Homosexuality; Nature or Nurture
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I personally don't think that anybody is born gay. I believe that people are influenced by satan in becoming gay. Homosexuality is an abomination to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala that He destroyed the population of Prophet Lut (Alayhi Salaam). That is a lesson for mankind for eternity. I also believe that with God in one's life and with prayer and du'a people can overcome this disease, yes I believe it is a disease than anything else. People who are long term gay are people who do not fight their desires but easily give in to temptation.
Iceee
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Salaam.
My teacher gave me this example;
Let's say a lesbian couple adopted a baby girl and they lived secluded from the cities and stayed in a cottage or a small town where not many people knew them. The girl as she grows up with two females taking care of her, doesn't she have a choice of whether or not she likes a guy or girl.
Nature: She is born straight.
Nurture: She was raised in a lesbian household
I don't know what to say to my teacher about that.
Alaikkum As'alaam
In that particular scenario the child could grow up as wither as 'straight' or a 'lesbian'. She could adopt her natural state and marry a guy or she could be influenced by her environment and upbringing. Both reality is possible.
Iceee
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Her surroundings say it is okay to be a lesbian which is the society.
If she marries a guy, she is born straight right?
Hulk
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The act of homosexuality is a choice, however whether one can be born with tendencies inclining to the same gender I don't know. Perhaps some are born with those tendencies whereas some "switch sides". Whatever it is, to act upon those tendencies is by choice.
Iceee
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Choice?
"Why would you choose to be something that can get you made fun of, tortured, shunned or even killed? It's not a choice."
Iceee
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I can live with that summary.
Btw I hope you are asking us to do your homework!
Not homework, I need help debating with my teacher on Monday.
Worth a chunk of marks.
Hulk
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read again what I said, I said the act itself is a choice just like if I slapped someone out of anger it is an action which I chose to do. why were you speaking in quotes though?
Iceee
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What do you mean by, "act itself is a choice?"
There was I think an old thread about a study that says gay parents will most likely have gay kids I suppose since they are a gay couple they can't have biological children so they children are either from a previous straight marriage or they're adopted a very slim chance for genetics to be involved but I think it'sneither nature nor nurture. In the example your teacer provided you'd have to discuss both scenarios: is it the probability of being gay because of her parents influence or is it because she has never met a man in her life and might switch positions if she had or her being straight regardless of her parents influence and not meeting any man at all ? or being gay despite meeting a man or maybe she doesnt know that she is straight she thinks that this is social norm judging from living with her parents and being isolated from society?. If she is straight and neither her parents being gay or not seeing another member of the opposite gender influenced her then it's nature. If she is gay because that's all she witnessed since she was a baby then it"s nurture.
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muslimah bird
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I understand Allah is just and will not punish a person if he/she was already created in that manner so the pen would be lifted up for such person just as it is lifted for an insane person.
No body forces you to indulge in any act it's completely your choice with the exception of circumstantial cases but when do any act it is your choice even if there were driving forces motives and temptations it all boils down to whether you choose or allow that you do so. In relation with homosexuality no one argues that it's a feeling that are involuntary and out of the hand but transforming those feelings into action hence homosexuality the act is what a person will be held accountable for.
Are you serious? Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala destroyed a whole community due to homosexuality. Are you saying that He creates them like that then tells them that it is a sin, then destroys them when they perform the act?
sister herb
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Salam alaykum
I don´t understand why kind of matters as homosexuality cause so much worry and discussion with muslims. If they make sin together, it is they sin. We should think more how much we make sin, not how much others do.
If in Europe or in the USA some non-muslim communities are accepting them as marriage, what it means to us? Nothing.
^o)
I don´t understand why kind of matters as homosexuality cause so much worry and discussion with muslims. If they make sin together, it is they sin. We should think more how much we make sin, not how much others do.
If in Europe or in the USA some non-muslim communities are accepting them as marriage, what it means to us? Nothing.
^o)
'Abd-al Latif
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Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah
saws1 said:Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian. (Agreed upon).
Since every human being is born upon 'fitra', every belief besides this is a complete lie. This mytical belief that people are born as homosexuals is just an excuse to fool people to accept it.
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'Abd-al Latif
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It is a duty upon you as a Muslim that you enjoin the good and forbid the evil.
The Messenger :saws1: said if you can stop an evil (whatever evil it may be) with your hands then you must do so, if you cannot do that then you must speak out against it, and if you cannot do that then you must hate it in your heart.
Shaykh Ibn Uhaymeen (rahimullah) added to this and said that if one cannot even hate an evil in one's heart then what emaan does one have?
As-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
There is a side to humans, which is the Nafs al-Ammarah which is the "self that incites to evil". This side of humans is the aspect of us which enjoins us to do wrong. This means the lustful acts as well as other sins. Everyone has this, whether they are free of sin or not. It is up to Allah how He protects them from it. Hazrat Yusuf (as) admitted that every human has this:
12:53 ‘And I do not hold my own self to be free from weakness; for, the soul is surely prone to enjoin evil, save that whereon my Lord has mercy. Surely, my Lord is Most Forgiving, Merciful.’
Everyone has this weakness. Homosexuals do this act because they allowed their lower nature to take control of them. I would think that homosexuality is a natural thing, but so is murder, fornication, stealing, etc. All of these are evils which are natural, but they are not to be done by anyone because they are wrong. We are born upon Fitrah, which means our natural inclination to do right and everything which Allah has commanded us to do. But, we could fall into our darker side and do what is opposite to this. Homosexuality is merely one of these evils.
let's delve further, we make tools because that is how humans developed, that goes for war. But, if we make tools for war such as bombs, or even nuclear bombs, then we should not do so and we should avoid that. In fact, bombs are forbidden altogether since punishment by fire is only allowed for Allah Himself. My argument here is that although homosexuality can be argued as something natural, it is not something which we humans ought to express or do. We can go against our natural Fitrah by following our desires, but these desires should be suppressed. It does not mean we are born this way, but we simply think that what we feel is right no matter what, and no one should say anything against it.
Western society promotes gay freedom because they have no concept of what is morally right. The moral decadence in the West is astounding when you observe the lifestyles of these people. On the one hand, they are religious by worshiping a Prophet of God as if he was literally the son of God, and they think he wiped all of their sins away. On the other hand, they move away from religion and consider themselves rationally independent of God and think every law they can think of to satisfy their desires is alright because they do not acknowledge that there is a God anymore. Thus, their move away from religion is reflected in this homosexual syndrome. There is no propaganda to develop homosexual people, but in fact, the people themselves have felt these homosexual desires and they feel that they should observe it because they think suppressing desires is wrong.
Granted, perhaps there are some men who do not seem to find women attractive, and women who do not find men attractive. This seems to be my problem with the issue, and I do not know if there is any easy solution to that. I have moved past the idea that it could be natural. It happens in the animal kingdom, thus it would certainly happen amongst humans since in our own way we also have animal tendencies. But this is why there is Nafs al-Ammarah, the self that incites to evil. It is our animal nature which we must suppress.
Interestingly, Freud also observed this and his ideas for controlling animal urges is used by the West to steer people into the consumerism ideals so that they do not endanger themselves by becoming violent and animalistic. They moved towards materialism to satisfy their desires willingly. But, their materialism has grown so much that it has dwindled this barrier between animal and human, so now the West keeps trying to find ways to become more animal-like while retaining their human qualities. Freud had no solution, but he was aware of a problem. Islam already knew of this problem from the very beginning. As humans changed over the past thousands of years, so did religion to control this problem. islam has the only solution, which is that prayer should be the remedy for all ills.
Add to that, fasting removes sexual ills, eating less, exercising, prayer and seeking refuge with Allah often from Satan's incitements. Thus, homosexuality requires prayer to Allah for its control, and then further actions to take steps to suppress this urge. It is the sinful act of sex between people of the same sex which is wrong, but the desires itself, as long as they are controlled, may not pose a harm. This is like thinking of adultery, but not committing it. The Muslim Ummah is exempt from the sin of evil thoughts, as long as they do not become action.
There is no doubt that homosexuality is wrong, so I hope no one thinks I am saying it is right, because it isn't. Homosexuality was a relatively new thing during Lut's (as) era. His people committed that act. However, it is wrong to assume that that was the only reason why they were destroyed. They rejected a Prophet of Allah, thus they were destroyed. People can commit as many evil acts as they want, but Allah destroys them when they reject a Prophet of His, because the people are definitely not going to reform if they are not positively influenced by the most positive figure that can exist for them. A Prophet of Allah is a last resort before people get punished for their sins. Allah does not punish unless a Prophet is brought into the world to reform the people. Therefore, it was not homosexuality alone which made the people of the cities of Lut (as) perish. Their acts were heinous, but Allah sent a Prophet as a last resort so the people could reform themselves. When they do not have any chance of reform, namely by mocking, rejecting and abusing a Prophet of Allah and threatening to kill him, then they are definitely destroyed by Allah.
Again, I will reiterate, homosexuality may just be a natural urge, thus people are deceived by their own natural urges thinking they are born with this urge and so they cannot be any different. Allah has made it crystal clear in the Holy Qur'an that this act itself was started over time by people:
7:80 And We sent Lot — when he said to his people, ‘Do you commit an abomination such as no one in the world ever did before you?
7:81 ‘You approach men with lust instead of women. Nay, you are a people who exceed all bounds.’
If it was so natural, then why did no one in the world ever commit this sin before the people of Lut (as)? This act was perpetrated, and then propagated as a good act amongst these people who then influenced the rest of their society that it was ok to do it. The next verse says:
7:82 And the answer of his people was no other than that they said, ‘Turn them out of your town, for they are men who would keep pure.’
Thus, anyone who went against the ideal of those people in Lut's (as) time, they were ostracized and social outcasts. This is the same thing with this era. We see now that Muslims and even Christians who speak against gay marriage are considered outcasts and are not "progressive" people who can't seem to "modernize" themselves. They are obviously saying that our views are not socially acceptable to them. In fact, if we are against the idea of gay marriage in this society, I hear some who say that "if they aren't happy with what we say in our society, then maybe they should just leave. They aren't welcome here if they can't accept our ways." I honestly hear this from people.
Fine, these people here accept that there are people who observe gay behavior. But does that stop freedom of speech because we have a voice? See the hypocrisy? All we can do is pray against this wicked behavior of theirs when our arguing with them reaches an irrational stage. I will quote the Holy Qur'an below about this evil, and you will see that Lut (as) resorted to prayer when he found he could not argue with the foolish anymore:
29:28 And We sent Lot; he said to his people, ‘You commit an abomination which none among mankind has ever committed before you.
29:29 ‘Do you indeed come lustfully to men and cut off the highway for travellers? And you commit abomination in your meetings!’ But the only answer of his people was that they said, ‘Bring upon us the punishment of Allah if thou speakest the truth.’
29:30 He said, ‘Help me, my Lord, against the wicked people.’
27:54 And remember Lot, when he said to his people, ‘Do you commit abomination while you see the evil thereof ?
27:55 What! do you approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are indeed an ignorant people.’
27:56 But the answer of his people was naught save that they said, ‘Drive out Lot’s family from your city. They are a people who would keep clean.’
27:57 So We saved him and his family, except his wife; her We decreed to be of those who stayed behind.
In fact, another part of the Holy Qur'an explains even further that those people of Lut (as) left their wives and went lusting after men instead of their wives. So they CHOSE to be evil and observe this act of homosexuality. Keep in mind that a Hadith of the Holy Prophet (saw) said that if a man lusted after a woman, then he should go to his wife instead and observe his feelings for her instead rather than allow himself to commit such an evil. He spoke of women, so what of these people who instead seek men rather than women?
26:160 The people of Lot rejected the Messengers,
26:161 When their brother Lot said to them, ‘Will you not become righteous?
26:162 ‘Surely, I am unto you a Messenger, faithful to my trust.
26:163 ‘So fear Allah, and obey me.
26:164 ‘And I ask of you no reward for it. My reward is only with the Lord of the worlds.
26:165 ‘Do you, of all peoples, approach males,
26:166 ‘And leave your wives whom your Lord has created for you? Nay, you are a people who transgress.’
26:167 They said, ‘If thou desist not, O Lot, thou wilt surely be one of the banished ones.’
26:168 He said, ‘Certainly I hate your practice.
26:169 ‘My Lord, save me and my family from what they do.’
This shows that in our hearts, we must always hate this practice of homosexuality, because it is an unacceptable and unnatural act itself. The desire itself may grow out of tendencies in our self that incites to evil, and perhaps that is the only thing natural about it like i said earlier like murder theft and so on, but this does not mean that we should do it. It is wrong nevertheless, and this evil thought arising from our desires should be kept locked up and hidden away.
The only thing we can do after arguing about it and being frustrated at the lack of progress, is to seek Allah's help through patience and prayer. We can ask Allah to help us against these evil people and to save our families from them so that they do not fall into the sin they are promoting. The gay parades definitely don't help.
May Allah save us all. Ameen.
There is a side to humans, which is the Nafs al-Ammarah which is the "self that incites to evil". This side of humans is the aspect of us which enjoins us to do wrong. This means the lustful acts as well as other sins. Everyone has this, whether they are free of sin or not. It is up to Allah how He protects them from it. Hazrat Yusuf (as) admitted that every human has this:
12:53 ‘And I do not hold my own self to be free from weakness; for, the soul is surely prone to enjoin evil, save that whereon my Lord has mercy. Surely, my Lord is Most Forgiving, Merciful.’
Everyone has this weakness. Homosexuals do this act because they allowed their lower nature to take control of them. I would think that homosexuality is a natural thing, but so is murder, fornication, stealing, etc. All of these are evils which are natural, but they are not to be done by anyone because they are wrong. We are born upon Fitrah, which means our natural inclination to do right and everything which Allah has commanded us to do. But, we could fall into our darker side and do what is opposite to this. Homosexuality is merely one of these evils.
let's delve further, we make tools because that is how humans developed, that goes for war. But, if we make tools for war such as bombs, or even nuclear bombs, then we should not do so and we should avoid that. In fact, bombs are forbidden altogether since punishment by fire is only allowed for Allah Himself. My argument here is that although homosexuality can be argued as something natural, it is not something which we humans ought to express or do. We can go against our natural Fitrah by following our desires, but these desires should be suppressed. It does not mean we are born this way, but we simply think that what we feel is right no matter what, and no one should say anything against it.
Western society promotes gay freedom because they have no concept of what is morally right. The moral decadence in the West is astounding when you observe the lifestyles of these people. On the one hand, they are religious by worshiping a Prophet of God as if he was literally the son of God, and they think he wiped all of their sins away. On the other hand, they move away from religion and consider themselves rationally independent of God and think every law they can think of to satisfy their desires is alright because they do not acknowledge that there is a God anymore. Thus, their move away from religion is reflected in this homosexual syndrome. There is no propaganda to develop homosexual people, but in fact, the people themselves have felt these homosexual desires and they feel that they should observe it because they think suppressing desires is wrong.
Granted, perhaps there are some men who do not seem to find women attractive, and women who do not find men attractive. This seems to be my problem with the issue, and I do not know if there is any easy solution to that. I have moved past the idea that it could be natural. It happens in the animal kingdom, thus it would certainly happen amongst humans since in our own way we also have animal tendencies. But this is why there is Nafs al-Ammarah, the self that incites to evil. It is our animal nature which we must suppress.
Interestingly, Freud also observed this and his ideas for controlling animal urges is used by the West to steer people into the consumerism ideals so that they do not endanger themselves by becoming violent and animalistic. They moved towards materialism to satisfy their desires willingly. But, their materialism has grown so much that it has dwindled this barrier between animal and human, so now the West keeps trying to find ways to become more animal-like while retaining their human qualities. Freud had no solution, but he was aware of a problem. Islam already knew of this problem from the very beginning. As humans changed over the past thousands of years, so did religion to control this problem. islam has the only solution, which is that prayer should be the remedy for all ills.
Add to that, fasting removes sexual ills, eating less, exercising, prayer and seeking refuge with Allah often from Satan's incitements. Thus, homosexuality requires prayer to Allah for its control, and then further actions to take steps to suppress this urge. It is the sinful act of sex between people of the same sex which is wrong, but the desires itself, as long as they are controlled, may not pose a harm. This is like thinking of adultery, but not committing it. The Muslim Ummah is exempt from the sin of evil thoughts, as long as they do not become action.
There is no doubt that homosexuality is wrong, so I hope no one thinks I am saying it is right, because it isn't. Homosexuality was a relatively new thing during Lut's (as) era. His people committed that act. However, it is wrong to assume that that was the only reason why they were destroyed. They rejected a Prophet of Allah, thus they were destroyed. People can commit as many evil acts as they want, but Allah destroys them when they reject a Prophet of His, because the people are definitely not going to reform if they are not positively influenced by the most positive figure that can exist for them. A Prophet of Allah is a last resort before people get punished for their sins. Allah does not punish unless a Prophet is brought into the world to reform the people. Therefore, it was not homosexuality alone which made the people of the cities of Lut (as) perish. Their acts were heinous, but Allah sent a Prophet as a last resort so the people could reform themselves. When they do not have any chance of reform, namely by mocking, rejecting and abusing a Prophet of Allah and threatening to kill him, then they are definitely destroyed by Allah.
Again, I will reiterate, homosexuality may just be a natural urge, thus people are deceived by their own natural urges thinking they are born with this urge and so they cannot be any different. Allah has made it crystal clear in the Holy Qur'an that this act itself was started over time by people:
7:80 And We sent Lot — when he said to his people, ‘Do you commit an abomination such as no one in the world ever did before you?
7:81 ‘You approach men with lust instead of women. Nay, you are a people who exceed all bounds.’
If it was so natural, then why did no one in the world ever commit this sin before the people of Lut (as)? This act was perpetrated, and then propagated as a good act amongst these people who then influenced the rest of their society that it was ok to do it. The next verse says:
7:82 And the answer of his people was no other than that they said, ‘Turn them out of your town, for they are men who would keep pure.’
Thus, anyone who went against the ideal of those people in Lut's (as) time, they were ostracized and social outcasts. This is the same thing with this era. We see now that Muslims and even Christians who speak against gay marriage are considered outcasts and are not "progressive" people who can't seem to "modernize" themselves. They are obviously saying that our views are not socially acceptable to them. In fact, if we are against the idea of gay marriage in this society, I hear some who say that "if they aren't happy with what we say in our society, then maybe they should just leave. They aren't welcome here if they can't accept our ways." I honestly hear this from people.
Fine, these people here accept that there are people who observe gay behavior. But does that stop freedom of speech because we have a voice? See the hypocrisy? All we can do is pray against this wicked behavior of theirs when our arguing with them reaches an irrational stage. I will quote the Holy Qur'an below about this evil, and you will see that Lut (as) resorted to prayer when he found he could not argue with the foolish anymore:
29:28 And We sent Lot; he said to his people, ‘You commit an abomination which none among mankind has ever committed before you.
29:29 ‘Do you indeed come lustfully to men and cut off the highway for travellers? And you commit abomination in your meetings!’ But the only answer of his people was that they said, ‘Bring upon us the punishment of Allah if thou speakest the truth.’
29:30 He said, ‘Help me, my Lord, against the wicked people.’
27:54 And remember Lot, when he said to his people, ‘Do you commit abomination while you see the evil thereof ?
27:55 What! do you approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are indeed an ignorant people.’
27:56 But the answer of his people was naught save that they said, ‘Drive out Lot’s family from your city. They are a people who would keep clean.’
27:57 So We saved him and his family, except his wife; her We decreed to be of those who stayed behind.
In fact, another part of the Holy Qur'an explains even further that those people of Lut (as) left their wives and went lusting after men instead of their wives. So they CHOSE to be evil and observe this act of homosexuality. Keep in mind that a Hadith of the Holy Prophet (saw) said that if a man lusted after a woman, then he should go to his wife instead and observe his feelings for her instead rather than allow himself to commit such an evil. He spoke of women, so what of these people who instead seek men rather than women?
26:160 The people of Lot rejected the Messengers,
26:161 When their brother Lot said to them, ‘Will you not become righteous?
26:162 ‘Surely, I am unto you a Messenger, faithful to my trust.
26:163 ‘So fear Allah, and obey me.
26:164 ‘And I ask of you no reward for it. My reward is only with the Lord of the worlds.
26:165 ‘Do you, of all peoples, approach males,
26:166 ‘And leave your wives whom your Lord has created for you? Nay, you are a people who transgress.’
26:167 They said, ‘If thou desist not, O Lot, thou wilt surely be one of the banished ones.’
26:168 He said, ‘Certainly I hate your practice.
26:169 ‘My Lord, save me and my family from what they do.’
This shows that in our hearts, we must always hate this practice of homosexuality, because it is an unacceptable and unnatural act itself. The desire itself may grow out of tendencies in our self that incites to evil, and perhaps that is the only thing natural about it like i said earlier like murder theft and so on, but this does not mean that we should do it. It is wrong nevertheless, and this evil thought arising from our desires should be kept locked up and hidden away.
The only thing we can do after arguing about it and being frustrated at the lack of progress, is to seek Allah's help through patience and prayer. We can ask Allah to help us against these evil people and to save our families from them so that they do not fall into the sin they are promoting. The gay parades definitely don't help.
May Allah save us all. Ameen.
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