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NjmYqlb
02-11-2013, 06:08 AM
:sl:
This topic came from the 'Wake Up Project' forum by Leopraecordia. There is a Hadith;

‎"Gog and Magog will say, ‘We have defeated the people of
earth, and overcome the people of Heaven.’ Then Allah will send a kind
of worm in the napes of their necks, and they will be killed by it…"
(Reported by At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, and Ahmad)

And a few days ago there was news;

"Protein Sciences Corporation (PSC), explains that Flublok is produced by extracting cells from the fall armyworm, a type of caterpillar, and genetically altering them to produce large amounts of hemagglutinin"
(from naturalnews.com)

They are using Genetically Modified caterpillar cells to produce the vaccine. Could this be why there would be worms eating the neck of the Yakjuj wa Makjuj?
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syed_z
02-11-2013, 06:22 AM
1st of all may I ask you if your even aware of who Yajuj and Majuj are in this modern age of ours ?
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IAmZamzam
02-13-2013, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
1st of all may I ask you if your even aware of who Yajuj and Majuj are in this modern age of ours ?
Maulana Muhammad Ali argues pretty persuasively in the text notes of pages 607-609 of the New 2002 Edition of his translation of the Qur'an that Gog and Magog will turn out to be some European nations or other. As obviously influenced by feelings about the World Wars going on at the time as he must have been it is still extremely hard to argue with his strong reasoning and all the oodles of historical evidence he presents. There is way too much of it to type. I mean like a thousand words or more.

(In case you’re curious, this is the wall these peoples’ ancestors were imprisoned behind by Darius I (a.k.a. Zul-Qarnain): The Caspian Gates in Derbent, Russia. It’s all there in the aforementioned text notes.)

So the question is, are there any European nations involved politically when it comes to this science project?

Really, though, let’s not get too carried away by speculation about the future anyway.
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Scimitar
02-13-2013, 02:35 AM
Derbent Pass,

Daryal Pass,

Nordic Pass at the Nordic steppe,

And a strange metallic wall like structure in Greenland which is now buried under ice and used to be visible in google earth.

these are the four possible locations for the wall of Dhul Qarnain.

Whether it was Darius, his relative Cyrus, or someone else - Allah knows best.

Of the four locations, I tend to side with the Nordic Steppe, simply because we know that historically, the tribe of Magog were known as the Scythians. And the Scythains were the furthest north in Russian / Nordic territories. A little explored region due to climatic differences and a place that is still pretty much unmapped despite modern technology like google earth.

Derbent is unlikely as the location. And Daryal pass/gorge is quite possibly a better candidate than Derbent, simply because from aerial view, you can see very large, metallic type beams buried under moss growth - they seem to have collapsed, and funnily enough, no one comments on them from ground view because they are not so visible.

here is a shot from ground view:



Allah knows best

[yes yes, i'm going bed now, thank you]
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IAmZamzam
02-13-2013, 04:40 AM
Oh it's Darius, and it's that wall. Those notes I spoke of prove it fairly well. Shall I type them in tomorrow? I'm going to bed right now.
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Scimitar
02-13-2013, 04:48 AM
i'd love to see what you have. Insha-Allah ofcourse.

Good night bro,

I'm out too. Sleepy time.
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syed_z
02-13-2013, 08:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Of the four locations, I tend to side with the Nordic Steppe, simply because we know that historically, the tribe of Magog were known as the Scythians. And the Scythains were the furthest north in Russian / Nordic territories. A little explored region due to climatic differences and a place that is still pretty much unmapped despite modern technology like google earth.

Salaam Brother Scimitar and Yahya .... I believe its the Dariyal Pass...

What I see is that by you believing Nordic pass as the Wall of Gog and Magog, your completely overlooking the fact of Khazar Jews, the "13th Tribe" a book by Arthur Koestler , who are European Jews and are claiming the Holy Land to be their own (without them having any kind of share in the descent from Ibrahim (a.s)) and it is the Euro Jewish Elite from the Euro Jews who are the main backers of Zionism and are causing Havoc in the Middle East and Africa which I believe made Prophet (saw) wake up in the middle of the night with a shriek saying wailun lil 'arab..

....so I believe that Khazar Jews are a tribe that one should study and understand well before going in to the subject of Gog and Magog .....

Now yes there are other wild tribes of North Europe and Central Asia like Scythians and in the past like Mongols against whom even Chinese Kingdom had built Wall of China to protect against....but in the LAST Age i.e. our age.... it is the Euro Khazar Zionist Jews causing destruction.... And Allah (swt) knows best....

A Map of Khazaria Kingdom from 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler







Also important thing to mention is the Euro Zionist Jewish Families like Rothschild, originated from Khazar land. They choose who should rule in USA, U.K etc.
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Al-Mufarridun
02-13-2013, 09:39 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Maulana Muhammad Ali argues pretty persuasively in the text notes of pages 607-609 of the New 2002 Edition of his translation of the Qur'an that Gog and Magog will turn out to be some European nations or other.
Who is this translator? I'm not familiar with him.
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Scimitar
02-13-2013, 11:47 AM
Bro Syed_Z, assalaam alaikum dear ex wuppie like myself :D

I used to see it that same way too. But there are far too many inconsistencies with the Daryal Pass (known as Dar-e-Alan - ie: gate of the Alans).

You see, in the Caucus mountains ranges, there are 4 main passes, and each of them are mentioned in the historical record during periods when the gog and magog were supposed to be shut behind the wall. If that is so, then how come the tribes of men from southern regions were able to pass into northern territories? Makes absolutely NO SENSE.

Infact, there are so many inconsitencies with the caucus ranges when we look from a critically historical perspective, and not some book by Arthur Koestler.

Of course, if we go by the Jewish idea, then the gog magoggies are still hidden behind a wall. And let's not forget that the Jews believe Dhul Qarnain was actually Cyrus the Persian, as it is mentioned in their scripture.

I, personally, strike a chord with Shaikh Dr Ridhwan Saleem's opinion regarding the wall of Dhul Qarnain and who they might be.

Please watch both parts, this is a brilliant lecture, and expose of a very elusive study.

Part One


Part Two


I'm surprised vids like this get so few hits, and the ones which give hardly any value get more? very strange...

...But not as strange as seeing masjids built on the Caucus mountain ranges... tell me, how does gog and magog allow Muslims to build masjids on their mountain ranges if they really are gog and magog? I doubt the caucuses are the real location.

EDIT: Part two is particularly interesting in relation to determining who the Yajuj wa Majuj are, and where the wall most likely was situated. I do not believe it was anywhere near the caucuses anymore. Further study supports the idea that the tribes of yajuj wa Majuj were from the Nordic steppe and beyond.

Vikings and Normans - of whom, the Scythians were ancestrally affiliated - yajuj wa majuj. Just watch part two and you will see a process that leaves very little to the imagination.
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IAmZamzam
02-13-2013, 03:14 PM
I don’t think your rationale works, Scimitar. The Gog and Magog that were, and whom Dhul-Qarnain fought, had already been defeated long before the rise of Islam, remember?

As Wikipedia will tell you those gates were certainly at least built by some Persian king in the timeframe of Darius’s age. (They have, to be sure, come to be called “The Gates of Alexander” but this is due to the age-old misconception that Alexander the Great was Dhul-Qarnain, a mix-up that predates even The Prophet himself. It’s understandable that people got the two figures confused given that both men were great kings of Persian people about whom epic tales were told.) What’s more, as you are about to see, the wall matches the physical characteristics described in The Qur’an and there is a great deal more that matches besides. There are so very many notes to transcribe that I'll probably have to end up splitting this up into two posts. But I predict that there are matters here that will come up at some point in future discussions anyway so it’s a chore that must be done. I may as well get it out of the way now instead of having to do it later.

Part one: The notes on Dhul-Qarnain

The word “qarn” means a “horn”, as also a “generation” or a “century”, and “Dhu-l-qarnain” therefore literally means “the two-horned one”, or “one belonging to two generations” or “two centuries”. The reference here seems to be to the two-horned ram of Daniel’s vision (Dan. 8:3), which he interpreted as the Kingdoms of Media and Persia, which were combined into a single kingdom under one ruler, Cyrus, who is erroneously called Darius in the Bible (En. Bib. and Jewish E., Art. “Darius”). The reference in Daniel’s vision is, howver, not to Cyrus but to Darius I Hystaspes (521-485 B.C.), “who allowed the Jews to rebuild their temple, and is referred to in Ezra 4:5, 24; 5:5; 61; Hag. 1:1, 2:10; Zech 1:7; and probably in Neh 12:22. His liberality towards the Jews is in complete accord with what we know otherwise of his general policy in religious matters towards the subject nations” (Eng. Bib. “Darius”.)

That “the two-horned ram” of Daniel’s vision is the king of Media and Persia is made plain in Daniel’s book, where the interpretation of the dream is made plain in…Daniel 8:20. The reference in the Qur’an [to] Dhu-l-qarnain is to Darius I: “Darius was the organizer of the Persian Empire. His conquests served to round off the boundaries of his realm in Armenia, in Caucasus, and India, and along the Turanian steppes and the highlands of Central Asia (Jewish En., “Darius I”). The following remarks in the En. Br. strengthen this view: “Darius in his inscriptions appears as a fervent believer in the true religion of Zoroaster. But he was also a great statesman and organizer. The time of conquests had come to an end; the wars which Darius undertook, like those of Augustus, only served the purpose of gaining strong natural frontiers for the empire and keeping down the barbarous tribes on its borders. Thus the Persian dominion to the Caucasus; for the same reason he fought against the Sacae and other Tauranian tribes." The references in this quotation to Darius being a fervent believer in this true religion of Zoroaster, to his subduing the barbarous tribes on the borders, to his gaining strong natural frontiers for the empire, and to his fighting the Sacae clearly point him out as the Dhu-l-qarnain of the Qur’an....

The words in Arabic are “ain-in hami’at-in”, which literally mean “a black sea”, “ain’” meaning an “abundance of water”, or a place in which water remains and collects, and “hamiat” means “black mud”…The place referred to is no other than the Black Sea, as, Armenia being within the Kingdom of Persia, the Black Sea formed the northwestern boundary of the empire....

The three journeys alluded to seem to have been undertaken with the object of strengthening the frontiers of the empire the most important of these being that spoken of in v. 93, the part of the frontier between the Caspian and the Black Seas, where the Caucasus afforded a natural protection against the attacks of the Scythians. Darius goes first westward to the Black Sea (vv. 85, 86). Then he undertakes an eastward journey—the land of the rising sun. The description of the people found here, a people who had no shelter from the sun, is a description of the barbarous aboriginal tribes on the shores of the Caspian. The En. Br. says in the article on Media: “The names in the Assyrian inscriptions prove that the tribes in the Zagros and the northern parts of Media were not Iranians nor Indo-Europeans, but an aboriginal populations, like the early inhabitants of Armenia, perhaps connected with the numerous tribes of the Caucasus. We can see how the Iranian element gradually became dominant: princes with Iranian names occasionally occur as the rules of these tribes. But the Galae, Tapuri, Cadusii, Amardi, Utii, and other tribes in Northern Media and on the shores of the Caspian, were not Iranians”. The two mountains are the mountains of Armenia and Azarbaijan. The people settling there spoke a different language and could not understand the Iranian language….

Next we come to a statement that the tribes found by Darius between Azerbaijan and the Armenian mountains were constantly harassed by their northern neighbours, the Scythians. History bears evidence to the truth of this statement. The Scythians, or, according to some writers, the Sacae, constantly troubled Asia. According to Herodotus Darius undertook a war against the Scythians … The purpose of this war can only have been to attack the nomadic Turanian tribes in the rear, and “thus to secure peace on the northern frontier of the empire” (En. Br., Art. “Darius”). The portion which I give…shows that Darius exerted himself to his utmost in securing peace on the northern frontier of his empire, where the Caucasus, bounded on both sides by the Black and Caspian Seas, afforded a natural protection.

The barrier referred to in this verse, and described in the verses that follow, is the famous wall at Derbent….The following account [is] taken from “Encyclopaedia Brittanica…“Derbent or Darband, a town in Caucasia, is the province in Daghestan, on the western shore of the Caspian … It occupied a narrow strip of land beside the sea, from which it climbs up the steep heights inland … And to the south lies the seaward extremity of the Caucasian wall (50 miles long), otherwise known as Alexander’s Wall, blocking up the narrow pass of the Iron gate or Caspian Gate…This, when enitre, had a height of 29 feet and a thickness of about 10 feet, and with its iron gates and numerous watch-towers formed a valuable defence of the Persian frontier.” (Italics [around “its iron gates” and “valuable defence of the Persian frontier”] in the last sentence are mine…) The misnomer “Alexander’s Wall” seems to have been made due to the mistake made by Muslim historians in supposing Dhu-l-Qarnain to be Alexander. The blocks of iron [mentioned in The Qur’an] were needed for the iron gates in the wall.


Understand that Ali was not trying to depict Zoroaster as a genuine prophet of Allah. That wasn’t the point.



Part two: The notes on Gog and Magog. Note the part about where Jerome said Magog lived.

This verse brings us face to face with an all-important subject, viz., the identity of Gog and Magog. The Bible references to Gog and Magog are somewhat loose. In Gen. 10:2 and 1 Chron. 1:5 “Magog is mentioned as the second son of Japeth, between Gomer and Madai, Gomer representing the Cimmerians and Madai the Medes. Magog must be a people located east of the Cimmerians and west of the Medes. But in the list of nations, Gen. 10, the term connotes rather the complex of barbarian peoples dwelling at the extreme north and north-east of the geographical survey covered by that chapter … In Ezekiel 38:2 Magog occurs as the name of a country; in Ezek 39:6 as that of a northern people, the leader of whom is Gog” (Jewish En., Art. Gog and Magog”) “Josephus identifies them with the Scythians, a name which among the classical writers stands for a number of unknown ferocious tribes. According to Jerome, Magog was situated beyond the Caucasus near the Caspian Sea” (Jewish En.). The En. Br. considers the traditional identification of Gog and Magog with the Scythians to be “plausible”, and then adds: “This plausible opinions has been generally followed”, with this reservation, that the word may be applied to “any or all of the numerous but partially known tribes of the north; and any attempt to assign a more definite locality to Magog can only be very hesitatingly made.”

All these writers have, however, not paid sufficient attention to the words of Ezek. 38:2: “Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meschech and Tubal”. Tubal and Meschech are almost always mentioned together, and their identification has been a task of great difficulty, so much that a renowned Biblical critic suggests the names of certain nations in South Palestine. But this contradicts the views of ancient writers like Josephus, who settle the Magog north of the Caucasus. If we go, however, to the north of the Caucasus, we find still two rivers bearing the names of Tobal and Moskoa, on the latter of which is situated the ancient city of Moscow, and on the former the more recent town of Tobolsk. It seems almost certain that these two rivers received their names from the two tribes of Ezek. 38:2, the Tubal and Meschech, and and then gave their names to the two above-mentioned cities, thus keeping the names of these tribes. This view is in accordance with the opinion of Josephus, who identifies Magog with the Scythians, for “throughout classical literature Scythia generally meant all regions to the north and north-east of the Black Sea, and a Scythian and barbarian coming from these parts”. It is clear from the above that the name Magog stands for tribes which occupied territories to the north and north-east of the Black Sea, tribes which gave their names directly or indirectly to the towns of Tobolsk and Moscow.

There is, however, another point worth considering, and that is the gigantic effigies of Gog and Magog in Guildhall, London. “It is known,” says the En. Br., “that effigies similar to the present existed in London as early as the time of Henry V”. An explanation of this remarkable circumstance is given by Geoffrey of Monmouth: “Gaemot or his brother Gaemagot (probably a corrupted form of Gog and Magog) was a giant who, along with his brother Gorineous, tyrannized in the western horn of England until slain by foreign invaders” (En. Br.., Art. “Gog and Magog”). It is very difficult to speak with anything bordering on accuracy about the early connections of different races, but the preservation of the effigies of Gog and Magog in England, which can be traced to a very early period in English history, makes it probable that the Angles or the Saxons had in very ancient times some connection to the Scythians or other tribes living north of the Caucasus or the Black Sea. The relations of the different nations in early history are very complicated, and it is out of place to enter into any such discussion here. But it may be said that the Goths, who are considered to be the easternmost of the Teutonic races, are said to have migrated into Scythia (En. Br., “Goths”), which shows the existence of connection between the two races. And again, “the Batharnae also, who in the third century B.C. invaded and settled into the regions between the Carpathians and the Black Sea, are said by several ancient writers to have been Teutonic by origin, though they had largely intermarried with the native inhabitants” (En. Br., “Teutonic Peoples”). It is thus clear that the ancestors of the present Teutonic and Slav races are the Gog and Magog spoken of in the Holy Qur’an. The effigies of Gog and Magog in London and the names of Tobal and Mosko, occurring in the Bible, are clear indications of this fact.


I don’t always agree with Sher Ali and his often eccentric religious views, nor was he at all clear about which of his sources he was quoting after the words “with the opinion of Josephus etc.” (which may have been the editor’s mistake and not his), but his homework looks well done on the whole. I'm no historian but it at least doesn’t contradict anything I do know. There are ahadith about Judgment Day not coming until the people of the Romans form a majority amongst the people (of somewhere or other, at least). I don’t know what the status is of these ahadith but for your interest the reference is: Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Numbers 6,925-26. If this can be combined with the evidence listed above that Gog and Magog refers to some kind of European people or peoples, a war with Gog and Magog may refer to either the Italian army or a war stirred up by Vatican City. But like I said, the future is not ours to know. People since time immemorial have been looking for signs of Judgment Day occurring in their own lifetimes but “the knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none shall reveal it at its proper time, but He. Heavy is it in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but—suddenly!...The knowledge of it is only with God, but most men know it not.” (The Qur’an, Surah 7, verse 187, Arberry)
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cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
02-13-2013, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
As Wikipedia will tell you
Are you serious?

- cOsMiC
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IAmZamzam
02-13-2013, 03:43 PM
You know, it doesn't feel very good going to all that effort only to have someone apparently read only the first three sentences of my post and then dismiss the whole thing just because I happened to name-drop a name they don't like. Besides, the final few sentences are what really matters:

The future is not ours to know. People since time immemorial have been looking for signs of Judgment Day occurring in their own lifetimes but “the knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none shall reveal it at its proper time, but He. Heavy is it in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but—suddenly!...The knowledge of it is only with God, but most men know it not.” (The Qur’an, Surah 7, verse 187, Arberry)
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Scimitar
02-13-2013, 04:12 PM
Allow me to turn your understanding of this issue on its head, if I may.

First of all, I'd like to mention that this work is not mine, it is the authored work of Shaikh Dr Ridhwan Saleem, and thus, I credit him for the folllowing:

Praise be to Allah and peace and mercy upon His final Messenger
-
Introduction


The importance of the discipline of Eschatology within Islam is clearly demonstrated by the fact that two of the five questions of the ‘Gabriel Hadith’1 concerned the Last Day and its Signs.


The learned scholar, Shaykh Imran Husain, has proposed the idea that Gog and Magog have already been released from behind the barrier built by Dhul Qarnayn, by the permission of Allah the Majestic and Exalted. In fact, he argues convincingly in his book, ‘Gog and Magog in the Modern Age’, that the barrier was breached during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (upon him be peace) himself, thus fulfilling the command of Allah the Exalted, “When the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will bring it down.”


Shaykh Imran has suggested that Allamah Muhammad Iqbal may have been the first Muslim scholar to conclude that Gog and Magog have already been released. However, the present author has found that a very prominent scholar of the last century, Imam Anwar Shah Kashmiri, also took the stance that the Barrier of Dhul Qarnayn had been breached during the lifetime of the Prophet (upon him be peace and mercy) and that Gog and Magog have already been released. I have included a translation of the relevant passages from his masterpiece, Faydul Bari, commentary on Saheeh al Bukhari, in Appendix B for the readers’ benefit. The writing of Imam Anwar Shah on this subject adds credibility to the theory of Shaykh Imran, and throws the considerable weight of the Imam’s renowned scholarship behind the interpretations of Quranic verses regarding Gog and Magog that Shaykh Imran has given.


Shaykh Imran has made a strong case in support of his theory. It is not within the scope of this article to elucidate the details of his argument, but as this article builds upon his work, I would respectfully request my learned readers not to dismiss Shaykh Imran’s theory out of hand, and take the time to read his book. However, I will briefly summarise some of the Shaykh’s main ideas, at the risk of not doing justice to them. My aim in this article is to build upon his idea that Gog and Magog were released during the lifetime of the Prophet (upon him be peace), as indicated in the saheeh hadith:


1 See Hadith no. 2 of Imam al-Nawawi’s ‘Forty Hadith’ collection.


“Zaynab Bint Jahsh said that the Prophet (upon him be peace and mercy) came to her in a state of fear, and said, ‘There is no god but Allah. Woe to the Arabs from an evil that has come close. Today a breach has occurred in the Barrier of Gog and Magog, like this’, and he made a circle with his finger and thumb. Zaynab Bint Jahsh said: I said, ‘O Messenger of Allah! Would we be destroyed while there are good people amongst us?’ He said, ‘Yes, if the bad becomes much’ ” [al-Bukhari]


This particular hadith is narrated by multiple saheeh chains of transmission. At least four separate chains occur in ‘Saheeh al-Bukhari’ alone from prominent Companions. Thus, this hadith is from the strongest possible category of transmitted reports.


An authentic hadith in ‘Saheeh Muslim’ states that Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala will send forth the armies of Gog and Magog to fight against Prophet Jesus and his followers. Allah will say, “I have sent forth some of my slaves whom no-one has the ability to fight” [Muslim]. They will spread over the Earth causing destruction everywhere until Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala will destroy them with heavenly punishment, and save Prophet Jesus and the Muslims with him. As Imam Anwar Shah Kashmiri and Shaykh Imran have shown, this narration does not mean that Gog and Magog cannot be released prior to this time. Imam Anwar Shah states that they were released during the lifetime of the Prophet (upon him be peace), as the first hadith indicates, and they manifest again and again until their final and most severe manifestation is at the time of Prophet Jesus (upon him be peace). He likens this to the appearance of the deviant sect, the Khwarijites, who came forth generation after generation.


Both Imam Anwar Shah and Shaykh Imran show that the hadith of the descent of Jesus does not mean that the Barrier of Gog and Magog has to remain erect until that time. Nor does it mean that Gog and Magog could not have been released prior to the descent of Prophet Jesus.


However, a hadith which appears to contradict this opinion is found in ‘Jami` al-Tirmidhi’, in which Gog and Magog are described as “digging through the Barrier until they almost breach it”, but each time they return to continue their work, they find it blocked up again, and thus it continues until Allah wishes to release them. Regarding this hadith of Tirmidhi, Imam Anwar Shah states:


“this contradicts that which is in the saheeh, [that the Prophet (upon him be peace and mercy) said] that the Barrier was breached during his time, ‘like this’ (making a circle with his thumb and finger)….as well as the fact that Ibn Katheer deems this narration weak, and says that Abu Hurayrah
at times attributes it to the Prophet (upon him be peace) and at times to Ka`b. Wujdani agrees that it is not from the Prophet (upon him be peace) and actually from Ka`b himself.”


The second main theory put forward by Shaykh Imran is that, according to him, the Quran had informed us that the Jewish people would not return to the Holy Land until Gog and Magog had been released. Shaykh Imran gives a remarkable interpretation of the following ayahs of Quran regarding Gog and Magog:
“And there is prohibition upon [the people of] a city which We have destroyed that they will [ever] return
Until when Gog and Magog are let loose, and they, from every elevation, descend.”
[al-Anbiya:95-96]


Here, Shaykh Imran has identified the city mentioned in this ayah as the city of Jerusalem, and thus shown that the Jewish people will never return to the Holy City until Gog and Magog are released. That the ‘city’ (qaryah) mentioned in this ayah is Jerusalem is supported by various lines of evidence, expounded by the respected Shaykh, including the fact that the word ‘qaryah’ is used elsewhere in the Quran to refer to Jerusalem as well2. Thus, the creation of the state of Israel was an indication that Gog and Magog had already been released. We must say, at this stage: ‘Allah knows best’.

2 Baqarah: 259. “Or (bethink thee of) the like of him who, passing by a township which had fallen into utter ruin, exclaimed: How shall Allah give this township life after its death?...” Exegetes agree that the ‘township’ referred to here is Jerusalem.


In short, the interpretation of these ayahs would be:


“There is a ban on a town (i.e. Jerusalem) which we destroyed (and whose people were then expelled) that they (i.e. the people of the town) can never return (to reclaim that town as their own) until Gog and Magog are released and they spread out in all directions (thus taking control of the world while establishing the Gog and Magog world-order).”
Both Imam Anwar Shah and Shaykh Imran Husain have suggested that Gog and Magog are from amongst the European (including Russian) people. If we accept both points, the next question is as to the identity of these dangerous tribes that were released during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (upon him be mercy and peace), and the location of the Barrier of Dhul Qarnayn. This is where the author will differ from the view of the respected Shaykh, who has tentatively identified the tribes of Gog and Magog with the Khazar people of the Caucasus region in Central Asia. Others, such as Ahmad Thompson, have also implicated the Khazars as the original Gog and Magog people. However, the present author will argue that the case of the Khazar people does not fit in well with the information that we have concerning Gog and Magog in the Quran and Hadith literature, and that there is another people with a history that does fit in an uncanny way with the authentic Islamic sources. These people were the Vikings.




Weaknesses in identifying the Khazars as Gog and Magog.


I will not elaborate this point extensively as it will surely be clear to most people who delve into the history of the Khazar people that they do not fit the profile of Gog and Magog given in the revelatory sources except in some random characteristics.


The idea that the barrier of Dhul Qarnayn was situated in the Caucasus region came into Muslim thought through the influence of Jewish and Christian sources. Long before Islam, Jewish and Christian tradition had built a legend around the figure of Alexander the Great and identified him with the Biblical prophet who had been given dominion over the ends of the Earth and had built the great barrier to contain the tribes of Gog and Magog. The great wall of Alexander was thought to lie somewhere in the Caucasus region according to legend.


It is clear that these ideas were introduced into Muslim eschatological theory, as they have no basis in authentic revelation. Many Muslim scholars were not averse to taking ‘knowledge’ from the ‘Isra’eeliyaat’ or Jewish sources, although other scholars warned against this practice. Consequently, we find many books of tafsir identifying Dhul Qarnayn as Alexander the Great. Modern historical knowledge about Alexander, however, refutes the idea that he was a prophet or righteous man who believed in the One God.


Reasons against the Khazar people being Gog and Magog


1. The Quran describes that Gog and Magog were trapped behind the barrier and could not scale it or breach it. When they would be released, they would overrun the Earth. It is clear that the Khazar people were not trapped behind a barrier from all other people, either before the time of the Prophet (upon him be peace) or after. They were a nation of people whose relations with surrounding people are historically documented from prior to the final Prophecy.


2. It seems inaccurate to say that the Khazars stopped the Muslim armies from entry to Europe. There were clearly other routes into Europe from the Islamic Caliphate, including across the Mediterranean; it is well known that Islamic rule was established in Spain for centuries. Therefore, to say that the Khazars prevented Muslim expansion into Europe is to overstate their impact.


3. The Khazar people were from Central Asia, and thus surrounded by other ethnic groups and civilisations with whom they had extensive discourse. There is no suggestion that they were a people who were blocked off from the surrounding peoples of the world by natural or physical barriers.

History of the North Men, the Vikings

One of the genuine great mysteries about this period is why the Vikings emerged when they did. What made them suddenly want to raid and ultimately colonise in the way that they did?


- Prof Helena Hamerow, in ‘Lost Worlds: The Vikings’
Not long after the coming of the Final Prophet (upon him be peace) in Arabia, far away in the Northern depths of the Earth an eruption took place. This was the eruption of the Viking people from their homes in the chilled most northern regions of Europe upon the surrounding lands of Western Europe. This eruption resulted in what is now known as the ‘Viking Age’. I say ‘Northern depths’ of the Earth because, don’t forget, the traditional way of viewing the Earth was always with the North at the bottom. Only as Euro-Viking civilisation gained ascendancy over the Southern world was the map turned upside-down, a clear symbol of Northern hegemony and ascendancy.
About 150 years after the Prophet Muhammad (upon him be peace and mercy) revealed that a breach had occurred in the barrier holding back the tribes of Gog and Magog, the first Viking ships landed off the Northumbrian coast of Britain and laid waste to a monastery nearby. A people previously unknown to history had made their dramatic entry into the story of the European continent. From then on, the outpouring of Viking hordes, from the Scandinavian peninsula, continued for countless generations, terrorizing the people of surrounding lands.
For almost three hundred years, the Christian countries of Northern and Western Europe in particular were at the mercy of the Viking hordes, whose ships dominated the seas as pirates, invaders, plunderers, looters and mercenaries.

According to Roesdahl (1998):
“Never before or since have Scandinavians played so great a role abroad…[They] moved early from Limerick in the west to the Volga in the east, from Greenland in the north to Spain in the south. They appeared in many guises: as pirates, traders, extortioners of tribute, mercenaries, conquerors, rulers, warlords, emigrating farmers, explorers and colonisers of uninhabited regions…but what were the causes of this immense wave of outward activity?”


Historians have been unable to answer this puzzling question. Why did the Vikings pour out from their homeland at this particular juncture in history? Population pressure and the development of their famous longboats are two explanations that have been suggested, but neither is supported by historical evidence [Farrell, 1982]. According to historian, Kendrick, the Viking expansion was a huge outpouring of Northern peoples on such a scale that a “special explanation” is called for. [Farrell, 1982: p.1] In fact, Farrell, in his book ‘The Vikings’, goes so far as to say: “we can never hope to understand that activity or its causes fully”.
Unless of course we knew that, prior to this outpouring, a new people had been released from beyond the Northern mountains of the Scandinavian peninsula, who had previously been cut off from the rest of the population by impassable barriers. Once these new people, characterised by warlike, brutal activity, had established themselves on the peninsula itself, they looked to further lands for domination. From the other inhabitants of the peninsula upon whom they descended with aggressive force, they discovered the technology to build the ships for which they would become famous. Within a few generations, these unruly people were ready to embark on their voyages of plunder and conquest across the icy seas. They spread in all directions. Their motivation was, above all, greed and a lust for wealth.
Following the first attacks against England, the learned Alcuin of York wrote letters to King Ethelred of Northumbria:


“Lo, it is nearly 350 years that we and our fathers have inhabited this most lovely land, and never has such terror appeared in Britain as we have now suffered from a pagan race…”

By 795 AD, the Vikings had moved around Scotland, via the Isle of Iona, and reached Ireland. Iceland was settled in 870, Greenland in 985, and they had reached the shores of America by 1000. The East coast of the Baltic was settled even before the westward movements: by the 9th century, several parts of Russia and the South coast of the Baltic were settled by Viking invaders. Viking colonisers established the first Russian dynasty in Novgorod and Kiev, which became known as the Rus Empire. In 809, in mainland Europe, Charlemagne was planning an expedition against the Viking chief, Godfred. In 826, a pirate fleet of 13 ships was repulsed trying to attack Flanders. However, they raided the South of France and “seized great booty”. In 844, they were even making inroads into Spain. Seville was initially captured, but the Muslim imperial army soon put them to flight.


The cleric, Dudo, in Normandy [approx. 1020 CE] wrote of the Vikings:

“…these people who insolently abandon themselves to excessive indulgence, live in outrageous union with many women and there in shameless and unlawful intercourse breed innumerable progeny. Once they have grown up, the young quarrel violently with their fathers and grandfathers, or with each other, about property…”


Many Skaldic poems and rune stones claim that ‘honour’ and ‘loot’ were the main driving forces for the Viking expansion. Vikings first sought easy money, and then in time trading bases and land to dominate and inhabit [Roesdahl].


They were willing to do what was necessary to acquire wealth and property. Many adopted the Christian faith for pragmatic purposes and in order to establish their domination over the conquered people. Viking chiefs were granted regions by mouths of great rivers in exchange for protecting against pirates and becoming Christian.


One contemporary observer at the time wrote: “A deed which deserves every abhorrence that people who had brought evil on to Christians were placed in charge of Christian countries and people and of Christ’s church…”


By the ninth century, the Viking raids continued to increase – the tide could not be stopped. In Ireland, plundering escalated dramatically. In 845, Paris was conquered and looted. Around this time, the monk Ermentarius wrote in despair:


“The number of ships grows. The endless stream of Vikings never ceases to increase. Everywhere Christians are the victims of massacres, burnings, plunderings. The Vikings conquer all in their path and no one resists them. They seize Beardeux, Pergeux, Limoges…Toulouse. Angiers, Tours, and Oreleans are annihilated and an innumerable fleet sails up the Seine and the evil grows in the whole region.”


The sheer numbers of the Vikings was colossal, to the extent that some historians have dismissed reports in documentary sources as exaggerated. For example, the Viking King Horik, in 845, is reported to have sailed at the head of six hundred ships, each ship carrying fifty men. Priest Abbo relates that the Viking army outside Paris was 40,000 while defenders of city were only 200. Even Roesdahl, sceptical of such estimations, has to admit that the “armies that conquered the whole of England at beginning of the eleventh century were obviously huge.”


By the beginning of the tenth century, their invasions of mainland Europe had come to an end as the Franks and Germans finally managed to put up effective resistance against them. However, the Vikings remained firmly entrenched in the powerful region of Normandy in Northern France.


The other region that came firmly under Northmen domination and colonisation during the Viking Age was the archipelago known as the British Isles. In Britain and Ireland, the Northmen established themselves as nowhere else. Successive waves of invaders plundered, looted and often settled these lands. Between 1018 and 1042 (excluding a five year period), England and Denmark were ruled by one Viking King.


Further south, in Normandy, the Viking rulers soon adopted French names and titles, and re-styled as ‘Normans’ [from: ‘North men’], they proceeded to spread their domination over other regions. In 1066, William of Normandy invaded England and established Norman rule. Normans also occupied Southern Italy and Sicily and established their hegemony there. In Sicily, the Norman rulers, under the influence of the neighbouring Islamic civilisation, actually established one of the most enlightened kingdoms of medieval Europe. But this was the exception rather than the rule.


Christopher Walker identifies the rise of the Normans as a major factor in the start of the Crusades. He states, in his refreshingly even-handed book, ‘Islam and the West’:


“Within Europe a number of elements changed the prevalent attitude from peaceful pilgrimage to violent conquest of the Holy Land. The first was the coming of the Normans. This people, originally from Scandinavia, had within two generations remodelled itself as a dominant force within the society of Europe. They were assertive, dictatorial, controlling and militant, though sometimes content to act as mercenaries. They liked social hierarchies. If they could not be dominant they were content with submission; with a tendency towards warfare, they seem not to have rated equality highly. … But they were greater agents for change, perhaps as a result of their instincts for violence and hierarchy. They made their militant cause popular by gaining, where necessary the blessing of the pope, but were unafraid of excommunication. They used the papacy as they saw fit and the papacy made use of them. When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, his army was led by a knight carrying a papal banner emblazoned with a red cross; the invasion of England thus took on the appearance of a crusade before the Crusades. In dating the capture of Jerusalem (‘the event preferable to all events’), Foulcher of Chartres makes a point of indicating that it occurred twelve years after the death of William, King of England.”


Those readers who are familiar with the theory of Shaykh Imran Husain regarding Gog and Magog and the return of the Jews to Jerusalem will understand the implications of this important insight into the role of the Normans (ie. the Northmen) in the emergence of the Crusades.


But just as dramatically as the Vikings burst unto the European stage, they seem to disappear again from the pages of history. The English today refer to themselves as ‘Anglo-Saxon’, for example, not Viking or Norman. The reason for this apparent disappearance of Viking ancestry is simple. Wherever the Vikings settled, finding themselves amongst more ‘civilised’ people, they were keen to assimilate so as to add legitimacy to their claims of lordship and kingship. The word ‘Viking’ from vikingr, literally means ‘pirating’. The Vikings who settled in Normandy, for example, soon rid themselves of their ignoble past, took on French names and styled themselves after the French nobility, initially proclaiming themselves as ‘Counts’, and later as ‘Dukes’. Throughout Europe the term ‘Viking’ had become synonymous with piracy, barbarianism, and evil. It was the very opposite of decency, civilisation and virtue. It is no wonder that the Northern settlers were keen to rid themselves of their criminal history as they entered more civilised societies.


‘Anglo-Saxon’ is a term used by historians to designate the Germanic tribes who invaded the south and east of Great Britain beginning in the early 5th century CE. However, as we have seen, the Anglo-Saxon people were themselves conquered a few centuries later by successive waves of Vikings and their descendants, the Normans. Therefore, the designation of English people today as ‘Anglo-Saxon’ is not historically robust as it disregards the heavy genetic mix of the Viking hordes. Following the Norman conquest in 1066, the Anglo-Saxon nobility were either exiled or joined the ranks of the peasantry. It has been estimated that only about 8 per cent of the land was under Anglo-Saxon control by 1087. Until today, the British monarchy and aristocracy descend from Viking bloodlines, but, unsurprisingly, prefer to refer to their ancestry as ‘Anglo-Saxon’. The truth is that all British monarchs since William the Conqueror have been direct descendants of the Vikings.
But the prophecy that Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala will give Gog and Magog such power that “no-one can fight against” was not destined to be fulfilled during the Viking Age. It was to be the European descendants of the Vikings who would fulfil this prophecy. This power would be given to them many generations later, by Allah ta`ala, through the discoveries of science and military technology in the Modern Age.


The descendants of the Vikings in England continued in their forefathers’ footsteps, sending out ships in all directions to search for lands to exploit and colonise. The so-called ‘Voyages of Discovery’ were no more than a continuation of the Viking excursions of the early Middle Ages. The criminal piracy of the Vikings was sanctioned at the state level in England, and going under the new, glamorised term, ‘privateering’, the descendants of the Norman-Vikings continued their criminal excursions of looting and plundering. Thus the Elizabethan Age in English history is also known as the ‘Age of Privateering’. This despicable, criminal activity continued later into the European colonial period. The ‘gunboat diplomacy’ that colonial Europe became notorious for mirrors the unscrupulous, militant greed of Northman piracy. European colonialism was a natural progression of the Viking project.


The first spark of the flame that would eventually end in a today’s white world order was the release of a barbaric, heathen people from their ancient prison beyond the North-Western mountains of Scandinavia where they had remained cut off from the rest of humanity for untold ages. The great Prophet, Dhul Qarnain, had banished them across the mountains with his invincible armies by the power of Allah, and there they had remained, unable to breach the barrier erected by Dhul Qarnain, and surrounded on all sides by impassable mountains, great ice sheets and unchartered seas. Following their release during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (upon him be peace), they first moved out to invade and colonise the Scandinavian peninsula. Soon after, they began to pour out of Scandinavia and the centuries of terrorization, exploitation and occupation of surrounding European lands that characterised the ‘Viking Age’ commenced. Once firmly established in the power centres of Europe, especially the British Isles, the Viking genes turned in bloody terror towards the Holy Land, leading to the Crusades, which, for generations to come, would loom large in Western European imagination. The rest is history.


It is beyond the scope of this article, but it would be an interesting study to trace the extent of Viking gene dominance in European aristocracy. The royal families of Europe were extensively interrelated, and we have seen that the British monarchy and aristocracy are directly descended from Northmen ancestors. I also suspect that if someone were to trace the roots of the key instigators and executors of the Spanish Inquisition, he or she would find Viking/Norman blood. That’s just a suspicion.


Ancient History of Norway


The Quran mentions that Dhul Qarnayn - a righteous man, probably a prophet – was given immense power by Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala. He travelled first to the Easternmost end of the Earth and then to the furthest West and was given dominion over the peoples of both. Next, the Quran says he travelled again but does not mention which direction. The classical commentaries suggest that direction was North [Tafsir al-Razi, al-Kahf: 92]. The Caucasus region is North but clearly not the furthest North. It makes sense, considering his previous movements, that he travelled to the furthest Northern point, although the Quran is not explicit in this. The land of Norway is in fact possibly the most Northern hospitable region of the Earth. Most lands on the same degree of latitude, such as Alaska, Siberia and Greenland, are far colder and difficult to inhabit, but due to the warming effect of the Gulf Stream, Norway has a relatively moderate climate.


We know with a high degree of certainty that human beings first inhabited Scandinavia around 10,000 years ago. We know this because prior to that, the area was covered in ice. As the ice sheets receded at the beginning of our current interglacial period, pioneer settlements began to appear.


The Northern-Western region of Norway is separated from the rest of the Scandinavian peninsula by great mountain ranges. It is my suggestion that somewhere along these mountain ranges, Dhul Qarnayn’s armies drove back the troublesome tribes of Gog and Magog and built the great barrier described in the Quran, perhaps of a miraculous nature - we do not know. Gwyn Jones describes Norway as “that long, narrow, sea-and-mountain-boundaried, northward-running, eel-stripe of a country” [Jones: p.34] and “that upturned Keel of mountains running South from Finnmark almost to Staranger…made vast areas of Eastern and Western Scandinavia almost inaccessible to each other throughout the Middle Ages” [Jones: p.59]. The Norwegian mountains constitute a particularly hostile barrier to human settlement due to the fact that, with just a small increase in altitude, the moderating effect of the Gulf Stream is rapidly lost, and the climate reverts to intolerable Siberian levels.


The Quran tells us that when Dhul Qarnayn came to the land of Gog and Magog, he found another people living there who complained to him that they were being terrorized by Gog and Magog, and requested his help. According to archaeological evidence, Scandinavia has been inhabited by two distinct groups of people from earliest times. Archaeologists refer to the group beyond the mountains as the Komsa culture and the people of the southern and eastern areas as the Fosna culture due to differences in the patterns of archaeological remains. Jesch writes:


“The Scandinavian peninsula in early medieval times, as well as today, was ethnically and culturally a dual region, with a Saami minority speaking a language of the Uralian group, and a majority Germanic group. The Saami were the northern group, while the Germanic ethnic group inhabited the Southern regions of modern-day Sweden.” [Jesch: p.9]


Interestingly, latest forms of genetic analysis have revealed that the Saami people, who still inhabit Northern areas of the peninsula, have a large genetic separation from other Europeans:


“analysis of classic chromosomal marker variation have demonstrated that the genetic differences between the Saami and other European peoples are significantly larger than between any other pair of European peoples…
The Saami are regarded as extreme genetic outliers among European populations.” [Tambets et al, 2004].


This significant finding indicates that these people have remained separated from the rest of European peoples for an extensive period of time. This also fits with our theory that the Gog and Magog people were contained for hundreds, probably thousands of years, in the land behind the Norwegian mountains.
At the beginning of the medieval period, during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (upon him be mercy and peace), the Barrier was broken and they were able to cross the mountains. They descended upon the Germanic peoples who populated along the Swedish coast and uprooted them. Jesch describes the archaeological phenomena that give evidence for this.

*She states that something significant happened to the Germanic population during the period of late 6th to 7th century [ie around, or soon after, the time of the Prophet Muhammad (upon him be peace)], which she calls ‘the Change’ [Jesch: p.15]. Prior to this ‘change’, the Scandinavian farming societies lived and farmed peacefully with an economic system based on redistribution. But then “the extensive farming system…was abandoned and the cultural landscape slowly changed”. When the previous farming economy collapsed, “a large number of families left their homes. What happened to them and their animals? All we know is that in many regions the farms were never rebuilt and people never returned to their homeland and ancestral graves.” In other words, around about the same time as the
Prophet Muhammad (upon him be peace and mercy) informed members of his household in Arabia that a breach had today occurred in the barrier of Gog and Magog, there is evidence of the peaceful agrarian society of southern Scandinavia being uprooted and dispossessed. Upheaval was taking place in the Northernmost region of the Earth. A “different landscape” emerged on the Scandinavian peninsula. According to Jesch [p.18]:
“the landscape that emerged around 700 CE was different. The houses of the settlements were smaller, the byre had room for fewer animals, and only special people were buried under mounds. An intensified agriculture…had taken the place of the former extensive system. Fewer animals were kept and stalled through the winter months…new families came into power…emergence of memorial forms and a stratum of landholders who strived to acquire as much land as possible is characteristic…”*


In short, a new economic and political reality had emerged. This is explainable by an invasion from beyond the mountains.
Viking cheiftan, Hthor, told King Alfred of Wessex in 890CE that he was from further North than all the Northmen, ie from the land beyond the mountains. Gwyn Jones mentions that the Viking chief Offa (Olithere) said that:


”he lived farthest North of all the Norwegians. He lived in the North of the country alongside the Norwegian sea. He said though that the land extended a very long way North from there, but all of it is uninhabited except that in a few places here and there Lapps make their camps” [Jones:p. 158].

Ifsaad, Corruption and Destruction


One of the chief characteristics of the Gog and Magog people mentioned in the Quran is that they ‘cause corruption/destruction [fasaad] in the Earth’. They are ‘mufsidoon’, people who cause fasaad (‘fasaad’ includes all types of corruption, ruination and disorder). The form of the word, ‘mufsidoon’, is in the active participle category which implies that it is an abiding characteristic of these people, not a temporary one. In other words, one of the core characteristics of the Gog and Magog people is this aspect of causing fasaad. Hopefully, the reader will have gained enough insight from what has already been said to recognise this aspect in the Vikings and their descendants. One may validly argue that the Vikings have not been unique in this regard, and many other historical people have shown equally violent and warlike activity, for example the Huns or the Mongols to name a couple. The first reply to such an objection would be that the presence of other people who have the attribute of ifsaad is not excluded by affirming this attribute to Gog and Magog. In other words, it does not necessarily mean others cannot share in this attribute.


However, I would venture to suggest that the information we have regarding the Viking people reveals an exceptionally corrupt, ifsaadi nature. Of course, historical reports, especially by enemies, can be exaggerated for all sorts of reasons.

Interestingly, a Muslim traveller and writer by the name of Ibn Fadhlan met a group of Northmen on his travels and wrote about them. He was not impressed:
“they are the filthiest of Allah’s creatures. They do not wash after defecating or urinating, nor after sexual intercourse, and they do not wash after eating. They are like wayward donkeys.” [Roesdahl: p. 34].


Ibn Fadhlan also noted: “they all washed themselves in the same tub of water, and they made no attempt to seek privacy when they lay with their female slaves.” Ibn Fadhlan also mentions: “a man will have sexual intercourse with his slave girl while his companion looks on. Sometimes whole groups will come together in this fashion, each in the presence of the others.” [Jones: p. 164].

Several of Ibn Fadhlan’s observations of the Northmen regarding burial practices have been confirmed by archaeological evidence. Ibn Fadhlan’s descriptions, moreover, correlate with European accounts cited above. The cleric Dudo wrote of them, “Once they have grown up, the young quarrel violently with their fathers and grandfathers, or with each other, about property…”


I would suggest that two of the characteristics mentioned here, namely of having public sexual relations and fighting one’s own parents, are such immoral, undignified and dishonourable actions as to be found rarely amongst other peoples, even barbarian types, such as the Mongols or Huns. Most societies have respected their elders, especially one’s own parents; and acts of intimacy, by human nature, are kept private. It seems, in fact, that these people lacked the basic qualities that distinguish the human being from animals, who seek only to satisfy their natural appetites. Have there been other people in history that have descended to this level of depravity?


The Thing

A fascinating aspect of the Viking people was their system of government, if one can call it such. They were the first western Europeans to have a ‘democratic’ system. There would be a public assembly of all landowning freemen, known, bizarrely, simply as ‘the Thing’, which was “the cornerstone of democracy and authority” in the Viking Age. Each district had its own Thing which met once or twice a year. Its function was to be a forum where matters of local importance could be debated. Kings were elected, new laws were discussed, disputes over property were resolved, and violent crime and theft were adjudicated upon. Above the district assembly was the regional Thing. The Vikings exported this form of government to many of their colonies overseas [Chartrand et al, p. 27].
Is it possible that the ‘Thing’ of the Vikings is the true cultural precursor to modern European democratic systems, rather than the democracy of Ancient Greece as if often imagined? Once again, are we observing the historical, perhaps unconscious, attempt by Europeans, embarrassed by the Viking roots of their democratic systems, to gloss over their true heritage and connect their cultural history to ancient Greco-Roman civilisation instead? It is far more reassuring to trace one’s traditions to the great historic civilisations of Greece and Rome than to the piratical hordes of the Vikings, a people without ancestry, history or civilisation. Surely, it is no coincidence that Britain, the primary colony of the Viking hordes, was the first country to later develop ‘democratic’ institutions.


A core feature of ‘democracy’, and this explains why it appealed to the Viking mentality, is that it is essentially a denial of any higher moral authority. The people themselves decide their own rules and laws. Thus, nothing and nobody can prevent the people from doing what they want to do. It is a system which rejects revealed guidance and Divinely-ordained constraints upon human behaviour. It safeguards the freedom of the human creature to pursue any activity he finds desirable as long as there is approval from the collective. The Viking rejected authority, he felt no inclination to bow to God or king. This inherent rebelliousness, known as baghy in Arabic, is one of his defining characteristics.


Language

The Quran mentions that when Dhul Qarnayn arrived at the land of Gog and Magog, he found a people who could “barely understand a sentence” [al-Kahf: 93]. It is not clear whether this refers to the Gog and Magog or the people who sought help from Dhul Qarnayn. I do not know if it is related but historians do mention that the language of the Vikings, Old Norse, was an almost incomprehensible tongue even to the speakers themselves. One author states:

“Beyond doubt then, the Skaldic verse is our most valid and genuine literary data on the heathen or Viking age. On the other hand, much of it is so complicated and abstruse that it cannot be understood today, even by experts. Indeed, it is doubtful if some of the verses were completely understood by the poet's contemporaries…Their more formal and elaborate verses could not be composed, appreciated, or understood without an arduous and consciously acquired technical education. A part of their technique involved the extravagant use of the implied simile, the kenning—that is, whenever possible, the Skald refrained from calling a being or thing by its ordinary name and instead invented a name (or used an already established invention) that displayed his intimate knowledge of the mythology”.


Horned Helmets?


Vikings, in popular culture at least, tend to be depicted with the characteristic horned helmets. Is it a coincidence that Gog and Magog were banished behind the barrier by Dhul Qarnayn, which means, literally, ‘the Possessor of Two Horns’? Historians say that there is no real evidence of Vikings wearing bi-horned helmets, but there is some evidence of them using such helmets in some of their pagan rituals. Is it possible that these people, trapped for thousands of years apart from the rest of humanity, incorporated into their mythology the legend of an ancient time when a man, a ‘Possessor of Two Horns’, had banished them into their icy prison where they were destined to remain until the Last Days?

“From the oldest times has Dovrefjell been the border region between the northern and southern parts of Norway, and the road over the mountain was well known. The expression "til Dovre faller" ('until the Dovre mountains fall apart' ie until the end of the world) is widely used in Norwegian.”

The Time Issue


Shaykh Imran Husain has made a convincing case that within the European people, and their North American progeny, are the Gog and Magog people prophesized in the Quran. The ‘New World Order’ is the World Order of Gog and Magog. Indeed, it seems they have been given such a power that no-one is able to defeat except Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala Himself. The object of this article has been to show that it was the Vikings that were the precise Gog and Magog entity that were released and infiltrated the European peoples. The Vikings and their descendants are the Gog-Magogian element within European civilisation.
One may reasonably ask how it is possible that the Vikings could have been Gog and Magog when they emerged over a thousand years ago, and the hadiths mention that Gog and Magog will fight Prophet Jesus (upon him be peace) when he returns to this world near the end of Time. How is it possible that the prophecies regarding Gog and Magog come to be fulfilled over forty generations after they first emerge? Does this make any sense? Is there even any trace of the original Gog and Magog people left after so many centuries of interbreeding and mixing of genes with other peoples?


With regard to the passing of many generations since their first release, the Quran provides us with another example of such a phenomenon and proves that a people may still be considered intimately related to distant forebears. The Prophets Abraham and Ishmael prayed to Allah to make from their progeny “a believing nation”, and to “raise a prophet from amongst them”. This supplication was fulfilled thousands of years later when the Final Prophet Muhammad (upon him be peace and mercy) was sent to the Arabs and the whole of Mankind. This indicates that the passing of many generations does not preclude a progeny from intimate association with their forefathers, in the Quranic paradigm.


The other interesting observation in this regard concerns one of the ayahs of Quran which mention the Gog and Magog, namely:

“And there is prohibition upon [the people of] a city which We have destroyed that they will [ever] return
Until when Gog and Magog are let loose, and they, from every elevation, descend.” [al-Anbiya:95-96]


The word used here to describe the movement of Gog and Magog from every elevation [ie every place (think world order)], is ‘yansiloon’, translated as ‘descend’ in the translation above. Others have translated it as ‘swiftly swarm’. The word ‘yansiloon’ is profound in our context, as it is derived from the root, nasl, which means, literally, ‘progeny’. The idea of ‘yansiloon’, ‘to descend’, is derived from the descent of the baby out of the mother’s womb. Here, a clue to support our theory of the coming forth of Gog and Magog as an emergence over many generations lies in the ayah itself, but Allah knows best. To close, we can quote a powerful verse penned by the great Indian Muslim scholar and poet, Muhammad Iqbal, who wrote:


With cleverness/wisdom and prudence this uproar (chaos) cannot be delayed Because “Wa Qad Kuntum Bihi Tasta’jilun”
Gog and Magog all have been released The Muslim eye will see the meaning of 'Yansilun'


It is possible that Iqbal had taken this idea from Imam Anwar Shah, and Allah knows best. Could it be that the words, ‘from every elevated place’, predict the use of air travel? The armies of Gog and Magog descending from the skies? And Allah knows best.


We seek refuge with Him from all evil, deviation, misguidance and corruption. And we ask Him to enter us amongst His believing slaves. May peace and mercy be upon the Final Messenger and his family and Companions and all those who follow in their footsteps until the Last Day. And finally, all praise is to Allah the Creator and Lord of the Heavens and the Earth.


In dire need of his Lord the Exalted and Majestic, RIdhwan ibn Muhammad Saleem
19 Muharram 1433/15 December 2011 West London School of Islamic Studies
Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem

References


Chartrand et al: The Vikings: Voyagers of Discovery and Plunder. (2006)
Farrell, Robert: The Vikings. Phillimore, (1982)
Hamerow, Helena: Lost worlds, The Vikings. Television documentary shown on History Channel.
Husain, Imran: Gog and Magog in the modern age.
Jesch, Judith [ed.]: The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century: an ethnographic approach (2002)
Jones, Gwyn: The Vikings. (1993)
Kashmiri, Anwar Shah: Faydul Bari, Sharh Saheeh al-Bukhari. Publ: Dar al-kotob al-ilmiyah (2005)
Razi, Fakhr al Deen: al Tafsir al kabeer
Roesdahl, Else: The Vikings. Penguin; 2Rev Ed (1998)
Tambets, Kristina et al: The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saami—the Story of Genetic “Outliers” Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes. American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 74, Issue 4, April 2004, Pages 661-682
Walker, Christopher: Islam and the West (2005)
Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem Page 21
Appendix A
“When I have been in Norway, or Denmark, or among Scandinavians, I have felt something like a cry of nature from within, asserting (credibly or otherwise) my nearness to them.”
- Gladstone
`
Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem Page 22
Appendix B
The following are excerpts from Faydul Bari, commentary of Saheeh al Bukhari, by Imam Anwar Shah Kashmiri (d. 1342 H). Imam Anwar Shah was one of the greatest scholars of his time. He was considered an Imam in Tafsir of Quran and Hadith, and was renowned for his piety and prophetic character. The main body of the excerpts are from the Chapter on The Story of Gog and Magog [bab qissatu ya’juj wa ma’juj], Book of Hadiths about the Prophets [kitab ahadith al anbiyaa’] – Faydul Bari, vol. 4, p. 351, publ: Dar al-kotob al-ilmiyah (Beirut), 2005.
Please note that this is a ‘rough and ready’ translation of the selected passages just to give an idea of the Imam’s thoughts, and readers are advised to refer to the original text for enhanced accuracy. Words within square brackets are inserted by myself for explanatory purposes.
Chapter on Fighting the Jews
His saying: "This is a Jew behind me, so kill him".
These are the [Jews] whom Jesus (upon him be peace) will descend to fight against, not the rest of the Jews of the world. They are [only] the ones who will follow the Anti-Christ...
Know that it is not unlikely that Gog and Magog are the people of Russia and Britain. The meaning of them 'coming forth' is 'attacking'. They have 'come forth' many times….
It is possible that they [Gog and Magog] will come forth from their progeny at a time that Allah has decreed, and will spread corruption through the earth. As for the Barrier, it has already collapsed. I have shown in my epistle, 'Islamic Doctrine', that [Gog and Magog] are none other than human beings, and that the meaning of them 'coming forth', khuruj, is related to causing corruption [ie it does not mean they will break through the Barrier at that time]. [I have shown also] that the Barrier is not preventing their movement any longer…
Chapter on the Story of Gog and Magog.
...there is no doubt that he [Dhul Qarnayn] was a righteous man. As for whether he was a prophet or a saint - Allah knows best. What is apparent is that he was not the Greek, Alexander - this is Razi's opinion, and Hafiz [Ibn Hajar]’s. Aristotle was one of his ministers, and used to prostrate to him. He was the first to write on Geography, and mentioned therein the Barrier. This proves that the Barrier existed before the time of Alexander the Greek....
The Barrier of Dhul Qarnayn has already collapsed. The Quran nowhere demands that it must remain [erect] until the 'coming forth', khuruj, of Gog and Magog, or that the Barrier
Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem Page 23
prevents them from 'coming forth'. These are just unwarranted conclusions that are reached [from the Quranic verses]. Allah said, "We leave them, some of them surging upon others, that day" [Kahf: 99], "Until, when Gog and Magog are released..." [Anbiya: 96]. Therefore, they will come forth time after time. They came forth before that as well, and caused corruption and destruction upon the Earth in ways unmentionable. Yes, there is a destined time for them to come forth at the End Times, and that will be the most severe of their manifestations. However, the Quran does not state that this last manifestation will take place immediately after the collapse of the Barrier. The Quran only promises that the Barrier will collapse. And it has collapsed as was promised.
As for their emergence taking place immediately after its collapse, there is no basis for that. Do you not see that the Prophet (upon him be mercy and peace) counted his own demise as being from the signs of the Last Hour, as well as the conquests of Jerusalem and Constantinople? Did they occur immediately, or was there a long gap between them? The same is the case with this text. Yes, the text does state that their coming forth will not be until after the collapse [of the Barrier]. But it does not say that it will not collapse until they come forth.
As for what regards Gog and Magog themselves: know that they are the progeny of Yafuth, by consensus of the historians...and Britons admit that they are from the progeny of Magog. Similarly, Germany is from them. As for Russia, they are from the progeny of Gog. These are all naught other than human beings.
The meaning of 'coming forth', khuruj, is entering into battle, and causing destruction and corruption. There is no doubt that this will take place in its appointed time...the Barrier is [no longer] preventing them from causing corruption and destruction. They will come forth against the rest of mankind at one time when they will be destroyed by the supplication of Jesus (upon him be peace).
Someone may object that [I have contradicted this by saying that] the physical obstacle has been removed from them a long time ago, ie the Barrier has collapsed, and they have already come forth. My reply is that this coming forth [of Gog and Magog] is not the one intended, as Jesus has not yet descended. The affair will continue in this manner until some of them [Gog and Magog] come forth, who have not emerged before, and who will be the ones at the time of Jesus (upon him be peace). In other words, they come forth time after time [until the final ones at the time of Jesus], just like the coming forth of the Khawarij [a deviant sect who emerged time after time in generation after generation]. It is not one single emergence from behind the Barrier.
The Quran does not mention the word, khuruj, from behind this Barrierin the ayah of Surah al Kahf. Only the Barrier is mentioned. As for the verse in Surah Anbiya, "Until, when Gog and Magog are released", there is no mention of the Barrier, hence this ‘release’ is more general. It is as if the ayah, “And We leave some of them, that day, to surge against others”, appears to allude to two distinct groups of them - some of them come forth from behind the Barrier and some from elsewhere. It is as if the collapse of the Barrier is the place where some of them emerge, and the time for others of them to come forth....
Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem Page 24
…it has been mentioned that…In the Roman archives, it is written in Hebrew script that after 4,291 years, the world will remain orphaned, and the wars of Gog and Magog will rage therein, and the rest of the days will be the days of the Masheeh. [The days of Masheeh], according to Jewish chroniclers, are the days of the Seal of Prophets (upon him be peace and mercy). And the world would be left orphaned after him, without any guide, ie prophecy would end. After that - following much good [that would follow the last Prophet] - would come the bloodsheds of Gog and Magog. That is when Jesus (upon him be peace) would descend...
So, Gog and Magog are not confined to only those who were trapped behind the Barrier. The Quran mentions both those [who were behind the barrier] and those who were not. That is because the question was about Dhul Qarnayn, not about Gog and Magog alone. So [Allah] mentions first the specific group who were trapped behind the barrier, then generalises when He says, "That day, We leave some of them to surge against others". This, then, refers to a continually repeating process, until finally the last group [of Gog and Magog] will emerge at the time of the descent of Jesus (upon him be peace]. Thus, in this instance the Quran is more general than the Hadith. Similarly, the words of Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala, "and from every elevated place, they descend" [Anbiya:96], mentions every elevated place [ie not just from behind the Barrier]. This makes sense if it is established that the Europeans are from them [ie Gog and Magog], and that they emerge again and again. And [in the ayah in Surah al Kahf] the Quran mentions specifically those who were trapped behind the Barrier, but it does not state that the Barrier cannot be destroyed or that they cannot emerge time after time, until their final emergence at the time of the descent of Jesus (upon him be peace).
The beginning of the collapse of the Barrier took place during the time of the Prophet (upon him be peace and mercy) when he said, "Woe to the Arabs, from an evil that has drawn close. Today, a breach like this has occurred in the Barrier of Gog and Magog"...
it is mentioned in the Book of Ezekiel that they will emerge against the Children of Israel...and they will come from the furthest North-West, as many nations - none but Allah knows their number - and cause corruption and destruction, and they will seek [to conquer] Jerusalem…
It is mentioned in the prophetic hadiths that they will head for Jerusalem, but this is not directly linked to the collapse of the Barrier...
And the ayah, "Until, when Gog and Magog are released..." does not say, 'until the Barrier is opened'...
It is important to know that the saying of Dhul Qarnayn, "When the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it to collapse", is from himself. There is no evidence that it is meant to be from the signs of the Hour. Perhaps, he had no knowledge of that. He meant by 'promise' the promise that it would collapse. In this case, the words of Allah, "And We leave some of them to surge upon others" would signify a continually repeating process [ie. successive emergences of Gog and Magog]. True, the words of Allah, "Until, when Gog and Magog are released, and from every elevated place they descend" refer to a sign of the Last
Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem Page 25
Hour, but there is no mention of the Barrier in this ayah - therefore, understand the difference!
Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem Page 26
Appendix C
92. Then followed he (another) way,
93. Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word.
94. They said: "O Zul-qarnain! the Gog and Magog (People) do great mischief on earth: shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them?
95. He said: "(The power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): Help me therefore with strength (and labour): I will erect a strong barrier between you and them:
96. "Bring me blocks of iron." At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain-sides, He said, "Blow (with your bellows)" Then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said: "Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead."
97. Thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it.
98. He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true."
99. On that day We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another: the trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together.
- [Surah al-Kahf]
Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem Page 27
“And there is prohibition upon [the people of] a city which We have destroyed that they will [ever] return
Until when Gog and Magog are let loose, and they, from every elevation, descend.”
[al-Anbiya:95-96


Copyright © 2012 by Rizwan Saleem

Source: http://www.wlsis.org/index.php?optio...cles&Itemid=40

He's most definitely provided a very worthy insight into the identity of the Goggies and Magoggies, and in this regard, his view shifts from that of Imran Hosein - and if I am to judge by evidence alone, I would most definitely side with Shaikh Dr Ridhwan Saleem's theory over Shaikh Imran Hosein's. Simply because Imran Hosein cannot provide the proof to back his claim and there are waaaay too many holes in the Caucus mountains theories. Especially when we consider the Silk road. And that also throws Imran Hosein's theory about the identity of the Goggies Magoggies into deep water.
However, i pretty much agree with his other theories.

And Allah knows best.

Scimi

EDIT: and yes, WIKIPEDIA is hardly a reliable source - any tom dick and harry can edit in there and promote falisties from a moronic world view.
Reply

Scimitar
02-13-2013, 04:20 PM
Bro Yahya Sulaiman, instead of looking for the comparative between religious views on G&M from various doctrines - why not look at history itself? And see if it aligns with Islamic understanding of G&M instead? This is a method I would like for you to follow.

If you can understand and appreciate the comparative method, you will find that Shaikh Dr Riyadh Saleem makes some very scholarly points of address on the whole issue regarding the identity of G&M.

Scimi
Reply

IAmZamzam
02-13-2013, 04:37 PM
Oh I definitely agree that Gog and Magog have risen up time and again throughout history. It's not like so many generations of people could have just sat there impotently behind a wall for hundreds of years and never found a way to scale it or go around it. The thing served a temporary purpose. If Sher Ali was wrong then there are an awful of coincidences to explain, including a lot of independent sources in different countries and eras whose evidences lines up, as well as a possible connection to ahadith. I think what I've already posted speaks for itself.

We have, however, strayed quite far from the point. NjmYqlb has asked about a possible connection between FluBlok and Gog and Magog. So far, at least, no politics have entered into the picture so until we hear about foreign nations getting their noses into it I don't see any reason to even begin speculating.
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Scimitar
02-13-2013, 04:58 PM
Allah has power over all things.

Scimi
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Al-Mufarridun
02-13-2013, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
You know, it doesn't feel very good going to all that effort only to have someone apparently read only the first three sentences of my post and then dismiss the whole thing just because I happened to name-drop a name they don't like. Besides, the final few sentences are what really matters:
Why do you have such a hard time answering simple questions without going all defensive. You mentioned a translator i wasn't familiar with, so i asked you if you could tell us a little bit about him, that doesn't mean I didn't read your whole post.

______________
Muhammad Ali (1874–1951) (Arabic: محمد على‎) was a Pakistani writer, scholar, and leading figure of the Ahmadiyya Movement.(Wiki)
______________


I'm guessing you belong to the Ahmadiyya movement?
Reply

IAmZamzam
02-13-2013, 07:57 PM
That was a response not to a question about Ali but to a dismissal of a post it took me I have no idea how long to transribe with my fibromyalgia-riddled fingers on the grounds that I name-dropped Wikipedia once at the very beginning of it. If I did get a little defensive, you can easily see why. Maulana Muhammad Ali was a translator of The Qur'an who wrote extensive text notes for his translation. I don't always find either his Ahmadiyya views or even his own individual interpretations appealing (at times he seems to be bending over backwards to avoid interpreting any and every miracle literally) but when he drops them for a minute and cites solid, hard facts from unbiased sources he tends to know his stuff and I'm always careful about the ad hominem fallacy and hope all of you guys are too.
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Scimitar
02-13-2013, 08:19 PM
Ahmadiyah movement ;D sorry. *eye brow raisers grow stern looking foreheads* (does eyebrows raisers) :^o)

Bro, it's all good to seek knowledge from wherever ye may find it, so long as the source is what?
















...credible.

however, he hasn't really said anything different to what some Sunni scholars have said regarding the location of the wall/barrier. So really, split of hairs I guess. Null pointer.
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syed_z
02-14-2013, 01:11 PM
Asalaam O Alaikum brother Scimitar...

If i havent read the book "How Islamophobia came to the British Isles" by Brother Yaseen Ahmed.... it would have been really hard for me to believe that Vikings could have been one of the Gog and Magog forces....

The book can be viewed on www.kalamullah.com. If you want to convince some one about Sheikh Ridwan Saleem's article then do advise them to read this book and it would definitely make sense....

However, I would not completely throw away all the evidence provided by those who believe Khazar Jews to be part of Gog and Magog forces....rather the evidence about Khazar Jews being part of Gog and Magog forces is a lot more and convincing than the Vikings theory especially as the European Jews following godless political Ideology of Zionism are at the forefront in what happening right now in the Middle East.

I will InshA'Allah make another post explaining whatever information I have.
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IAmZamzam
02-14-2013, 01:41 PM
"The European Jews following godless etc."...I hope you didn't mean anything anti-Semitic by that? If I were you, I'd watch how you phrase things.
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cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
02-14-2013, 01:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
"The European Jews following godless etc."...I hope you didn't mean anything anti-Semitic by that? If I were you, I'd watch how you phrase things.
again I ask.

Are you sirius? XD

Please don't skim through posts, there's a reason he phrased it as he did. Did you watch the videos provided and all of the information plus books? If not then should you really be concerned and advising others?

This subject is vast, and a few wiki articles don't cut it!

anti semetic. :heated:

- cOsMiC
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IAmZamzam
02-14-2013, 02:22 PM
He didn't provide any of those things. Perhaps all of the genuine examples of anti-Semitism I've seen at boards such as this one have made me a little jaded but you have to admit, when people speak of entire groups of people like "The European Jews" as doing "godless" things it comes across as sounding a little racist and makes them appear tactless at the very least. If nothing else it was a very poor choice of words.

From the way you talk one would think I use Wikipedia as my sole source of learning because I cited it once in passing as a quick reference point.
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syed_z
02-14-2013, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
"The European Jews following godless etc."...I hope you didn't mean anything anti-Semitic by that? If I were you, I'd watch how you phrase things.
Political Zionism is a godless Ideology, whose purpose is to bring the jews back to the holy land by hook or by crook.....it has nothing to do with Judaism.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com
True Torah Jews is a non-profit organization dedicated to spreading the word to the people of the world that not all Jews support the Zionist state. It is our hope that through this knowledge and understanding peace may be achieved.

The Jews themselves are calling these War Mongering leaders of Western Europe i.e. Christian Zionists and their allies the Jewish Zionists as against Judaism.
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syed_z
02-14-2013, 02:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
"The European Jews" as doing "godless" things it comes across as sounding a little racist and makes them appear tactless at the very least. If nothing else it was a very poor choice of words.
Whoever follows Secular ideology of Zionism, whether he or she is a European Jew or no, is following a godless ideology and it is NO surprise that majority of Jews who are Zionists are unfortunately European!
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IAmZamzam
02-14-2013, 02:31 PM
Okay, I've looked it over a second time and I now see that depending on how the sentence is interpreted the phrase "the European Jews following godless political Ideology of Zionism are at the forefront in what happening right now in the Middle East" could simply mean "[those particular] European Jews [who are] following" etc. but I can hardly be blamed for my misunderstanding given the mistake in the writing. If he hadn't left out a "the" or "that" then I would have likely understood the ambiguous meaning, as the sentence would have flowed more naturally and registered better.

All the same, syed, my apologies. Let me give you some reputation points or something to make for not giving you the benefit of the doubt.
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syed_z
02-14-2013, 02:41 PM
I am sorry actually English is not my native language .... I am a Pakistani, Urdu is my native language. Sorry for any misunderstandings.
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IAmZamzam
02-14-2013, 02:54 PM
I'm the only one who should be sorry. But you must understand, that kind of thing does happen for real quite a lot in these places. You've probably seen it a lot yourself.
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cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
02-14-2013, 03:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
He didn't provide any of those things. Perhaps all of the genuine examples of anti-Semitism I've seen at boards such as this one have made me a little jaded but you have to admit, when people speak of entire groups of people like "The European Jews" as doing "godless" things it comes across as sounding a little racist and makes them appear tactless at the very least. If nothing else it was a very poor choice of words.

From the way you talk one would think I use Wikipedia as my sole source of learning because I cited it once in passing as a quick reference point.
I can understand your point, and I apologize if I offended you. He actually did link a book, and Scimi also posted some videos to get more acquainted with the subject. I said what I did because if you had acquainted yourself you would understand who exactly he was referring to, so this anti semetic stuff would not have come up. I can see that you thought about it and you made sense of it after a while and tha's a good thing Alhamdullilah.

anyway, salaam.

- cOsMiC
Reply

Scimitar
02-14-2013, 07:35 PM
If anyone is anti semitic at the moment, it's the zionist war machine that is killing sons and daughters of Shem, ie: the Palestinians.

Anyway, to move forward:

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
However, I would not completely throw away all the evidence provided by those who believe Khazar Jews to be part of Gog and Magog forces....rather the evidence about Khazar Jews being part of Gog and Magog forces is a lot more and convincing than the Vikings theory especially as the European Jews following godless political Ideology of Zionism are at the forefront in what happening right now in the Middle East.
JazakAllah Khair for replying to me bro Syed_Z, and your English is fine for me to follow, alhamdulillah.

With regard to Khazar jews being a part of the nations of G&M, I just want to post the following again:

format_quote Originally Posted by Shaikh Dr Ridhwan Saleem
Weaknesses in identifying the Khazars as Gog and Magog.


I will not elaborate this point extensively as it will surely be clear to most people who delve into the history of the Khazar people that they do not fit the profile of Gog and Magog given in the revelatory sources except in some random characteristics.


The idea that the barrier of Dhul Qarnayn was situated in the Caucasus region came into Muslim thought through the influence of Jewish and Christian sources. Long before Islam, Jewish and Christian tradition had built a legend around the figure of Alexander the Great and identified him with the Biblical prophet who had been given dominion over the ends of the Earth and had built the great barrier to contain the tribes of Gog and Magog. The great wall of Alexander was thought to lie somewhere in the Caucasus region according to legend.


It is clear that these ideas were introduced into Muslim eschatological theory, as they have no basis in authentic revelation. Many Muslim scholars were not averse to taking ‘knowledge’ from the ‘Isra’eeliyaat’ or Jewish sources, although other scholars warned against this practice. Consequently, we find many books of tafsir identifying Dhul Qarnayn as Alexander the Great. Modern historical knowledge about Alexander, however, refutes the idea that he was a prophet or righteous man who believed in the One God.


Reasons against the Khazar people being Gog and Magog


1. The Quran describes that Gog and Magog were trapped behind the barrier and could not scale it or breach it. When they would be released, they would overrun the Earth. It is clear that the Khazar people were not trapped behind a barrier from all other people, either before the time of the Prophet (upon him be peace) or after. They were a nation of people whose relations with surrounding people are historically documented from prior to the final Prophecy.


2. It seems inaccurate to say that the Khazars stopped the Muslim armies from entry to Europe. There were clearly other routes into Europe from the Islamic Caliphate, including across the Mediterranean; it is well known that Islamic rule was established in Spain for centuries. Therefore, to say that the Khazars prevented Muslim expansion into Europe is to overstate their impact.


3. The Khazar people were from Central Asia, and thus surrounded by other ethnic groups and civilisations with whom they had extensive discourse. There is no suggestion that they were a people who were blocked off from the surrounding peoples of the world by natural or physical barriers.
I have to add here, that there may have been some blood mixing between the Khazar and the tribes of G&M which undoubtedly happens to all races/tribes at some point or another. However, with regard to pure blooded G&M, I am heavily leaning toward the Viking theory.

With historically comparative analysis it is reptty much more of a hypothesis than a theory for me, though. A lot of evidence is pointing towards the north.

Let's not forget that in Surah Al Kahf, two named directions were mentioned, West and East, and then we are told that Dhul Qarnain travelled another direction but we are not told which. We can assume that it was either North or South. However, travelling South he would not have encountered any mountain regions, hence it is logical to assume that he went north - where the mountainous regions are plentiful and a natural barrier of mountains forms along the Nordic steppe, allowing only one main exit into the lands south - where the wall must have been built by Dhul Qarnain.

But before I go on with this, I'd like to see what you have found too. Insha-Allah, between us, we can learn a little more hopefully.

Scimi
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syed_z
02-14-2013, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
2. It seems inaccurate to say that the Khazars stopped the Muslim armies from entry to Europe. There were clearly other routes into Europe from the Islamic Caliphate, including across the Mediterranean; it is well known that Islamic rule was established in Spain for centuries. Therefore, to say that the Khazars prevented Muslim expansion into Europe is to overstate their impact.
Arthur Koestler quotes from 13th Tribe:

Professor Dunlop of Columbia University, a leading authority on the history of the Khazars, has given a concise summary of this decisive yet virtually unknown episode:

The Khazar country… lay across the natural line of advance of the Arabs. Within a few years of the death of Muhammad (AD 632) the armies of the Caliphate, sweeping northward through the wreckage of two empires and carrying all before them, reached the great mountain barrier of the Caucasus. This barrier once passed, the road lay open to the lands of eastern Europe. As it was, on the line of the Caucasus the Arabs met the forces of an organized military power which effectively prevented them from extending their conquests in this direction. The wars of the Arabs and the Khazars, which lasted more than a hundred years, though little known, have thus considerable historical importance. The Franks of Charles Martel on the field of Tours turned the tide of Arab invasion. At about the same time the threat to Europe in the east was hardly less acute.... The victorious Muslims were met and held by the forces of the Khazar kingdom.... It can… scarcely be doubted that but for the existence of the Khazars in the region north of the Caucasus, Byzantium, the bulwark of European civilization in the east, would have found itself outflanked by the Arabs, and the history of Christendom and Islam might well have been very different from what we know.


I highlighted this part to show that just as how Normans stopped the advancing Muslim armies so did the Khazar.... so they both became barriers that stopped the spread of Islam and Muslims in to Europe (West and Eastern). So it is not fair to say that Khazars did not stop the Muslims from entering Europe.

Another thing that I believe is that in the same Book the 13th tribe, when King Joseph (one of the Khazar King) who replied back to Hasdai Shaprut, a Jew (the minister at the court in Cordoba Spain, Ummayad Caliphate), when asked about which tribe (of the 12 tribes of Children of Israel) the Khazar's belonged to ...Joseph replied...

“We have found in the family registers of our fathers,” Joseph asserts boldly, “that Togarma had ten sons, and the names of their offspring are as follows: Uigur, Dursu, Avars, Huns, Basilii, Tarniakh, Khazars, Zagora, Bulgars, Sabir. We are the sons of Khazar, the seventh…”


.....so all of the mentioned sons and their offspring, like Hun and children of Huns, Bulgars and children of Bulgar... all of them occupied the territories between the Black sea and Caspian Sea and almost all of them had war like nature and were known to the world from time immemorial as the Wild Tribes and it was due to this reason the passes such as Dariel and Darband came in to existence, because of their continuous attacks on the land of Iran and Southern part of Asia.

Now the Khazars became the ruler of ALL the children, and their empire was surprisingly came on to the world stage at the same time when Prophet (saw) was propagating Islam in heartland of Arabia and it was during his time of spreading Islam that he (saw) had a dream of a "hole" being created in the wall of Gog and Magog.

They 1st came to be known while being in the hordes of the King of the Hunnish Empire named Atilla the Hun....the Book 13th tribes states....


Priscus’s chronicle confirms that the Khazars appeared on the European scene about the middle of the fifth century as a people under Hunnish sovereignty, and may be regarded, together with the Magyars and other tribes, as a later offspring of Attila’s horde.

...later on they became rulers of all the wild hordes...

The collapse of the Hun Empire after Attila’s death left a power-vacuum in Eastern Europe, through which once more, wave after wave of nomadic hordes swept from east to west, prominent among them the Uigurs and Avars. The Khazars during most of this period seemed to be happily occupied with raiding the rich trans-Caucasian regions of Georgia and Armenia, and collecting precious plunder. During the second half of the sixth century they became the dominant force among the tribes north of the Caucasus. A number of these tribes— the Sabirs, Saragurs, Samandars, Balanjars, etc.—are from this date onward no longer mentioned by name in the sources: they had been subdued or absorbed by the Khazars. The toughest resistance, apparently, was offered by the powerful Bulgars. But they too were crushingly defeated (circa 641), and as a result the nation split into two: some of them migrated westward to the Danube, into the region of modern Bulgaria, others north-eastward to the middle Volga, the latter remaining under Khazar suzerainty.


...so when they became emperors and established their Khazar Kingdom which is during 2nd half of the 6th century, I believe it was that when the Prophet (saw) had a dream while in Arabia....

So I believe we cannot rule out them to be one of the Gog and Magog forces.... rest I will post tomorrow InshA'Allah.... I have to go.
Reply

Scimitar
02-14-2013, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Arthur Koestler quotes from 13th Tribe:

Professor Dunlop of Columbia University, a leading authority on the history of the Khazars, has given a concise summary of this decisive yet virtually unknown episode:

The Khazar country… lay across the natural line of advance of the Arabs. Within a few years of the death of Muhammad (AD 632) the armies of the Caliphate, sweeping northward through the wreckage of two empires and carrying all before them, reached the great mountain barrier of the Caucasus. This barrier once passed, the road lay open to the lands of eastern Europe. As it was, on the line of the Caucasus the Arabs met the forces of an organized military power which effectively prevented them from extending their conquests in this direction. The wars of the Arabs and the Khazars, which lasted more than a hundred years, though little known, have thus considerable historical importance. The Franks of Charles Martel on the field of Tours turned the tide of Arab invasion. At about the same time the threat to Europe in the east was hardly less acute.... The victorious Muslims were met and held by the forces of the Khazar kingdom.... It can… scarcely be doubted that but for the existence of the Khazars in the region north of the Caucasus, Byzantium, the bulwark of European civilization in the east, would have found itself outflanked by the Arabs, and the history of Christendom and Islam might well have been very different from what we know.


I highlighted this part to show that just as how Normans stopped the advancing Muslim armies so did the Khazar.... so they both became barriers that stopped the spread of Islam and Muslims in to Europe (West and Eastern). So it is not fair to say that Khazars did not stop the Muslims from entering Europe.
Yes, I felt this way for quite a while myself. Until I was forced to look again at the hadeeth regarding the "swarming down upon" the believers. This is implying that the G&M will attack the Muslims, not the other way round. So in the example you cited from Koestler, doesn't really prove that the Khazars were the G&M you see?

The Muslims were the ones who went to "conquer" other lands... on the way, they found the Khazar lands, and tried to infiltrate those, and because the Khazars managed to hold the Muslims off for a period of approx. 100 years - seems to justify that the Khazars are the G&M? I find that kinda weak now... I never used to. I just started to think more, and think in perspective.

Moving on -

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Another thing that I believe is that in the same Book the 13th tribe, when King Joseph (one of the Khazar King) who replied back to Hasdai Shaprut, a Jew (the minister at the court in Cordoba Spain, Ummayad Caliphate), when asked about which tribe (of the 12 tribes of Children of Israel) the Khazar's belonged to ...Joseph replied...

“We have found in the family registers of our fathers,” Joseph asserts boldly, “that Togarma had ten sons, and the names of their offspring are as follows: Uigur, Dursu, Avars, Huns, Basilii, Tarniakh, Khazars, Zagora, Bulgars, Sabir. We are the sons of Khazar, the seventh…”
So- if the Khazars belong to the tribe of Jews - how do they belong to the tribe of Gog and Magog also? they can't be both bro.

Remember - the G&M are the sons of Japeth, a son of Noah Alahis salaam.

Whereas the tribe of Jews, are from the sons of the Prophet Israi'l Alaihis salaam.

This is a key determining factor in their genealogy.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
.....so all of the mentioned sons and their offspring, like Hun and children of Huns, Bulgars and children of Bulgar... all of them occupied the territories between the Black sea and Caspian Sea and almost all of them had war like nature and were known to the world from time immemorial as the Wild Tribes and it was due to this reason the passes such as Dariel and Darband came in to existence, because of their continuous attacks on the land of Iran and Southern part of Asia.
Darius, and Cyrus were Persian, so it makes absolutely no sense that Dhul Qarnain (maybe he was Darius, maybe he was Cyrus - Allah knows best) supposedly a Persian King and a Mede King would not know of a people so close to his own territory, and find their language to be unlike any he has ever heard. No. recall surah al Kahf, and the directions Dhul Qarnain followed.

let's imagine he left from Persia, he followed a way east, til he reached the shores of Spain and saw the sun settle in a pool of muddy water (the canary islands were active at that time and would blow plumes of volcanic ash into the sea making it seem like a pool of muddy water)... then he travelled west (passing along and over the caucuses) he travelled to where the sun rose from. Meaning the most easterly point - ie: China

Then he travels another way and here he finds a people at the foot of a mountain range. Logically this implies the North, since their are no ranges to the south of the most easterly corner of the land - China.

North makes the most sense, hence the unexplored, and uncharted part of the world where the tribe of G&M are living, is discovered by Dhul Qarnain, through the communication he had with the people who were being attacked by them. It is here that the barrier is built.

Let's go to the prophecied dream of the Prophet pbuh, and see what happened in the world at the time the prophet pbuh claimed that the barrier had been breached.

circa 650-700AD Norway - Western Europe, something unprecedented and very strange was going on. A new people were emerging on the surface of greater Europe - a people no one had ever seen before. A race of men - taller, stronger and more warlike and uncivilised than anything even the Europeans of the time had ever been able to imagine... yet they were witnessing this with their own eyes:

According to Roesdahl (1998):
“Never before or since have Scandinavians played so great a role abroad…[They] moved early from Limerick in the west to the Volga in the east, from Greenland in the north to Spain in the south. They appeared in many guises: as pirates, traders, extortioners of tribute, mercenaries, conquerors, rulers, warlords, emigrating farmers, explorers and colonisers of uninhabited regions…but what were the causes of this immense wave of outward activity?”

["to swarm down" the language used by Roesdahl is very reflective of the prophecy regarding the Swarming, or the Descending]

Historians have been unable to answer this puzzling question. Why did the Vikings pour out from their homeland at this particular juncture in history? Population pressure and the development of their famous longboats are two explanations that have been suggested, but neither is supported by historical evidence [Farrell, 1982]. According to historian, Kendrick, the Viking expansion was a huge outpouring of Northern peoples on such a scale that a “special explanation” is called for. [Farrell, 1982: p.1] In fact, Farrell, in his book ‘The Vikings’, goes so far as to say: “we can never hope to understand that activity or its causes fully”.

Unless of course we knew that, prior to this outpouring, a new people had been released from beyond the Northern mountains of the Scandinavian peninsula, who had previously been cut off from the rest of the population by impassable barriers. Once these new people, characterised by warlike, brutal activity, had established themselves on the peninsula itself, they looked to further lands for domination. From the other inhabitants of the peninsula upon whom they descended with aggressive force, they discovered the technology to build the ships for which they would become famous. Within a few generations, these unruly people were ready to embark on their voyages of plunder and conquest across the icy seas. They spread in all directions. Their motivation was, above all, greed and a lust for wealth.
Following the first attacks against England, the learned Alcuin of York wrote letters to King Ethelred of Northumbria:


“Lo, it is nearly 350 years that we and our fathers have inhabited this most lovely land, and never has such terror appeared in Britain as we have now suffered from a pagan race…”

By 795 AD, the Vikings had moved around Scotland, via the Isle of Iona, and reached Ireland. Iceland was settled in 870, Greenland in 985, and they had reached the shores of America by 1000. The East coast of the Baltic was settled even before the westward movements: by the 9th century, several parts of Russia and the South coast of the Baltic were settled by Viking invaders. Viking colonisers established the first Russian dynasty in Novgorod and Kiev, which became known as the Rus Empire. In 809, in mainland Europe, Charlemagne was planning an expedition against the Viking chief, Godfred. In 826, a pirate fleet of 13 ships was repulsed trying to attack Flanders. However, they raided the South of France and “seized great booty”. In 844, they were even making inroads into Spain. Seville was initially captured, but the Muslim imperial army soon put them to flight.

There's loads more I can add, but I think this suffices in order to make the point that the Nordic tribes were definitely lot better candidates than the Khazars as Gog magoggies.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Priscus’s chronicle confirms that the Khazars appeared on the European scene about the middle of the fifth century as a people under Hunnish sovereignty, and may be regarded, together with the Magyars and other tribes, as a later offspring of Attila’s horde.
...
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
...so when they became emperors and established their Khazar Kingdom which is during 2nd half of the 6th century, I believe it was that when the Prophet (saw) had a dream while in Arabia....

So I believe we cannot rule out them to be one of the Gog and Magog forces.... rest I will post tomorrow InshA'Allah.... I have to go.
If the Khazars were already known and spreading in the middle of the 5th century, then they would have escaped 100 years (atleast) before the dream prophecy of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, where he awoke sweating saying "woe to the Arabs woe to the Arabs" - the dream telling of the barrier being breached on that very day. So by this historical standard, i rule out the Khazars here too.

Wassalaam bro, we'll discuss again soon insha-Allah.

Scimi
Reply

Karl
02-14-2013, 10:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Salaam Brother Scimitar and Yahya .... I believe its the Dariyal Pass...

What I see is that by you believing Nordic pass as the Wall of Gog and Magog, your completely overlooking the fact of Khazar Jews, the "13th Tribe" a book by Arthur Koestler , who are European Jews and are claiming the Holy Land to be their own (without them having any kind of share in the descent from Ibrahim (a.s)) and it is the Euro Jewish Elite from the Euro Jews who are the main backers of Zionism and are causing Havoc in the Middle East and Africa which I believe made Prophet (saw) wake up in the middle of the night with a shriek saying wailun lil 'arab..

....so I believe that Khazar Jews are a tribe that one should study and understand well before going in to the subject of Gog and Magog .....

Now yes there are other wild tribes of North Europe and Central Asia like Scythians and in the past like Mongols against whom even Chinese Kingdom had built Wall of China to protect against....but in the LAST Age i.e. our age.... it is the Euro Khazar Zionist Jews causing destruction.... And Allah (swt) knows best....

A Map of Khazaria Kingdom from 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler







Also important thing to mention is the Euro Zionist Jewish Families like Rothschild, originated from Khazar land. They choose who should rule in USA, U.K etc.
Looks like you figuired out the Anti Christ. They have legions of sychophants (Godless Facsists, Marxists and brainwashed Christians and other faiths and many Muslims bend their knee to them for money.
Reply

IAmZamzam
02-15-2013, 02:08 AM
This is getting less pleasant by the page. Didn't we start off talking about worms or something?
Reply

Jedi_Mindset
02-15-2013, 04:14 PM
Khazars were a turkish tribe,

(3) Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would not come until the Muslims fight with the turks - a people whose faces would be like hammered shields wearing clothes of hair and walking (with shoes) of hair. (Book #041, Hadith #6959) (Sahih muslim)

The khazars were defeated though, look at the areas of their previous empire, most there are muslims.
kind of astonished that it wasnt mentioned here. khazars are other side of the puzzle though, not related to G&M. Most people who have khazar blood today are indeed zionist jews. zionists are part of the judeo-christian alliance, which will follow dajjal. Hence they are a other side of the puzzle.
Reply

syed_z
02-15-2013, 07:46 PM
Asalaam O Alaikum....

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Yes, I felt this way for quite a while myself. Until I was forced to look again at the hadeeth regarding the "swarming down upon" the believers. This is implying that the G&M will attack the Muslims, not the other way round. So in the example you cited from Koestler, doesn't really prove that the Khazars were the G&M you see?

The Muslims were the ones who went to "conquer" other lands... on the way, they found the Khazar lands, and tried to infiltrate those, and because the Khazars managed to hold the Muslims off for a period of approx. 100 years - seems to justify that the Khazars are the G&M? I find that kinda weak now... I never used to. I just started to think more, and think in perspective.
Actually your referring to this hadith....

"and then Allah will send Gog and Magog and they will swarm down from every slope. The first of them will pass by Lake Tiberias (i.e. the Sea of Galilee) and drink out of it, and when the last of them passes, he will say: ‘There was once water here . . . .’” (Sahih Muslim)


This actually does not imply Gog and Magog will attack 1st because then we would also have to believe that the implication of the 1st of them passing Lake Tiberias (Sea of Galilee) also happened which actually did not happen then, but the water level has not gone down to serious diminishing level till our times....

----------------------------------------

Can Israel deal with its drought?
by dina kraft, jta

"As Israel's population swells, increasing water demands have exacerbated the effects of below-average rainfall rates. The country's three main reservoirs, including the Kinneret (sea of galilee), have dropped below their emergency lines."

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/...h-its-drought/

-----------------------------------------

So if you are not interpreting the above tradition literally then we would have to interpret as "First of them.." meaning the first generation of the past and the "...last of them.." meaning later generations or the generation of Eastern European Zionist Jews occupying Holy Land backed by Christian Zionists right now...... then we would also have to conclude that their "...swarming down from every mound." will take place gradually throughout the history.....

....rather I see the meaning of the above tradition how Sheikh Imran explained that this would take place through history i.e. the 1st Generation of Gog and Magog will not be powerful enough to take over the entire world immediately YET powerful enough to defeat or defend fiercely against any super power of that time like Byzantium or Sassanid empire including the Great Islamic Caliphate.

Now If you have done some research on Arab-Khazar Wars you would realize that even Khazars attacked the Muslim armies and it was NOT only Muslims attacking them, even though its true that Muslims were the 1st ones to attack.

So right from the time ....“a hole was made in the barrier built by Dhūl Qarnain” ..when they are released to them becoming a regional super power in Eastern Europe (Khazar Kingdom) till the time when they gradually make their way in to Western Europe by assimilating in the populations (because of their blue or greyish eye color and white skin), gaining ascendancy in those nations, then reach the climax of their power as decreed by Allah (swt) in our times we can then see them "Swarming from every Mound." i.e. Coming from all Heights you can imagine....with Military Might (backed by unmatchable technology), Economic Oppression (IMF, World Bank), Corrupting Religious way of life (replacing Judaism with Zionism, Christianity with Secularism and distorting Islam).....or as Allah (swt) says in Quran....

“And on that Day We shall leave them to surge like waves against one another; and the trumpet will be blown, and We shall gather them all together.” (18:99)

Sheikh Imran comments in his commentary of Surah Kahf....

And on that Day We shall (begin a process which would call forth all mankind in what would become one global society, i.e., globalization and) leave them to surge like waves (that dash) against one another (since even though they will be one global society there will be more conflicts, wars, killing, genocide, ethnic cleansing, barbarism, racial polarization, war on Islam and on religion, etc. than ever before);


Theres this one link I found which shows how many Ashkenazi Jews (eastern european jews descending from Khazars) have inflitrated the upper levels of USA Government since USA became super power....foreign policy or local policy, all major decisions are influenced by Ashkenazi figures!

http://thezog.wordpress.com/

Names like Elena Kagan (Khazarian name) Elena Kagan (Ashkenazi Jew)—solicitor general of the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elena_kagan
Peter Orszag (Ashkenazi Jew)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Orszag


Another very important point that I would like to make here is that...the tradition of Prophet (saw) which says....

"....Allah will reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from among My servants such people against whom none will be able to fight.."
(Sahih Muslim)

If we believe that Pagan Vikings (Later Christianized by Pope and became Franks) have Gog and Magog people within them, then we would also have to believe that Muslim armies could have NEVER defeated them because Allah (swt) said "My servants whom none will be able to fight."..... but they did suffer defeat many times in Middle East at hands of Salahuddin (r.a) and Nuruddin (r.a) and the Mamluks who finally expelled them from Muslim lands.

Btw I personally after reading "How Islamophobia came to the British Isles." strongly believe that If Khazars became Jews then Vikings became Christian, and Vikings did have Gog and Magog within them. But the only thing that I am concerned about is the Wall of Vikings.... can you show some more pictures and information about their Wall ?

Have you read "Islamic View of Gog and Magog by Shaikh Imran" .... he explains thoroughly about the Daryal Pass ?

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Quote Originally Posted by syed_z View Post
Another thing that I believe is that in the same Book the 13th tribe, when King Joseph (one of the Khazar King) who replied back to Hasdai Shaprut, a Jew (the minister at the court in Cordoba Spain, Ummayad Caliphate), when asked about which tribe (of the 12 tribes of Children of Israel) the Khazar's belonged to ...Joseph replied...

“We have found in the family registers of our fathers,” Joseph asserts boldly, “that Togarma had ten sons, and the names of their offspring are as follows: Uigur, Dursu, Avars, Huns, Basilii, Tarniakh, Khazars, Zagora, Bulgars, Sabir. We are the sons of Khazar, the seventh…”
So- if the Khazars belong to the tribe of Jews - how do they belong to the tribe of Gog and Magog also? they can't be both bro.

Remember - the G&M are the sons of Japeth, a son of Noah Alahis salaam.

Whereas the tribe of Jews, are from the sons of the Prophet Israi'l Alaihis salaam.

This is a key determining factor in their genealogy.

I am sorry you misunderstood me, i had quoted the above part of conversation between King of Khazars and Hasdai to show you that even the King of Khazar believed to be a descendant of Togarma from Japheth, one of sons of Noah (a.s), from whom have descended Gog and Magog as many historical references tell us, and coincidentally it is the same region they come from which is known to be a breeding ground of the Wild Tribes......so there is a very high probability that Khazars had Gog and Magog in them! Further it is confirmed in our age because of these same people forming Zionism and its obsession to take over the Holy Land and create Greater Israel.


format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
If the Khazars were already known and spreading in the middle of the 5th century, then they would have escaped 100 years (atleast) before the dream prophecy of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, where he awoke sweating saying "woe to the Arabs woe to the Arabs" - the dream telling of the barrier being breached on that very day. So by this historical standard, i rule out the Khazars here too.
The Khazars were a tribe from among many wild tribes under the Hunnish Empire being ruled by Attila the Hun for a very short time. However they became superior and excelled all others and were THE ONLY tribe from among many tribes to rule over all the rest for 3 centuries I believe.

So the Khazars did exist before but became a Kingdom in the Middle of 7th century ce. So the hole in the Wall seen by Prophet Muhammad (saw) could have a symbolic meaning. Allah (swt) knows best.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Darius, and Cyrus were Persian, so it makes absolutely no sense that Dhul Qarnain (maybe he was Darius, maybe he was Cyrus - Allah knows best) supposedly a Persian King and a Mede King would not know of a people so close to his own territory, and find their language to be unlike any he has ever heard.
It makes perfectly sense that the language of the wild tribes of Eastern Europe that linked Persia through Caucuses was a completely different language, because in the 13th tribe one of the Arab Traveler named Ibn Fadlan was sent by Abbasid Caliph of Baghdad at the request of a Bulgar King who wanted the Caliph to build a fotress from Khazar King to whom he was subjected to and had to pay tribute .... read his account....


"The progress of the mission was slow and apparently uneventful until they reached Khwarizm, the border province of the Caliphate south of the Sea of Aral. Here the governor in charge of the province tried to stop them from proceeding further by arguing that between his country and the kingdom of the Bulgars there were “a thousand tribes of disbelievers” who were sure to kill them. The mission was allowed to proceed to Gurganj on the estuary of the Amu-Darya. Here they hibernated for three months, because of the intense coldIbn Fadlan, the fastidious Arab, liked neither the climate nor the people of Khwarizm:

They are, in respect of their language and constitution, the most repulsive of men. Their language is like the chatter of starlings. At a day’s journey there is a village called Ardkwa whose inhabitants are called Kardals; their language sounds entirely like the croaking of frogs. "

...If you read the account of Ibn Fadlan quoted by Arther, Ibn Fadlan gives explanation of characteristics not of the Khazars but of the several Turkish tribes including Bulgars that were living under the authority of Khazars who were the most powerful of all of them. But he continuosly observes all these tribes who inhabited the region around Khazaria to be very scared of Khazars, even though they themselves were of wild nature.

He even quotes Ibn Fadlan calling the Khazars Gog and Magog.

Ibn Fadlan’s travel report, as far as it is preserved, ends with the words:

The Khazars and their King are all Jews.* The Bulgars and all their neighbours are subject to him. They treat him with worshipful obedience. Some are of the opinion that Gog and Magog are the Khazars.

InshA'Allah tomorrow I will post some more important information explaining a Verse of Surah Kahf and Dhul Qarnayn (a.s).
Reply

syed_z
02-15-2013, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Looks like you figuired out the Anti Christ. They have legions of sychophants (Godless Facsists, Marxists and brainwashed Christians and other faiths and many Muslims bend their knee to them for money.
Salaam ... the AntiChrist is an Individual and not a race....
Reply

syed_z
02-15-2013, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Most people who have khazar blood today are indeed zionist jews. zionists are part of the judeo-christian alliance, which will follow dajjal. Hence they are a other side of the puzzle.
Zionist Jews are drinking up sea of galilee they are very much part of Gog and Magog as prophesied by Prophet Muhammad (saw).
Reply

syed_z
02-16-2013, 01:29 PM
Asalaam O Alaikum....

Another Important point to share with Brother Scimitar and others....

Sheikh Imran quotes in Islamic View of Gog and Magog

“(And he marched on) till, when he reached (a pass) between the two mountain-barriers, he found before them a people who could scarcely understand anything spoken (i.e. any utterance in his language). (18:93)

"Sure enough, the Georgian language which is spoken south of the Caucasus Mountains is precisely such a language. It is an insular pre-Indo-European language with no relatives that has been spoken for at least 5000 years."


So the Sheikh suggests that It is people in the land of Georgia in the South of Caucuses Mountains who requested Dhul Qarnayn to build this wall of Dariyal Gorge.





If we agree with the Sheikh then 13th tribe also quotes the same thing that as soon as Khazar came in to power they made raids in to Georgia and Aremenia and even they reached till Mosul in Iraq...in other words they "Broke through the walls" the georgians had requested Dhul Qarnayn....

---------------------------------

At the peak of their power they controlled or exacted tribute from some thirty different nations and tribes inhabiting the vast territories between the Caucasus, the Aral Sea, the Ural Mountains, the town of Kiev and the Ukrainian steppes. The people under Khazar suzerainty included the Bulgars, Burtas, Ghuzz, Magyars (Hungarians), the Gothic and Greek colonies of the Crimea, and the Slavonic tribes in the north-western woodlands. Beyond these extended dominions, Khazar armies also raided Georgia and Armenia and penetrated into the Arab Caliphate as far as Mosul. In the words of the Soviet archaeologist M. I. Artamonov:

Until the ninth century, the Khazars had no rivals to their supremacy in the regions north of the Black Sea and the adjoining steppe and forest regions of the Dnieper. The Khazars were the supreme masters of the southern half of Eastern Europe for a century and a hall, and presented a mighty bulwark, blocking the Ural- Caspian gateway from Asia into Europe. During this whole period, they held back the onslaught of the nomadic tribes from the East. Taking a bird’s-eye view of the history of the great nomadic empires of the East, the Khazar kingdom occupies an intermediary position in time, size, and degree of civilization between the Hun and Avar Empires which preceded, and the Mongol Empire that succeeded it.

------------------------------------

.....So what the Sheikh is saying makes sense as well as its in line with what 13th tribe is mentioning.


Another thing that I would like to show is the words of Prophet (saw) when He (saw) saw a dream of a hole in the wall of Gog and Magog.... if we believe it to be the Dariyal Pass..... then we could find the meaning of the hadith in the following words of 13th tribe....


They were living under Attila the Hunnish King till middle of 5th century (i.e. till 450 CE)

Arthur Quotes "Priscus’s chronicle confirms that the Khazars appeared on the European scene about the middle of the fifth century as a people under Hunnish sovereignty, and may be regarded, together with the Magyars and other tribes, as a later offspring of Attila’s horde."

During second half of 6th century (i.e. till 550 CE) they became gained ascendancy among all the others and then later became the ONLY among all the wild tribes to rule for 4 centuries and then Also convert to Judaism and become civilized just as how Vikings wanted to become civilized by adopting Christianity....

Arthur Quotes "During the second half of the sixth century they became the dominant force among the tribes north of the Caucasus. A number of these tribes— the Sabirs, Saragurs, Samandars, Balanjars, etc.—are from this date onward no longer mentioned by name in the sources: they had been subdued or absorbed by the Khazars. The toughest resistance, apparently, was offered by the powerful Bulgars. But they too were crushingly defeated (circa 641), and as a result the nation split into two: some of them migrated westward to the Danube, into the region of modern Bulgaria, others north-eastward to the middle Volga, the latter remaining under Khazar suzerainty."


....so what I am trying to explain here is that in the early 7th century CE Prophet Muhammad (Saw) when had a dream about the hole, he had the dream and probably saw these tribes breaking Dariyal Gorge ..... but they did not become strong and started attacking till the wall was completely skaled untill the Khazar became the super power amongst them all and then Khazars attacked Gerogia, Armenia and even came down till Mosul and also resisted the Early Caliphate armies of Umar (r.a).

Please when reading all that I have posted keep watching the map I have posted above to understand what I am trying to say....please do ask me any questions I am trying to make this clear as much as I can.... follow the time line of their ascendancy that I have mentioned above.... it corresponds with the dream of Prophet (saw) when he saw the wall being broken.
Reply

Al-Mufarridun
02-16-2013, 02:27 PM
:sl:

A quick question, what prevented the Khazars from travelling across either the Caspian sea or the black sea, surely with such a large empire as is depicted on the map, they could at least master a way through these calm seas at this age. Couldn't they also come through the east on land across the Caspian sea? Also why would they be so interested in georgia/armenia/azerbaijan to the extent that they would continuously try and dig there way through for thousand(s) of years?

It just seems to me that being locked behind the caucus mountains isn't really such a difficult spot.
Reply

Scimitar
02-16-2013, 03:00 PM
Exactly my point bro Al-Mufarridun - It really wasn't... there are 4 very well known passes through the caucuses.

And the land mass beyond the caucuses is such that you can travel "around" the mountainous regions and slip by the ends. Trade routes were established here with guard posts from the neighbouring nations.


EDIT: bro Syed_Z,

with regard to the language of the Georgians - it may have sounded alien to Arabs, but they were most definitely communicating with Mongols and the Chinese, as this is in the historical record also.

But when we compare the language of the Georgians and the Vikings, what we find is that often - even the Vikings couldn't understand each other - their language was crass and overly complicated, as explained in a previous post. Infact, it seemed totally alien to even the Europeans and to those of the Eurasian lands.

Ofcourse, with regard to language, one could mention the African tribes who speak by clicking their tongue. And the language is still spoken today - however, wrong location all together.

The determining factor is realised when we ascertain which of the languages is the most likely to have been that of the G&M.

Also, with regard to the appearance of the Khazars - they appeared a century to early (circa 550ad). Whereas the Vikings, were bang on the nail - during the lifetime of the prophet pbuh.
Reply

Al-Mufarridun
02-16-2013, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Exactly my point bro Al-Mufarridun - It really wasn't... there are 4 very well known passes through the caucuses.

And the land mass beyond the caucuses is such that you can travel "around" the mountainous regions and slip by the ends. Trade routes were established here with guard posts from the neighbouring nations.
Another question that I have had on my mind is When Dhul-Qarnayn(as) went on his third expedition, did he return back to his original starting point, or did he go north, if he did indeed went north, straight from where he was at the end of his second expedition? I guess if we know that we could probably come to an understanding of where the wall might be.

If you can find Al-Idiris's map, you can see that he believed Dhul-Qarnain(as) went straight north when he reached the eastern point, thus believing that the Yajuj and Majuj are somewhere north of China, perhaps Siberia.

If he did return to his starting point, which we can guess would be somewhere in the near east, and then went up North, then the theory that they might be, have been, locked in the mountains of the scandinavia has some valid points. This is interested for even in Al-Idiris's map you can see what is probably the kjolen mountains and scandinavia.

At the end of the day it is all speculations at the moment.

Allah swt knows best
Reply

IAmZamzam
02-16-2013, 03:25 PM
Al-Mufarridun, the fewer possible openings there are the easier it is on your military. You don't need to have all of your soliders in just one place, standing in front of a single gate. A bottleneck doesn't have to be absolute, especially for an emperor of Darius I's capabilities. This is another reason why it would make all the more sense that Dhu-l-Qarnain would be going up against small barbarian tribes like the Gelae, as mentioned in the Encyclopedia Britannica article on the region of the Caspian Gate.
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Scimitar
02-16-2013, 03:31 PM
Bro Al-Mufarridun - Indeed this is the same train of thought I followed.

Caucuses seems too much like the scapegoat location of convenience and the Mongol invasion kinda settled it for the Arabs - which I think was a little bit stupid.

deceptive coincidence that doesn't even align with the historical record, and is out by a period of 100 years to boot.

And yes, Allah knows best.

bro Yahya, - the Khazars were a century too early to place gthem as the yajuj wa majuj bro. Circa 550AD.

Dream was nearing the end of the Prophet pbuh life. So... that would take the year to where? ;) this is how you should determine it for a start. The process of elimination.

Also, with regard to Derbent and the others around the caucuses: They are not made of Iron and Copper, but brick and mortar, so these walls like derbent and others in the caucuses, cannot be the barrier/wall of Dhul Qarnains effort.
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Jedi_Mindset
02-16-2013, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Zionist Jews are drinking up sea of galilee they are very much part of Gog and Magog as prophesied by Prophet Muhammad (saw).
Zionist jews are part of the followers of dajjal, the khazars were just the turks i mentioned, and the turks got defeated by the muslims. khazars can be G&M if you look at them via a political perspective. But regarding timeline, superior strenght and that the would be undefeatable is not true.

Israel has been defeated in the past by hizbullah in 2006. US is defeated in iraq, and is now on the run out of afghanistan. The russians have lost from the chechens. So they arent G&M. There are a few groups who destroyed everything they saw and killed everyone they saw. The vikings are on of such groups, and no one had been able to defeat them. And the mongols, no one could defeat them either.

However G&M could easily be behind the crusades, especially the western one.
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Scimitar
02-16-2013, 04:39 PM
They were, by the time Rome left Europe and retracted to its home territiories, The British Isles were already quite populated by Normans and hence, the knights amongst them - who wwere previously pagans had accepted Christianity and led the crusades south.

let's not forget that from the historical record, we are told that the Vikings would ally with the Church and seek the Church's blessings in endeavours pertaining to conquering foreign lands in the name of Christianity, but the interesting thing is - thy did not mind being "ex-comminicated" by the Church...

...This means that they used the Church to further their own ends.

It's all in my previous posts in this thread.

Also, in the Quran: 18:90, "To the extent that when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising upon a nation for which We had not kept any shelter from it."

The Nordic regions and beyond, do not receive shelter from the sun (from night) and the days are particulary long, and some regions are in perpetual daylight for 6 months of the year.

Apply this to the Khazar regions (meschech and tubal) and you see it cannot be them. for they also are subjected to the same climes as the surrounding regions.
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IAmZamzam
02-16-2013, 05:06 PM
Scimitar, I'm not the one saying it was Khazars, remember? I said it was small tribes in the region, whose (Scythian?) descendants represent the Gog and Magog of today. Qur'an 18:96 doesn't specify where the metals went, but it is mentioned in the context of filling up the gap.
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Scimitar
02-16-2013, 05:12 PM
I apologise bro Yahya, I should have been clearer. I was generalising to anyone here who believes that it was the khazar tribe, so they can follow my train of thought/study also.

So many Muslims have sponsored Imran Hosein's theories. And not conducted the research themselves in depth. Instead, I have found that most will only seek to find opinions of scholars, and then post these as evidence - totally ignoring the historical record - which helps to put things into perspective.

Scimi

EDIT:

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Qur'an 18:96 doesn't specify where the metals went, but it is mentioned in the context of filling up the gap.
yes, and I often thought about this. For example - were the iron and copper used as foundation for a wall?

Or, was it used to make an impenetrable wall that will not fall, nor can it be scaled - until Allah decides it must fall?

I go with the latter. Simply because if the iron and copper were used for the foundation, then the wall would have to be made of bricks and mortar - which the G&M would most definitely be able to break down, and scale should they have so wished.

If the gap that needed filling was between a narrow mountain pass, then it would not need a foundation. From what we know, they (the G&M) were situated beyond a mountain range - and this will imply that the gap was a narrow sliver of a pass that needed filling.
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syed_z
02-16-2013, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
A quick question, what prevented the Khazars from travelling across either the Caspian sea or the black sea, surely with such a large empire as is depicted on the map, they could at least master a way through these calm seas at this age. Couldn't they also come through the east on land across the Caspian sea? Also why would they be so interested in georgia/armenia/azerbaijan to the extent that they would continuously try and dig there way through for thousand(s) of years?
Asalaam O Alaikum....to answer the second part of your question first...

From what I remember from one of the lectures of Sheikh Imran Hosein that he said.... all the territories in the Middle East, South Asia, North Africa.... were all great civilizations... but Europe specifically Eastern Europe and Nordic Northern Part of Europe were all Wild Tribes..... they never had any civilization like the Chinese Civilization (even they had built Wall of China as a protection against Wild Tribes of Central Asia), The Persian Civilization was a civlization, a famous one, the Byzantium civilization or the Ancient Babylonian Civilization ..... or the Egyptian Civilization etc..... these were all civilizations who had .....their own arts and crafts, farming, houses, culture, and a civilized way of life.....

....but when you go and study Eastern and Northern Europe History, as Sheikh Imran once said "You find nothing but sticks and stones..."

All the tribes Ghuzz, Magyars, Bulgars, Huns, Goths.... these were all NOMADIC WARRIORS who did not settle at one place, they were either fighting each other or attacking civilizations and capturing their loot..... Arthur himself quotes this....

"The collapse of the Hun Empire after Attila’s death left a power-vacuum in Eastern Europe, through which once more, wave after wave of nomadic hordes swept from east to west, prominent among them the Uigurs and Avars. The Khazars during most of this period seemed to be happily occupied with raiding the rich trans-Caucasian regions of Georgia and Armenia, and collecting precious plunder.".....this was when Khazars had not become super power of region they were in the transition phase of doing so..Also the Hunnish empire under Attila the Hun is also named as the "Kingdom of Tents" by Arthur because all of these tribes were nomadic warrior type who wandered and attacked and all they focused on was tents....

Another interesting thing mentioned by Arthur is about the Ghuzz, another tribe like Khazars (you can also see the map above and read the name) who were subjected to them and paid tribute, Ibn Fadlan had to say this about them....

"They are nomads and have houses of felt. They stay for a while in one place and then move on. One can see their tents dispersed here and there all over the place according to nomadic custom. Although they lead a hard life, they behave like donkeys that have lost their way. They have no religion which would link them to God, nor are they guided by reason; they do not worship anything. Instead, they call their headmen lords; when one of them consults his chieftain, he asks: “O lord, what shall I do in this or that matter?” The course of action they adopt is decided by taking counsel among themselves; but when they have decided on a measure and are ready to carry it through, even the humblest and lowliest among them can come and disrupt that decision."

Among the Volga Bulgars, Ibn Fadlan found a strange custom:

When they observe a man who excels through quickwittedness and knowledge, they say: “for this one it is more befitting to serve our Lord.” They seize him, put a rope round his neck and hang him on a tree where he is left until he rots away.


...read the book 13th tribe and also Sheikh Imran's books, then you'll have understanding InshA'Allah...

------------------------------

Now to answer the 1st part of your question that why they never came across from the Eastern Side of Caspian toward Middle East or South Asia or Western side of Black Sea to go to Middle East.... I don't know how to answer.....

But All i can tell you is that the Khazars or similar tribes like them were not Powerful enough to take on the Entire World their Wild Nature does not necessarily mean that they can conquer the whole world and the only thing stopping them is a Wall. The reason their Wild nature is mentioned is to show that they are agents of Fasad .... who will gain power gradually and before the End of the world will rule the world and not immediately after the wall is broken.
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syed_z
02-16-2013, 07:57 PM
Brothers ....

What Brother Scimitar and Al Mafariduin and Jedi and others are not trying to understand is that the Message that Allah (swt) is giving us by mentioning Dhul Qarnayn (a.s) story in the Quran is NOT to tell us that the entire world was being protected by a Wall in the Caucasian Mountain Range 13 centuries ago......and the immediately after break up of the Wall will create disorder in the entire world

....What this story is informing and it is mentioned for us to understand that the Wall would be broken and the sign of the breaking of this Wall will usher the age of the release of Gog and Magog .... It is not mentioned for us Muslims to find after the break up of Dariyal Gorge as to which Nation took over the entire world ? ..Which we obviously find none.....but in case even if we do find How do we really know they are Gog and Magog till we enter the 21st century ?

...and had it not been for our time, Muslims would not have understood this subject completely....the Muslims in the past found this Wall of Dariyal Gorge to be the Wall of Dhul Qarnayn that was the only step they had done on their part .... in our age we can understand this subject further by finding a nation who is causing Fasad in the modern world ....

Unfortunately it is the Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews who support Zionism..... who are the Eastern European Jews? and where did they come from as Eastern Europeans did not descend from Shem one of the sons of Noah (a.s) so how did they become jews? Why are they claiming the Holy Land ?

Why the Elite among the Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews with European Zionist Christians are trying to establish Zionist state in the Middle East and greater israel ?

the answer to all the questions link with Khazar Kingdom accepting Judaism at one point of time in history, the only Non Semetic tribe to accept Judaism, with absolutely no plan to conquer Palestine until their descendants enter the modern age and then work strenuously towards it to achieve it backed by European Christian Zionists the best candidate for them would be Pre Christian Vikings who after Christianizing initiated Crusades....
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IAmZamzam
02-16-2013, 08:16 PM
It seems to me that there isn't a single historical fact here that needs saying which I haven't already said.
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syed_z
02-16-2013, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
he khazars were just the turks i mentioned, and the turks got defeated by the muslims. khazars can be G&M if you look at them via a political perspective. But regarding timeline, superior strenght and that the would be undefeatable is not true.
Arthur Quotes this...

“As to the Khazars,” an Arab chronicler writes, “they are to the north of the inhabited earth towards the 7th clime, having over their heads the constellation of the Plough. Their land is cold and wet. Accordingly their complexions are white, their eyes blue, their hair flowing and predominantly reddish, their bodies large and their natures cold. Their general aspect is wild.”

Lastly, the Arab geographer Istakhri, one of the main Arab sources, has this to say: “The Khazars do not resemble the Turks. They are blackhaired,
and are of two kinds, one called the Kara-Khazars, [Black Khazars] who are swarthy verging on deep black as if they were a kind of Indian, and a white kind [Ak-Khazars], who are strikingly handsome.”

From the fifth century onward, many of these westward-bound tribes were called by the generic name of “Turks”. The term is also supposed to be of Chinese origin (apparently derived from the name of a hill) and was subsequently used to refer to all tribes who spoke languages with certain common characteristics— the “Turkic” language group. Thus the term Turk, in the sense in which it was used by mediaeval writers— and often also by modern ethnologists— refers primarily to language and not to race. In this sense the Huns and Khazars were “Turkic” people.


---------------------------------


The above quotes are mentioned to show that there were White Skinned Blue Eyed Eastern European Khazars whose later descendants were found in large numbers in Poland, Russia, Hungary etc.... they assimilated themselves within White European people there and you can just look at the pictures of Top leaders in USA govt and Israeli Govt (follow the link i posted earlier)... they are descendants of those same European Asheknazi Jews.


format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Israel has been defeated in the past by hizbullah in 2006. US is defeated in iraq, and is now on the run out of afghanistan. The russians have lost from the chechens.

Brother Jedi your missing the whole point of this Subject of Gog and Magog.... the words of Hadith ...

"....Allah will reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from among My servants such people against whom none will be able to fight.." (Sahih Muslim)

This does NOT mean that Muslims will not be able to fight Gog and Magog, what this means is that Muslims will NOT be able to completely defeat them, conquer them and make them subject to their rule.....like How Muslims fought and defeated and conquered Persian Empire, Byzantium Empire, Hindu Civilization etc

But they could not defeat Khazars and subject them.... and even the Normans and Franks (Pre Christian Vikings) their hordes were defeated several times by Salahuddin and Nuruddin but never were they able to subject them to their own authority.....they fled but only to return in the face of British Empire....

Hezbollah defeating Israel and Russia getting defeated in Afghanistan is similar to Umar (r.a) army fighting Khazars but not completely taking them over.

Hope you understand...
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syed_z
02-16-2013, 08:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
It seems to me that there isn't a single historical fact here that needs saying which I haven't already said.
I am sorry not trying to ignore you but can you please be more specific what do you mean ?
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IAmZamzam
02-17-2013, 01:39 AM
As a matter of fact…it turns out there is one more fact left.

Ladies and gentlemen…jackpot.

I’ve just stumbled upon a place where I found the names “Darius”, “Alexander [the Great]”, and the Tapuri tribe (which lived around the Caspian Gate, if you’ll remember), all in the same place (along with the word “Scythian”, although I don’t know if that last part means anything). Furthermore it’s in the same context as the mention of an almost impassable way—and the Caspian Gate.

This is from page 245 of "Annals of the World" by James Ussher, which I found through Google Books. I don't know if I'm allowed to link directly to copyrighted material so I'll just quote it here:

[According to Plutarch] from there Alexander moved two and a half miles through an almost impassable way. When he had gone almost another four miles, Phrataphernes, the governer of Hyrcania and Parthia, met him and surrendered to Alexander, along with all those who had fled to him after the death of Darius. Alexander graciously received them all. He next came to a town called Arvae, where Craterus rejoined him, having subdued all the countries which he had passed through. With him he brought Phradates, or Autophradates, the governor of the tribe of the Tapuri, whom Alexander restored to his government again and sent back home…Clitarchus said that Thalestris came to Alexander from the Caspian Gates and the Thermodon River….

Even though that's a different Darius being spoken of up there I still think it's fairly obvious that if the above passage doesn’t tie every single detail of the case together in a way that even Agatha Christie would blush at (for anyone who’s been paying attention, at least), nothing ever could. This not only explains (along with the weird confusion ancient people made between Alexander the Great and the two-horned ram from Daniel) how the whole Alexander/Dhul-Qarnain thing started, it also removes the last shred of doubt as to who the true Dhul-Qarnain was, where he went, and who he fought. Darius I was mixed up not only with Cyrus but also with Alexander. The Persians simply didn't know one of their kings from another, it seems. It's obvious that there was a reason they had to be mixed up, and that the Caspian Gate and the Tapuri had to come into the picture as well.

Gog and Magog was The Tapuri. Their descendants are apparently some kind of Scythian line somewhere. I'll grant that it's conceivable that some second enemy was also involved which I haven't found in this research and there was indeed a literal second tribe.
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Karl
02-17-2013, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Salaam ... the AntiChrist is an Individual and not a race....
I mean Anti Christ as a force of evil by people. As Jesus (PUBH) was a man and not the son of God so therefore not Christ so there cannot be an Anti Christ ie a human son of Satan.
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syed_z
02-19-2013, 01:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Gog and Magog was The Tapuri. Their descendants are apparently some kind of Scythian line somewhere.

Asalaam O Alaikum Yahya...

See what I believe we're trying to do here by discussing the subject is not to find Who Gog and Magog are within historical perspective only. But what we're trying to find is if we're living in the age of Gog and Magog presently then who were they in the past ? Is there any link between them and the modern Rulers spreading corruption in the lands around the world ?

So the discussion is not whether they are Magyars, Bulgars, Huns or Scythians or Khazars.

If you can prove it to me that Tapuri what your referring to were Gog and Magog or Gog, then can you tell me exactly if the rulers in the modern world are descended from them ?

Because the ruling families in the modern world in our age like Rothchilds or similar ruling elite families and their Eastern European Ashkenazi Jewish agents who have infiltrated the upper echelons of the Western Governments and USA/Israeli Govt, whose descent can easily be traced back to the Khazar Wild Tribe which lived in the Caucuses mountain ranges (where kings built wall to protect against them) which accepted Judaism, assimilated within Eastern European Populations in the later ages.

Can you prove the same about Tapuri ?
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syed_z
02-19-2013, 01:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Quote Originally Posted by syed_z View Post
Salaam ... the AntiChrist is an Individual and not a race....
I mean Anti Christ as a force of evil by people. As Jesus (PUBH) was a man and not the son of God so therefore not Christ so there cannot be an Anti Christ ie a human son of Satan.
Yes I do agree with you brother Karl.... no doubt that Gog and Magog are foot soldiers of Dajjal...they are his force from among mankind....like how Satan has his soldiers from among invisible being...
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Jedi_Mindset
02-19-2013, 01:40 PM
Syed_Z the current ones who are spreading chaos in the middle east are the romans (The americans, NATO). but i think we can agree on one point, that their invasions are engineered by G&M.
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Independent
02-19-2013, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
the romans
On what grounds do you continue to refer to people today as 'Romans', except that you need this term to fit in with your prophecy interpretations?

Half of Europe was never even conquered by Rome, including all of Scandanavia and Germany. Americans are descended from immigrants from these territories, as well as Africa and many other states around the world, none of which were ever Roman.

If Americans are Roman, why aren't Arabs Phoenician, Assyrian, Hittites etc?
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Jedi_Mindset
02-19-2013, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
On what grounds do you continue to refer to people today as 'Romans', except that you need this term to fit in with your prophecy interpretations?

Half of Europe was never even conquered by Rome, including all of Scandanavia and Germany. Americans are descended from immigrants from these territories, as well as Africa and many other states around the world, none of which were ever Roman.

If Americans are Roman, why aren't Arabs Phoenician, Assyrian, Hittites etc?
Romans - ar-rum, litteraly arabic translation, romans are europeans. Americans are europeans, they migrated there a few centuries ago, but that doesnt change their identity. White people in general are referred to as romans by the arabs. I am not referring to the roman empires, but you should look at the word 'roman' itself, the romans were europeans.

Arabs are Arabs, they always lived there.

NATO today is a new european empire, the countries they form are actually one military indutrial complex, they are united in their goals, and they share the same idenity. Turkey belongs to them, because turkey belonged to them in past, hence it is in NATO. Interesting isnt it?
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Independent
02-19-2013, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Romans - ar-rum, litteraly arabic translation, romans are europeans.
So it's a racial term, not a political/state identity? I have no Arabic to test that although google translate does not give the same word for 'European' and 'Roman' (I accept google translate is hit and miss).

In that case, what word do Arabs use for 'Roman' as in the state, not the race?

format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Arabs are Arabs, they always lived there.
Up to a point - probably all people are invaders/immigrants if you go back far enough.

format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Turkey belongs to them, because turkey belonged to them in past, hence it is in NATO. Interesting isnt it?
So did Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the whole of North Africa, but they don't now. (Nor does Turkey 'belong' to the west, but that's another matter.)
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IAmZamzam
02-19-2013, 03:09 PM
You see, this is the problem, syed. I'm approaching this matter as a legitimate issue of historical inquiry and scriptural exegesis. You seem to be approaching it solely to engage in that time-old, yet anything but time-honored, practice of using subjects like eschatology and Gog and Magog an excuse to indulge your conspiracy theories and that perennial human habit of insisting on seeing signs everywhere that Judgment Day is probably nigh in your own age. The proof is all there if you go through my posts and link it all up for yourself and I'm not going to spell it all out for you again just because you hate Zionism or the perceived corruptions of the modern age too much to accept it. As we're talking about a nomadic Scythian tribe that probably moved all over Asia and human ancestry in general is complicated and untraceable in large groups over centuries there could be descendants of the Tapuri anywhere. All over Europe. In Yemen (according to Google, anyway). Still in Russia. Because a shrine to Gog and Magog was found in England they could have ended up in Australia. In America. In the Bahamas, in India, Hong Kong. Or stayed in Great Britain. Or gone to Northern Ireland. Maybe they're in Turkey due to the Goth connection. Before you seize on the "America" part I'm from America and I'm a Muslim. I've known so many decent people here I couldn't name them all if given a piece of paper and unlimited time to write down all the names. You see the problem? Maybe it's just best not to talk about Gog and Magog in the first place. Look what happens when people do. There will never be an excuse to point fingers at huge groups, even unto the world's last sunset. Judgment Day will come exactly when it must, and there's no way anyone can be prepared for such a thing--except by being pious.
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Jedi_Mindset
02-19-2013, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
So it's a racial term, not a political/state identity? I have no Arabic to test that although google translate does not give the same word for 'European' and 'Roman' (I accept google translate is hit and miss).

In that case, what word do Arabs use for 'Roman' as in the state, not the race?
I think the arabs refer it both to the state and the people, when the byzantine empire still occupied the lands of as-sham (The greater syria) the arabs still referred to them as ar-rum. I have not much knowledge of the arabic, since i am an european convert to islam myself, so cant talk much relating to this subject. I need to find a lecture for you from someone who is studied in this matter, or confirmation from an Arabic speaking person.



format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Up to a point - probably all people are invaders/immigrants if you go back far enough.
I cant answer that.



format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
So did Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the whole of North Africa, but they don't now. (Nor does Turkey 'belong' to the west, but that's another matter.)
This also another matter to be explained, its a difficult thing to talk about this subject. And if we discuss further we might derail this thread.
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IAmZamzam
02-19-2013, 03:18 PM
The thread has been hopelessly derailed from the very beginning. Actually, to be honest, I kind of started that ball rolling myself but I had no idea it would spiral out of control like this. Am I the only person who still remembers we were supposed to be talking about a scientific project involving microscoping worms?
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Independent
02-19-2013, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Am I the only person who still remembers we were supposed to be talking about a scientific project involving microscoping worms?
Er....yes.
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Independent
02-19-2013, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Romans - ar-rum, litteraly arabic translation, romans are europeans
I note also that the Arabs referred to the Crusaders as 'Franj' (ie Franks) and not 'ar rum'.
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NjmYqlb
02-20-2013, 07:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
The thread has been hopelessly derailed from the very beginning.
:sl:
I just got back from KSA, and found '666' written on the floor in Al-Haram mosque in the narrow temporary walkway to the As-Safaa and Al-Marwa Sa'ie area but that is another topic :hmm: Thanks to everyone here i have learned a lot more than i expected from your posts even though this thread has gone way off the original topic. Before this i believed as Sheikh Imran Hossein does, and never considered the Vikings. Though i have read somewhere before that the Vikings came from the same area as the Khazar a long long time ago (It would take a while for me to find the reference again). They have the same ancestry so both hypothesis could be right. Also since theres a Hadith saying 999 out of a thousand will go to hell and most of them are Gog and Magog, i believe that those who emulate the real Gog and Magog are also considered part of the Gog and Magog. Allah and His Messenger knows best.

To update on the original topic, it is not any just any cell that they used from the 'army worm';
Flublok uses cells taken from the ovaries of fall armyworms in the pupal stage to crank out its active ingredient
They used the ovary cells! Quoted from a report on www npr org. (I'm not allowed to post links yet)
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Al-Mufarridun
02-20-2013, 10:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I note also that the Arabs referred to the Crusaders as 'Franj' (ie Franks) and not 'ar rum'.
Yes they referred to the Crusaders as franks, but it was also used to refer to western Europeans at large. Like wise at the time of the Prophet(pbuh) Europeans were referred to as Romans, since Rome ruled most of Europe. An example of this is the prominent companion of the Prophet(pbuh) Suhayb ar-Rumi (Suhayb the Roman). He was actually an Arab who as a child grew up in Rome as a slave.

So the term was used to refer to the two empires, both Constantinople and Rome as well as all those who were under those empires, or even to those who were affiliated with them such as the Arab-Christians of ash-Sham.
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Independent
02-20-2013, 11:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
So the term was used to refer to the two empires, both Constantinople and Rome as well as all those who were under those empires, or even to those who were affiliated with them such as the Arab-Christians of ash-Sham.
If 'Roman' can be both a political and an ethnic (or possibly geographical) term, then it just adds to the confusion. Half the people who were once Roman are now designated as Muslim Arabs, Turks etc - because most of the old Byzantine Empire was conquered permanently by the Muslims. Although these people adopted Islam as well as Arabic language and culture, they are still mostly descendants of the same people who once called themselves Roman.

In the west of Europe, from a political point of view there is an absolute break between the old Roman Empire and any of the states that now exist. Again, many of the population are descended from people who once called themselves Roman, intermingled with waves of barbarian invaders.

Surely it is meaningless to think of today's population as 'Roman' and try to see a continuity or parallel with what that term meant in Muhammad's day. Half of these notional 'Romans' are now called 'Arabs'.
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Al-Mufarridun
02-20-2013, 11:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
If 'Roman' can be both a political and an ethnic (or possibly geographical) term, then it just adds to the confusion. Half the people who were once Roman are now designated as Muslim Arabs, Turks etc - because most of the old Byzantine Empire was conquered permanently by the Muslims. Although these people adopted Islam as well as Arabic language and culture, they are still mostly descendants of the same people who once called themselves Roman.

In the west of Europe, from a political point of view there is an absolute break between the old Roman Empire and any of the states that now exist. Again, many of the population are descended from people who once called themselves Roman, intermingled with waves of barbarian invaders.

Surely it is meaningless to think of today's population as 'Roman' and try to see a continuity or parallel with what that term meant in Muhammad's day. Half of these notional 'Romans' are now called 'Arabs'.
There is no confusion here. As was already pointed out, a Roman to the Arabs of the Hijaz and the arabian peninsula at the time of the Prophet(pbuh) was used to refer to the Europeans as well as those who were affiliated with them. you said, 'half of the people who were once Roman are now Muslim arabs, turks'. that is not true. The Arabs who now live in greater Sham and north africa were not living there during the time Rome ruled these lands, nor were the Turks living in what is now Turkey.

The People who ruled both of the Roman empires were from Europe, and their languages were European. There might have been few 'Romanized' Arabs but they still kept their Arab identity, the only 'roman' thing about them was probably their language, and their version of Christianity.
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Independent
02-20-2013, 12:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
you said, 'half of the people who were once Roman are now Muslim arabs, turks'. that is not true
There is much dispute about the extent to which invaders eliminate and replace populations, or whether they create a ruling class and simply absorb (or are absorbed by) the existing population.

In the case of the Muslim invasions, the balance of probability has to come down on the side of the existing population staying where they are, but now with a new identity and (eventually) Arab language and culture. This is especially likely because the original Arab invaders were simply not numerous enough to replace the existing populations. (Also, from what i have read, Muslim historians like to stress peaceful conversion and adaption, not destruction and displacement.) So it makes sense to regard today's populations in the Middle East and North Africa as being to a large extent the descendants of people who once called themselves Roman.

Obviously we're talking about a wide area and in some parts there were further waves of settlement and invasion (eg the Turkic tribes). But in Syria and across North Africa, it's likely that the old 'Romans' are now 'Arabs'. Of course, before they were Roman they were something else again, but that's another story.
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Al-Mufarridun
02-20-2013, 12:36 PM
That is another story for sure.
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syed_z
02-20-2013, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
As we're talking about a nomadic Scythian tribe that probably moved all over Asia and human ancestry in general is complicated and untraceable in large groups over centuries there could be descendants of the Tapuri anywhere. All over Europe. In Yemen (according to Google, anyway). Still in Russia. Because a shrine to Gog and Magog was found in England they could have ended up in Australia. In America. In the Bahamas, in India, Hong Kong. Or stayed in Great Britain. Or gone to Northern Ireland. Maybe they're in Turkey due to the Goth connection.

I think We will have a problem once we try to find the worms eating neck disease somewhere in Bangladesh or Somalia will you then believe based on this finding that they are Gog and Magog ?.... even though that people of that country might have been diseased by the poverty spread due to corruption of their leaders installed and fully backed by Western countries and enslaved due to heavy IMF World Bank interest based loans ?

If that's your criteria to find Gog and Magog then best of luck. I have no arguments with you.


format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Before you seize on the "America" part I'm from America and I'm a Muslim. I've known so many decent people here I couldn't name them all if given a piece of paper and unlimited time to write down all the names. You see the problem? Maybe it's just best not to talk about Gog and Magog in the first place. Look what happens when people do. There will never be an excuse to point fingers at huge groups, even unto the world's last sunset.
Brother thats the problem I see you have, you're an American 1st and then a Muslim.... I am a Muslim 1st and then a Pakistani....so if Pakistanis do something wrong, I will not support that and that's how It should be.

If Zionist Jews with their Banking Industry (IMF, World Bank, Fed Res) are in an unholy alliance with Zionist Christian Leaders like Reagan, George Bush (A freemason) and Mellenialists in NATO and USA Armies, and are wreaking havoc across the world in general and MENA region in particular.... then we Must accept it whether we are American or no. Its not that I am pointing fingers for no reason, as you have mentioned...


format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
You seem to be approaching it solely to engage in that time-old, yet anything but time-honored, practice of using subjects like eschatology and Gog and Magog an excuse to indulge your conspiracy theories and that perennial human habit of insisting on seeing signs everywhere that Judgment Day is probably nigh in your own age.
Since you are a Muslim , then I would like to inform you what a Muslim is supposed to do when he/she enters the Last Age and what the Prophet (saw) himself informed us to do exactly when that last age approaches....


"...The day that some of the Signs of your Lord do come( i.e. Gog and Magog, Dajjal, Beast of the Earth, Sun rising from the West), no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (by performing deeds of righteousness) through his Faith..." [al-An'aam (6):158]

Pick up any commentary and Praise be to Allah (swt) All commentaries about this Verse mention the Prophet (saw) himself reciting this Verse whenever He spoke about any major signs of the last days, for eg. Gog and Magog or Dajjal etc.

He recited this Verse not for the sake of Just recitation, but to remind the Muslims of that age to relay his words to the Muslims of every generation to study the subject of Eschatology so that we are warned, and look for those signs in order to save ourselves, keep away from harms, hold on to our Iman and work accordingly in that age knowing our enemies who they are....

As a Muslim we're supposed to identify our enemies and if they have appeared in the face of Zionism then we have to admit and warn others who have not understood. The age of Dajjal is the worst...

Prophet (saw) said...

"Between time of the creation of Adam and the Resurrection Day, there is nothing greater than the mischief of Dajjal (the Antichrist).''

[Muslim Book 41,Chapter 23, Hadith # 7037]

...it is during the Age of Dajjal that Gog and Magog will take over the world order, Jesus (a.s) will descend and other signs etc.

Not supririsngly whenever you try to understand the subject of Gog and Magog in the Quran or the Traditions of the Prophet (saw), only one city and land is mentioned with their rising to power in the world, and that is the Land of Israel.

So you take out Zionist Israel and its Western allies particularly USA and Britain and study the subject of Gog and Magog in isolation..... then you would be like the following person...

Who wants to study subject of Satan, because you have read little about him or paid little attention to him in Islam and then try and read every book on earth to gather and read about Satan and get confused with all of this information going no where or worst getting misguided, especially when there have been interpolations made in all the other divinely revealed books....while all you had to to do was make Islam the criteria of right and wrong and try to understand accordingly....



To the original poster I am sorry If the topic has been derailed because of me, I wanted to make it clear as to who are the actual descndants of Gog and Magog in the modern age amongst the ruling elite ... so what we've discussed so far was also important before we move ahead.....

About the disease I have little information which InshA'Allah which I would also share.

Salaam.
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IAmZamzam
02-20-2013, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Brother thats the problem I see you have, you're an American 1st and then a Muslim.... I am a Muslim 1st and then a Pakistani....so if Pakistanis do something wrong, I will not support that and that's how It should be.
I beg your pardon?!

I will give you one chance, and one chance only, to explain yourself. Because it sounds an awful lot like you think I am a part of Gog and Magog, even though I'm a Muslim, just because I happen to live within certain imaginary lines, and anyone who happens to be a citizen of certain countries automatically supports anything their leaders do all the time. I'm willing to believe you're not an anti-Semite but I'm still having to desperately hold out hope that you're not an ethnocentric. Americans get quite a lot of that, you must understand. All I was saying is that there are decent people in every country in the world.

Nothing comes before Islam for me. Do you hear me? Have I made myself clear??
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syed_z
02-21-2013, 06:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I beg your pardon?!

I will give you one chance, and one chance only, to explain yourself. Because it sounds an awful lot like you think I am a part of Gog and Magog, even though I'm a Muslim, just because I happen to live within certain imaginary lines, and anyone who happens to be a citizen of certain countries automatically supports anything their leaders do all the time.
I was just telling you not to get offended if i am talking about what USA govt in its support of Zionism is doing in the Middle East.... i never said your part of Gog and Magog.... please don't take it that way.... i never said that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Americans get quite a lot of that, you must understand. All I was saying is that there are decent people in every country in the world.
I would be doing injustice if I start blaming each and every citizen of USA/ West in general for the wars and corruption being spread around the world..... and I am NOT blaming each and every person.... I never said that each and every American is bad....

All I was trying to make you realize was that you fail to notice who Gog and Magog are in this age of our, when they have become most powerful and your studying the subject would be of no use if you just study from historical perspective.

Please don't get offended.

Take care of your self and Salaam.
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IAmZamzam
02-21-2013, 02:30 PM
I understand now. But you must understand that Qur'an 21:96 and 7:187 make it clear that nobody is going to be capable of being prepared for Gog and Magog anyway, whoever they are, when they strike. They'll be too many of them to handle, they will apparently be coming upon us suddenly, and Judgment Day "will not come to you except unexpectedly". Gog and Magog will "swoop down from every mound", which apparently refers to the old trope of the cavalry charge coming up over the hill at the last minute or something. In other words the whole world will be their battlefield and they'll strike all at once and be free to send reinforcements to pretty much anywhere. I ask you, does it matter very much who these people are exactly? What matters is if your soul is ready--whether for that or for dying before it can happen--not what the political beliefs of your next door neighbor may be. Is it?
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Scimitar
02-21-2013, 03:24 PM
On topic,

Syed_Z has a point when he mentions the "criteria" for determining who gog and magog are according to the disease (worms).

One thing that HAS to be mentioned here is that, these worms will not burrow into the necks of gog and magog until the Muslims are trapped on the mount with Isa AS and surrounded by hoards of gog and magog.

And we do know one thing. It is Isa AS who will make a dua to Allah and thus Allah will cause the worms to kill the G&M. Digging any deeper into the disease is a little futile imo.

Scimi
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syed_z
02-22-2013, 07:46 PM
Asalaam O Alaikum... brother Scimitar and Yahya..

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
"will not come to you except unexpectedly". Gog and Magog will "swoop down from every mound", which apparently refers to the old trope of the cavalry charge coming up over the hill at the last minute or something.
If Dajjal's 'donkey' which has a a distance of 40 feet or cubits (im not sure) between its ears refers symbolically to an airplane in our age, which obviously makes sense, then I don't think that 'swooping down from every mound' is old method of cavalry charge being referred to... I believe it means that they would reach the acme of their power around the world and control the world through globalization and spread corruption in all aspects of global societies, whether economic, social, family, educational thus 'swooping down from every mound'...

Poet and Islamic Scholar said these words about Yajuj Majuj based on 21:96...

Khul ga’ay Ya’jūj aur Ma’jūj kay lashkar tamām,
Chashmay Muslim dekh lay tafsīray harfay yansilūn!

“Set loose are all the hordes of Gog and Magog;
To the Muslim eye manifest is the meaning of the word yansilūn”

Tamaam in my language means All....

Iqbal believed that all the hordes are already loose and have reached their acme of power which they were divinely decreed by Allah (swt) to reach in the last Age..

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
In other words the whole world will be their battlefield and they'll strike all at once and be free to send reinforcements to pretty much anywhere.
Also if Prophet (saw) said in a Hadith that ...

“People would continue to perform the Hajj and ‘Umrah even after the release of Gog and Magog”
(sahih bukhari)

So Muslims will be going about their daily lives, even though with corruption widespread in their societies, so the whole world will not be a battle field when they will all be release.... yet a final crash between them will take place.... but since the hadith mentions that people would continue to perform hajj and umrah which they are still doing.... that could probably mean the the final crash making the large part of earth their battle field between their Hordes has not take place and will take place in the near future i.e. in the face of Russia/China Vs USA/NATO ... which will drag their fight to a large extent in Middle East and cause the slaughter of Arabs...and abandonment of Hajj which is also a sign ...

Narrated Shu'ba extra: The Hour (i.e. Last Hour) will not be established till the Hajj (to the Ka'ba) is abandoned. (Bukhari)


format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I ask you, does it matter very much who these people are exactly? What matters is if your soul is ready--whether for that or for dying before it can happen--not what the political beliefs of your next door neighbor may be. Is it?
We Muslims have a duty to spread the word to the rest of mankind, also to understand better this subject well so at least we can explain this subject of Gog and Magog and the Fasad in the modern world because if Muslims can understand these 2 things and spread the word then the Non Muslims will know Islam is the truth as it is the only religion that explains the Modern age and Gog and Magog like no one else. This will cause them to accept Islam as well.
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syed_z
02-22-2013, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
One thing that HAS to be mentioned here is that, these worms will not burrow into the necks of gog and magog until the Muslims are trapped on the mount with Isa AS and surrounded by hoards of gog and magog.
Salaam.... If that is so brother then the hadith mentions that they would not be affected by neck disease till they all are released and till Isa (a.s) prays against them from the mountain, but it also says that when they are loose ....

....The first of them will pass by Lake Tiberias (i.e. the Sea of Galilee) and drink out of it, and when the last of them passes, he will say: ‘There was once water here . . . .’” (muslim)

So if the water in Sea of Galilee is already drying up which is a fact, then that would mean Muslims should already be trapped in the mountain somewhere in Middle East or near Syria where Isa (a.s) will descend, and that hasn't happened yet because Muslims are every where still..... but the lake is drying up ?

So how would you reconcile this matter.


Btw the neck disease that I wanted to mention about is a Graves Disease that I found out a few years back when Arrivals was released that Barbara Bush has and even George Bush Snr has (whose occult name is Magog in case if you didn't kn0w in the illuminati circles) and this disease affects thyroid in the neck commonly....thats all information I have about neck disease causing them....I could very well be wrong but thats the only information I have about a 'neck disease' linked to 'gog and magog'....Allah (swt) knows best.
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NjmYqlb
03-02-2013, 05:40 PM
:sl:
There is a video made about this Flublock vaccine on you tube. I can't post links but you can paste this after the youtube address to watch it
/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-Yu80scSsCA#!
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Ahmad H
03-05-2013, 12:59 AM
I have something to add in here. I see there is a lot of debate about who Gog and Magog are. This is obviously a confusing issue if you try to connect the dots based on the Ahadith. There can be varying interpretations based on what is said in them. However, I believe that every prophecy has it's own time for being revealed, and if the identity of Gog and Magog is to be known, then such people will have to be called Gog and Magog in some way shape or form.

That being said, there are enough signs that the people of Gog and Magog exist. If one looks up the legend of Gog and Magog, they will see that they are a folktale by the British people. Coincidence? I think not. There are statues of Gog and Magog everywhere in London. There is one in Guildhall, one on top of the BBC building, and in many other locations. The British celebrate this folktale. Furthermore, there are locations named after Gog and Magog in Canada, Australia and England.

The British colonized many parts of the world, and so did many European countries. The whole world was in the hands of Europeans, and no one else. So the "hordes" of Gog and Magog are very clearly described then. And if the Jews were to return to Israel only during the time of Gog and Magog, then it makes perfect sense, since the British made the mandate for the division between Israel and Palestine, defining the borders. It was the British who made Israel.

The offspring of the British, the Americans, have military bases in every part of the globe, and they have the world's strongest military power. They wage war often, and they are undefeated when it comes to the heights in war technology. They rain down fire from the sky, scorch the earth, attack Muslim cities and they defy God Himself by preaching democracy and trying to rid the Muslim world of Sharia. They denounce Islam so much that the world looks at Islam with disgust because of the propaganda used in American television. Thus, these people, who are clearly Gog and Magog, conquered the world, and now their goal is to try and remove the institution of Islam and fight against the people of Heaven (Muslims). Even in their own country they fight against religion and all religious institutions trying to undermine them and rid themselves of it.

I don't know how anyone has missed this. The sea of Galilee is being used so much that it's water level is steadily decreasing, to an alarming extent. Israel is funded by America, and they have a strong military presence in the Middle East. no one dares fight them, nor America - because no one has the power to stand up against them with military strength! They have swooped over the whole world.

Not to mention, they released a virtual hell on earth during WWII, by releasing atomic bombs over Japan. Have you seen the description of Hell on earth more accurately than when you see the fiery explosion of a nuclear bomb? The only ones who have used such bombs, and are most likely to use them again, are America and their allies. They do not allow the Muslims to gain military strength so that they have the upper hand. This prophecy has revealed itself in it's most awesome manifestation, that anyone with the sound understanding of these Ahadith can see that the world has already seen this prophecies being fulfilled. It is happening right before our very eyes!

As for the worm, only time will tell. Why do you speculate on the meaning of this? It could be a disease, it could really be a boil on the necks. No one knows exactly how it will happen. But when it happens, we will know. Allah opens the hearts for people to see these signs when He wills them to see it. I think it is very clear. For what has not happened yet, we should say Allah knows best what it is that will happen. We must accept that these things will happen, without knowing exactly how they will happen. The more you speculate, the more you judge what it is that will happen and then consider your own interpretation to be correct on the matter, forgetting that Allah reveals everything at its proper time.

I think the more interesting question here is exactly who are Gog and Magog. For this another thread is required. I shared my viewpoints. I am sure many more of us will want to explore this further. I have no doubt that these signs are happening, since it is no different than knowing the difference between being hit on the head or not when you've been hit on the head. You would definitely know when it happens.
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IAmZamzam
03-05-2013, 02:30 AM
Maybe Gog and Magog should be a forbidden topic at religious message boards. It's just not wholesome to discuss.

Let me see if maybe, just maybe, I can restore a little reason, though it certainly hasn't worked every time I've tried it before. Here's what matters:

1. Nobody can be prepared for Judgment Day. It will not come upon us except unexpectedly. The Qur'an explicitly says so.
2. Gog and Magog will be impossible to fight. The Qur'an clearly says so. Not that it matters when you're so close to the end anyway.
3. The important thing is whether your soul is ready. Once again I refer you to the scripture.

Look, I know that conspiracy theories serve a very useful psychological need. As much fear as they're rooted in they also are ironically relieving, in a way. It's nice to have a scapegoat to pin all the world's ills on. But put yourself in my shoes, for example. I'm an American Muslim. Imagine how I must feel, hearing people talk like this.
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Ahmad H
03-05-2013, 04:23 AM
Conspiracy theory? Are you kidding me? And just because you're an American your offended? I was born in America. I live in Canada. America is not a scapegoat for the world's ills. America is part of the problem since their politics are normally involved in these matters. But if you think I am making up anything above, then you're sorely mistaken.

I mentioned that America, Britain and the other Western countries exhibit the signs mentioned in the Ahadith about what Gog and Magog would do. America just happens to exhibit some of these signs - such as being the world's strongest military power. This is an undeniable fact. Gog and Magog would be the most superior group of people in war, whom no one can withstand in a fight. This is the same stance that America has.

Perhaps you should research more into these Ahadith before you go dismissing the fulfilled signs about Gog and Magog. It seems your psychological problem like other Americans is that they can't take any criticism and think everything they do is fine and dandy. I have every right to speak against the country I was born in. It is, well, my birthright. I may not live there, but I, as a citizen, have every right to denounce the wrongs of the country I am from.

And yes, this subject is a wholesome one to discuss. One, it is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, and two, it is a major sign of the Day of Judgment. It is important to recognize the signs when they arrive. I mentioned that many signs are fulfilled because if people don't realize that they are fulfilled, then they will not be aware of what their actions should be. They will know that they should: (1) Announce to Muslims to not fight against these nations, since it is a losing battle in terms of military strength and (2) they should pray against Gog and Magog so that Allah removes their power in order for Muslims to become more politically stable rather than relying on other means. Correct knowledge means correct courses of action can be taken by the Muslims. This is why this subject is important. Do you see any Middle Eastern countries following this course? No.

Therefore, this subject is extremely important for discussion. Once the problem is identified, the solution can be administered. Only peaceful means of fighting, such as prayers and writing against false propaganda can overcome the ills created by Western societies against Muslim countries. Muslims have not helped by enforcing Islam in many places, and have definitely not helped by using military agendas to spread their message to the world. This is exactly why peace does not reign in Muslim countries, and why the problem needs to be identified.

Seriously, read into the subject a bit more before dismissing it. I know very well that many Americans do not like how their country is being run. It needs a lot of change. I am not saying America should be destroyed, but if the system changes for the better and the people running it do thing differently, it can be a much better nation than it is now. Blaming the problem is fine. It's you who doesn't understand this.
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IAmZamzam
03-05-2013, 04:37 AM
I'm not accusing anyone of making up anything. I don't think squat is fine and dandy. And I understand very well.

My problem is precisely this: the topic is just as dangerous as it is pointless. Dangerous because by its very nature it gets you to point fingers hatefully or fearfully at large groups. Pointless because Muslims should always be focusing their energies on how well-prepared their souls are, and on trying to do their part in Allah preparing the souls of those around them. When it comes to the signs of Judgment Day, when the major ones come they should by all rights be unmistakable, not debatable, and the more you let your attention be drawn away from your prayers and dawah and onto things like politics, the more that Gog and Magog themselves, in a sense, have won. Focus, friend, focus. If you really do think Gog and Magog may be upon us then that should be all the more reason not to be talking about them all the time. It should be all the more reason to be talking about Allah instead. Not current affairs. But I'll remind you that people have been believing this sort of thing every generation in history now since who knows when anyway. It's perennial.
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Scimitar
03-05-2013, 05:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Salaam.... If that is so brother then the hadith mentions that they would not be affected by neck disease till they all are released and till Isa (a.s) prays against them from the mountain, but it also says that when they are loose ....

....The first of them will pass by Lake Tiberias (i.e. the Sea of Galilee) and drink out of it, and when the last of them passes, he will say: ‘There was once water here . . . .’” (muslim)

So if the water in Sea of Galilee is already drying up which is a fact, then that would mean Muslims should already be trapped in the mountain somewhere in Middle East or near Syria where Isa (a.s) will descend, and that hasn't happened yet because Muslims are every where still..... but the lake is drying up ?

So how would you reconcile this matter.
It's rather black and white for bro Syed_Z,

Yes, Tiberias is drying up... yes, G&M are released, and no, the last of them have not passed yet. They release in waves, the last wave will be the one when Isa AS is on earth after and after Isa AS has killed the dajjal. Muslims will still nbe large in number, but many will also die in the wars that ensue during dajjals 37 days on earth in our time zone... But before that, the stage is set - a lot of Muslims will die... that has already started. Look at the middle east today, every Muslim country has been attacked except for the AIPAC lovers, like Saudi and their cronie neighbouring states. And that's all gonna change once the dajjal appears on earth in human form. We can be certain that this time will be a time of much turmoil for Muslims and many of us will be killed. And Saudi won't be spared... remember Dajjal will try to enter Makkah and Madinah but angels will be guarding them against his evil.

Fast forward to Isa AS and the Muslims are still large in number, and isa AS defeats the antichrist, dajjal, and then a period of peace ensues as Mahdi AS is globally recognised as the liberator. There is a period of peace, then the final wave of G&M is released, At that time, THAT TIME, the G&M will drink the last of the water away in lake Tiberias, and hence we know that the last of them will say "there was water here once". And many MANY Muslims will die...Isa AS will be cornered on the mount with the remaining companions, and thus - what i said in my last post above, resumes. Isa AS makes the dua and a worm burrows into the necks of the G&M, thus they die, then a gentle wind comes to take the souls of the remaining believers away, and they die... then - well, the trumpet will be blown.

One thing is certain, we've never been closer to that moment than we are today... tomorrow we'll be even closer.

Allahu Alam.



format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
the neck disease that I wanted to mention about is a Graves Disease that I found out a few years back when Arrivals was released that Barbara Bush has and even George Bush Snr has (whose occult name is Magog in case if you didn't kn0w in the illuminati circles) and this disease affects thyroid in the neck commonly....thats all information I have about neck disease causing them....I could very well be wrong but thats the only information I have about a 'neck disease' linked to 'gog and magog'....Allah (swt) knows best.
Interesting stuff, but I am under the impression that this "worm" is something else. let's look at this logically, plenty of Muslims I know have problems with their thyroid glands, heck even I was told i had an overactive thyroid as a child, which somehow managed to correct itself when I hit my teens. I don't think it's a thyroid gland problem bro. just my two dirhams.

Scimi
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NjmYqlb
03-05-2013, 05:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
As for the worm, only time will tell. Why do you speculate on the meaning of this? It could be a disease, it could really be a boil on the necks
:sl:
Vaccines are a way to control population, according to Bill Gates' speech. In recent years, there have been an incredible increase in vaccines given to people. You do realize that there are different groups among the forces that oppose Allah, right? And they are distrustful of one another. What i am trying to say is be aware of what you put in your body, don't trust the vaccine industry blindly, trace it far enough you'll probably get to Rockefeller. When Jesus a.s makes his du'aa i hope only Gog and Magog will die with worms eating their necks, but the hadith doesn't specify 'only' them. Others might die the same way too, perhaps those with genetically modified 'armyworm' egg cells already in their bodies. Better to be cautious. It is up to you to accept the vaccine after the next flu pandemic, as i don't have enough data to confirm the dangers.
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Scimitar
03-05-2013, 07:09 AM
I doubt its a vaccine sister... the worm is mentioned to "burrow" into their necks...

noun1.a hole or tunnel in the ground made by a rabbit, fox, or similar animal for habitation and refuge.

2.a place of retreat; shelter or refuge.


verb (used without object)3.to make a hole or passage in, into, or under something.

4.to lodge in a burrow.

5.to hide.

6.to proceed by or as if by digging.



verb (used with object)7.to put a burrow into (a hill, mountainside, etc.).

8.to hide (oneself), as in a burrow.

9.to make by or as if by burrowing: We burrowed our way through the crowd.



Scimi
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Ahmad H
03-05-2013, 08:47 PM
Look, I understand that this topic can be dangerous as many Muslims add conspiracy theories into it. However, the Holy Qur'an mentions this issue, so because it would encompass the whole world, which it does, it is important to identify the matter and then act accordingly.

Gog and Magog are definitely a political phenomenon, while the Dajjal is a spiritually hazardous phenomenon. Both exist now. Yes, my attention is on Allah. But that is precisely why I like to point out the obvious thing, which is that these two evils are prevalent right now, and that Muslims should act accordingly. They should not fight in physical warfare against the West, and they should try to rid themselves of the religious ignorance and deceit of the Dajjal as well (which encompasses the whole world). The way to fight Dajjal is to write against the people who are against Islam. They are the manifestation of this Dajjal. That is another issue on its own.

I think you need to face up to the fact that Islam is being attacked from all sides, and unless Muslims reform themselves and gain religious knowledge, they cannot fight the ignorance. This age is a dangerous one. Every Muslim knows it. That is why I am pointing out that these things are happening right now before our very eyes. Obviously our focus is on Allah. But it is not a waste of time to point out the best course of action considering this prophecy.

You said that we will know when these things happen. And I said precisely that. They are happening now. I think you contradicted yourself. But that's fine. I don't think there is any point of contention here. Although, I can see your frustration. I do see people still spouting odd theories here and there about this issue. My point is that there is no conspiracy, everything is in the open and clear to the Muslims who are close to Allah. I have asked Allah to explain this issue to me through various dreams, and I understand that this age is that dangerous age. I will not openly publicize them, but I am saying that if anyone wants to understand this issue, it requires spiritual closeness with Allah, not political mumbo jumbo.
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IAmZamzam
03-05-2013, 09:51 PM
I am glad to see that your priorities aren't altogether out of place, and I hope you don't take anything I said the wrong way. But the thing is, when you're even passingly familiar with human history it's hard not to get a little bit cynical when people say, "These signs of the endtimes are taking place now." Because while eventually such a time must come the people at that time will probably have to pretty much end up being right entirely by accident seeing as how they've always said that, during every generation ever. And each generation has been as positive as the one before it, and each has come up with arguments just as persuasive as the one before it, and the arguments of each have of course been tied to the political buttons being pushed in those times. Today it's the west and Zionism. In my parents' generation (well, here in the west, anyway) it was Communism that would surely bring the end. Before that it was World War II that made it absolutely certain. Flip through The Bible and you'll find the New Testament repeatedly dropping hints that the local Roman authorities will be the cause of the impending apocalypse. (For example "the number of the beast" probably refers to Nero Caesar.) If it's not one thing it's another, the common thread always being the big bad hairy scary monster of the age. Monsters, real or imaginary, come and go and coincidences happen. Anyone could die at any time, you know, well before the trumpet is blown. I ask again, whose soul is ready?
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Ahmad H
03-06-2013, 04:04 AM
Yes, I know that every generation has had their own views. But you have to admit, when the very same people who have ruled the world with an empire that identify themselves with the ACTUAL legendary figures of Gog and Magog, and have helped with the creation of Israel (connected in the Qur'an to the time of Gog and Magog, chapter 21) and add to that, the Sea of Galilee (Lake Tabriyya) is being diminished by excessive use - then these are very obvious signs. These have never happened before.
By the way, communism was just a rouse to get Americans afraid so that the government could utilize that fear to direct their attention towards an external threat, much like how the US is constantly creating an external threat when there is none. It may change from country to country, but it is always present.
I am not saying the end is nigh. No one knows when the end will happen. But you cannot ignore what the Holy Qur'an says.

Similarly for the case of Dajjal. He has been identified in the Holy Qur'an in the first ten verses. So whoever you see in fits the description within those verses, and the last ten verses, then they are inevitably that same Dajjal. This is because the Holy Prophet (saw) told us to recite those verses in prayer to be protected from the Dajjal when we encounter him. How would we know that? By conspiracy theory? Fat chance. Allah does not leave us in the dark about such an important issue so we can suffer. The answer lies in those very same verses, YET, no one seems to notice this very obvious fact.

My point is, do not ignore the Holy Qur'an. These signs are all in Allah's Book. So do not ignore what Allah has told you. If these are the biggest Fitnah for Muslims, then you'd best be aware of them and stay on guard. Simple. Again, I am well aware of the conspiracy theories, but that is not what I am talking about. I find these things are clearly mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, and when you know what they say, you are well aware that they are happening now.
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IAmZamzam
03-06-2013, 03:43 PM
First you say "communism was nothing more than a rouse", then you say "yeah, yeah, I know there are conspiracy theories out there but..." Oh the political atmosphere positively dripped with anti-communist feelings back then. That politicians eagerly seized on it from time to time and took advantage of the situation doesn't mean a thing. They always do that. Carpe diem. Use whatever you've got to work with.

Tell me, is anything in the whole world not tied to Israel in some way? Forgive me if I'm being too harsh but it seems to me that the state of the ummah these days is that if someone loses their dog in Belize Zionists will somehow get blamed. This is a fairly substantial part of what I mean when I speak of all the worlds ills being pinned on a scapegoat. I'm not a Zionist. I am, in fact, firmly opposed to nationalism of all kinds, whether Israeli, Palestinian, American, Belizean, or Martian. The only difference between nationalism and jingoism is that the former is a euphemism for the latter. But all the same I'd be lying if I said that I'm not starting to develop a downright Pavlovian aversion to the very sound of the word "Zionism". When I hear someone angrily speak that word I know it's bad news, because I know I'm about to hear--brace yourself because I'm about to say it again--a conspiracy theory. And at least one time out of four there are going to be subtle undercurrents of anti-Semitism involved. Sometimes it's not even subtle.

Israel is only one country. I live in America so I know this better than you guys: most of the government's actions have nothing whatsoever to do with it. In fact if anything the main problem with our government is that it's too self-centered. Too self-absorbed. Cares too little for anyone else, sometimes including its own allies. When it comes across as cliquish that's probably mainly because you're hearing selective reporting. (Don't get me wrong, news media is biased everywhere, including here. It's universal--if not unavoidable.) During his presidential campaign one of Romney's repeated points of attack on Obama was that the man wasn't doing enough for Israel. (Remember: those are his words, not mine: he was trying to appeal to the Christian right.) With our economy we have enough to deal with on our own, especially now with all this talk of the "fiscal cliff". Israel is the very last thing on the government's mind. Every politician has to think of the country he lives in first--and in no country more than America, perhaps, where they have the gall to call the president "the leader of the free world" (he's not even the leader of this one nation! Do we have a three-branch government or not?!), are they any happier to oblige.

You want to talk about listening to Allah's signs? How about when He said, "It will not come upon you but suddenly?"
Reply

Abu Loren
03-06-2013, 09:16 PM
Sahih International

Until,when he reached [a pass] between two mountains, he found beside them a peoplewho could hardly understand [his] speech. 18:93

These are Jews andChristians who did not understand the message of the Holy Qur’an and they rejected it as if it was a foreign language.

They said,"O Dhul-Qarnayn, indeed Gog and Magog are [great] corrupters in the land.So may we assign for you an expenditure that you might make between us and thema barrier?" 18:94

Who are the great corrupters in the land? Jews and Christians. This barrier still stands.

He said,"That in which my Lord has established me is better [than what you offer],but assist me with strength; I will make between you and them a dam.18:95

What the Lord has established was Islam. The dam is needed to keep their faulty influence out of the religion that God Himself has established.

Bring mesheets of iron" - until, when he had leveled [them] between the twomountain walls, he said, "Blow [with bellows]," until when he hadmade it [like] fire, he said, "Bring me, that I may pour over it moltencopper." 18:96

Copper is considered to be better than iron. So Islam will cover over and will become dominant over Judaism and Christianity.

So Gog andMagog were unable to pass over it, nor were they able [to effect] in it anypenetration. 18:97

The Jews andChristians will never be able to defeat Islam as it is protected by AllahSubhana Wa Ta’ala Himself.

Narrated Zainab bintJahsh:
That the Prophet ( )came to her in a state of fear saying, "None has the right to be worshipedbut Allah! Woe to the Arabs because of evil that has come near. Today a holehas been made in the wall of Gog and Magog as large as this." pointingwith two of his fingers making a circle. Zainab said, "I said, 'O Allah'sMessenger ( )!Shall we be destroyed though amongst us there are pious people? ' He said,'Yes, if evil increases."
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3598
In-book reference : Book 61, Hadith 106
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 56, Hadith 797

Atthe dawn of Islam it created a hole in the dam that was keeping Gog and Magogbarricaded. This whole has been increasing ever since.
Towards the Endof Days there will be a global religious warfare between the forces of Islamagainst the rest, lead by the Dajjal America and it’s Allies. Billionsof people will die.
An-Nawwas b. Sam'anreported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of theDajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him to be insignificantand sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant rand we felt) as if hewere in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the HolyProphet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) in our faces, he said:
What is the matter with you? Wesaid: Allah's Messenger, you made a mention of the Dajjal in the morning(sometimes describing him) to be insignificant and sometimes very important,until we began to think as if he were present in some (near) part of thecluster of the datpalm trees. Thereupon he said: I harbour fear in regard toyou in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I amamong on, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth whileI am not amongst you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah would takecare of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He(Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. Icompare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to seehim should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He wouldappear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right andleft. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah'sMessenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said.. For forty days, oneday like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the restof the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would oneday's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon hesaid: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). Wesaid: Allah's Messenger, how quickly would he walk upon the earth? Thereupon hesaid: Like cloud driven by the wind. He would come to the people and invitethem (to a wrong religion) and they would affirm their faith in him and respondto him. He would then give command to the sky and there would be rainfall uponthe earth and it would grow crops. Then in the evening, their posturing animalswould come to them with their humps very high and their udders full of milk andtheir flanks stretched. He would then come to another people and invite them.But they would reject him and he would go away from them and there would bedrought for them and nothing would be lef t with them in the form of wealth. Hewould then walk through the waste, land and say to it: Bring forth yourtreasures, and the treasures would come out and collect (themselves) before himlike the swarm of bees. He would then call a person brimming with youth andstrike him with the sword and cut him into two pieces and (make these pieceslie at a distance which is generally) between the archer and his target. Hewould then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with hisface gleaming (with happiness) and it would at this very time that Allah wouldsend Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in theeastern side of Damscus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron andplacing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head,there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raiseit up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who wouldsmell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as hewould be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he wouldcatch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whomAllah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe theirfaces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under suchconditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forthfrom amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight;you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magogand they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass thelake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, hewould say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then bebesieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head ofthe ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah's Apostle,Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to theminsects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perishlike one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would thencome down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as asingle span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah'sApostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who wouldsend birds whose necks would be like those of bactrin camels and they wouldcarry them and throw them where God would will. Then Allah would send rainwhich no house of clay or (the tent of) camels' hairs would keep out and itwould wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror. Then the earthwould be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as aresult thereof, there would grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group ofpersons would be able to eat that, and seek shelter under its skin and milchcow would give so much milk that a whole party would be able to drink it. Andthe milch camel would give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribewould be able to drink out of that and the milch sheep would give so much milkthat the whole family would be able to drink out of that and at that time Allahwould send a pleasant wind which would soothe (people) even under theirarmpits, and would take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked wouldsurvive who would commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come tothem.

Sahih Muslim

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 41, Hadith 7015
Arabic reference : Book 55, Hadith 7559

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IAmZamzam
03-06-2013, 10:00 PM
For one thing that hadith says that Jesus is supposed to come before The Tur is drunk from. You can twist anything around to refer to the current times. People have done it in every era with Nostradamus, for example, and will continue to do so for as long as the world endures. I wonder why it is that deep down they want it to be that way. Maybe they just like the idea that the big bad hairy scary monster of the age is going to be punished very soon. Don't worry: when you consider how relatively little time each person has before we shuffle off this mortal coil I don't really see what difference it makes anyway.

I'm sorry if I've sounded a little dismissive so far, even cold. I do have our best interests in mind. Like I've said before this whole subject strikes me as one huge slippery slope into the worst aspects of human nature, and even if you can avoid the easy push downwards you're still not going anywhere that there's an actual need, a pragmatic purpose for you to be. I've kind of been hoping since early on that this thread would die out on its own and yet every time, even when it's lain dormant for several days, somehow it's still always come back, like a slasher movie villain. I fear we'll never be rid of it. We were supposed to be talking about Flublok, weren't we?
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Abu Loren
03-07-2013, 02:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I'm sorry if I've sounded a little dismissive so far, even cold.
Not at all John, I was expecting worse to be honest.

Looking at Gog and Magog literally makes no sense whatsoever. We are probably condeming a people (whoever is in the north) without really meaning to.
In Surah Al Khaf I don't think that the companions of the cave nor the story of Dhul Qarnayn are to be taken literally. There are more deeper meanings there for us to ponder on.
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IAmZamzam
03-07-2013, 02:34 AM
Don't you think that's a little hypocritical of you, Abu?

Nonetheless you may have a point about that other thing: it's so easy to overlook the fact that The Book often seems to be making a point of...well, making a point. Honestly from the way people talk you'd think that the older a source is the more literally it needs to be taken. But even barring that sometimes even those who aren't ordinarily literal-minded may end up taking things at face value when they shouldn't anyway, whether out of innocent misunderstanding or lack of imagination or just because they never bothered to think about it that way before.
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Abu Loren
03-07-2013, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Don't you think that's a little hypocritical of you, Abu?

Nonetheless you may have a point about that other thing: it's so easy to overlook the fact that The Book often seems to be making a point of...well, making a point. Honestly from the way people talk you'd think that the older a source is the more literally it needs to be taken. But even barring that sometimes even those who aren't ordinarily literal-minded may end up taking things at face value when they shouldn't anyway, whether out of innocent misunderstanding or lack of imagination or just because they never bothered to think about it that way before.
I hope you don't mind me calling you John, just being a cheeky chappie.

I laugh at Sheikh Imran Hosain, have a look at his youtube rantings. Really funny to me.
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Ahmad H
03-07-2013, 04:32 AM
I know many Muslims blame Israel for everything. Did I say that I blame them for everything? No. I was merely stating that a sign of the end times, and hence the appearance of Gog and Magog in prophecies, is the creation of Israel. Plain and simple. Don't blow things out of proportion here since you are reading my words with some preconceptions of your own.

As for your words:
"You want to talk about listening to Allah's signs? How about when He said, "It will not come upon you but suddenly?""

The sign of Gog and Magog is NOT the Hour itself, but is BEFORE the Hour comes. Thus, the meaning of the phrase, "it will not come but suddenly" applies only to the Hour itself, and not the coming of the Imam Mahdi, Dajjal, Eisa (as), Gog and Magog, the Beast, the smoke, etc. These are not in that category. The Hour comes after all of the signs about the appearance of the Hour comes. I honestly think you need to read up more since you really don't know what you're talking about here.

Again, i refer you to read the last two Ruku of Surah Kahf and the last Ruku in Surah Anbiya. They speak about these signs. Read the Tafsir on it from various sources. Then read the Ahadith on this subject, and reflect upon it. There is a difference between the signs which come before the Hour and the Hour itself. The Ahadith say that the Hour would come suddenly, so that no one is aware that it comes until it actually comes upon them. It would come AFTER the ten major signs occur. None of this is anything useless, since it all comes from the Holy Qur'an. No one knows when the Day of Judgment comes, but there are signs about its approach. This is in the famous Hadith about Hazrat Jibra'il (as) coming as a man with jet black hair who asks questions from the Holy Prophet (saw) in order to inform the Muslims of their faith. Part of our faith is to know these signs as that Hadith made it very obvious. Read it again. If you wish, I will post it for you if you cannot find it. Let me know if you can't, because I honestly think you're not getting my point here. Take the words of your Nabi (saw) more seriously and don't consider them useless to discuss.
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IAmZamzam
03-07-2013, 05:19 PM
I'm sorry, is Jesus here already or not?

Let me tell you a specialized variation of an Aesop fable. I call it "The Boy Whose Predecessors Cried Wolf". Once upon a time there was a prophecy that someday the wolves would come to the field and snatch away all the sheep. However this prophecy was made a very long time before our story takes place and without fail every single time a generation went by the shepherd boy in the field would see some false alarm from a distance, start getting agitated and shout, "THE WOLVES ARE COMING! THE WOLVES ARE COMING! THE WOLVES ARE ALREADY HERE!" Some people would bite their nails and run to the hills to look; others would disbelieve the boy or even mock him; but each time the wolves didn't come. Then one day the same thing happened again. The new shepherd boy started shouting the same old things. Now let me ask you all: whether or not this new shepherd boy is correct, can any of the townsfolk really be blamed if they go about their daily lives?

The moral of the story: Let the people of all times be equally watchful for wolves--but also equally watchful of shepherd boys.
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Ahmad H
03-07-2013, 09:23 PM
If you won't investigate the Holy Qur'an on this matter, then I have nothing more to say to you. A true Muslim is humble and investigates the truth before they accept or reject it. I read Qur'an, not fables.
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'Abd-al Latif
03-07-2013, 10:45 PM
Is it tea time already? Wow time flies!
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