuitousness route to allege that it is what I'd meant to say, when in fact I haven't at all.. why focus on a straw-man for dear life every time... How pathetic are you?
I have already mentioned those passages and said I do not care about them. They may be true. To me those passages are nothing more than religious name calling if they are true, and scholars disagree on whether they refer to Jesus or not.

The passages I claim are lies you brought absolutely no shred of proof to back up. Can you even tell me the author of these claims? Yet you defend them.

Are you also going to deny the Haganah, Irgun and the stern gang? their very foundation are terrorist organizations, making your quips about Muslims, oh so petty!
So bad Jews exist, therefore this is somehow supposed to back up your argument that the original post is true? The Stern gang has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Talmud says that Jews are allowed to cheat non-Jews. Straw man indeed.
Reply

Uthman
01-21-2010, 02:34 PM
Please debate respectfully. No calling other members 'pathetic' etc.
Reply

جوري
01-21-2010, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus


Then simply say you don't like them and let it be. Don't try to defend lies about the Talmud when you obviously know nothing about it
.

I'll say what I want to say, not what you desire to be said!

I have already mentioned those passages and said I do not care about them. They may be true. To me those passages are nothing more than religious name calling if they are true, and scholars disagree on whether they refer to Jesus or not.
it doesn't matter because that was my focus all along, which you shifted to make the usual non-points!

The passages I claim are lies you brought absolutely no shred of proof to back up. Can you even tell me the author of these claims? Yet you defend them.
I don't need to back them up since I didn't post them to begin with, and again, even if they don't exist the reality of things is that they need not be written down for one to observe them in real life!


So bad Jews exist, therefore this is somehow supposed to back up your argument that the original post is true? The Stern gang has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Talmud says that Jews are allowed to cheat non-Jews. Straw man indeed.
Neither do Muslims 'terrorists'-- I enjoy a red-herring as much as the next guy, but I think you've milked it for all you can and it is time for you to find another object to reform or get a new hobby..


all the best!
Reply

titus
01-21-2010, 03:19 PM
I don't need to back them up since I didn't post them to begin with, and again, even if they don't exist the reality of things is that they need not be written down for one to observe them in real life!
Then please, in the future, do not come claiming such accusations to be fact.

it doesn't matter because that was my focus all along, which you shifted to make the usual non-points!
My focus was always on the ones that I knew were not true. I never mentioned those passages when talking about the ones that were lies. Read this thread again Skye and you will see.

I don't need to back them up since I didn't post them to begin with, and again, even if they don't exist the reality of things is that they need not be written down for one to observe them in real life!
If your hatred is justified then justify it with facts, not with made up fallacies about the Talmud.
Reply

جوري
01-21-2010, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Then please, in the future, do not come claiming such accusations to be fact.
A 'fact' is what the eye can see, not what is written on papers!


My focus was always on the ones that I knew were not true. I never mentioned those passages when talking about the ones that were lies. Read this thread again Skye and you will see.
And my focus was on the ones that I knew were true. Read again and you will see!

all the best
Reply

titus
01-21-2010, 03:35 PM
A 'fact' is what the eye can see, not what is written on papers!
If you claim the papers say one thing when they actually say another, that is a lie.

And my focus was on the ones that I knew were true. Read again and you will see!
You said:

"The original thread isn't filled with lies"

Do you still stand by that? Is the original post completely accurate?
Reply

جوري
01-21-2010, 03:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
If you claim the papers say one thing when they actually say another, that is a lie.
How is it a lie?
You said:

"The original thread isn't filled with lies"

Do you still stand by that? Is the original post completely accurate?
It is not a statement of integrality but in part, and as such the most important is what you have chosen to repeatedly ignore!

I think you need to take your head out of the 'All' 'none' 'always' 'never' affirmations, as they not only reflect poorly on you to project your own ideas into another when at a loss for something to work with but it is very pedantic as well-- didn't they teach you in grade school that you can shouldn't make a statement of absolution? you have much to learn and I am not the one who shall be expending effort teaching you. firstly because you fail to rouse my interest and secondly because it is a frank waste of my time..


all the best
Reply

titus
01-21-2010, 04:17 PM
It is not a statement of integrality but in part
So you admit that it is a mixture of lies and truth?
Reply

جوري
01-21-2010, 04:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
So you admit that it is a mixture of lies and truth?
No! as stated previously, I don't share a platform with you and don't have pedantic approach to the world around me..


all the best
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titus
01-21-2010, 04:35 PM
If by pedantic you mean I am concerned with the truth, then you bet I am.

If someone can read such a topic that tries to convince you that a religion is evil and teaches its followers they are allowed to cheat and kill people who are not a member of their religion without questioning it then we know that the truth is irrelevant to them.
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جوري
01-21-2010, 04:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
If by pedantic you mean I am concerned with the truth, then you bet I am.
.
No, by pedantic I mean: Marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects.


all the best
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Muslim Woman
01-22-2010, 04:30 PM
Salaam / Peace


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
..If someone can read such a topic ......the truth is irrelevant to them.

I did not read the whole thread. Pl. let me know about the Truth.

Jews holy books don't have any verse that shows disrespect to Jesus and his virgin mother pbut or order them not to show mercy or save alive nothing ?

I asked about the link where i can find the whole books of jews ...don't know if anyone has posted that or not .
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Shahreaz
01-24-2010, 09:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam / Peace

I did not read the whole thread. Pl. let me know about the Truth.

Jews holy books don't have any verse that shows disrespect to Jesus and his virgin mother pbut or order them not to show mercy or save alive nothing ?

I asked about the link where i can find the whole books of jews ...don't know if anyone has posted that or not .
Salam MW, They openly mock/insult Jesus [pbuh] & Mary in their TV shows. Just see these videos;

israeli tv humiliating Christianity by making fun of Jesus and Mary
jesus and holly mary are insulted and humiliated in israel
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Rabi Mansur
01-24-2010, 10:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shahreaz
Salam MW, They openly mock/insult Jesus [pbuh] & Mary in their TV shows. Just see these videos;

israeli tv humiliating Christianity by making fun of Jesus and Mary
jesus and holly mary are insulted and humiliated in israel
I think you can find TV shows in about any society that have comedies making fun of all religions...but back to the Talmud...check out this link.

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html

It discusses how the Talmud deals with Jesus(PBUH) and whether those passages really are saying anything about Jesus(PBUH). Hope it helps.
There doesn't seem to be a concensus among the scholars that the passages are describing Jesus of Nazareth (PBUH).

:wa:
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Muslim Woman
01-24-2010, 04:05 PM
Salaam/Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
I think you can find TV shows in about any society that have comedies making fun of all religions

No , u will never see Muslims are degrading any Prophet pbut.
Do Jews make fun of Moses pbuh ?
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Rabi Mansur
01-25-2010, 12:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/Peace




No , u will never see Muslims are degrading any Prophet pbut.
Do Jews make fun of Moses pbuh ?
On Saturday Night Live I've seen Jews make fun of Moses(p). Of course, they are secular Jews most likely.

Were the Jews making fun of Jesus(p) on the show posted above, Orthodox Jews? I doubt it. It was probably just a comedy show from Israel.

My point is that in most societies, you will see comedy shows making fun of all religions. If you are offended, you don't have to laugh or even watch. It is part of having free speech. The media is not controlled by religions in most countries.

:wa:
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جوري
01-25-2010, 12:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur

My point is that in most societies, you will see comedy shows making fun of all religions. If you are offended, you don't have to laugh or even watch. It is part of having free speech. The media is not controlled by religions in most countries.

:wa:
There is nothing 'freeing' about libel and slander or a society or a people that have no reverence!

peace
Reply

titus
01-25-2010, 07:39 AM
No , u will never see Muslims are degrading any Prophet pbut.
Maybe not, but can you imagine them ridiculing Hindu beliefs, or Buddhist beliefs, or Scientology? Most certainly. I have seen it happen on other forums.

There is nothing 'freeing' about libel and slander or a society or a people that have no reverence!
Libel or slander? Where has that happened?

Is it libel if someone writes that they don't believe your Prophet? Is it slander if someone says that they don't believe Jesus was the son of God? I think it is pure hyperbole to call making fun of someones beliefs slander or libel.

If you are so concerned about libel and slander then why do you not care if someone starts a thread lying about Judaism? (Oh, that's right, it's only Jews and they deserve it....)

Freedom is a two way street. You have the freedom to say whatever you want about Judaism, and other people have the right to say whatever they want about Islam... or Christianity, or any other religion.
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Predator
01-25-2010, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
On Saturday Night Live I've seen Jews make fun of Moses(p). Of course, they are secular Jews most likely.

Were the Jews making fun of Jesus(p) on the show posted above, Orthodox Jews? I doubt it. It was probably just a comedy show from Israel.

My point is that in most societies, you will see comedy shows making fun of all religions. If you are offended, you don't have to laugh or even watch. It is part of having free speech. The media is not controlled by religions in most countries.

:wa:
For many muslims, we love our Prophets more than we love ourselves.
And the act of israeli media was obviously inciting hatred, and they knew 100% what they are doing.

If the concept is still not clear to you, let me give you a picture which may clarify the matter to you:
How would you feel if your local news channel made fun of your mother as the biggest ***** in your hometown and your father as a moronic pimp?
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جوري
01-25-2010, 02:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus


Libel or slander? Where has that happened?

Is it libel if someone writes that they don't believe your Prophet? Is it slander if someone says that they don't believe Jesus was the son of God? I think it is pure hyperbole to call making fun of someones beliefs slander or libel.

If you are so concerned about libel and slander then why do you not care if someone starts a thread lying about Judaism? (Oh, that's right, it's only Jews and they deserve it....)

Freedom is a two way street. You have the freedom to say whatever you want about Judaism, and other people have the right to say whatever they want about Islam... or Christianity, or any other religion.
libel and slander fall under a false and malicious publication printed for the purpose of defaming and slander are words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another. Like nasty cartoons about the prophet as an ex.

I have no reason to speak out against something where the party concerned hasn't bothered to clarify.

And ultimately it is true, the Zionists have you advocating for them in every possible allowing fashion, if you could help them eradicate every last one of us you would in fact, I see no point at all joining forces with human devils!

all the best
Reply

Rabi Mansur
01-26-2010, 04:05 AM
If the concept is still not clear to you, let me give you a picture which may clarify the matter to you:
How would you feel if your local news channel made fun of your mother as the biggest ***** in your hometown and your father as a moronic pimp?
If they were no longer alive there would be nothing I could do about it. You cannot slander a deceased person. The law can do nothing about that. If they were still alive, then the libel and slander laws would apply.

Now, are you asking me would I be offended? Of course. Would I be offended at someone making fun of Mary and Jesus(p)? Yes of course I would, and I have been offended by some of the depictions of them in our culture.

But I can choose to boycott the channel, turn it off, change the channel, ignore it, write letters to the paper, complain to the sponsors, etc.

Perhaps I just don't understand the level of your outrage since I'm not Muslim, and if I did, maybe I would be taking a different position. I mean no disrespect to you at all.

:wa:
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Muslim Woman
01-26-2010, 04:22 PM
Salaam/Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Maybe not, but can you imagine them ridiculing Hindu beliefs, or Buddhist beliefs, or Scientology? Most certainly. I have seen it happen on other forums.

.

I never saw / heard of any programee on TV in any Muslim majority country mocking Rama or Buddha or other religious figures.
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titus
01-26-2010, 06:00 PM
libel and slander fall under a false and malicious publication printed for the purpose of defaming and slander are words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another. Like nasty cartoons about the prophet as an ex.
Or lying about a religious text to damage the reputation of all the followers of that religion?

And ultimately it is true, the Zionists have you advocating for them in every possible allowing fashion, if you could help them eradicate every last one of us you would in fact, I see no point at all joining forces with human devils!
Thank you for providing such an excellent example of libel.
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جوري
01-26-2010, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Or lying about a religious text to damage the reputation of all the followers of that religion?
If you can prove that it is lies!

Thank you for providing such an excellent example of libel.
The condition of verity of events renders 'libel' moot in this case!

all the best
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titus
01-26-2010, 06:29 PM
The condition of verity of events renders 'libel' moot in this case!
Verity is not your forte. Insults are.

This is just another glaring example. You cannot argue the facts so you lie and claim that I want to see every Muslim in the world killed.

You, of course, have no facts to back up your claim. It is completely fictive and exists only in your head.
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جوري
01-26-2010, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Verity is not your forte. Insults are.
Not at all, but I understand that, that is the crutch you like to reach for when your arguments are so ailing!
This is just another glaring example. You cannot argue the facts so you lie and claim that I want to see every Muslim in the world killed.
Here is an adequate assessment of your own approach, and demonstrated beautifully throughout this thread!
You, of course, have no facts to back up your claim. It is completely fictive and exists only in your head.
I can only work with what you write, so if you are big on fiction yourself, what can I do with the distillate that draws from fatuity?!



all the best (as always :shade:)
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Asiyaah
01-26-2010, 06:43 PM
I think we must be careful not to paint all Jews with the same brush. Also one has to be very careful when dealing with translations of the Talmud. The Talmud should be studied in Hebrew and requires a lifetime of dedication and study. From my understanding there are currently no reliable english translations.
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titus
01-26-2010, 06:54 PM
I can only work with what you write, so if you are big on fiction yourself, what can I do with the distillate that draws from fatuity?!
You can back up what you have to say. Claiming that I want all Muslims killed is a serious allegation and I defy you find one quote from me that even comes close to supporting your fatuous claims.
Reply

Muezzin
01-27-2010, 09:55 PM
Ya know, folks, if civil discussion is exhausted, I could just close the thread...

If not, please continue. In a civil manner.
Reply

Predator
02-06-2010, 11:02 PM
O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status

Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel
Saudi Foreign minister was spot with his criticism when he said

"Israel has become in the international community like a spoiled child," he said. "It does what it wants without being questioned or punished."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1139365.html
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titus
02-07-2010, 02:03 PM
Airforce, have you not read any of my posts or checked out any of the links I posted?

These "quotes" are all either misinterpretations or outright lies.

If you have an issue with Israel then so be it, but that does not mean you should believe lies about their religion, much less help spread those lies.
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Predator
02-11-2010, 07:06 PM
These "quotes" are all either misinterpretations or outright lies.
How is that a lie ? They can do whatever they want and no one is allowed to oppose them .

And I suppose the below verses of insult to Mary and Jesus are also the video are also lie too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma4zgSXpFgE

Insults Against Blessed Mary

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a *****: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.


Jesus in the Talmud:

Horrible Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ

While it is the standard disinformation practice of apologists for the Talmud to deny that it contains any scurrilous references to Jesus Christ, certain Orthodox Jewish organizations are more forthcoming and admit that the Talmud not only mentions Jesus but disparages him (as a sorcerer and a demented sex freak). These orthodox Jewish organizations make this admission perhaps out of the belief that Jewish supremacy is so well-established in the modern world that they need not concern themselves with adverse reactions.

For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following statement, complete with Talmudic citations:

"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene':

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."

If you have an issue with Israel then so be it, but that does not mean you should believe lies about their religion, much less help spread those lies.
I dont give a crap if you love israel so much and If it makes you sick , you are welcome to take an epic walk through the door and go join in another forum , as long as you come here to try to defend these satanists , i will have fun proving you wrong
Reply

Uthman
02-11-2010, 08:58 PM
Let's calm down now, people!
Reply

titus
02-12-2010, 01:06 PM
How is that a lie ? They can do whatever they want and no one is allowed to oppose them .
I have posted multiple links already explaining this. Please take the time to look them over. Take the time to actually read the Talmud before blindly believing something you read on the internet.

And I suppose the below verses of insult to Mary and Jesus are also the video are also lie too
Not being a Christian I don't care. There are differences of opinion on whether those refer to Jesus and Mary or not, and whether they do or not I don't care. I don't understand why you, as a Muslim, would be so upset at another religion for trashing another religion.

After all, don't you revere a prophet who went a smashed the idols of another religion?

I dont give a crap if you love israel so much and If it makes you sick , you are welcome to take an epic walk through the door and go join in another forum , as long as you come here to try to defend these satanists , i will have fun proving you wrong
Uthman is right. You need to calm down. (I read the original post before it was slightly cleaned up)

For one thing I do not "love" Israel. I do happen, though, to be friends with many Jews (and Muslims) and I can tell you that they are not evil and that they would laugh in your face if you told them their religion tells them they can deal unfairly with other people or even rob and kill someone if they aren't Jewish. Their religion teaches just the opposite.

Your problem is that you hate Israel so much that you cling on to any negative thing about Jews you can find on the internet. You want to hate Jews so badly that you want to believe their religion teaches them they can rob and kill non-Jews.

I will provide this particular link again in hopes that you read it and understand it.

Link 1

Link 2

Check out the second link then ask yourself if you really want the truth about Judaism or are you simply looking for another excuse to hate Jews. It is written by a Rabbi, not a hate group.

If I want the truth about Islam should I ask an Imam or an anti-Muslim hate group? If you want the truth about Judaism should you ask a Rabbi or trust an anti-Jewish hate group?
Reply

Predator
02-12-2010, 07:31 PM
There are differences of opinion on whether those refer to Jesus and Mary or not, and whether they do or not I don't care.
When Gossamer asked you the question earlier , you tried to be evasive
Why would you care , you have no feelings of remorse or shame whatsoever

I bet you would even enjoy your local news channel making fun of your mother as the biggest ***** in your hometown and your father as a moronic pimp

I don't understand why you, as a Muslim, would be so upset at another religion for trashing another religion.
You make no sense , Jesus is our Prophet and Mary his mother are greatly honoured in Islam.
For many muslims, we love our Prophets more than we love ourselves.
And the act of israeli media was obviously inciting hatred, and they knew 100% what they are doing.


After all, don't you revere a prophet who went a smashed the idols of another religion?
Abraham was commanded by God and he did what God told him to do and by smashing those idols he obeyed God as it only God that deserves to be worshipped and not some pieces of stone which be the fuel for the hellfire in the hereafter.

Uthman is right. You need to calm down. (I read the original post before it was slightly cleaned up)
Corrections ,its you who needs to calm down because you said you wanted to "throw up". Read your very first post , where you said

Posts like this make me want to throw up.

For one thing I do not "love" Israel.
Of course you do and thats is why you are obsessed in coming here and in defending their evil actions


I do happen, though, to be friends with many Jews (and Muslims) and I can tell you that they are not evil and that they would laugh in your face if you told them their religion tells them they can deal unfairly with other people or even rob and kill someone if they aren't Jewish
The laugh is on them , these Zionist evil Jews are the ones who attack other religion

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6953281.ece

and burn books and steal land which does not belong to them ,

You want to hate Jews so badly that you want to believe their religion teaches them they can rob and kill non-Jews.
Thats exactly what the Zionist Jews are doing to the Gentiles ( Muslims and Christians) killing them and stealing land .They are doing a holocaust of the arabs .

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine.html

They read satanic stuff like the Talmud and then their mind become satanic


According to american proverb"You are what you eat and you are what you read"

Zionist Jews drink the blood of Muslims and by reading more devilish stuff like the Talmud , the jewish mind become devilish

The Talmud may not be the Holy book like the Torah but its pretty evident from their actions that the Zionist Jews follow the teachings Talmud seriously and that pretty much confirms the generalisation of most of the Zionist Jews
Reply

JoshuaD
02-12-2010, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
and burn books and steal land which does not belong to them ,
Muslims have done the exact same thing in Kosovo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItONcp0nlyo

http://www.kosovo.net/destruction.html

http://www.kosovo.net/fisk.html

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=...rthodox-church

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fiw2Dntuh8Q
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titus
02-13-2010, 01:15 PM
Abraham was commanded by God and he did what God told him to do and by smashing those idols he obeyed God as it only God that deserves to be worshipped and not some pieces of stone which be the fuel for the hellfire in the hereafter.
And Jews believe that Jesus was a prophet as much as Muslims believe in those idols.

You have a double standard when it comes to respecting other religions. You demand that people treat your prophets with respect, yet honor those prophets for desecrating other peoples religions.

Zionist Jews drink the blood of Muslims
Only the Zionist Jews? I thought you are claiming that all Jews are taught that stealing and killing is part of their religion.

Jews drink Muslim blood? If you truly believe this then then you are beyond help. Your hatred is beyond reason and rationality. Good luck in life.
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Predator
02-13-2010, 02:33 PM
And Jews believe that Jesus was a prophet as much as Muslims believe in those idols.
If they believe then why would they make fun of the Prophet and reject him as an imposter and write **** about him in the Talmud

And you wonder why the muslims, anti-semitist white supremists and most of the world despises you..


The Bible claims that the Jews are GOD's "Chosen People".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwXyI...om=PL&index=36

Yet, neither Moses nor Jesus nor several other Prophets liked the Jews!


The old Jewish trick about Jews received the highest number of Prophets which then makes them GOD Almighty's "Chosen People" is nothing but a deception. In fact, it is a bad thing for the Jews that GOD Almighty kept sending them Prophets who many of them ended up getting killed anyway by the Jews themselves according to the Saying of Jesus peace be upon him below. We need to know that neither Moses nor Jesus nor many of the Prophets in the Bible really liked Jews! Let us look at the following:

From Moses:

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)"

From Jeremiah:

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

From Jesus:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"

The Jews were corrupt! They corrupted the Word of GOD Almighty. Like Jeremiah 8:8, the Noble Quran clearly states it:

"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews ) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). (The Noble Quran, 5:13)"

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"

Perhaps, that is why Allah Almighty decided to end His Message/Revelations with the Arabs, the other part of the Middle Eastern society that has not been polluted and unhampered by the burden of age-old prejudicies.


No race, color or gender are chosen by GOD Almighty in Islam. Everyone is evaluated by his Good Deeds.


Allah Almighty Said in the Noble Quran:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"

the idea of "Chosen People" is a Jewish lie that was fabricated and inserted into the Bible to make the People of Israel be the Superior over all nations. The Bible, however, admits that it got corrupted by the Jews themselves, thus making their bogus claims get flushed right down the toilet.

The Jews had corrupted the Bible:

As I mentioned above, let us look at what GOD Almighty Said to the Jews in the Bible:

"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

We clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws and fabrications, that they had turned the Bible into a lie! See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death. The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.


Only the Zionist Jews?
I thought you are claiming that all Jews are taught that stealing and killing is part of their religion.
I never said all Jews are taught stealing and killing , i only meant the deceptive transgressors

"Of the people of Moses (i.e., the Jews) there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (The Noble Quran, 7:159)"


The above Noble Verses clearly speak about the righteous Jews , believe in God Almighty and do righteousness and will have their Great Reward and enter Paradise.

Most of the Jews are perverted transgressors, deceiving, in some cases are hypocrites, and most of them are considered Truth rejecters! Let us look at the following Noble Verses:

"Ye [Muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (The Noble Quran 3:110)"

Jews drink Muslim blood? If you truly believe this then then you are beyond help.
The drink is a figure of speech used to imply their massacres of the Muslims .BTW , they do have a thirst and lust for blood

http://www.answering-christianity.co...ual_murder.htm

Your hatred is beyond reason and rationality.
And your support for the Zionists (those Perverted Transgressors which the Quran mentioned ) who are inviting their own destruction is beyond reason and rationality ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejoIgFsmqxA

May God guide you to the right path
Reply

titus
02-14-2010, 01:36 PM
If they believe then why would they make fun of the Prophet and reject him as an imposter and write **** about him in the Talmud
Read what I said again. My point was that they don't believe he was a prophet any more than Abraham believed those idols were gods.

And you wonder why the muslims, anti-semitist white supremists and most of the world despises you..
Despise me? Who do you think I am now?

Yet, neither Moses nor Jesus nor several other Prophets liked the Jews!
This is a joke. right? You are seriously trying to convince people that Moses hated Jews? Are you that far gone into your hatred that you actually believe that, or think you can convince others to believe it? That is not any different that when your Prophet said that his people would be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one?

And your support for the Zionists (those Perverted Transgressors which the Quran mentioned ) who are inviting their own destruction is beyond reason and rationality ,
Please find one quote in which I support Zionists. I am simply clearing up lies about the Talmud.

You hate Jews and back that up by quoting the Quran and saying that your religion teaches you that most non-Muslims are "perverted transgressors" and therefore worthy of that hate.

You try and convince people that Moses and Jesus hated Jews,and then explain how your religion teaches you to hate them to? Lovely.
Reply

Oleander
02-21-2010, 07:25 PM
Did Jesus loved the Jews?

According to the Christians Bible, Jesus didn't.

He called them the children of the devil, and the prophets killer.

If you love someone do you call him a devil, and devil worshiper?
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titus
02-21-2010, 07:32 PM
He called them the children of the devil, and the prophets killer.
Can you provide the verses in which this happened and the context?
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Oleander
02-21-2010, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Can you provide the verses in which this happened and the context?

>>>Well let's start with:



“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”
Reply

titus
02-22-2010, 03:43 AM
I asked for the context and verse, but that will work I guess. John 8:44.

Read the context. He was talking to the Pharisees and was talking about anyone that did not believe what he was saying, not just Jews. Read in context I find it hard to see how one could read into this that Jesus was saying he hated Jews.

All of his disciples were Jews, as were his family. Don't you think it strange that he would select his primary followers to be people he thought were "children of the devil"?

I am not even a Christian and I find that idea absurd.
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Oleander
02-22-2010, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
All of his disciples were Jews, as were his family. Don't you think it strange that he would select his primary followers to be people he thought were "children of the devil"?


>>>Good, but what about those Jews who didn;t believe in him, and killed him? Did they still the children of God?

I never meant to say he was talking to his followers, but he was talkinig to the Jews who didn:t believe him.

I am not even a Christian and I find that idea absurd.

>>>Is this what you call love:

Matt. 8:11 “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
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titus
02-22-2010, 06:15 AM
Muslims believe that everyone not a Muslim, like myself, will go to Hell, correct?

Does that mean that Allah hates Christians and Jews?

It seems you are really reaching to try and justify why other people should hate Jews like you do.
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Oleander
02-22-2010, 07:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Muslims believe that everyone not a Muslim, like myself, will go to Hell, correct?

Does that mean that Allah hates Christians and Jews?


>>>Silly question. Turn it around abd ask any Christians were Muslim will go, and come back with an answer.

It seems you are really reaching to try and justify why other people should hate Jews like you do.
>>>God loves whoever obey him, and hates whoever disobey him, period.
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Amadeus85
02-22-2010, 08:00 PM
Interesting thing that I found recently.

Father Justin Bonaventura Pranajtis.


Father Justin Bonaventura Pranajtis was born in 1861 in polish - lithuanian border. He had lithuanian roots, but he felt Pole. In 1883 he was sent to Roman Catholic Empreror's Priesthood Academy in Petersburg. In 1886 he finished study and became a priest. He was mostly studying hebraic language, he became famous hebraist. In 1895 he was forced to leave Petersburg by tsarist administration. After come back, he again became the teacher of hebraic in academy. In 1902 he left academy and became parson of Turkiestan. In 1916 father Pranajtis came to Petersburg and he got sick. He was palced in hospital. He said to his friend, father Jan Cieplak that he believes to be poisoned. Father Pranajtis began to loose weight fast and he died in 28th January 1917.

Father Pranajtis learnt 3 languages of jewish sacred books - hebrew, arameic and chaldeic. He wrote a book - "Christianus in Talmude Iudaeorum" (1892). A christian in jewish talmud. It was wrote in latin. It was translated into many languages.


The case of Bejlis.

12th March a boy Andrzej Juszczynski was murdered in Kiev, Ukraine. The suspect was jewish butcher Mendel Bejlis. The murder had all examples of ritual kill. The tsarist departament of justice chose father Pranajtis as the religious councilor. He was chose as the best expert of Talmud in Russia. Some jewish groups, knowing Pranajtis' knowledge of Talmud tried to stop father's work. First they were offering him money. Since this argument failed, father Pranajtis began to be spied. He were getting threats. The "progressive" newspapers were in****ing him.


During this campaign against father Pranajsit, even serious world players decided to involve in this case. Londoner banker Rothschild went to Vatican, H. Sliosberg to Petersburg. Despite that the case was still on in court. F. Pranajtis explained the judge even the number of ritual cuts and their kinds based on Talmud. After about 6 months of work, f. Pranajtis gave a raport. It was so shocking that the case was sudennly stopped by Petersburg administration. Banker Mendelsohn, which was asked for a loan of money to russian state, conditioned the giving of loan by discontinuance of Bejlis case . Despite this, the Kiev court decided to be honest. The final decision gave two asnwers - Was the murder a ritual? Answer - Yes. Second, was Bejlis the killer? No, not enough arguments.


The ritual murder - was hapenning always the same way - by making always same wounds to bleed the victim - child.


Many specialists say that since the ritual murder is against mainstream jewish teaching, it was an act of extreme sectarian group.


http://www.naszawitryna.pl/ksiazki_105.html

(Since you all know the language very well...:) )
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Lynx
02-22-2010, 08:49 PM
I just read this thread (well most of it).


Titus:

Lol. You had a good run on this thread. You actually took apart every post that was made against you.

Understandably, tt's an emotionally charged topic when it comes to Jews. It's just upsetting when people are quoting HITLER and agreeing with Hitler. You did a good job ~.~
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Hugo
02-22-2010, 08:59 PM
This seems a rather odd thread if I may say so and although it is not conclusive if you go to Wikepedia there is a picture of a set of volumes for the Talmud. If you go to Amazon which is somewhat more certain you can buy any number of books on the Talmud and copies of it or parts of it.

It is in fact a commentary and supplement to the Mishnah - a book of law and traditions and it has been around since 200ce and since it comes from an oral tradition it seems to me its anything but secret.
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Predator
02-23-2010, 12:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Muslims believe that everyone not a Muslim, like myself, will go to Hell, correct?

.
Wrong again , we do not beleive that each and every non-muslim will go to hell
You exemplify the characteristics of an islam hating troll who has not truly studied the religion .

Non-Muslims who never heard the message of Islam are known as ahl al-fatrah.

God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

People who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeY6i...om=PL&index=36

God knows best who has heard His message properly and rejected it and who has not done so.
The most we can say that it is obligatory for all people to accept Islam and that anyone who knowingly rejects the truth of Islam is before dying would be condemned in the Hereafter .

And , it is actually not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment . We must trust in Him.
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Hugo
02-23-2010, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE]
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Wrong again , we do not beleive that each and every non-muslim will go to hell.You exemplify the characteristics of an islam hating troll who has not truly studied the religion .
And you exemplify self-righteousness in your answer to a simple question because you think it seems that any one who asks a question about Islam must in some sense be a bit on the dim side or hates Islam and that implies perhaps a kind of paranoia on your part?

Non-Muslims who never heard the message of Islam are known as ahl al-fatrah. God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

People who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell.
There seems to be a contradiction here unless your interpretation of the verse is at fault or it only talks about Islam. One assumes there have been millions who were never sent a messenger so according to the verse they cannot be punished because they cannot obey commands of which they know nothing? On that basis it is seems safer never to know anything about Islam?.

God knows best who has heard His message properly and rejected it and who has not done so. The most we can say that it is obligatory for all people to accept Islam and that anyone who knowingly rejects the truth of Islam is before dying would be condemned in the Hereafter .

And , it is actually not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment . We must trust in Him.
I just need to be clear here - does this mean according to you that EVERY Muslim will go to heaven? If so we seem to have another contradiction because if we are each judged individually what is the value of becoming a Muslim, I can lead a perfectly honest, holy and good life without that so as it stands from what you say there is no advantage in Islam?
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Grace Seeker
02-23-2010, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Wrong again , we do not beleive that each and every non-muslim will go to hell
You exemplify the characteristics of an islam hating troll who has not truly studied the religion .

Non-Muslims who never heard the message of Islam are known as ahl al-fatrah.

God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

People who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell....

And , it is actually not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment . We must trust in Him.

What is your personal response to non-Muslims who have heard Prophet Muhammad's message but still are not convinced that it is the truth and instead follow other religions, particularly Christianity? Is it your hope that we burn in hell? Or is it your hope that we might some day revert to Islam?

Is there an "Islamic" response to this, or is it up to each individual Muslim to respond as he/she personally feels?
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thetruth2009
02-23-2010, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
What is your personal response to non-Muslims who have heard Prophet Muhammad's message but still are not convinced that it is the truth and instead follow other religions, particularly Christianity? Is it your hope that we burn in hell? Or is it your hope that we might some day revert to Islam?

Is there an "Islamic" response to this, or is it up to each individual Muslim to respond as he/she personally feels?

Peace upon you Grace seeker, Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.


What I notice in the Quran there is only one religion From Adam to the prophete Mohamed SWS.

No 3 religions but only one.


Allah, Elohim, God call him how you wants he has the best name, send Prophetes and messengers in each community.

Moses, Jesus, Mohamed SWS are all sent by the same god no ?

The bible, the Quran was sent by god in language understood by these community no ?

Can you Imagine the Quran in Arabic sent to Jews or christians, they will say to god you send us a book that we do not understand, no ?

The Quran is sent to correct the Bible not to cancel it, if you think so, that mean Allah SWT does not know what is doing ?

That mean Allah SWT is sending prophetes to destroy what the previous prophetes had brought ? it is not logical ?????


What I notice we are very far away from what God asking us, we want to be above others.

Jews they think they will go to paradise others will go to hell

Christians they think they will go to paradise others will go to hell

Muslims they think they will go to paradise others will go to hell



How its possible, only Elohim, Allah, God knows best, we are not god to judge anybody.


Assalam aleykoum sisters and brother.
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Grace Seeker
02-23-2010, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
The Quran is sent to correct the Bible not to cancel it
Is this not what I said above with regard to the NT and the OT?


Christians believe that the Law as understood by the Jews of Jesus' day had become corrupted. What God has actually will for his people was not in error, but the way in which people followed it. So, Jesus can and corrected the misunderstandings of what was meant by it. He also expanded God's covenant that had been made initially with just Jews to include the whole world. This new covenant did not have, nor did it need to have, the same ceremonial rules that the covenant God made with the nation of Israel. Thus, because the nature of the covenant that God made with people in the NT is different than that which he made with Israel in the OT, the specific rules for being identified as part of that covenant would also be different. But the overall principle which guide all of these covenants would be the same because it is the same God with whom the covenant is made. Jesus helps to move us from the specific commands of "thou shalt do this and shalt not do that" to the principled commands, "Love God, and love others." It is on this higher moral law that all the specifics spelled out in the Law and the Prophets hang. So, if you live by the principle of Loving God and lovinig others, you will truly keep Torah, even though you may not keep some of the ceremonial laws that were established to identify a person as a Jew like circumcision or dietary restrictions. Those things are not of the same level of importance as the overarching law to Love God and love others that Jesus sets forth.

If you think that Allah cannot make different rules for different groups of people, then you are saying that you think you know better than Allah as to what Allah can and cannot do.
Reply

Lynx
02-24-2010, 05:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Wrong again , we do not beleive that each and every non-muslim will go to hell
You exemplify the characteristics of an islam hating troll who has not truly studied the religion .

Non-Muslims who never heard the message of Islam are known as ahl al-fatrah.

God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

People who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeY6i...om=PL&index=36

God knows best who has heard His message properly and rejected it and who has not done so.
The most we can say that it is obligatory for all people to accept Islam and that anyone who knowingly rejects the truth of Islam is before dying would be condemned in the Hereafter .

And , it is actually not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment . We must trust in Him.
Come on, he said 'like myself' so presumably as someone who posts on this board talking to you guys he has been informed of the message of Islam. Lol.
Reply

Predator
02-24-2010, 12:57 PM
What is your personal response to non-Muslims who have heard Prophet Muhammad's message but still are not convinced that it is the truth and instead follow other religions, particularly Christianity?
What isnt convincing for you ? Let us take Chapter 112 of the Quran the fundamental . "Allah is one and only , absolute eternal , does not beget and neither begotten and there is none like him " Could you explain how that is not convincing ?and then again there are further signs such as these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTxZLB7qTS8

And No as a Muslim , I dont wish for any innocent person to burn in hell . I would only hope for people revert to Islam for their own good in the hereafter and do rightous works .

Come on, he said 'like myself' so presumably as someone who posts on this board talking to you guys he has been informed of the message of Islam. Lol.
Read his post , he said the word " who are not muslims " and not "rejecters of islam" , will burn in hell which includes people who have never had a chance to heard about Islam and even innocent such as includes children. and that is not true


One assumes there have been millions who were never sent a messenger so according to the verse they cannot be punished because they cannot obey commands of which they know nothing? On that basis it is seems safer never to know anything about Islam?.
That is just your assumption but God clearly tells us that he has sent a warner to every nation and tribe to worship him alone . By tradition , it is said that There were more than 150000 prophet sent on the face of the earth of which Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was the last one .
If they havent heard the message in order to not reject then they will be tested on the day of judgement and depending on that , they will either go to heaven or hell. he will thus not punish a person unjustly without any warning whatsoever as it would be like punishing an innocent . Just see the example of Adam and Eve We must trust God as God is just and all knowing


I just need to be clear here - does this mean according to you that EVERY Muslim will go to heaven?
No, Not every Muslim will go to heaven , There are many who associate partners to God by praying to the dead and that is shirk - an unforgivable sin if not repented before dying . Please do Check this out

http://www.truthexposed.co.uk/Dargah...s%20Shirk.html

Other Muslims who believed and worshipped Allah alone ,but committed which other major and minor sins exceeded the number of their good deeds would be punished in hell for a limited time period depending upon the amount of sins and after the time is over and they will be granted heaven and thats why they its simply VITAL for everyone to believe that Allah is the One and only God and only one worthy of worship, glorification and supplication .


If so we seem to have another contradiction because if we are each judged individually what is the value of becoming a Muslim, I can lead a perfectly honest, holy and good life without that so as it stands from what you say there is no advantage in Islam?
Can you elaborate a bit more on that ?
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Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
And No as a Muslim , I dont wish for any innocent person to burn in hell . I would only hope for people revert to Islam for their own good in the hereafter and do rightous works .
So then it was not as a Muslim that you sent the following message to me
You're a typical christian coward who runs from God laws reasoning and logic and practiceand worships Paul the satanist who allows pork and alcohol. I hope you burn in hell along with your Paul whose rear end you kiss
Your words are full of hate in a way that is not becoming one who claims to seek guidance and follow Islam.

Nevertheless, I wish you peace. May you learn what it is to be a genuine keeper of true Islam, and not just a particular religious code.
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Predator
02-24-2010, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So then it was not as a Muslim that you sent the following message to me

Your words are full of hate in a way that is not becoming one who claims to seek guidance and follow Islam.

Nevertheless, I wish you peace. May you learn what it is to be a genuine keeper of true Islam, and not just a particular religious code.
So then it was not as a Christian that you sent the following message to me

You've become a broken record. So scratched you're no longer worth listening to.
Your words are also full of hate that is not becoming one who claims to be Christian Pastor who has joined this forum to get an understanding about Islam.

Nevertheless, I hope Allah guides you to the truth . May you learn what it is to be a genuine keeper of the teachings and practices of Jesus who you call your Lord and not regret for having blindly followed a False Prophet Paul just because his agenda suits your whims and desires which could actually be harmful for you in the end

And regarding the point , if you dont repent and realise you're wrong and you continue to reject the truth , you will be punished in this world or in the hereafter thats what is written in your book and i said i wouldnt hope for "innocent persons" punished in hell , innocent is one who doesnt get the message and is thus not guilty . You on the other hand had been given more than enough proofs in this forum of how the wine and pork are killers and are forbidden on both books(Quran and Bible) and the science and stats of crimes due to drunkness have also confirmed the same and yet if you cant understand that an say its all legal , then God help you .
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 03:56 PM
No. I own those words. Your words have become a broken record. Telling you this is, I think, entirely consistent with the Christian principals of sharing the truth in love. In the thread where I said that of you, you continued to repeat the same thing without ever giving evidence that you even bothered to listen to what others were saying. I don't believe that leads to edifying anyone. And I would hope for better for you than that.

As to my emotional feeling toward you. Uncomfortable would best describe it. I find you difficult, accusatory, and contentious in conversation. But I don't hate you. I only hate the feeling I get in the pit of my stomach when I read the venon with which you direct your writings toward those who disagree with you. And then I feel a sort of pity, for I sense that you don't even see this side of yourself. And I find that sad.

When you have something new to say, as you did in this thread, then I make an effort to once again listen and hear what you have to say. I may not agree, but I want to hear it so that I may better understand where each individual on this forum is coming from.

So, where are you coming from? Is your desire to witness to your own faith? To beat down those of different faiths? To wish people to hell? Or to undersand others who are different than you and love them to a new and better life? I see all in your writing but the last.
Reply

Predator
02-24-2010, 04:38 PM
To beat down those of different faiths?
No not to beat down , more about comparing faiths and then trying to figure out where its could be going wrong as I beleive there is only one God and thus it would be thus only be one religion from the Start.

To wish people to hell?
Yes you're right i shouldnt have said that .Few posts can happen in a fit of rage and i am sorry . I should have just told politely to leave those proven evils like alcohol else you will end up digging your own grave in the end

Or to undersand others who are different than you and love them to a new and better life
How can you to expect to respect proven evils such as Alcohol,Gambling, Pork , Adultery , homosexuality etc which are also infact prohibted in your book as well and then love the people who practice them.
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Hugo
02-24-2010, 05:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
What isnt convincing for you ? Let us take Chapter 112 of the Quran the fundamental. "Allah is one and only, absolute eternal , does not beget and neither begotten and there is none like him " Could you explain how that is not convincing ?and then again there are further signs such as these
But can't you see that I or anyone else can quote a scriptural verse, say from the Bible, and say to you "what is'nt convincing? What is not convincing is that one has to accept there is a God, he has the characteristics you say he has and that the Qu'ran is his message to mankind - all of which is unprovable that is why it is matter of faith.

That is just your assumption but God clearly tells us that he has sent a warner to every nation and tribe to worship him alone . By tradition , it is said that There were more than 150000 prophet sent on the face of the earth of which Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was the last one .
Yes it is an assumption and can be nothing else as we have no information as far as I know from many ancient civilisations. You make another assumption although you call it tradition about the number of prophets and I think mine about millions who have never heard is the more solid one.

Other Muslims who believed and worshipped Allah alone, but committed which other major and minor sins exceeded the number of their good deeds would be punished in hell for a limited time period depending upon the amount of sins and after the time is over and they will be granted heaven and thats why they its simply VITAL for everyone to believe that Allah is the One and only God and only one worthy of worship, glorification and supplication.
I can't really make sense of this as it seems to be about God keeping some kind of account book for each of us with every good deed getting plus points and every bad deed negative ones and one hope we are in credit with God. This tells me that no Muslim has any certainty of heaven because they cannot know what their score (I mean no disrespect but cannot think of any other way to say it) is with God can they? It also feel unjust - for example, if I had done many many good deeds and then I murdered someone I don't think any court anywhere would let me off because I had built up a good deeds portfolio?
Can you elaborate a bit more on that ?
I think I said IF we all have to stand before God at the last day and be judged individually, then there seems no advantage in being a Muslim, it brings no benefit as far as getting to heaven is concerned. Let me put it like this suppose you and I are roughly equivalent in out Good works etc I then as a Christian commit murder and you as a Muslim do the same then when we stand before God it would surely be unjust of him to say "oh, you are a Muslim, I'll let you off' (or vice versa).
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جوري
02-24-2010, 05:06 PM
Does it really matter where any of us think you are going or where you belong? That is your cross to bear and it is certainly something you are going to have to defend (should there be a day of recompense)!

Indeed, المشنا will be read as if common and complimentary, when you have a bird brain and can't distinguish whether sleeping with your daughters is a sin, you'll also not argue against very volatile passages against your own god!

all the best
Reply

Predator
02-24-2010, 05:48 PM
But can't you see that I or anyone else can quote a scriptural verse, say from the Bible, and say to you "what is'nt convincing? What is not convincing is that one has to accept there is a God, he has the characteristics you say he has and that the Qu'ran is his message to mankind
Could you explain what is so convincing when the religion actually does have several similarities in your Bible as well .

http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch...milarities.htm

all of which is unprovable that is why it is matter of faith.
Could you explain What is unprovable

And what about the absurdities and other unprovable facts in the Bible

http://www.answering-christianity.co...bsurdities.htm


Yes it is an assumption and can be nothing else as we have no information as far as I know from many ancient civilisations. You make another assumption although you call it tradition about the number of prophets and I think mine about millions who have never heard is the more solid one
Its isnt an assumption by Muslims

To every nation was sent a Guide or a Messenger
Al-Qur'an 35:24
Al-Qur'an 13:7


According to a Sahih Hadith in Mishkatul Masaabih Vol. 3 hadith No. 5737 Ahmad Ibn Hambal Vol. 5 page 265-266: “There were 1,24,000 prophets sent by Allah (swt).”

Yes i stand corrected about the number but every nation was sent a Messenger and thats what matters


I can't really make sense of this as it seems to be about God keeping some kind of account book for each of us with every good deed getting plus points and every bad deed negative ones and one hope we are in credit with God. This tells me that no Muslim has any certainty of heaven because they cannot know what their score (I mean no disrespect but cannot think of any other way to say it) is with God can they? It also feel unjust - for example, if I had done many many good deeds and then I murdered someone I don't think any court anywhere would let me off because I had built up a good deeds portfolio?
I think I said IF we all have to stand before God at the last day and be judged individually, then there seems no advantage in being a Muslim, it brings no benefit as far as getting to heaven is concerned. Let me put it like this suppose you and I are roughly equivalent in out Good works etc I then as a Christian commit murder and you as a Muslim do the same then when we stand before God it would surely be unjust of him to say "oh, you are a Muslim, I'll let you off' (or vice versa).
A good deed is rewarded 10 times , whereas the a minor bad deed is punished . Murder comes next to Shirk (associating partners to God)
Murder can be forgiven compensated the victim , truly repented and also if the victim forgives you for your action then you can be forgiven if God wills it else you will punished for a limited time in the hellfire
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Yes you're right i shouldnt have said that.
Thank-you. I accept your apology.

Few posts can happen in a fit of rage and i am sorry.
I understand. When one feels passionately, as we nearly all do, words sometimes slip out that we would rather not have said.

I should have just told politely to leave those proven evils like alcohol else you will end up digging your own grave in the end.
Did you know that I don't drink? Never have.


How can you to expect to respect proven evils such as Alcohol,Gambling, Pork , Adultery , homosexuality etc which are also infact prohibted in your book as well and then love the people who practice them.
I don't respect evil. But I do love the people, even if practice evil. I believe that God specifically calls me to do that, just as he does.

I know you quoted from Hosea earler (this thread or another, I'm not going to double check), what I think you missed is that God directed Hosea to marry Gomer and to love her, despite Gomer's infidelity, because he was a living example, a prophet re-enactment if you will, of God's faithful love to fallen, idolatrous and adulterous Israel.
Reply

Uthman
02-24-2010, 06:36 PM
Shall we get back on topic now? :)

Is there even a topic to get back on to?
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Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
Is there even a topic to get back on to?
From the OP:
Non-Jews, in particular Muslims and Christians, should be aware of how Jesus (peace be upon him) and his blessed mother Maryam are depicted in the Jewish "holy" book Talmud.
I think we are. Despite the title of this thread, the book isn't secret. Some on here have given links to it. It is indeed written from a Jewish persepctive, and depending when in history that particular portion one is reading from is written, it is not going to be complimentatry toward anything having to do with Christiantiy, that includes Jesus.
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Hugo
02-24-2010, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Indeed, المشنا will be read as if common and complimentary, when you have a bird brain and can't distinguish whether sleeping with your daughters is a sin, you'll also not argue against very volatile passages against your own god!

all the best
Is the referring to some weird Islamic law like the one about the Prophet marrying his adopted son's ex wife?
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جوري
02-24-2010, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Is the referring to some weird Islamic law like the one about the Prophet marrying his adopted son's ex wife?
I have no idea what this means? Also there is no adoption in Islam, only sponsorship! .. folks marry and divorce all the time modern day it doesn't equate to man worship nor father sleeping and impregnating his daughters amongst other absurdities!

all the best
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Hugo
02-24-2010, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have no idea what this means? Also there is no adoption in Islam, only sponsorship! .. folks marry and divorce all the time modern day it doesn't equate to man worship nor father sleeping and impregnating his daughters amongst other absurdities!

all the best
I am asking what on earth you are talking about here with regard to man worship or impregnating daughters?
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جوري
02-24-2010, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I am asking what on earth you are talking about here with regard to man worship or impregnating daughters?
and I am asking you what on earth does:

Is the referring to some weird Islamic law
mean or has anything to do with the topic?..
in fact what I wrote is of utmost relevance, if you accept strange occurrences in your bible that are utterly demeaning to God's chosen messengers as fact, then you have no reservations whatsoever if the talmud or Mishna refer to Mary as a (.....) or her son as (.......)!

all the best
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Hugo
02-24-2010, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
in fact what I wrote is of utmost relevance, if you accept strange occurrences in your bible that are utterly demeaning to God's chosen messengers as fact, then you have no reservations whatsoever if the talmud or Mishna refer to Mary as a (.....) or her son as (.......)!

all the best
The Bible contains many factual stories and those stories do not always show the characters involved in a good light and in its own way that itself is a testimony to their verity.

If you take the view that all God's messengers are without sin then I consider that to be an absurd position to take without a shred of evidence to support it and if anything demeans God this assertion does, it puts God in a position that he somehow owes us something, we deserve his favour.

The Mishna and its supplement the Talmud records all kind of things including the traditions and no one but an idiot would assume they are all true or correct but they may well be useful to see how a religion develops and of course they help with refuting error. They are not unlike your hadith which also contain to my mind very odd not to say fanciful stories, the Qu'ran itself has strange stories as well such as the cave or such things as Prophet Mohammed's heart being removed and washed with snow - in short I cannot see you are making any valid point and so far what you say has zero relevance
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جوري
02-24-2010, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
The Bible contains many factual stories and those stories do not always show the characters involved in a good light and in its own way that itself is a testimony to their verity.
Really?
How can lay people distinguish facts from fiction? with errors as these to name a few:
2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." 2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death" 2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul" 2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..." 1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..."

If you take the view that all God's messengers are without sin then I consider that to be an absurd position to take without a shred of evidence to support it and if anything demeans God this assertion does, it puts God in a position that he somehow owes us something, we deserve his favour.
I have no idea what this gibberish means? surely folks who are delegated to the highest spiritual paths should be able to fulfill that and not by falling into worse sin than the smote sinners. Now, mistakes can be made by messengers, there is no doubt, but not cardinal sins!

The Mishna and its supplement the Talmud records all kind of things including the traditions and no one but an idiot would assume they are all true or correct but they may well be useful to see how a religion develops and of course they help with refuting error. They are not unlike your hadith which also contain to my mind very odd not to say fanciful stories, the Qu'ran itself has strange stories as well such as the cave or such things as Prophet Mohammed's heart being removed and washed with snow - in short I cannot see you are making any valid point and so far what you say has zero relevance
Things that deal with the unseen differ greatly from passages that deal with every day life. Whether or not the prophet's heart was purified has no bearing on any other aspect of Islamic jurisprudence, monotheism, politics, etc.
and if you'd bother actually read the story of the those in the cave, you'd have gleaned at least one mathematical and one medical sign and a counsel in the form of:

18: 26 Say: "God knows best how long they remained [there]. His [alone] is the knowledge of the hidden reality of the heavens and the earth: how well does He see and hear! No guardian have they apart from Him, since He allots to no one a share in His rule!"


in other words, the number of years was never the moral of the story...
Islam really is light years away from the christian dark ages!

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
and I am asking you what on earth does:


mean or has anything to do with the topic?..
in fact what I wrote is of utmost relevance, if you accept strange occurrences in your bible that are utterly demeaning to God's chosen messengers as fact, then you have no reservations whatsoever if the talmud or Mishna refer to Mary as a (.....) or her son as (.......)!

all the best

First, I would argue that every single person is God's chosen messenger. We all have the responsibility to bear the light that we have each received to the degree that we have received it (and all, even the pagans, have received at least some) and share that light with all others whom we might come into contact in this world.

Second, I would also argue that (save Jesus) there is none righteous, no not one. And this includes the prophets. They, no less than the rest of us, are human and have from time to time been guilty of sin. That statement does not demean them any more than it does when you point out my sins. To demean them would be to ascribe a sin to them that is not true. But simply to report the truth with regard to the reality of their sins is not, IMHO, demeaning. To deny that the prophets have ever sinned, seems to me a denial of reality. It does not follow from what we know to be true of human beings. Now, if your scriptures say it is so, then I understand you will accept it as so. But to me, if your scriptures say it is so, then it is just one more bit of evidence of the imperfectness of those scriptures.

Third, as for what the Talmud says about Jesus or anyone else, I don't really care. I don't accept the Talmud as being anything other than informational about how Jews at different points in their history have viewed certain things. At times it is helpful in providing background understanding to the scriptures that I do accept. And it may also be helpful in providing a better understanding of the views and ways of thinking that Jews have today. But it isn't the source I go to when looking for the absolute truth with regard to the nature and character of Jesus, Mary, or anyone else. The best it can do is give subjective truth. So, if it says that Mary was a harlot, I deal with that the same as I do when the Qur'an says that Jesus is something less than he really is. I consider the source.
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جوري
02-24-2010, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
First, I would argue that every single person is God's chosen messenger. We all have the responsibility to bear the light that we have each received to the degree that we have received it (and all, even the pagans, have received at least some) and share that light with all others whom we might come into contact in this world.
You are free to make up rules as you go along

Second, I would also argue that (save Jesus) there is none righteous, no not one. And this includes the prophets. They, no less than the rest of us, are human and have from time to time been guilty of sin. That statement does not demean them any more than it does when you point out my sins. To demean them would be to ascribe a sin to them that is not true. But simply to report the truth with regard to the reality of their sins is not, IMHO, demeaning. To deny that the prophets have ever sinned, seems to me a denial of reality. It does not follow from what we know to be true of human beings. Now, if your scriptures say it is so, then I understand you will accept it as so. But to me, if your scriptures say it is so, then it is just one more bit of evidence of the imperfectness of those scriptures.
Is that why Luther saw him as thrice the adulterer?
Third, as for what the Talmud says about Jesus or anyone else, I don't really care. I don't accept the Talmud as being anything other than informational about how Jews at different points in their history have viewed certain things. At times it is helpful in providing background understanding to the scriptures that I do accept. And it may also be helpful in providing a better understanding of the views and ways of thinking that Jews have today. But it isn't the source I go to when looking for the absolute truth with regard to the nature and character of Jesus, Mary, or anyone else. The best it can do is give subjective truth. So, if it says that Mary was a harlot, I deal with that the same as I do when the Qur'an says that Jesus is something less than he really is. I consider the source.
Well, I am glad you don't care what the talmud says it matters to Muslims though to combat lies not nod to them

all the best!
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Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
surely folks who are delegated to the highest spiritual paths should be able to fulfill that and not by falling into worse sin than the smote sinners. Now, mistakes can be made by messengers, there is no doubt, but not cardinal sins!
If Adam, who was created without sin, living in an unspoiled enviroment that was in God's own words not just "good", but "very good", and given unfettered free will to follow God could still misuse that freedom to seek his own will rather than that of God his creator, then I cannot see why it would be hard to believe that God's later messengers who lived in a world that was already out of God's will to likewise not just make mistakes but to actually turn from God's will as well. This does not mean that God could not still use them, and that they would never submit to God. But the idea that there was never any rebellion in them, or that they should never have sought their own will instead of God's will, I find to stretch creduality by that which I am willing to accept.
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Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 10:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Is that why Luther saw him as thrice the adulterer?
I'm unfamiliar with the reference. Who did Luther see as "thrice the adulterer"?
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جوري
02-24-2010, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I'm unfamiliar with the reference. Who did Luther see as "thrice the adulterer"?
Jesus! You have heard of table talk?

Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: "Whatever has he been doing with her?" Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died. (D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 - May 1, 1532, p. 33)
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جوري
02-24-2010, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If Adam, who was created without sin, living in an unspoiled enviroment that was in God's own words not just "good", but "very good", and given unfettered free will to follow God could still misuse that freedom to seek his own will rather than that of God his creator, then I cannot see why it would be hard to believe that God's later messengers who lived in a world that was already out of God's will to likewise not just make mistakes but to actually turn from God's will as well. This does not mean that God could not still use them, and that they would never submit to God. But the idea that there was never any rebellion in them, or that they should never have sought their own will instead of God's will, I find to stretch creduality by that which I am willing to accept.
There is a difference between mistakes and sins, especially when one is unaware of the value of say eating a fruit.. completely differs from sleeping with your daughters after being sent to warn people about sleeping with men!

all the best
Reply

Amadeus85
02-24-2010, 11:13 PM
Ok so the thing with jews is that when they rebuild their third temple the end of the world will begin. The antichrist will appear then.

The thing is also that judaism is younger than orthodox christianity (catholicism and greek orthodox). Judaism as we know today, the rabinic judaism began to be formed after the collapse of the second temple in Jerusalem in 70's A.D. From the monotheistic religion in Old Testament, religion of Israel, two religions were made - christianity and rabinic judaism.For the second one very important was the creating of books of talmud, in 4th and 5th century A.D.
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Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
There is a difference between mistakes and sins, especially when one is unaware of the value of say eating a fruit.. completely differs from sleeping with your daughters after being sent to warn people about sleeping with men!

all the best
Eating fruit that one has been told by God to not eat and sleeping with one's daughters that God says to not sleep with would both be sins, and equally so, in my book. Perhaps you have a different definition of sin, but I cal anything that falls short of God's purposes for our lives a sin. And I make no distinction how much they fall short as if that lessens any sin's severity. To human beings there may be a difference between "little white lies" and murder. But I don't think there is in God's eyes.
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جوري
02-24-2010, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Eating fruit that one has been told by God to not eat and sleeping with one's daughters that God says to not sleep with would both be sins, and equally so, in my book. Perhaps you have a different definition of sin, but I cal anything that falls short of God's purposes for our lives a sin. And I make no distinction how much they fall short as if that lessens any sin's severity. To human beings there may be a difference between "little white lies" and murder. But I don't think there is in God's eyes.

There are gradation of sins, some of them are cardinal again especially if one is sent to warn against that very crime.. although I do love the lengths you go to to defend something so abominable! .. another counter-intuitive problem with Christianity that is apparent to everyone except Christians!

all the best
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Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 11:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Jesus! You have heard of table talk?

Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: "Whatever has he been doing with her?" Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died. (D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 - May 1, 1532, p. 33)
Luther has been known to say a few strange things, but this would take the cake. I have a copy of Table Talk, but never got around to reading it. I may have to now; especially as, in doing a search of it online, I couldn't find the references you claim where Jesus is supposed to have committed adultery. What exactly does Luther say that leads you to believe that Luther saw Christ as an adulterer?

Table Talk, by Martin Luther
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Grace Seeker
02-24-2010, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
There are gradation of sins, some of them are cardinal again especially if one is sent to warn against that very crime.. although I do love the lengths you go to to defend something so abominable! .. another counter-intuitive problem with Christianity that is apparent to everyone except Christians!

all the best
Catholics would agree with you that there are gradations of sins. But I do not. I find the idea that there are just a way for sinners to make themselves feel better about there sin. Seems we prefer to look at our sin as not as bad as what someone else has done, thus making us to feel good about ourselves. Rather, we should compare ourselves to God's standard of perfection and realize that we aren't. Then instead of falsely believing that we can pull ourselves up to God's level by our own bootstraps, we can begin to see that we can't reach God's standard of righteousness, but we might, by whollly relying on God, yet be made acceptable in his sight by his gift of mercy and grace, rather than by our own imperfect works.
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جوري
02-24-2010, 11:40 PM
Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: "Whatever has he been doing with her?" Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died. (D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 - May 1, 1532, p. 33)
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Luther has been known to say a few strange things, but this would take the cake. I have a copy of Table Talk, but never got around to reading it. I may have to now; especially as, in doing a search of it online, I couldn't find the references you claim where Jesus is supposed to have committed adultery. What exactly does Luther say that leads you to believe that Luther saw Christ as an adulterer?

Table Talk, by Martin Luther
I have already referenced you to a specific page, btw a direct translation taken from a christian website, why do insist on referencing me to the entire compendium.. why not go directly to the volume and page I have given you above?
I have to say your methods of deflection are getting tedious. I am not here to do your homework twice. First about your allegedly sinless god, of whom the reformers think of as an adulterer, and then then to find it again in the translation of your choosing!

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Catholics would agree with you that there are gradations of sins. But I do not. I find the idea that there are just a way for sinners to make themselves feel better about there sin. Seems we prefer to look at our sin as not as bad as what someone else has done, thus making us to feel good about ourselves. Rather, we should compare ourselves to God's standard of perfection and realize that we aren't. Then instead of falsely believing that we can pull ourselves up to God's level by our own bootstraps, we can begin to see that we can't reach God's standard of righteousness, but we might, by whollly relying on God, yet be made acceptable in his sight by his gift of mercy and grace, rather than by our own imperfect works.
Well if God is an adulterer then how can we hold ourselves to any moral standards? if God can't choose apostles to shoulder the responsibility after his death, how can pull ourselves by our own bootstraps? If god can't fulfill his commandments when he is alive and instead has to do it covertly through some nemesis, how can we trust what he actually wants of us?

The whole 'gift' of 'mercy and grace' is nice and all, but I see no incentive for one to live as 'close to sin free as possible' or sinning all the way, when god is gifting us all, well almost all, but not those who refuse to believe that he died for not eating our sins!

all the best
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Grace Seeker
02-25-2010, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have already referenced you to a specific page, btw a direct translation taken from a christian website, why do insist on referencing me to the entire compendium.. why not go directly to the volume and page I have given you above?
Because you did not provide a link, and I don't own that particular sourcebook. Either a link to the page you claim it is on or a better reference that I may find it in the source I do have would be most helpful. Short of that, it is you saying that Hermann Bohlau Verlag says Luther said something. What you allege Luther to have said, doesn't sound like an actual, in context quote from Luther. And given what you have provide I remain unable to verify its authenticity without more information.
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جوري
02-25-2010, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Because you did not provide a link, and I don't own that particular sourcebook. Either a link to the page you claim it is on or a better reference that I may find it in the source I do have would be most helpful. Short of that, it is you saying that Hermann Bohlau Verlag says Luther said something. What you allege Luther to have said, doesn't sound like an actual, in context quote from Luther. And given what you have provide I remain unable to verify its authenticity without more information.
I don't read nor understand German, so I don't know who is translating for you, cheery picking or not, it is all over the web, if you'd google or use the source used in the Quotes and not reference me to your desired renditions:

Quote:
Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.
(Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107)

Other quotes from Luther:


Quote:
“If Moses should attempt to intimidate you with his stupid Ten Commandments, tell him right out – chase yourself to the Jews”
(Martin Luther, Lecture at Wittenberg)

Quote:
"If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly . . . as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. . . . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day"
(Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521, American Edition, Luther's Works, vol. 48, pp. 281-82).

Quote:
“If we allow them - the Commandments - any influence in our conscience, they become the cloak of all evil, heresies and blasphemies”
(Comm. ad Galat, p.310).

Quote:
"Moses must ever be looked upon with suspicion, even as upon a heretic, excommunicated, ****ed, worse than the Pope and the devil"
(Commentary on Galatians).

Quote:
"I will not have Moses with his Law, for he is the enemy of the Lord Christ"
(Tischreden (Table Talk), L.C.12.s.17).

Quote:
"When the devil comes to tempt and harass you . . . indulge some sin in hatred of the evil spirit and to torment him . . . otherwise we are beaten if we are too nervously sensitive about guarding against sin . . . I tell you, we must put all the Ten Commandments, with which the devil tempts and plagues us so greatly, out of sight and out of mind."
(Table Talk in De Wette, 5.188; De Wette was a protestant scholar who collected the most significant sayings of Luther in several volumes).

Quote:
“I look upon God no better than a scoundrel”
(Weimar, Vol. 1, Pg. 487. Cf. Table Talk, No. 963)


Quote:
“I have greater confidence in my wife and my pupils than I have in Christ”
(Table Talk, 2397b)

Quote:
"Not for a thousand years has God bestowed such great gifts on any bishop as He has on me"
(Luther's Works, Erlangen ed., 61:422)

Quote:
“St. Augustine or St. Ambrosius cannot be compared with me.”
(Erlangen, Vol. 61, pg. 422.)

Quote:
"They are fools who attempt to overcome temptations [to lust] by fasting, prayer and chastisement. For such temptations and immoral attacks are easily overcome when there are plenty of maidens and women"
(Luther's Works, Jena ed., 1558, 2, 116; cited in P. F. O'Hare, "The Facts About Luther", Rockford, 1987, 311).

Quote:
"I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture"
(De Wette, 2.459).

http://forums.carm.org/v/showpost.ph...&postcount=168

and can also be found here, amongst others..

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=191368

Are Catholics heretics or are the protestants? :D
personally I think all of you are..

all the best
Reply

waqas maqsood
02-25-2010, 03:16 AM
Apparently the Talmud is like a puzzle... Got to decipher and work out the meaning...

I had a chance to look at the book and blimey... its straight forward and to the point.. Exactly whats mentioned in the 1st post and worst of course

And the worst part is their Rabbi is trying to prove all these accusation and doubters wrong... It is literally a filfthy book! Cannot be compared alongside the Torah...
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-25-2010, 03:19 AM
The only place that I can find Mary Magdalene even mentioned in Luther's "Table Talk" is:
God will have his servants to be repenting sinners, standing in fear of his anger, of the devil, death and hell, and believing in Christ. David says, “The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, and helpeth them that be of an humble spirit.” And Isaiah “Where shall my Spirit rest, and where shall I dwell? By them that are of humble spirit, and that stand in fear of my Word.” So with the poor sinner on the cross. So with St Peter, when he had denied Christ; with Mary Magdalene; with Paul the persecutor, etc. All these were sorrowful for their sins, and such shall have forgiveness of their sins, and be God’s servants.

The great prelates, the puffed up saints, the rich usurers, the ox drovers that seek unconscionable gain, etc., these are not God’s servants, neither were it good they should be; for then no poor people could have access to God for them; neither were it for God’s honor that such should be his servants, for they would ascribe the honor and praise to themselves.

In the Old Testament, all the first-born were consecrated to God, both of mankind and of beasts. The first-born son had an advantage over his brethren; he was their Lord, as the chief in offerings and riches, that is, in spiritual and temporal government; for he had a right to the priesthood and dominion, etc. But there are many examples in Holy Scriptures, where God rejected the first-born, and chose the younger brethren, as Cain, Ishmael, Esau, Reuben, etc., who were first-born; from them God took their right, and gave it to their younger brethren, as to Abel, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David, etc. And for this cause: That they were haughty, proud, and presuming on their first-birth, and despised their brethren, that were more goodly and godly than they; this God could not endure, and therefore they were bereaved of their honors, so that they could not boast themselves of their prior birth, although they were highly esteemed in the world, and were possessed of lands and people.

(The Table-Talk of Martin Luther, "Of God's Works", CIV, translated by William Hazlett, Philadelphia: The Lutheran Publication Society)

Having done some more research, I find the quote to which you refer is NOT part of Table-Talk. It is NOT even something publish by Luther, but rather by John Schlagenhaufen who reports it as a recollection of something Luther supposedly said informally at his Wittenberg dinner table in 1532. Today that story is included in the Weimare Ausgabe edition of Luthers Werke.

One can read more detail about this alleged statement in article in the Christian Century:
No one knows if Luther actually said this. The critical apparatus in the Weimar Ausgabe reveals the textual and grammatical problems in this supposed quotation. Schlagenhaufen recorded only a portion of what he remembered Luther to have said that day (and after how many beers?). No context is given.

Scholars know how difficult, if not impossible, it is to link the lapidary "table notations" of Luther's friends to Luther's own views. The editors of the American Edition speculate in a footnote that the "probable context is suggested in a sermon of 1536 (WA 41, 647) in which Luther asserted that Christ was reproached by the world as a glutton, a winebibber, and even an adulterer" (LW 54:154).

A more probable context is Luther's account of the atonement. One of his basic assertions is that our sins become Christ's and Christ's perfect righteousness becomes ours by faith. This idea of "the happy exchange" is found in many Luther texts. Given his central soteriological and christological concern, the theological irony in Schlagenhaufen's remembered notation becomes clearer: The "godly" Christ becomes or is made a sinner through his solidarity with sinners, even to the point of dying as a God-forsaken criminal on the cross. This is how Luther understood Paul's statement, "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Cor. 5:21).

So Christ "becomes" an adulterer, though he does not actually commit adultery with Mary or anyone else. He puts mercy front and center, and rejects the legalism which demanded that the woman caught in adultery be killed and the woman at the well and Mary Magdalene be shunned. The holy one becomes the sinner by putting himself into the situation of sinners, by loving and forgiving them, and ultimately by taking their sins on himself. For this gospel reason, Luther could also remark that God made Jesus "the worst sinner of the whole world," even though he also acknowledged that the sinless, righteous Christ actually committed no sin himself.

Trapped in a literalistic approach to Schlagenhaufen's contextless note, some readers have missed the metaphorical character of the remark, which Luther may have made, if he made it at all, with a twinkle in his eye. I'm confident that Luther would not be a fan of The Da Vinci Code--except perhaps with a beer in hand and that twinkle in his eye.

(What did Luther say? Jesus and Mary Magdalene, Christian Century, May 16, 2006 by Matthew Becker.)
But more to the point to what I had said previously (those who wonder where this started see post #123 on the previous page) , even if Luther really did see Jesus as "thrice an adulterer" (which I don't believe he did, and you're just grasping at straws to make such a claim), the scriptures proclaim that Jesus was in fact "without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). And I'll choose to except the testimony of scripture over that of either you or even Luther.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-25-2010, 03:28 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye


...“Christ committed adultery .... even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.
(Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107)
I am sad and angry imsad :heated: :cry: such a nasty allegation against our respected Prophet Jesus pbuh ? imsad
Reply

جوري
02-25-2010, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The only place that I can find Mary Magdalene even mentioned in Luther's "Table Talk" is:



Having done some more research, I find the quote to which you refer is NOT part of Table-Talk. It is NOT even something publish by Luther, but rather by John Schlagenhaufen who reports it as a recollection of something Luther supposedly said informally at his Wittenberg dinner table in 1532. Today that story is included in the Weimare Ausgabe edition of Luthers Werke.
John Schlagenhaufen is Luther's friend, why would he lie?

One can read more detail about this alleged statement in article in the Christian Century:


But more to the point to what I had said previously, even if Luther really did see Jesus as "thrice an adulterer" (which I don't believe he did, and you're just grasping at straws to make such a claim), the scriptures proclaim that Jesus was in fact "without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). And I'll choose to except the testimony of scripture over that of either you or even Luther.
Yes but your scriptures as constantly pointed on this very thread are always at odds with each other with passages not agreeing and thus left for many to reform and open interpretation whether Luther or john smith, the way I see it, it is you who is grasping at straws, for you don't know where the truth is about your faith at all, and having a heck of a time convincing anyone else of truth in it!

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-25-2010, 03:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
John Schlagenhaufen is Luther's friend, why would he lie?
I don't know that he would lie. Indeed, I don't doubt that something similar to what he reports was part of a conversation. What I question is the interpretation that Luther is seriously suggesting that Jesus had sex with any of these women. In the context of Luther's theology, wherein Christ's takes our own sins upon himself, it is entirely consistent for Luther to say that Christ was a fornicator, or adulterer, but that doesn't mean Luther believed Jesus to have ever had sex with anyone at all. Luther believed that part of the process by which Christ made atonement for human sin was that God "heaped all the sins of all men upon Him [Jesus], and said to Him: 'Be Peter the denier; Paul the persecutor, blasphemer, and assaulter; David the adulterer; the sinner who ate the apple in Paradise; the thief on the cross. In short, be the person of all men, the one who has committed the sin of all men.' " (Martin Luther, Lectures on Galatians. 1535. In Luther's Works, vol. 26, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan. Saint Louis: Concordia, c. 1963-64, p. 280.)

Luther would even go so far as to say that Christ became "the greatest thief, murderer, adulterer, robber, desecrator, blasphemer, etc., there ever has been in the world" (see above, p. 277), but that doesn't mean that Luther believed Christ literally did any of these things, for he concludes that thought by saying, "...not in the sense that He has committed them but in the sense that He took these sins, committed by us, upon His own body" (see above, also p. 277).

It is in the light of this aspect of Luther's thinking that I think you have to read the comments about Jesus committing adultery.
Reply

جوري
02-25-2010, 04:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't know that he would lie. Indeed, I don't doubt that something similar to what he reports was part of a conversation. What I question is the interpretation that Luther is seriously suggesting that Jesus had sex with any of these women. In the context of Luther's theology, wherein Christ's takes our own sins upon himself, it is entirely consistent for Luther to say that Christ was a fornicator, or adulterer, but that doesn't mean Luther believed Jesus to have ever had sex with anyone at all. Luther believed that part of the process by which Christ made atonement for human sin was that God "heaped all the sins of all men upon Him [Jesus], and said to Him: 'Be Peter the denier; Paul the persecutor, blasphemer, and assaulter; David the adulterer; the sinner who ate the apple in Paradise; the thief on the cross. In short, be the person of all men, the one who has committed the sin of all men.' " (Martin Luther, Lectures on Galatians. 1535. In Luther's Works, vol. 26, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan. Saint Louis: Concordia, c. 1963-64, p. 280.)

Luther would even go so far as to say that Christ became "the greatest thief, murderer, adulterer, robber, desecrator, blasphemer, etc., there ever has been in the world" (see above, p. 277), but that doesn't mean that Luther believed Christ literally did any of these things, for he concludes that thought by saying, "...not in the sense that He has committed them but in the sense that He took these sins, committed by us, upon His own body" (see above, also p. 277).

It is in the light of this aspect of Luther's thinking that I think you have to read the comments about Jesus committing adultery.
I don't believe that prophets sins.. I am not the one inventing philosophies or making gods of men.. so this turmoil obviously has to be dealt within christian circles along with other problems.. It isn't a Muslim's cross to bear (no pun intended)

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-25-2010, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't believe that prophets sins.. I am not the one inventing philosophies or making gods of men.. so this turmoil obviously has to be dealt within christian circles along with other problems.. It isn't a Muslim's cross to bear (no pun intended)

all the best
(Though not intended, it's still a pretty good pun. :statisfie)

And you were trying to show that Luther believed Jesus to be an adulterer. That needs to be set in context. Luther believed that Jesus was the worst of all sinners, but not because Jesus himself committed any actual sinful acts, for Luther believed the opposite, that Jesus lived a perfect, holy, and completely righteous life. Nevertheless, to Luther's understanding, Jesus was still the worst of all sinners because in his death on the cross Jesus took all of humanity's sins upon himself. It is in that manner, and none other, that Luther believed Jesus to be an adulterer.
Reply

Ramadhan
02-25-2010, 05:42 AM
in "christian" countries, adoption of children are very much sanctioned, that the adopted children lost their true identities, and as a result, many potentially marry their own siblings.
Not to mention the practices of bank sperm, surrogate mothers etc.

Just from this phenomena you can see that it is not from God. Unless your version of god sanctions incest (just like in the OT, where the best of the very of best of humankind, a noble prophet, got drunk and slept with his daughters)

while in Islam, "adoption" (the practice of taking other's child as their own children and erase their true identity while taking the identity of adopting parents) is not allowed, but "sponsoring" and "raising" children (and especially orphans) of other people while still firmly establishing their true identities are very much encouraged.

Anyone with honest heart and clear mind will be able to see which one is false and which one is true.
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-25-2010, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
In "Christian" countries....
You know that's a red herring. There are no "Christain" countries.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Anyone with honest heart and clear mind will be able to see which one is false and which one is true.
I think you make too much of this potentiality. While it could happen, the likelihood is extremely rare. I know of only one case of it actually happening.

Also, from a purley biological point of view the arguments against familial relationship are not about it a single incident of it, but about regular and continued inbreeding. Thus, marrying over and over again within one clan would be a bigger issue than of a single case of a brother and sisters accidently being married to one another.

Finally, it was my understanding that Muslims believed in the story of God beginning the human line with Adam and Eve. So, surely Muslims have had to address the issue of siblings having children together, as, if you accept that beginning, there wasn't any other option.





Then you raise another issue that I would like to address as well:
If Islam recognizes sponsorship, why didn't Muhammad sponsor rather than marry Aisha? That seems like a much more appropriate relationship.
Reply

Predator
02-25-2010, 05:14 PM
If Islam recognizes sponsorship, why didn't Muhammad sponsor rather than marry Aisha? That seems like a much more appropriate relationship.
Aisha's parents were the ones who married her to our Prophet, and that no Muslim or even a pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd world countries (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married. Anyway, the reason no one objected was to the Prophet's marriage was:

1.)People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.


2) Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many third-world non-Muslim and Muslim countries
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-25-2010, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Aisha's parents were the ones who married her to our Prophet, and that no Muslim or even a pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd world countries (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married. Anyway, the reason no one objected was to the Prophet's marriage was:

1.)People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.


2) Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many third-world non-Muslim and Muslim countries

I know those details, but given this new information about the option of sponsorship, the reality that marriages between adults and children were ever allowed to take place seems all the more inappropriate. The Prophet had a better option available to him and didn't exercise it.
Reply

Predator
02-25-2010, 06:23 PM
Back on topic more about Talmud and Jews

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis.htm
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-25-2010, 09:13 PM
Airforce, do you consider the halakhah laws of Judaism
a) appropriate within their own text?
b) understandable at one time in history, but repugnant today in a multicultural society?
c) wrong at all times and places?
d) something that shows how much better Islam is for it has no similar laws or jurisprudence?
Reply

Hugo
02-25-2010, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Jesus! You have heard of table talk?

Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: "Whatever has he been doing with her?" Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 - May 1, 1532, p. 33)
You are NOT reporting what Luther said, you are reporting what someone alleges he said. You are also insulting Jesus, one of your own prophets, is there nothing sacred to you? The passage of scripture in John chapter 4 says nothing like what you imply here and simple research would show you that.
Reply

Hugo
02-25-2010, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
in "christian" countries, adoption of children are very much sanctioned, that the adopted children lost their true identities, and as a result, many potentially marry their own siblings.
Not to mention the practices of bank sperm, surrogate mothers etc.

Just from this phenomena you can see that it is not from God. Unless your version of god sanctions incest (just like in the OT, where the best of the very of best of humankind, a noble prophet, got drunk and slept with his daughters)

while in Islam, "adoption" (the practice of taking other's child as their own children and erase their true identity while taking the identity of adopting parents) is not allowed, but "sponsoring" and "raising" children (and especially orphans) of other people while still firmly establishing their true identities are very much encouraged.

Anyone with honest heart and clear mind will be able to see which one is false and which one is true.
It is a simple and well know fact that in the UK sadly the number of children born with serious problems is at it highest in Muslim communities where relatively close kin marry. This is simply a biased view of your and far from the truth and no foundation in fact.
Reply

Hugo
02-25-2010, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't believe that prophets sins.. I am not the one inventing philosophies or making gods of men.. so this turmoil obviously has to be dealt within christian circles along with other problems.. It isn't a Muslim's cross to bear (no pun intended)

all the best
Fortunately, what you believe is your own business but the rest of operate in a more realistic manner because we know what human kind is capable of.
Reply

جوري
02-25-2010, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
You are NOT reporting what Luther said, you are reporting what someone alleges he said. You are also insulting Jesus, one of your own prophets, is there nothing sacred to you? The passage of scripture in John chapter 4 says nothing like what you imply here and simple research would show you that.
Were Luther or friend ordained by Jesus so they can speculate one way or the other? I am actually reporting a popular belief amongst Christians. The Jesus you believe in is far removed from the messenger of God that Muslims believe in.

all the best
Reply

جوري
02-25-2010, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Fortunately, what you believe is your own business but the rest of operate in a more realistic manner because we know what human kind is capable of.
That indeed goes both ways.. so you can quit with your you are insulting so and so, considering your books show reverence to no one!

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-25-2010, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
You are NOT reporting what Luther said, you are reporting what someone alleges he said. You are also insulting Jesus, one of your own prophets, is there nothing sacred to you? The passage of scripture in John chapter 4 says nothing like what you imply here and simple research would show you that.
Relax, Hugo. She is reporting what one would find that Luther's friend report him to have said, and is well documented in Luther's Works. Because it occured as part of table conversation, short of a time machine there is no way to verify the exactness of the quote, but there is no reason to doubt the essential content. Sadly, what is needed even more is the context, whether Luther was talking in large theological abstracts and allegory, as he often did (and is know to have said some other pretty outlandish things in the process and which this turn of a phrase would be another example, perhaps distorted slightly by intoxicated memories), or if he was speaking historically and literally (something that he usually did with much more clarity and on which points he is known to had a completely different opinion than that which is portrayed by this quote for which we have no context).
Reply

Hugo
02-25-2010, 10:13 PM
[QUOTE=Gossamer skye;1297801]Really? How can lay people distinguish facts from fiction? with errors as these to name a few:

2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." 2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death" 2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul.
These are easily understood. In the first case the 42 may be referring to the house of Ahab and secondly it may be a scribal error as some manuscripts say 42 and others 22. In the second case the word 'bore' used in the scripture could also mean something like 'brought up' or the name might be mistake and it is speaking of Merab.

Now perhaps you will consider problems within the Qu'ran and of course there were scribal errors as Dr Al Azami testified though he acknowledges it cannot be proved because sadly there are no early manuscript to look at.

1. Interpolations - verse 5:69 offers a particular case of interpolation, since it repeats word for word verse 2.62 - must be an interpolation probably by mistake, inasmuch as it expresses a positive appreciation of the "followers of scripture" and other believers, whereas the context in which it is reproduced is marked by recriminations against them.

2. Contradictions - the Qu'ran affirms inimitability - 17:88 but this cannot be taken literally, for it belongs to a genre that glorifies divine works. Since God is superior to his living creatures, so then everything they are capable of producing could not equal the work of the creator and so it is a mistake to draw from any affirmation of excellence and argument for its inimitable character.

3. Abrogation - its only purpose is to resolve any contradiction.
Reply

جوري
02-25-2010, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo


These are easily understood. In the first case the 42 may be referring to the house of Ahab and secondly it may be a scribal error as some manuscripts say 42 and others 22. In the second case the word 'bore' used in the scripture could also mean something like 'brought up' or the name might be mistake and it is speaking of Merab.
Sad thing indeed is a scribal error when it comes to religion.. How does one distinguish fact from fiction, especially when it comes to making gods of men some centuries later.. I don't need you to labor over every scribal error, I think we can fill out volumes.. it is already established that the bible amongst other things has no textual integrity!
Now perhaps you will consider problems within the Qu'ran and of course there were scribal errors as Dr Al Azami testified though he acknowledges it cannot be proved because sadly there are no early manuscript to look at.
If you find errors or contradictions in the Quran, then bring them forth.. The Quran can't be made to compare to the bible and I have listed a thousand reason why previously, but I have never known you to get past the title of the page!
1. Interpolations - verse 5:69 offers a particular case of interpolation, since it repeats word for word verse 2.62 - must be an interpolation probably by mistake, inasmuch as it expresses a positive appreciation of the "followers of scripture" and other believers, whereas the context in which it is reproduced is marked by recriminations against them.
You seem to have a difficulty with that no matter how many times explained to you, but I imagine it is both an ignorance of history and the Quran and it is not surprising seeing how stuck you are in a constant stage of cognitive conservatism!

2. Contradictions - the Qu'ran affirms inimitability - 17:88 but this cannot be taken literally, for it belongs to a genre that glorifies divine works. Since God is superior to his living creatures, so then everything they are capable of producing could not equal the work of the creator and so it is a mistake to draw from any affirmation of excellence and argument for its inimitable character.
The Quran's inimitablity is found in its literally excellence amongst other facets again laid out for all to match.. It is not merely because its verses so allege!
3. Abrogation - its only purpose is to resolve any contradiction.
Someone should teach you the art of logic!

all the best
Reply

Hugo
02-25-2010, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Things that deal with the unseen differ greatly from passages that deal with every day life. Whether or not the prophet's heart was purified has no bearing on any other aspect of Islamic jurisprudence, monotheism, politics, etc.
You may be right but miss the point I was making, you accept without question the story literally even though it is fantastical yet when others others have certain belief you resort to ridicule - schizophrenic?


and if you'd bother actually read the story of the those in the cave, you'd have gleaned at least one mathematical and one medical sign and a counsel in the form of:

18:26 Say: "God knows best how long they remained [there]. His [alone] is the knowledge of the hidden reality of the heavens and the earth: how well does He see and hear! No guardian have they apart from Him, since He allots to no one a share in His rule!"
Well what is the moral of the story which in any case is a copy of the seven sleepers of Ephesus. Sura 18 give a sheaf of legends from world literature, which is odd because almost everywhere else the Qu'ran draws on Biblical and or Rabbinic material or Arabian lore.
Reply

Hugo
02-25-2010, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
If you find errors or contradictions in the Quran, then bring them forth.. The Quran can't be made to compare to the bible and I have listed a thousand reason why previously, but I have never known you to get past the title of the page!
I have but your only answer is that they don't exist. Read for example Mondher Sfar's book "in Search of there Original Qu'ran' where he lists dozens and dozens of problems in a very scholarly an honest manner even though he loves and respects it.

It is simply beyond belief, way beyond belief that there are no errors and never were, its laughable and undermines Islam because it simply cannot be true and implies that man can do as well as or better than God.

You seem to have a difficulty with that no matter how many times explained to you, but I imagine it is both an ignorance of history and the Quran and it is not surprising seeing how stuck you are in a constant stage of cognitive conservatism!
I have never introduced the interpolation I mention in an early post before so you could NOT have explained it. Sadly it is you trade mark to avoid answering questions in favour of your preferred tactic

The Quran's inimitablity is found in its literally excellence amongst other facets again laid out for all to match.. It is not merely because its verses so allege!Someone should teach you the art of logic!
You know nothing of logic and for you it amounts to blind belief in all things Islamic which are always true and therefore everything else must be false. We have been here before and I amongst others have offered long lists to show that literary merit is not a measure on inimitiability and here I have shown another feature, that of interpolation that further undermines the case.
Reply

جوري
02-25-2010, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
You may be right but miss the point I was making, you accept without question the story literally even though it is fantastical yet when others others have certain belief you resort to ridicule - schizophrenic?
You have no point that is the problem.. you assign yourself and always out of ignorance the task of envisioning what other' believe. Further you don't know what I find allegorical or a fundamental.. I don't ridicule your beliefs, I find them absurd, even more so that you think there is any grounds for comparison whatsoever!

Well what is the moral of the story which in any case is a copy of the seven sleepers of Ephesus. Sura 18 give a sheaf of legends from world literature, which is odd because almost everywhere else the Qu'ran draws on Biblical and or Rabbinic material or Arabian lore.
Go read it... Quran doesn't draw from Rabbinic or biblical lore.. It is the word of God, who knows best the sequence of events of folks of yore as they occurred? Certainly not a Grecian translation of myth about men/gods and their later disciples in an unparalleled lyrical form.
If insistently draw the conclusion that appeases your own personal beliefs, then I suggest you do it on a christian forum, unless you enjoy being made a public display and repeatedly?

all the best
Reply

جوري
02-25-2010, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I have but your only answer is that they don't exist. Read for example Mondher Sfar's book "in Search of there Original Qu'ran' where he lists dozens and dozens of problems in a very scholarly an honest manner even though he loves and respects it.
Go ahead share them here one by one.. what better place to bring a 'very scholarly honest manner' for discussion than on an Islamic forum?
It is simply beyond belief, way beyond belief that there are no errors and never were, its laughable and undermines Islam because it simply cannot be true and implies that man can do as well as or better than God.
How is it that man can do better than God when man is merely writing down the very word of God? Again, logic.. you need to work on it!


I have never introduced the interpolation I mention in an early post before so you could NOT have explained it. Sadly it is you trade mark to avoid answering questions in favour of your preferred tactic
Actually you have an repeatedly -- you constantly ask the same two or three things.. both about the previous scriptures mentioned in the Quran and previous 'people of the book' no matter how many times folks point out to you, that the doctrines as you follow them today and the original tribes of Jews or sabians etc. have nothing to do with modern day khazars or man worshiping christians!



You know nothing of logic and for you it amounts to blind belief in all things Islamic which are always true and therefore everything else must be false. We have been here before and I amongst others have offered long lists to show that literary merit is not a measure on inimitiability and here I have shown another feature, that of interpolation that further undermines the case.
The only thing you undermine is your own person and abilities.. I love though that how you seethe with each post, it is enjoyable how much you invest in this and always come up short..

btw. The topic here is the talmud, do you think you can focus on that in your quest for 'logic'?

all the best
Reply

barney
02-25-2010, 11:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Go ahead share them here one by one.. what better place to bring a 'very scholarly honest manner' for discussion than on an Islamic forum?

How is it that man can do better than God when man is merely writing down the very word of God? Again, logic.. you need to work on it!




Actually you have an repeatedly -- you constantly ask the same two or three things.. both about the previous scriptures mentioned in the Quran and previous 'people of the book' no matter how many times folks point out to you, that the doctrines as you follow them today and the original tribes of Jews or sabians etc. have nothing to do with modern day khazars or man worshiping christians!




The only thing you undermine is your own person and abilities.. I love though that how you seethe with each post, it is enjoyable how much you invest in this and always come up short..

btw. The topic here is the talmud, do you think you can focus on that in your quest for 'logic'?

all the best
Why do Christians own computers? They are possesions. Anyone who wishes to follow Christ must abandon his posessions, clothes even his home if he wishes to follow jesus.

Why do Muslims use computers. Computers are an invention of the unbeleiver. The unbeleivers used them for decades before certain turkish apostates began using them in Imitation of the Kuffaar.
Reply

Muhammad
02-25-2010, 11:19 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

I'm not sure what's happened to this thread but it certainly seems quite far from the original topic. I shall take the off-topic posts to mean it's time for closure!

:threadclo
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