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theplains
12-01-2012, 09:20 PM

Hello,

I started reading the English version of the Quran (mostly two editions, one by Amded Ali and the
other by Abdullah Yusif Ali). But I'll quote from the online version at quranexplorer com.

I am unclear on some things in sura 2:29-31 so I have some questions.

"And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said:
Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy
praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. And He taught Adam all
the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are
truthful. They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo!
Thou, only Thou,
art the Knower, the Wise".

Did God teach Adam in private so the angels could not know what the animal names would be?
Did Adam name Eve or did God tell Adam that she was called Eve?

What viceroy on earth did the angels believe would cause harm and shed blood? And how did they
know? Did God teach this to them?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

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Hulk
12-01-2012, 10:08 PM
From my limited understanding "Viceroy" or "Khalifah" refers to man in general. And from the verse we understand that Man was created with the ability to learn. The angels are intellectual creatures but their knowledge is limited(us too).

The special thing about the human beings is that we have "free choice". We can either choose to do good or bad, whereas angels will never do bad.

The lesson to be learnt is also humility, that we don't know everything. And that what we do know is what Allah lets us know.

So don't be arrogant in knowledge that you possess.

I hope my response helps in some understanding.
Reply

جوري
12-01-2012, 10:55 PM
How I understand this is that Allah swt gave mankind reason, which actually contradicts the Christian concept or as one guy brought before that they were ignorant and childlike. That Allah swt equipped us with all the knowledge of the world that we need and if you think about it, all subjects even the 'logical' ones are really borne of our imagination from the knowledge that is already innate in us, we're but to reach in and find it.. and I find that folks can bring about this creativity and fitrah that Allah swt gifted us when we use our right brains more than the left.. it is the gift..
but the new world order isn't set to govern individual units is it? it is all about running like a machine and shutting off your mind to be fed what they desire us to be fed!
Also I believe the bloodshed is meant as a comment on the dinosaurs or whatever creatures that were on earth preparing it for mankind.. that they were mindless and causing carnage and damage but Allah swt knows best that one is my understanding!
Reply

Perseveranze
12-01-2012, 11:07 PM
Look in Ibn Kathir(رحيم الله)'s tafsir;

Allah reiterated His favor on the Children of Adam when He stated that He mentioned them in the highest of heights before He created them. Allah said,

﴿وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَـئِكَةِ﴾

(And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels.)

This Ayah means, "O Muhammad ! Mention to your people what Allah said to the angels,

﴿إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِى الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً﴾

(Verily, I am going to place a Khalifah on earth).

Meaning people reproducing generation after generation, century after century, just as Allah said,

﴿وَهُوَ الَّذِى جَعَلَكُمْ خَلَـئِفَ الاٌّرْضِ﴾

(And it is He Who has made you (Khala'if) generations coming after generations, replacing each other on the earth) (6:165),

﴿وَيَجْعَلُكُمْ حُلَفَآءَ الاٌّرْضِ﴾

(And makes you (Khulafa') inheritors of the earth) (27:62),

﴿وَلَوْ نَشَآءُ لَجَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ مَّلَـئِكَةً فِى الاٌّرْضِ يَخْلُفُونَ ﴾

(And if it were Our will, We would have (destroyed you (mankind all, and) made angels to replace you (Yakhlufun) on the earth.) (43: 60) and,

﴿فَخَلَفَ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ خَلْفٌ﴾

(Then after them succeeded an (evil) generation (Khalf)) (7:169). It appears that Allah was not refering to Adam specifically as Khalifah, otherwise he would not have allowed the angels' statement,

﴿أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَآءَ﴾

(Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood).

The angels meant that this type of creature usually commits the atrocities they mentioned. The angels knew of this fact, according to their understanding of human nature, for Allah stated that He would create man from clay. Or, the angels understood this fact from the word Khalifah, which also means the person who judges disputes that occur between people, forbidding them from injustice and sin, as Al-Qurtubi said.

The statement the angels uttered was not a form of disputing with Allah's, nor out of envy for the Children of Adam, as some mistakenly thought. Allah has described them as those who do not precede Him in speaking, meaning that they do not ask Allah anything without His permission. When Allah informed them that He was going to create a creation on the earth, and they had knowledge that this creation would commit mischief on it, as Qatadah mentioned, they said,

﴿أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَآءَ﴾

(Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood)

This is only a question for the sake of learning about the wisdom of that, as if they said, Our Lord! What is the wisdom of creating such creatures since they will cause trouble in the earth and spill blood "If the wisdom behind this action is that You be worshipped, we praise and glorify You (meaning we pray to You) we never indulge in mischief, so why create other creatures''

Allah said to the angels in answer to their inquiry,

﴿إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾

(I know that which you do not know.) meaning, "I know that the benefit of creating this type of creature outweighs the harm that you mentioned, that which you have no knowledge of. I will create among them Prophets and send Messengers. I will also create among them truthful, martyrs, righteous believers, worshippers, the modest, the pious, the scholars who implement their knowledge, humble people and those who love Allah and follow His Messengers.''

The Sahih recorded that when the angels ascend to Allah with the records of the servant's deeds, Allah asks them, while having better knowledge, "How did you leave My servants'' They will say, "We came to them while they were praying and left them while they were praying.'' This is because the angels work in shifts with mankind, and they change shifts during the Fajr and `Asr prayers. The angels who descended will remain with us, while the angels who have remained with us ascend with our deeds. The Messenger of Allah said,

«يُرْفَعُ إِلَيْهِ عَمَلُ اللَّيْلِ قَبْلَ النَّهَارِ وَعَمَلُ النَّهَارِ قَبْلَ اللَّيْل»

(The deeds of the night are elevated to Allah before the morning, and the deeds of the morning before the night falls. )

Hence, the angels' statement, "We came to them while they were praying and left them while they were praying,'' explains Allah's statement,

﴿إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾

(I know that which you do not know.)

It was said that the meaning of Allah's statement,

﴿إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾

(I know that which you do not know.) is, "I have a specific wisdom in creating them, which you do not have knowledge of.'' It was also said that it is in answer to,

﴿وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ﴾

(While we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You) after which Allah said,

﴿إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾

(I know that which you do not know). Meaning, "I know that Iblis is not as you are, although he is among you.'' Others said,

﴿أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَآءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ﴾

"(Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, ـ while we glorify you with praises and thanks and sanctify You.) is their request that they should be allowed to inhabit the earth, instead of the Children of Adam. So Allah said to them,

﴿إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾

(I know that which you do not know) if your inhabiting the heavens is better, or worse for you.'' Ar-Razi as well as others said this. Allah knows best.
Allah stated the virtue of Adam above the angels, because He taught Adam, rather than them, the names of everything. This occurred after they prostrated to him. This discussion precedes that event here, only to show the importance of his position, and the absence of the angels' knowledge about creating the Khalifah when they asked about it. So Allah informed the angels that He knows what they do not know, and then He mentioned this to show them Adam's superiority over them in knowledge. Allah said,

﴿وَعَلَّمَ ءَادَمَ الأَسْمَآءَ كُلَّهَا﴾

(And He taught Adam all the names (of everything)).

Ad-Dahhak said that Ibn `Abbas commented on the Ayah;

﴿وَعَلَّمَ ءَادَمَ الأَسْمَآءَ كُلَّهَا﴾

(And He taught Adam all the names (of everything)) "Meaning, the names that people use, such as human, animal, sky, earth, land, sea, horse, donkey, and so forth, including the names of the other species.'' Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir reported that `Asim bin Kulayb narrated from Sa`id bin Ma`bad that Ibn `Abbas was questioned,

﴿وَعَلَّمَ ءَادَمَ الأَسْمَآءَ كُلَّهَا﴾

(And He taught Adam all the names (of everything)) "Did Allah teach him the names of the plate and the pot'' He said, "Yes, and even the terms for breaking wind!''

Allah taught Adam the names of everything, their proper names, the names of their characteristics, and what they do, just as Ibn `Abbas stated about the terms for passing gas.

In his Sahih, Al-Bukhari explained this Ayah in the Book of Tafsir with a report from Anas bin Malik who said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«يَجْتَمِعُ الْمُؤمِنُونَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَيَقُولُونَ: لَوِ اسْتَشْفَعْنَا إِلَى رَبِّنَا فَيَأْتُونَ آدَمَ فَيَقُولُونَ: أَنْتَ أَبُو النَّاسِ خَلَقَكَ اللهُ بِيَدِهِ وَأَسْجَدَ لَكَ مَلَائِكَتَهُ وَعَلَّمَكَ أَسْمَاءَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ، فَاشْفَعْ لَنَا عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ حَتَّى يُريحَنَا مِنْ مَكَانِنَا هَذا، فَيَقُولُ: لَسْتُ هُنَاكُمْ وَيَذْكُرُ ذَنْبَهُ فَيَسْتَحْيِي ائْتُوا نُوحًا فإِنَّهُ أَوَّلُ رَسُولٍ بَعَثَهُ اللهُ إِلَى أَهْلِ الْأَرْضِ، فَيَأْتُونَه، فَيَقُولُ: لَسْتُ هُناكُمْ وَيَذْكُر سُؤَالَه رَبَّه مَا لَيْسَ لَهُ بِه عِلْم فَيَسْتَحْيِي فَيَقُولُ: ائْتُوا خَلِيلَ الرَّحْمن فَيَأْتُونَهُ فَيقُولُ: لَسْتُ هُنَاكُمْ فَيَقُولُ: ائْتُوا مُوسَى عَبْدًا كَلَّمَهُ اللهُ وَأعْطَاهُ التَّوْرَاةَ، فَيقُولُ: لَسْتُ هُنَاكُم فَيَذْكُرُ قَتْلَ النَّفْسِ بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ فَيَسْتَحْيِي مِنْ رَبِّهِ فَيَقُولُ: ائْتُوا عِيسى عَبْدَاللهِ وَرَسُولَهُ وَكَلِمَةَ اللهِ ورُوحَهُ، فَيَأْتُونَهُ فَيَقُولُ: لَسْتُ هُنَاكُمْ ائْتُوا مُحَمَّدًا عَبْدًا غُفِرَ لَهُ مَا تَقَدَّم مِنْ ذَنْبِهِ وَمَا تَأَخَّرَ، فَيَأْتُونِّي فأَنْطَلِقُ حَتَّى أَسْتأذِنَ عَلَى رَبِّي فيَأْذَنُ لِي، فإِذَا رأَيْتُ رَبِّي وَقَعْتُ سَاجِدًا فَيَدَعُنِي مَا شَاءَ اللهُ ثُمَّ يُقَالُ: ارْفَعْ رَأْسَكَ وَسَلْ تُعْطَهْ وَقُلْ يُسْمَعْ وَاشْفَعْ تُشَفَّعْ، فأَرْفَعُ رَأْسِي فأَحْمَدُهُ بِتَحْمِيدٍ يُعَلِّمُنِيهِ ثُمَّ أَشْفَعُ فَيُحَدُّ لِي حَدًّا فأُدْخِلُهُمُ الْجَنَّةَ ثُمَّ أَعُودُ إلَيْهِ فَإذَا رَأَيْتُ رَبِّي مِثْلَهُ ثُمَّ أَشْفَعُ فَيُحَدُّ لِي حدًّا فأُدْخِلُهُمُ الْجَنَّةَ ثُمَّ أَعُودُ الثَّالِثَةَ ثُمَّ أعُودُ الرَّابِعَةَ فَأَقُولُ:مَا بَقِيَ فِي النَّار إلَّا مَنْ حَبَسَهُ الْقُرْآنُ وَوَجَبَ عَلَيْهِ الْخُلُود»

(The believers will gather on the Day of Resurrection and will say, `We should seek a means of intercession with our Lord' They will go to Adam and say, `O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, Allah created you with His Own Hand, ordered the angels to prostrate for you and taught you the names of everything. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord, so that he relieve us from this gathering place' On that Adam will reply, `I cannot do what you have asked'. He will have remembered his error and will be embarrassed, saying, `Go to Nuh, for he is the first of Allah's Messengers whom Allah sent to the people of the earth.' They will go to Nuh and ask him. He will say, `I cannot do what you have asked.' He will recall asking Allah what he was not to know, and will also be embarrassed. He will say, `Go to Khalil Ar-Rahman.' They will go to Ibrahim and he will also say, `I cannot do what you have asked.' He will say, `Go to Musa, a servant to whom Allah spoke directly and gave the Tawrah.' Musa will say, `I cannot do what you have asked.' He will remember that he killed a person without justification and will be embarrassed before his Lord. He will say, `Go to `Isa, Allah's servant and Messenger and His Word and a spirit of His.' They will go to `Isa and he will say, `I will not do what you asked. Go to Muhammad, a servant whose previous and latter errors were forgiven.' They will come to me, and I will go to Allah and seek His permission and He will give me His permission. When I gaze at my Lord, I will prostrate myself and Allah will allow me to remain like that as much as He will. Then I will be addressed, `O Muhammad! Raise your head; ask, for you will be given what you ask, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will raise my head and thank and praise Allah with such praise as He will inspire me. I will intercede and He will grant me a quantity of people that He will admit into Paradise. I will go back to Him, and when I see my Lord, I will intercede and He will allow me a quantity that He will admit into Paradise. I will do that for a third and then a fourth time. I will say, `There are no more people left in Hell except those whom the Qur'an has incarcerated and have thus acquired eternity in Hell.') This Hadith was collected by Muslim, An-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah. fThe reason why we mentioned this Hadith here is the Prophet's statement,

«فَيَأْتُونَ آدَمَ فَيَقُولُون: أنْتَ أَبُو النَّاسِ خَلَقَكَ اللهُ بِيَدِهِ وَأَسْجَدَ لَكَ مَلَائِكَتَهُ وَعَلَّمَكَ أَسْمَاءَ كُلِّ شَيْء»

(They will go to Adam and say, `O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hand, ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and taught you the names of everything). This part of the Hadith testifies to the fact that Allah taught Adam the names of all creatures.

This is why Allah said,

﴿ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَـئِكَةِ﴾

(Then He showed them to the angels) meaning, the objects or creations. `Abdur-Razzaq narrated that Ma`mar said that Qatadah said, "Allah paraded the objects before the angels,

﴿فَقَالَ أَنبِئُونِى بِأَسْمَآءِ هَـؤُلاَءِ إِن كُنتُمْ صَـدِقِينَ﴾

(And said, "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful'').''

Allah's statement means, "Tell Me the names of what I paraded before you, O angels who said,

﴿أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَآءَ﴾

(Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood).

You asked, `Are You appointing a Khalifah from us or from other creations We praise and glorify You.

Therefore, Allah said, "If you say the truth, that if I appoint a non-angel Khalifah on the earth, he and his offspring will disobey Me, commit mischief and shed blood, but if I designate you the Khalifahs you will obey Me, follow My command and honor and glorify Me. However, since you do not know the names of the objects I paraded before you, then you have even less knowledge of what will occur on the earth that does not exist yet.''

﴿قَالُواْ سُبْحَـنَكَ لاَ عِلْمَ لَنَآ إِلاَّ مَا عَلَّمْتَنَآ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ ﴾

(They (angels) said: "Glory is to You, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us. Verily, it is You, the Knower, the Wise.'').

Here the angels are praising Allah's holiness, and perfection above every kind of deficiency, affirming that no creature could ever acquire any part of Allah's knowledge, except by His permission, nor could anyone know anything except what Allah teaches them. This is why they said,

﴿سُبْحَـنَكَ لاَ عِلْمَ لَنَآ إِلاَّ مَا عَلَّمْتَنَآ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ﴾

("Glory is to You, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us. Verily You are the Knower, the Wise) meaning, Allah is knowledgeable of everything, Most Wise about His creation, and He makes the wisest decisions, and He teaches and deprives whom He wills from knowledge. Verily, Allah's wisdom and justice in all matters is perfect.

Allah said,

﴿قَالَ يَـاءَادَمُ أَنبِئْهُم بِأَسْمَآئِهِمْ فَلَمَّآ أَنبَأَهُم بِأَسْمَآئِهِم قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُل لَّكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَـوَاتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ ﴾

(He said: "O Adam! Inform them of their names,'' and when he had informed them of their names, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the Ghayb (unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing'')

Zayd bin Aslam said, "You are Jibril, you are Mika'il, you are Israfil, until he mentioned the name of the crow.'' Mujahid said that Allah's statement,

﴿قَالَ يَـاءَادَمُ أَنبِئْهُم بِأَسْمَآئِهِمْ﴾

(He said: "O Adam! Inform them of their names,'') "The name of the pigeon, the crow and everything.'' Statements of a similar meaning were reported from Sa`id bin Jubayr, Al-Hasan, and Qatadah. When Adam's virtue over the angels became apparent, as he mentioned the names that Allah taught him, Allah said to the angels,

﴿أَلَمْ أَقُل لَّكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَـوَاتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ﴾

(Did I not tell you that I know the Ghayb (unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing)

This means, "Did I not state that I know the seen and unseen matters. '' Similarly, Allah said,

﴿وَإِن تَجْهَرْ بِالْقَوْلِ فَإِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ السِّرَّ وَأَخْفَى ﴾

(And if you (O Muhammad ) speak (the invocation) aloud, then verily, He knows the secret and that which is yet more hidden) (20:7).

Also, Allah said about the hoopoe, that it said to Sulayman;

﴿أَلاَّ يَسْجُدُواْ للَّهِ الَّذِى يُخْرِجُ الْخَبْءَ فِى السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا تُخْفُونَ وَمَا تُعْلِنُونَ - اللَّهُ لاَ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ رَبُّ الْعَرْشِ الْعَظِيمِ ﴾

(﴿As Shaytan (Satan) has barred them from Allah's way﴾ so they do not prostrate before Allah, Who brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and knows what you conceal and what you reveal. Allah, La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Lord of the Supreme Throne!) (27:25-26).

They also have comments other than what we have said about the meaning of Allah's statement,

﴿وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ﴾

(And I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing).

It is reported from Ad-Dahhak that Ibn `Abbas said that,

﴿وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ﴾

(And I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing) means, "`I know the secrets, just as I know the apparent things, such as, what Iblis concealed in his heart of arrogance and pride.'' Abu Ja`far Ar-Razi narrated that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that,

﴿وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ﴾

(And I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing) means, "The apparent part of what they said was: `Do you create in it that which would commit mischief and shed blood' The hidden meaning was: `We have more knowledge and honor than any creation our Lord would create.' But they came to know that Allah favored Adam above them regarding knowledge and honor.''
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theplains
12-02-2012, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Hulk
The special thing about the human beings is that we have "free choice". We can either choose to do good or bad, whereas angels will never do bad.
I am unclear about what you wrote above.

Will angels, like Satan, never do bad? If angels do not have free choice, does this mean that God created
evil angels for the sole purpose to commit evil?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

جوري
12-03-2012, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by theplains
Will angels, like Satan, never do bad?
The problem you have and most pretend Muslims (gives them away in a second) is you seem to be under the impression that Satan is an angel- he never was!

best,
Reply

Hulk
12-03-2012, 12:06 AM
Satan is not an angel, he is a jinn, another type of spiritual being which like us has free choice. Among them are good and bad as well. Muslims don't believe in ghosts or anything like that. When "scary supernatural" things happen like "ghost" sightings or anything of that nature happens that can't be explained within the realm of science then we know it's probably the work of jinns. They are creations like us so no need to be afraid of them!
Reply

M.I.A.
12-03-2012, 12:08 AM
interesting question though.

how would something know of the nature of something only just created?


..the names of things has also been likened to the nature of things but it is conjecture.


unfortunately although he was the first man.

he was not the first creation with free will.

maybe he was the first given substance.

but like has been said, there were plenty of things in creation already.


if that was not the confusion of the question then i guess i missed the point again.
Reply

Hulk
12-03-2012, 12:14 AM
Bro MIA every time you post I am reminded of this clip hehe



I know it's not really the same but it's just a little something I find funny.
Reply

جوري
12-03-2012, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Hulk
Satan is not an angel, he is a jinn
The concept of demons certainly exists in Judaism (I have delved a little in their religion and it is more occult than Abrahamic) but that is besides the point. Point is, yes the concept of Jinn/Demons exists in Judaism so how did that take a strange turn in christianity whereby a demon becomes an angel..


:w:
Reply

M.I.A.
12-03-2012, 01:03 AM
oh that is so me its uncanny.

i didnt even need to watch the clip, its an awesome film.


everytime i post i think, welp...

tomorrows going to be awkward.

but i guess you can get away with it on the internet.


everybody's so much bigger in real life...its impractical to be a hero.
Reply

theplains
12-03-2012, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
The problem you have and most pretend Muslims (gives them away in a second) is you seem to be under the impression that Satan is an angel- he never was!

best,
I think you have misread some of my earlier posts ... I am from the Christian faith.

Thanks. I found in sura 18:50 that Satan is a jinn. Was he the only jinn commanded to prostrate
with the angels before Adam?

Sura 2:30 says, "And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell
prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever".

He became a disbeliever? Does this mean that he was always in submission to God before this
rebellion in Adam's case?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

جوري
12-03-2012, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
I think you have misread some of my earlier posts ... I am from the Christian faith.
I know that- we had another member CK who made a similar query except he alleged to be Muslim!


Originally Posted by theplains
Thanks. I found in sura 18:50 that Satan is a jinn. Was he the only jinn commanded to prostrate
with the angels before Adam?
As far as I know only Iblis was required to prostrate!


Originally Posted by theplains
Sura 2:30 says, "And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell
prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever".

He became a disbeliever? Does this mean that he was always in submission to God before this
rebellion in Adam's case?

Thanks,
Jim
He was never a disbeliever - how can one who has seen God disbelief in God? There are gradations of kuffr just like there are gradations of shirk. He transgressed a direct command of God and thus he was cast except he asked for a respite, a sort of revenge on mankind. He was granted the respite per suret Al'Araf to the day of judgement but was also told like suret al-hijr and others that he has NO sovereign or power over the righteous servants.

قَالَ رَبِّ بِمَا أَغْوَيْتَنِي لَأُزَيِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَأُغْوِيَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ {39}
[Pickthal 15:39] He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast sent me astray, I verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one,
إِلَّا عِبَادَكَ مِنْهُمُ الْمُخْلَصِينَ {40}
[Pickthal 15:40] Save such of them as are Thy perfectly devoted slaves.
قَالَ هَٰذَا صِرَاطٌ عَلَيَّ مُسْتَقِيمٌ {41}
[Pickthal 15:41] He said: This is a right course incumbent upon Me:
إِنَّ عِبَادِي لَيْسَ لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانٌ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّبَعَكَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ {42}
[Pickthal 15:42] Lo! as for My slaves, thou hast no power over any of them save such of the froward as follow thee,


and Allah swt knows best.
Reply

theplains
12-04-2012, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
As far as I know only Iblis was required to prostrate!
You mean only one jinn (referred to as Iblis) was commanded to prostrate? The Quran says the
angels were commanded to prostrate. How do you know that only one jinn was present?

How did Iblis and the angels know the viceroy would do harm and shed blood on earth as sura 2
says?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

جوري
12-04-2012, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
You mean only one jinn (referred to as Iblis) was commanded to prostrate? The Quran says the
angels were commanded to prostrate. How do you know that only one jinn was present?
We don't add to the Quran that which wasn't mentioned that's how we know!


Originally Posted by theplains
How did Iblis and the angels know the viceroy would do harm and shed blood on earth as sura 2
says?
I have already answered this for you- It had nothing to do with man since there were creatures in the world who caused bloodshed. The angels not knowing what this viceroy is like naturally presumed that he'd behave as the creatures already in existence.

best,
Reply

Hulk
12-04-2012, 09:44 PM
Angels are incapable of sinning, from that logic, it made sense to them for them to be a vicegerent instead of any other being. However, they were reminded that their knowledge were limited. Another lesson to take home is don't judge something based on your lack of knowledge.

Notice that when Iblis disobeyed, his logic was that it was because he was made from fire whereas Adam(as) was made from clay. He was looking at it from a materialistic view.

Furthermore, take a look at this verse.

[Allah] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." Al A'raf 7:12

The question iblis was asked was why he did not obey when he was commanded. Think about this and look at his response. Ask yourself, is there any valid reason not to obey God when you are commanded? Iblis wasn't giving a proper answer, because there is no proper reason to disobey God.
Reply

M.I.A.
12-04-2012, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Did God teach Adam in private
yeah i guess you might want to expand your view/definition of a omnipotent, omniscient god.

i mean its like there are 6/7 billion people and the last view you want to take is that he cant be watching everyone.

if he taught adam AS then he hardly had to do it in person.. i mean he does make everything.

..conjecture on my part but its based on logic that is based in belief.


the rest is something that i can conjecture about but it wont bring you any closer to understanding the beginning of the world.

what you can ascertain from our answers is that none of us were present at the time.



i mean it was probably not like an opening ceremony... with ribbon cuttings and such.

maybe invite only.
Reply

Roasted Cashew
12-05-2012, 01:05 PM
As a Muslim, I too want to clarify something on this matter.

And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. - The Noble Qur'an (2:34)

If Allah ordered the angels to prostrate, why does it matter if Iblis didn't prostrate..He is not an angel. How did he then disobey the command. Please do clarify this for me.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis:
he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. - The Noble Qur'an (2:34)
He was required to prostrate to show honor, awe and respect to what Allah swt created and because Allah swt so commanded!
Iblis tried to compare himself to Adam. He believed that he was more honorable than Adam. Therefore he abstained from prostrating even though Allah had commanded him to do so, just as He had commanded the angels. If an analogy is made we see that Iblis is vain. For indeed clay is better than fire because in it can be found the qualities of calmness, clemency, perseverance and growth; whereas in fire can be found heedlessness, insignificance, haste, and incineration.
Iblis tried in vain to justify his refusal: "Shall I prostrate to one whom You created from clay?" Iblis said: "See? those whom You have honored above me, if You give me respite (keep me alive) to the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring (by sending them astray) all but a few!" (Ch 17:62 Quran).
Reply

Roasted Cashew
12-05-2012, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
Therefore he abstained from prostrating even though Allah had commanded him to do so
Where do we derive this from? Hadiths? Since the verse clearly says that Allah commanded the angels.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
Where do we derive this from? Hadiths? Since the verse clearly says that Allah commanded the angels.
We derive that from the Quran which has explained repeatedly who 'Iblis' is- is it grammar you're having difficulty with or simply unread when it comes to the quran?
There are also plenty of ahadiths on the matter but surely the Quran has gone into the nature of Iblis and Jinn enough.. we even have a chapter so entitled.
Read the book sometimes!

best,
Reply

Roasted Cashew
12-05-2012, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
We derive that from the Quran which has explained repeatedly who 'Iblis' is- is it grammar you're having difficulty with or simply unread when it comes to the quran?
Well, maybe it is the very nature of the Qur'an...where things are not in chronological order. For example, few verses about this very incident is in chapter two and the others are in chapter 7. So it makes it difficult to connect the dots.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
So it makes it difficult to connect the dots.
Only if you've never read the book and have a separate agenda on the side!

Iblis is introduced when Allah commanded everyone to bow down to mankind. He chooses not to bow down. [38:71-76]. {{{Please note that [18:50] clearly says Iblis is a Jinn.}}} He (Iblis) later says that he will try to try to lead people astray on earth [7:11-18].
And if you were to look at all of the verses regarding Shaitan, you would notice that it totally correlates with what Iblis said he will do. [7:20],[7:27],[4:38],[23:97][14:22][and more].
With that said, Shaitan is a Jinn (because Iblis is Jinn, and Iblis is Shaitan). I won’t necessarily tell you that all Jinns are Shaitan because the Quran never mentions that.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Islam-947...tion-Djinn.htm
best,
Reply

Roasted Cashew
12-05-2012, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
Only if you've never read the book and have a separate agenda on the side!
I have read the Qur'an. But of course, I didn't memorize it and certainly can't recall where every single thing is mentioned because the very nature of the Qur'an makes it sorta difficult. Why do you always think I am being mischievous?? ^o)

Anyway, I agree that Iblis is Jinn. What I don't understand, in one verse Allah says that He ordered the angels to prostrate. Allah doesn't mention the Jinns. In subsequent verses in chapters ahead we find out that Iblees did indeed receive the order since he is questioning it!! So, when did he receive this order and why is there no mention of it in the Qur'an? Is there any mention of it in the hadiths that you might be aware of??

The other question that arises is...What is a Jinn doing in the company of angels? Someone back in Pakistan once told me...not sure this is a fable or has any firm ground in the Hadith as people do create fables to answer difficult questions..... So what that person told me was...that this particular Jinn, Iblees was very pious. He was so pious that Allah was so pleased with him that He asked him to join the ranks of the angels and sit among them. :exhausted
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
I have read the Qur'an. But of course, I didn't memorize it and certainly can't recall where every single thing is mentioned because the very nature of the Qur'an makes it sorta difficult. Why do you always think I am being mischievous??
I don't think much about you. I only work with what you write- You don't have to memorize the Quran to discern it!


Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
Anyway, I agree that Iblis is Jinn. What I don't understand, in one verse Allah says that He ordered the angels to prostrate. Allah doesn't mention the Jinns. In subsequent verses in chapters ahead we find out that Iblees did indeed receive the order since he is questioning it!! So, when did he receive this order and why is there no mention of it in the Qur'an? Is there any mention of it in the hadiths that you might be aware of??
This is a non-Question and immaterial .. the point isn't when, and if that is what you fixate on you'll have missed the point which generally is what happens with you!


Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
The other question that arises is...What is a Jinn doing in the company of angels? Someone back in Pakistan once told me...not sure this is a fable or has any firm ground in the Hadith as people do create fables to answer difficult questions..... So what that person told me was...that this particular Jinn, Iblees was very pious. He was so pious that Allah was so pleased with him that He asked him to join the ranks of the angels.
This is an expansive topic and mirrors mankind in a way- there are people who are good and do the deeds of those in paradise so that everyone thinks them of the people of paradise but they end up in hell and folks so bad everyone thinks them the people of hell but they're of the people of paradise and we're given an example of this from Isra'lyaat with the story of Barsisa



it is just a question of what will make them flip and for Satan it was the creation of Adam!

best,
Reply

Roasted Cashew
12-05-2012, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
I don't think much about you.
Of course! :p

Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
I only work with what you write
YUP!

Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
You don't have to memorize the Quran to discern it!
agreed!


Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
This is a non-Question
You could have said that earlier and I wouldn't have wasted your time. Thanks but no thanks!

Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
This is an expansive topic and mirrors mankind in a way- there are people who are good and do the deeds of those in paradise so that everyone thinks them of the people of paradise but they end up in hell and folks so bad everyone thinks them the people of hell but they're of the people of paradise and we're given an example of this from Isra'lyaat with the story of Barsisa. it is just a question of what will make them flip and for Satan it was the creation of Adam!
Thanks for sharing.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
You could have said that earlier and I wouldn't have wasted your time. Thanks but no thanks!
This is as nonsensical as your Q. Surely even you can understand that stringing words together doesn't a question make!
other than that we've covered all that needs to be covered without engaging in vain discourse or innovating!

best,
Reply

Muhammad
12-05-2012, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
How did Iblis and the angels know the viceroy would do harm and shed blood on earth as sura 2
says?
From: http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=84962
Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the World; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.

Commentators of the Qur'an mentioned several interpretations of Allah's statement: {And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."} [2: 30].

First, Angels said the above-stated in the verse after He, The Exalted, has informed them of the nature of the offspring of Adam (icon1 1 - ) whose nature is to shed blood and to make mischief on earth. This is narrated from Ibn Abbas , Ibn Masoud , Ibn Juraij , Ibn Zaid and others as recorded by al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir . It is reported that Allah said to the Angels: "I will Create a vicegerent on earth". The Angels said: 'What are the qualities and nature of that vicegerent?' Allah said: "His offspring will make mischief on earth, envy one another and kill one another" .

Qatada added: 'Allah, The Exalted, has informed the Angels that the coming creatures on earth will make mischief and shed blood. For such a reason they said: 'Will you place on earth those who will make mischief on earth?' .

Second, when the Angels heard the word Khalifa (vicegerent), they deduced that some of the offspring of Adam will make mischief, since the Khalifa is meant for reform and giving-up corruption, establishing justice among people and deterring them from doing prohibitions.

Third, al-Qurtubi (may Allah's Mercy be upon him) and other scholars reported that the Angels witnessed and knew the mischief and bloodshed done by the Jinn, who were living on earth before the creation of Adam . Thus, He Sent the Devil, before becoming a disbeliever, and his followers against the Jinn, who resorted islands and edges of mountains. Then, He Created Adam and placed him on earth. This narration is from Ibn Abbas and Abu al-Aliyah .

Then, it should be known that such a saying of the Angels, i.e. about the creation of Adam and his being a Khalifa on earth, does not constitute an objection to Allah's Will. It, according to Ibn Kathir (May Allah's Mercy be upon him) is a form of inquiry that aims at recognizing wisdom behind the act of Divine Order. In other words, the Angels say: 'What is the wisdom of creating such beings, although they make mischief and shed blood on earth?' Then, if the goal is to worship You, then we (Angels) glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You, i.e. pray to You and Obey You, why isn't Your choice limited to us?

Allah, The Exalted, has replied them with: {"I know that which you do not know."} .

This verse indicates that Allah knows what His Creatures do not know, even the evil they mentioned (making mischief on earth and bloodshed). He knows that the creation of Adam on earth constitutes a vital interest to life on earth, since He will send Prophets and Messengers from among the offspring of Adam .

In addition, there will be the righteous, worshippers, scholars, lovers of Allah and followers of His Messengers (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam).

Allah knows best.



Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
If Allah ordered the angels to prostrate, why does it matter if Iblis didn't prostrate..He is not an angel. How did he then disobey the command. Please do clarify this for me.
Please note that the following are merely suggestions and not anything concrete, as I don't know how reliable the sources are.

I think this one is answering a slightly different question but may be relevant here also. It is attributed to Dr. Zakir Naik:

The English translation of the first part of the verse ‘We said to the angels bow down to Adam: they bowed down except Iblis’, gives us the impression that Iblis was an angel. The Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her seperately.

Similarly in the Qur’an, when Allah addressed the angels, even Iblis was present, but it is not required that he be mentioned separately. Therefore according to that sentence Iblis may be an angel or may not be an angel, but we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn. No where does the Qur’an say Iblis was an angel. Therefore there is no contradiction in the Qur’an.


Another explanation:

Allow us to relate an example to make the point clear. When the ruling authority or central government appoints a Governor to a certain district, it is normal protocol that all the Generals of the army located in that district would have to come and salute the civilian Governor appointed by the central government. And when the General of the army salutes the civilian governor, it is only obvious those who hold ranks which are junior to the ‘General’, all the Captains, Majors, and soldiers of the army would also have to salute whom their General is commanded to salute!

Similarly, when Allah Subhanah Commanded the Angels to bow down to Adam (a.s.), all of those present who were junior in rank to the Angels were automatically included in that Command of their Lord Creator.

A third explanation similar to above:

When Allah Most Exalted commanded angels to prostrate before Adam, Satan was also included in this command. For although he was not of their kind, he resembled them and performed their deeds. Therefore, Satan was also counted as addressee to this command which was directed to angels. And he was condemned because he did not fulfill the command.
And Allaah (swt) knows best.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
it is just a question of what will make them flip and for Satan it was the creation of Adam!
an addendum for this post:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud (Radi-Allahu 'anhu):

Allah's Apostle (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam), the true and truly inspired
said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the
womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood
for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then
Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to
write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date
of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then
the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do good deeds till
there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been
written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds
characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man
amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and
the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his
behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of
Paradise."

Bukhari Vol. 4 : No. 430
Reply

theplains
12-05-2012, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
We don't add to the Quran that which wasn't mentioned that's how we know!
That's commendable.

Reading from the Abdullah Yusuf Ali, the verse in sura 2 says "We said to the angels: Bow down to Adam
and they bowed down; not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: he was one of those who reject Faith"

If Satan was a jinn at this time, why is he recorded as refusing to obey the command that God gave only
to the angels? Can you show me exactly where in the Quran or the Hadiths God commanded a jinn to bow
down before Adam?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
That's commendable.

Reading from the Abdullah Yusuf Ali, the verse in sura 2 says "We said to the angels: Bow down to Adam
and they bowed down; not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: he was one of those who reject Faith"

If Satan was a jinn at this time, why is he recorded as refusing to obey the command that God gave only
to the angels? Can you show me exactly where in the Quran or the Hadiths God commanded a jinn to bow
down before Adam?

Thanks,
Jim
God didn't give a command ONLY to the angels to bow- where did you get that from? Read post number 23 I have already taken care of the long and short of those queries!

best,


Reply

Hulk
12-05-2012, 10:13 PM
If it's too hard for you to comprehend that Iblis was a jinn then look at his excuse for not prostrating. He said himself that he is created from fire. Angels were created from light. It's not a "Iblis transform from angel into jinn" kind of thing. It's not something muslims "made up". And please look at Brother Muhammad's post to understand the verse. You are basing your question off your misunderstanding, same as roasted cashew. Where does it say that the command was only for the angels? The command was said to the angels. That doesn't mean that there was no jinn in the presence of the angels at that time. If you're a recruit in the army and you go to another platoon's bunk and the commander of that platoon walks in everyone will stand at attention, will you remain seated just because you're not from that platoon?

I'm going for surgery in a few minutes time so I can't post references but I'm sure the other members can help you out In Shaa Allah.
Assalamualaikum everyone.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Hulk
I'm going for surgery in a few minutes time so I can't post references but I'm sure the other members can help you out In Shaa Allah.
Assalamualaikum everyone.
wow should we be alarmed? in shaa Allah you feel better..
Reply

Hulk
12-05-2012, 10:21 PM
Just an ACL surgery though I'd be lying if I said I'm not nervous. Du'as are much appreciated :statisfie .
My trust is in Allah, for Allah knows best. Thank you sis!
Reply

جوري
12-05-2012, 10:27 PM
oh lol.. in shaa Allah you'll do great.. athletic you're I see.. that's good many in my family have had this injury plus tennis elbow plus meniscal tears they all survived the whole things took more time in prep than repair you'll do fine in shaa Allah we'll keep you in our du3as..
Reply

theplains
12-06-2012, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
God didn't give a command ONLY to the angels to bow- where did you get that from? Read post number 23 I have already taken care of the long and short of those queries!

best,

In post 23, you said "Iblis is introduced when Allah commanded everyone to bow down to mankind.
He chooses not to bow down. [38:71-76]".

I looked at the verses you mentioned and do not see Allah commanding 'everyone' to bow down
to 'mankind'.

Regards,
Jim
Reply

theplains
12-06-2012, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Hulk
Where does it say that the command was only for the angels? The command was said to the angels. That doesn't mean that there was no jinn in the presence of the angels at that time. If you're a recruit in the army and you go to another platoon's bunk and the commander of that platoon walks in everyone will stand at attention, will you remain seated just because you're not from that platoon?
If the commander commands all to stand up, all are required to stand up. But if the commander
commands only his platoon members to stand up, the recruit from the other platoon is not required
to stand up.

But getting back to our context. Does the command, which the Quran records as given to the angels,
include all creatures (jinns, trees, or other creatures created by God) even though they are not
specifically stated as being or not being present at the time? For example, can one speculate that
other jinns were present who obeyed the command, even though it is not recorded that they were
commanded too?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

جوري
12-06-2012, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
In post 23, you said "Iblis is introduced when Allah commanded everyone to bow down to mankind.
He chooses not to bow down. [38:71-76]".
show me where I said Allah commanded 'everyone' to bow to 'Mankind'


Originally Posted by ;1556119
I looked at the verses you mentioned and do not see Allah commanding 'everyone' to bow down
to 'mankind'.
That's because you added 'everyone' from your own imagination as well 'mankind' I said and let me quote myself:



Originally Posted by me
God didn't give a command ONLY to the angels
Does that translate to everyone in your book?
Reply

Muhammad
12-06-2012, 08:55 PM
Hello Jim,

I offered some possibilities to your query in the second part of my earlier post #28.
Reply

theplains
12-07-2012, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
Hello Jim,

I offered some possibilities to your query in the second part of my earlier post #28.
Thank you very much Muhammad. I appreciate it.

Jim
Reply

theplains
12-07-2012, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ

show me where I said Allah commanded 'everyone' to bow to 'Mankind'
Hello, see the post #23 of a few days ago. I don't think I can provide a direct link with a screen print on
my facebook page so you will have to see ... 134316680-sura-2-29-31-viceroy-earth-2.html#post1555933

I am assuming it is the same poster as you because the details of the poster appear to be the same ... female,
join date July 2006, description is "Apologize For Naught"

In that post 23, you are replying to someone called Roasted Cashew and you wrote, "Iblis is introduced when
Allah commanded everyone to bow down to mankind
. He chooses not to bow down."

I wish I could post a picture to show you, but I think you will be able to find what was written. No one else
mentioned that I misquoted you so I think I have the right person.

If I have the wrong poster, sorry.

Regards,
Jim
Reply

جوري
12-07-2012, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Hello, see the post #23 of a few days ago. I don't think I can provide a direct link with a screen print on
my facebook page so you will have to see ... 134316680-sura-2-29-31-viceroy-earth-2.html#post1555933
I did- I haven't seen 'All' nor 'Mankind'!
Originally Posted by theplains
I am assuming it is the same poster as you because the details of the poster appear to be the same ... female,
join date July 2006, description is "Apologize For Naught"
What is this all about? Yes I have been consistently replying to you- Have you read anything either Myself or Muhammad have written?


Originally Posted by theplains
In that post 23, you are replying to someone called Roasted Cashew and you wrote, "Iblis is introduced when
Allah commanded everyone to bow down to mankind. He chooses not to bow down."
That's an excerpt from another page neither from Quran nor Sunnah nor something I have personally written, rather an analogy meant to simplify things for him in some respects!

best,
Reply

theplains
12-07-2012, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
That's an excerpt from another page neither from Quran nor Sunnah nor something I have personally written, rather an analogy meant to simplify things for him in some respects!

best,
Thank you very much for the clarification. In the future, if you do these types of excerpts or use analogies from
non-Quran and non-Sunnah sources, please mention it. Sorry for the confusion on my part because I was
viewing it as something you said. Thanks again. I will review what you and Muhammad mentioned :statisfie

Regards,
Jim
Reply

IAmZamzam
02-23-2013, 02:01 AM
What on earth is the problem? Look, if there was some kind of misunderstanding, any sort of problem with the whole lot of them being addressed at once, then when God said, "Iblis, what's the matter that you didn't bow down when I told you to?" he could have replied, "Oh, I'm sorry, were you talking to me too?" and obeyed immediately. But he didn't. He decided to be a defiant smart-alleck instead. Because he knew very well that the command was for him as well. And what's more he went right on to take advantage of his Maker's mercy a moment later and then threaten Him to His face. I'd admire his chutzpah if he wasn't so stupid. Obviously he was a part of the group, and quite regularly got commands along with the rest, or at the very least did not suffer from any sort of communication breakdown on that particular occasion. The conversation did not betray any hint of confusion or misinterpretation.
Reply

Abu Loren
02-23-2013, 03:04 AM
The trouble with people like Mr. Plain is that they just don't want to SEE. I've come across people like him on many a forum. No wonder Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala calls them dear, dumb and blind and like cattle they don't have any understanding.:skeleton:
Reply

IAmZamzam
02-23-2013, 03:40 AM
The trouble with him may be more that he's here solely to provoke and to make us question our faith. That's what I'm beginning to suspect, anyway. He doesn't sound like an innocent inquirer who's here to learn about our religion. He sounds like someone with a repulsively transparent modus operandi of, "Hey, I'm asking an innocent question. I just came across this thing I don't understand and have no idea it looks like it completely incriminates your whole religion (to someone who hasn't seen this claim brought up and refuted nine hundred times before, probably even on this very board.) I hope I'm not troubling you guys too much. Hope you can help me. Thanks. Peace out!" What is it with these Christian evangelists, or the evangelistic types? Why are so many of them this immoral? Why are they so dishonest? It's probably because of the black-and-white, extremist mindframe they operate out of. Save people no matter what. It doesn't make any difference how you do it. Whatever it is it offends me so much I almost have tears in my eyes. This is not a good time in my life to be encountering people like him. All I can do is pray for him to know what real salvation is.
Reply

IAmZamzam
02-23-2013, 03:44 AM
Why have I never thought of doing this before? You're going on my "ignore" list, theplains. I beg you all to put him on your own as well. He's here to deceive and to provoke. Just block him now. Don't listen to a word he says, ever.
Reply

Abu Loren
02-23-2013, 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Why have I never thought of doing this before? You're going on my "ignore" list, theplains. I beg you all to put him on your own as well. He's here to deceive and to provoke. Just block him now. Don't listen to a word he says, ever.
I second that emotion because just look at the kind of questions that he asks.........
Reply

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