Worms that will eat their necks

[Scimitar]

Exactly my point bro Al-Mufarridun - It really wasn't... there are 4 very well known passes through the caucuses.

And the land mass beyond the caucuses is such that you can travel "around" the mountainous regions and slip by the ends. Trade routes were established here with guard posts from the neighbouring nations.


EDIT: bro Syed_Z,

with regard to the language of the Georgians - it may have sounded alien to Arabs, but they were most definitely communicating with Mongols and the Chinese, as this is in the historical record also.

But when we compare the language of the Georgians and the Vikings, what we find is that often - even the Vikings couldn't understand each other - their language was crass and overly complicated, as explained in a previous post. Infact, it seemed totally alien to even the Europeans and to those of the Eurasian lands.

Ofcourse, with regard to language, one could mention the African tribes who speak by clicking their tongue. And the language is still spoken today - however, wrong location all together.

The determining factor is realised when we ascertain which of the languages is the most likely to have been that of the G&M.

Also, with regard to the appearance of the Khazars - they appeared a century to early (circa 550ad). Whereas the Vikings, were bang on the nail - during the lifetime of the prophet pbuh.

 

[Al-Mufarridun]

Exactly my point bro Al-Mufarridun - It really wasn't... there are 4 very well known passes through the caucuses.

And the land mass beyond the caucuses is such that you can travel "around" the mountainous regions and slip by the ends. Trade routes were established here with guard posts from the neighbouring nations.

Another question that I have had on my mind is When Dhul-Qarnayn(as) went on his third expedition, did he return back to his original starting point, or did he go north, if he did indeed went north, straight from where he was at the end of his second expedition? I guess if we know that we could probably come to an understanding of where the wall might be.

If you can find Al-Idiris's map, you can see that he believed Dhul-Qarnain(as) went straight north when he reached the eastern point, thus believing that the Yajuj and Majuj are somewhere north of China, perhaps Siberia.

If he did return to his starting point, which we can guess would be somewhere in the near east, and then went up North, then the theory that they might be, have been, locked in the mountains of the scandinavia has some valid points. This is interested for even in Al-Idiris's map you can see what is probably the kjolen mountains and scandinavia.

At the end of the day it is all speculations at the moment.

Allah swt knows best

 

[IAmZamzam]

Al-Mufarridun, the fewer possible openings there are the easier it is on your military. You don't need to have all of your soliders in just one place, standing in front of a single gate. A bottleneck doesn't have to be absolute, especially for an emperor of Darius I's capabilities. This is another reason why it would make all the more sense that Dhu-l-Qarnain would be going up against small barbarian tribes like the Gelae, as mentioned in the Encyclopedia Britannica article on the region of the Caspian Gate.

 

[Scimitar]

Bro Al-Mufarridun - Indeed this is the same train of thought I followed.

Caucuses seems too much like the scapegoat location of convenience and the Mongol invasion kinda settled it for the Arabs - which I think was a little bit stupid.

deceptive coincidence that doesn't even align with the historical record, and is out by a period of 100 years to boot.

And yes, Allah knows best.

bro Yahya, - the Khazars were a century too early to place gthem as the yajuj wa majuj bro. Circa 550AD.

Dream was nearing the end of the Prophet pbuh life. So... that would take the year to where? this is how you should determine it for a start. The process of elimination.

Also, with regard to Derbent and the others around the caucuses: They are not made of Iron and Copper, but brick and mortar, so these walls like derbent and others in the caucuses, cannot be the barrier/wall of Dhul Qarnains effort.

 

[Jedi_Mindset]

Zionist Jews are drinking up sea of galilee they are very much part of Gog and Magog as prophesied by Prophet Muhammad (saw).

Zionist jews are part of the followers of dajjal, the khazars were just the turks i mentioned, and the turks got defeated by the muslims. khazars can be G&M if you look at them via a political perspective. But regarding timeline, superior strenght and that the would be undefeatable is not true.

Israel has been defeated in the past by hizbullah in 2006. US is defeated in iraq, and is now on the run out of afghanistan. The russians have lost from the chechens. So they arent G&M. There are a few groups who destroyed everything they saw and killed everyone they saw. The vikings are on of such groups, and no one had been able to defeat them. And the mongols, no one could defeat them either.

However G&M could easily be behind the crusades, especially the western one.

 

[Scimitar]

They were, by the time Rome left Europe and retracted to its home territiories, The British Isles were already quite populated by Normans and hence, the knights amongst them - who wwere previously pagans had accepted Christianity and led the crusades south.

let's not forget that from the historical record, we are told that the Vikings would ally with the Church and seek the Church's blessings in endeavours pertaining to conquering foreign lands in the name of Christianity, but the interesting thing is - thy did not mind being "ex-comminicated" by the Church...

...This means that they used the Church to further their own ends.

It's all in my previous posts in this thread.

Also, in the Quran: 18:90, "To the extent that when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising upon a nation for which We had not kept any shelter from it."

The Nordic regions and beyond, do not receive shelter from the sun (from night) and the days are particulary long, and some regions are in perpetual daylight for 6 months of the year.

Apply this to the Khazar regions (meschech and tubal) and you see it cannot be them. for they also are subjected to the same climes as the surrounding regions.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Scimitar, I'm not the one saying it was Khazars, remember? I said it was small tribes in the region, whose (Scythian?) descendants represent the Gog and Magog of today. Qur'an 18:96 doesn't specify where the metals went, but it is mentioned in the context of filling up the gap.

 

[Scimitar]

I apologise bro Yahya, I should have been clearer. I was generalising to anyone here who believes that it was the khazar tribe, so they can follow my train of thought/study also.

So many Muslims have sponsored Imran Hosein's theories. And not conducted the research themselves in depth. Instead, I have found that most will only seek to find opinions of scholars, and then post these as evidence - totally ignoring the historical record - which helps to put things into perspective.

Scimi

EDIT:

Qur'an 18:96 doesn't specify where the metals went, but it is mentioned in the context of filling up the gap.

yes, and I often thought about this. For example - were the iron and copper used as foundation for a wall?

Or, was it used to make an impenetrable wall that will not fall, nor can it be scaled - until Allah decides it must fall?

I go with the latter. Simply because if the iron and copper were used for the foundation, then the wall would have to be made of bricks and mortar - which the G&M would most definitely be able to break down, and scale should they have so wished.

If the gap that needed filling was between a narrow mountain pass, then it would not need a foundation. From what we know, they (the G&M) were situated beyond a mountain range - and this will imply that the gap was a narrow sliver of a pass that needed filling.

 

[syed_z]

A quick question, what prevented the Khazars from travelling across either the Caspian sea or the black sea, surely with such a large empire as is depicted on the map, they could at least master a way through these calm seas at this age. Couldn't they also come through the east on land across the Caspian sea? Also why would they be so interested in georgia/armenia/azerbaijan to the extent that they would continuously try and dig there way through for thousand(s) of years?

Asalaam O Alaikum....to answer the second part of your question first...

From what I remember from one of the lectures of Sheikh Imran Hosein that he said.... all the territories in the Middle East, South Asia, North Africa.... were all great civilizations... but Europe specifically Eastern Europe and Nordic Northern Part of Europe were all Wild Tribes..... they never had any civilization like the Chinese Civilization (even they had built Wall of China as a protection against Wild Tribes of Central Asia), The Persian Civilization was a civlization, a famous one, the Byzantium civilization or the Ancient Babylonian Civilization ..... or the Egyptian Civilization etc..... these were all civilizations who had .....their own arts and crafts, farming, houses, culture, and a civilized way of life.....

....but when you go and study Eastern and Northern Europe History, as Sheikh Imran once said "You find nothing but sticks and stones..."

All the tribes Ghuzz, Magyars, Bulgars, Huns, Goths.... these were all NOMADIC WARRIORS who did not settle at one place, they were either fighting each other or attacking civilizations and capturing their loot..... Arthur himself quotes this....

"The collapse of the Hun Empire after Attila’s death left a power-vacuum in Eastern Europe, through which once more, wave after wave of nomadic hordes swept from east to west, prominent among them the Uigurs and Avars. The Khazars during most of this period seemed to be happily occupied with raiding the rich trans-Caucasian regions of Georgia and Armenia, and collecting precious plunder.".....this was when Khazars had not become super power of region they were in the transition phase of doing so..Also the Hunnish empire under Attila the Hun is also named as the "Kingdom of Tents" by Arthur because all of these tribes were nomadic warrior type who wandered and attacked and all they focused on was tents....

Another interesting thing mentioned by Arthur is about the Ghuzz, another tribe like Khazars (you can also see the map above and read the name) who were subjected to them and paid tribute, Ibn Fadlan had to say this about them....

"They are nomads and have houses of felt. They stay for a while in one place and then move on. One can see their tents dispersed here and there all over the place according to nomadic custom. Although they lead a hard life, they behave like donkeys that have lost their way. They have no religion which would link them to God, nor are they guided by reason; they do not worship anything. Instead, they call their headmen lords; when one of them consults his chieftain, he asks: “O lord, what shall I do in this or that matter?” The course of action they adopt is decided by taking counsel among themselves; but when they have decided on a measure and are ready to carry it through, even the humblest and lowliest among them can come and disrupt that decision."

Among the Volga Bulgars, Ibn Fadlan found a strange custom:

When they observe a man who excels through quickwittedness and knowledge, they say: “for this one it is more befitting to serve our Lord.” They seize him, put a rope round his neck and hang him on a tree where he is left until he rots away.

...read the book 13th tribe and also Sheikh Imran's books, then you'll have understanding InshA'Allah...

------------------------------

Now to answer the 1st part of your question that why they never came across from the Eastern Side of Caspian toward Middle East or South Asia or Western side of Black Sea to go to Middle East.... I don't know how to answer.....

But All i can tell you is that the Khazars or similar tribes like them were not Powerful enough to take on the Entire World their Wild Nature does not necessarily mean that they can conquer the whole world and the only thing stopping them is a Wall. The reason their Wild nature is mentioned is to show that they are agents of Fasad .... who will gain power gradually and before the End of the world will rule the world and not immediately after the wall is broken.

 

[syed_z]

Brothers ....

What Brother Scimitar and Al Mafariduin and Jedi and others are not trying to understand is that the Message that Allah (swt) is giving us by mentioning Dhul Qarnayn (a.s) story in the Quran is NOT to tell us that the entire world was being protected by a Wall in the Caucasian Mountain Range 13 centuries ago......and the immediately after break up of the Wall will create disorder in the entire world

....What this story is informing and it is mentioned for us to understand that the Wall would be broken and the sign of the breaking of this Wall will usher the age of the release of Gog and Magog .... It is not mentioned for us Muslims to find after the break up of Dariyal Gorge as to which Nation took over the entire world ? ..Which we obviously find none.....but in case even if we do find How do we really know they are Gog and Magog till we enter the 21st century ?

...and had it not been for our time, Muslims would not have understood this subject completely....the Muslims in the past found this Wall of Dariyal Gorge to be the Wall of Dhul Qarnayn that was the only step they had done on their part .... in our age we can understand this subject further by finding a nation who is causing Fasad in the modern world ....

Unfortunately it is the Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews who support Zionism..... who are the Eastern European Jews? and where did they come from as Eastern Europeans did not descend from Shem one of the sons of Noah (a.s) so how did they become jews? Why are they claiming the Holy Land ?

Why the Elite among the Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews with European Zionist Christians are trying to establish Zionist state in the Middle East and greater israel ?

the answer to all the questions link with Khazar Kingdom accepting Judaism at one point of time in history, the only Non Semetic tribe to accept Judaism, with absolutely no plan to conquer Palestine until their descendants enter the modern age and then work strenuously towards it to achieve it backed by European Christian Zionists the best candidate for them would be Pre Christian Vikings who after Christianizing initiated Crusades....

 

[IAmZamzam]

It seems to me that there isn't a single historical fact here that needs saying which I haven't already said.

 

[syed_z]

he khazars were just the turks i mentioned, and the turks got defeated by the muslims. khazars can be G&M if you look at them via a political perspective. But regarding timeline, superior strenght and that the would be undefeatable is not true.

Arthur Quotes this...

“As to the Khazars,” an Arab chronicler writes, “they are to the north of the inhabited earth towards the 7th clime, having over their heads the constellation of the Plough. Their land is cold and wet. Accordingly their complexions are white, their eyes blue, their hair flowing and predominantly reddish, their bodies large and their natures cold. Their general aspect is wild.”

Lastly, the Arab geographer Istakhri, one of the main Arab sources, has this to say: “The Khazars do not resemble the Turks. They are blackhaired,
and are of two kinds, one called the Kara-Khazars, [Black Khazars] who are swarthy verging on deep black as if they were a kind of Indian, and a white kind [Ak-Khazars], who are strikingly handsome.”

From the fifth century onward, many of these westward-bound tribes were called by the generic name of “Turks”. The term is also supposed to be of Chinese origin (apparently derived from the name of a hill) and was subsequently used to refer to all tribes who spoke languages with certain common characteristics— the “Turkic” language group. Thus the term Turk, in the sense in which it was used by mediaeval writers— and often also by modern ethnologists— refers primarily to language and not to race. In this sense the Huns and Khazars were “Turkic” people.


---------------------------------


The above quotes are mentioned to show that there were White Skinned Blue Eyed Eastern European Khazars whose later descendants were found in large numbers in Poland, Russia, Hungary etc.... they assimilated themselves within White European people there and you can just look at the pictures of Top leaders in USA govt and Israeli Govt (follow the link i posted earlier)... they are descendants of those same European Asheknazi Jews.

Israel has been defeated in the past by hizbullah in 2006. US is defeated in iraq, and is now on the run out of afghanistan. The russians have lost from the chechens.

Brother Jedi your missing the whole point of this Subject of Gog and Magog.... the words of Hadith ...

"....Allah will reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from among My servants such people against whom none will be able to fight.." (Sahih Muslim)

This does NOT mean that Muslims will not be able to fight Gog and Magog, what this means is that Muslims will NOT be able to completely defeat them, conquer them and make them subject to their rule.....like How Muslims fought and defeated and conquered Persian Empire, Byzantium Empire, Hindu Civilization etc

But they could not defeat Khazars and subject them.... and even the Normans and Franks (Pre Christian Vikings) their hordes were defeated several times by Salahuddin and Nuruddin but never were they able to subject them to their own authority.....they fled but only to return in the face of British Empire....

Hezbollah defeating Israel and Russia getting defeated in Afghanistan is similar to Umar (r.a) army fighting Khazars but not completely taking them over.

Hope you understand...

 

[syed_z]

It seems to me that there isn't a single historical fact here that needs saying which I haven't already said.

I am sorry not trying to ignore you but can you please be more specific what do you mean ?

 

[IAmZamzam]

As a matter of fact…it turns out there is one more fact left.

Ladies and gentlemen…jackpot.

I’ve just stumbled upon a place where I found the names “Darius”, “Alexander [the Great]”, and the Tapuri tribe (which lived around the Caspian Gate, if you’ll remember), all in the same place (along with the word “Scythian”, although I don’t know if that last part means anything). Furthermore it’s in the same context as the mention of an almost impassable way—and the Caspian Gate.

This is from page 245 of "Annals of the World" by James Ussher, which I found through Google Books. I don't know if I'm allowed to link directly to copyrighted material so I'll just quote it here:

[According to Plutarch] from there Alexander moved two and a half miles through an almost impassable way. When he had gone almost another four miles, Phrataphernes, the governer of Hyrcania and Parthia, met him and surrendered to Alexander, along with all those who had fled to him after the death of Darius. Alexander graciously received them all. He next came to a town called Arvae, where Craterus rejoined him, having subdued all the countries which he had passed through. With him he brought Phradates, or Autophradates, the governor of the tribe of the Tapuri, whom Alexander restored to his government again and sent back home…Clitarchus said that Thalestris came to Alexander from the Caspian Gates and the Thermodon River….

Even though that's a different Darius being spoken of up there I still think it's fairly obvious that if the above passage doesn’t tie every single detail of the case together in a way that even Agatha Christie would blush at (for anyone who’s been paying attention, at least), nothing ever could. This not only explains (along with the weird confusion ancient people made between Alexander the Great and the two-horned ram from Daniel) how the whole Alexander/Dhul-Qarnain thing started, it also removes the last shred of doubt as to who the true Dhul-Qarnain was, where he went, and who he fought. Darius I was mixed up not only with Cyrus but also with Alexander. The Persians simply didn't know one of their kings from another, it seems. It's obvious that there was a reason they had to be mixed up, and that the Caspian Gate and the Tapuri had to come into the picture as well.

Gog and Magog was The Tapuri. Their descendants are apparently some kind of Scythian line somewhere. I'll grant that it's conceivable that some second enemy was also involved which I haven't found in this research and there was indeed a literal second tribe.

 

[Karl]

Salaam ... the AntiChrist is an Individual and not a race....

I mean Anti Christ as a force of evil by people. As Jesus (PUBH) was a man and not the son of God so therefore not Christ so there cannot be an Anti Christ ie a human son of Satan.

 

[syed_z]

Gog and Magog was The Tapuri. Their descendants are apparently some kind of Scythian line somewhere.

Asalaam O Alaikum Yahya...

See what I believe we're trying to do here by discussing the subject is not to find Who Gog and Magog are within historical perspective only. But what we're trying to find is if we're living in the age of Gog and Magog presently then who were they in the past ? Is there any link between them and the modern Rulers spreading corruption in the lands around the world ?

So the discussion is not whether they are Magyars, Bulgars, Huns or Scythians or Khazars.

If you can prove it to me that Tapuri what your referring to were Gog and Magog or Gog, then can you tell me exactly if the rulers in the modern world are descended from them ?

Because the ruling families in the modern world in our age like Rothchilds or similar ruling elite families and their Eastern European Ashkenazi Jewish agents who have infiltrated the upper echelons of the Western Governments and USA/Israeli Govt, whose descent can easily be traced back to the Khazar Wild Tribe which lived in the Caucuses mountain ranges (where kings built wall to protect against them) which accepted Judaism, assimilated within Eastern European Populations in the later ages.

Can you prove the same about Tapuri ?

 

[syed_z]

Quote Originally Posted by syed_z View Post
Salaam ... the AntiChrist is an Individual and not a race....
I mean Anti Christ as a force of evil by people. As Jesus (PUBH) was a man and not the son of God so therefore not Christ so there cannot be an Anti Christ ie a human son of Satan.

Yes I do agree with you brother Karl.... no doubt that Gog and Magog are foot soldiers of Dajjal...they are his force from among mankind....like how Satan has his soldiers from among invisible being...

 

[Jedi_Mindset]

Syed_Z the current ones who are spreading chaos in the middle east are the romans (The americans, NATO). but i think we can agree on one point, that their invasions are engineered by G&M.

 

[Independent]

the romans

On what grounds do you continue to refer to people today as 'Romans', except that you need this term to fit in with your prophecy interpretations?

Half of Europe was never even conquered by Rome, including all of Scandanavia and Germany. Americans are descended from immigrants from these territories, as well as Africa and many other states around the world, none of which were ever Roman.

If Americans are Roman, why aren't Arabs Phoenician, Assyrian, Hittites etc?

 

[Jedi_Mindset]

On what grounds do you continue to refer to people today as 'Romans', except that you need this term to fit in with your prophecy interpretations?

Half of Europe was never even conquered by Rome, including all of Scandanavia and Germany. Americans are descended from immigrants from these territories, as well as Africa and many other states around the world, none of which were ever Roman.

If Americans are Roman, why aren't Arabs Phoenician, Assyrian, Hittites etc?

Romans - ar-rum, litteraly arabic translation, romans are europeans. Americans are europeans, they migrated there a few centuries ago, but that doesnt change their identity. White people in general are referred to as romans by the arabs. I am not referring to the roman empires, but you should look at the word 'roman' itself, the romans were europeans.

Arabs are Arabs, they always lived there.

NATO today is a new european empire, the countries they form are actually one military indutrial complex, they are united in their goals, and they share the same idenity. Turkey belongs to them, because turkey belonged to them in past, hence it is in NATO. Interesting isnt it?