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Eddy
07-26-2020, 08:50 PM
Hi all, I'm new in this forum and this is my first post.I grew up a Christian but I'm now more of an agnostic.All my morals and culture come from Christianity but I have always been in doubt about the existence of God.
I like to challenge parts of the religion that don't make sense to me.
Muslims believe in the same God (Allah) but they don't believe in Jesus as God nor in the Trinity.
I often read Christians and Islamic apologists criticizing each other's religions.What I do is a take those critics and try to find out if there is any truth in them.If somebody criticizes Islam I try to reach Islamic sources to find out if the critic is valid.
This next challenge originated by listening to a video from an ex muslim who calls himself "(name removed)".
He claims the Quran is full of scientific errors and this is one of them.
He refers to Quran 36 verse 38 specifically.
Here is the english translation:Quran 36

37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

There are two different interpretations as far as I know.
Verse 38 refers to the daily sunset and the sun prostrating waiting for permission to rise again
orVerse 38 refers to the sun going into the end of its life and therefore the end of human life (resurrection day).

I found a hadith which seems to clearly show this whole set describes a 24-hour cycle (day and night) and verse 38 "stopping point" refers to the daily Sun stop after sunset (where the sun prostrates beneath the Throne) as mentioned in the same hadith.
The hadith continues:"then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it."So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

This is the hadith I'm talking about:

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

Does this proves the Quran has scientific errors and this is one of them?
How else you interpret this passage?
Prophet Muhammad could have commited scientific errors but not Allah and this verse is from Allah although the explanation is from Muhammad.

Challenging a religion to find the truth is not welcome in certain forums so if that is the case in this forum please disregard my whole post and I will not pursue the discussion.
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'Abdullah
07-26-2020, 09:30 PM
Hi Eddy,
Welcome to the forum & thanks for asking us to explain these so called scientific errors. Please see video below which debunked all the claims Ridhwan has made in his video:


Hope you find this helpful in your search for the truth.

All the best and feel free to post more question if you have about Islam.
Reply

Good brother
07-26-2020, 09:30 PM
Welcome to the forum

No, quran doesn't have errors.


قَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى ‏{‏وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَهَا}‏‏"
Transliteration
Washshamsu tajree limustaqarrin laha
Sahih International
And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

1- He Almighty says "the sun runs" not moves or walks which is a clear sign that the sun moves in high speed. Today, our scientists say that the Sun moves say that the Sun moves at an estimated speed of about 225 km per second (140 miles per second)
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/AngelaChan.shtml

2- If we examine the sun's complex orbit and the course of horses running during race , we would find it similar to that of ships & sun -- For them God used the word "run"


sun 1 -

run2Bsun2Bhorse 1 -
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52317289/5...nd-Down-Motion
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...50504/abstract


http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/l...ion/solar.html

3- We find modern researches on stars talking about "Star Streaming" as if they are like a running river:

stream ( Type: verb - Domain: non-thematic ) : flow, run or flow
اِنْسابَ - جَرَى


http://www.almaany.com/home.php?lang..._word=2&dspl=0
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...star-streaming
sun2Borbit 1 -





4 - Although God told us about sun's "mustaqar=resting time/place" in the quran 1400 years ago, we find modern scientists talking about "the solar apex" and define it as
" the direction that the Sun travels with respect to the Local Standard of Rest" In lay terms, it's the "target" within the Milky Way that the Sun appears to be "chasing" as it orbits the galaxy.
everything solarapex 1 -

everything solar -
http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/flash_html.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_apex

5- Science also tells us that the Sun will come to an end:
"The blazing ball of hot hydrogen that warms our planet and provides energy for life won't be around forever. '

Source: http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1...ime/index.html

"The Sun will gradually die. As a star's core crashes inwards, it eventually becomes hot enough to ignite another of its constituent atoms, helium. Helium atoms fuse together to form carbon. When the helium supply runs out, the centre collapses again and the atmosphere inflates. The Sun isn't massive enough to fully re-ignite its core for a third time. So it goes on expanding, shedding its atmosphere in a series of bursts. The dying core eventually forms a white dwarf - a spherical diamond the size of the Earth, made of carbon and oxygen. From this point on the Sun will gradually fade away, becoming dimmer and dimmer until its light is finally snuffed out."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/s...th/index.shtml

Now we can realize quran superiority over all arrogant haters and man-made books as it's the word of God Almighty, The Most High .

http://comparativreligion.blogspot.c...r-refuted.html
Reply

Good brother
07-26-2020, 09:35 PM
Regarding the hadith:

"It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم لأَبِي ذَرٍّ حِينَ غَرَبَتِ الشَّمْسُ ‏"‏ تَدْرِي أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَإِنَّهَا تَذْهَبُ حَتَّى تَسْجُدَ تَحْتَ الْعَرْشِ، فَتَسْتَأْذِنَ فَيُؤْذَنَ لَهَا، وَيُوشِكُ أَنْ تَسْجُدَ فَلاَ يُقْبَلَ مِنْهَا، وَتَسْتَأْذِنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَنَ لَهَا، يُقَالُ لَهَا ارْجِعِي مِنْ حَيْثُ جِئْتِ‏.‏ فَتَطْلُعُ مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا، فَذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى ‏{‏وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَهَا ذَلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ ‏}‏‏"‏‏.

The ayah:
http://quran.com/36/38

The sun prostrates ?!


The sun to prostrate doesn't need to be human-like with head and 4 limbs. It submits to God in its own way.
http://quran.com/17/44
تُسَبِّحُ لَهُ السَّمَاوَاتُ السَّبْعُ وَالْأَرْضُ وَمَن فِيهِنَّ ۚ وَإِن مِّن شَيْءٍ إِلَّا يُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِهِ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تَفْقَهُونَ تَسْبِيحَهُمْ ۗ إِنَّهُ كَانَ حَلِيمًا غَفُورًا
“The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [Allah] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving.” (Qur’an 17:44)

The entire creation of Allah is engaged in worshipping and glorifying Allah, but each has its own separate way of doing it that has already been taught to it just like human beings who have been told how to do their salah and tasbih. Therefore, taking the prostration (sajdah) of the sun to mean that it can take effect only when it places its forehead on some floor like a human being would not be correct. Thus, the truth of the matter turns out to be that the sun at every moment while moving on its orbit keeps offering prostration before Allah the Almighty and keeps seeking permission to move ahead - and it needs no pause or break to make prostration or seek permission.

The word used in the hadeeth is "تسجد" The verb "Sajada= prostrate"has 3 meanings as in the waseet arabic dictionary:
سَجَدَ سَجَدَ ُ سجودًا : خضع وتطامن .
و سَجَدَ وضَع جبهتَهُ على الأَرضِ .
فهو ساجِدٌ . والجمع : سُجَّدٌ ، وسُجُودٌ .
و سَجَدَ السفينةُ للريح : أَطاعَتْها ومالت بميلِها .
المعجم: المعجم الوسيط -

http://www.almaany.com/home.php?lang..._word=2&dspl=0
i.e:
1- put his foehead on the ground
2- submit
3- Obey ( like how ship is driven by the wind)

In Islam everything in the state of "sujood":
http://quran.com/22/18
أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَسْجُدُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ وَالنُّجُومُ وَالْجِبَالُ وَالشَّجَرُ وَالدَّوَابُّ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنَ النَّاسِ ۖ وَكَثِيرٌ حَقَّ عَلَيْهِ الْعَذَابُ ۗ وَمَن يُهِنِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِن مُّكْرِمٍ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاءُ ۩
Sahih International
Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.

"By using the word "Sajdah" (prostration), it has been declared that all created things, be they living things, minerals or plants, are in obedience and thus submit to the Supreme authority of Allah Ta'ala, thereby mentioning two groups of humans in this respect of 'submission'. One, which obeys Allah and therefore is included amongst the creatures who 'prostrate' to Him, and the other one which is rebellious and refuses to bow before Him, meaning, refusing to submit to His Will. The word "Sajdah" (prostration) has been used here in the broader sense of 'submission' to the will of Allah and obeying His commands, because all created things act upon this submission in their own way. Human beings perform Sajdah by touching the ground with the forehead, while in the case of other created things their Sajdah constitutes their faithful performance of the functions assigned to them by Allah.


The Truth About All Created Things Obeying Allah
Genetically, the entire universe and all created things therein are under the control and subject to the Will of their Creator by virtue of an inherently programmed guidance (guidance of Takwin) by Allah. The 'submission' in this sense is pre-determined, involuntary and instinctive. There is no created being which can escape this universal law of creation, be it a Muslim or a non-believer, a living thing or dead, mineral or plant. The smallest particle and the highest mountain cannot make the slightest movement without His Will. There is, however, another kind of submission to Allah, when a person offers homage to Him voluntarily and without constraint. This is what distinguishes a believer from a non-believer. A believer is obedient and sincere in his submission to Allah, whereas a non-believer repudiates His existence. As this verse deals with the difference between a Muslim and a Kafir (infidel), it is more likely that reference to 'Sajdah' (prostration) does not refer to pre-destined and instinctive obedience alone but covers the voluntary submission as well. Let it not be supposed that only human beings and Jinns who possess intelligence can offer voluntary and unconstrained submission, and animals, plants and minerals being devoid of reason cannot exercise voluntary and intentional obedience. Indeed it can be proved from the text of the Qur'an that every created thing has reason, intellect and intent, and the difference lies only in degree. Human beings and Jinns possess a perfect level of intelligence, which makes them liable to a strict adherence to the laws governing what is permissible and what is forbidden. As regards other creatures, Allah has given them intelligence according to their needs. Animals possess the highest degree of intelligence after humans, then come plants and last of all are the minerals. The intelligence among the animals can easily be perceived, and that possessed by plants can also be observed if one applies one's mind to the task. However, the intelligence given to the minerals is so little and concealed that it is not easily discernible, though Allah has said clearly that they not only possess intelligence but also have the capacity to decide things. The Qur'an says about the sky and the earth (They said, "We come willingly." 41:11) that is, when Allah commanded the sky and the earth that they must submit to His Will either by their free choice or by force, they both replied that they accepted His authority by their own voluntary choice."

Ma'ariful Quran - Mufti Shafi Usmani RA
http://classicalislamgroup.com/index...afseer-Al-Hajj


At time of sunset ?!

(at the time of sunset) is not present in the arabic text. If we assume that it presents, then It's not a problem at all. The sun sets all over the day-24 hours- on different areas on the earth, so the state of sujood mentioned above is of persistent nature.


Underneath the Throne ?!

The Throne of Allah, as understood from the Qur’an and Sunnah, surrounds all that we know as the masses of the land and expanses of the sky. All these masses and expanses along with planets and stars, without any exceptions, are enclosed within the Divine throne.
Ayatul kursi:
http://quran.com/2/255
وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ ۖ
And His throne extends over the heavens and the earth

And Allah knows the best.

http://comparativreligion.blogspot.c...tes-under.html
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'Abdullah
07-26-2020, 10:18 PM
@Eddy
If you are genuinely interested in scientific miracles of the Quran, video below is a good debate between Dr. Zakir Naik & Dr. William. People like Ridhwan have absolute no clue what they are talking about and they only use anti religion videos to make money on YouTube.


Personally I take Quran as a book of guidance and moral laws not a book of a scientific miracles.

Science by nature is never 100% certain because it relies on assumptions for the things we have not observed or experienced and as we experience and observe these unknown things scientific theories/ laws change and adapt. For example, there was a time when sun was considered stationary but now we know it moves. Hope it makes sense to you.

All the best!
Reply

Eddy
07-26-2020, 10:40 PM
Thanks for responding to my question but unfortunately I couldn't find in that video any mention of Quran 36 verse 38 and the Hadith I brought up.
Remember this is not about refuting Apostate Prophet's claimsk, this is about a topic I chose and investigated which started by listening to a video by Apostate Prophet.
He didn't go in depth on the subject so it is better to just examine what I used as arguments and not concentrating in discredit him.
Thanks again.
Reply

Eddy
07-26-2020, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Good brother
Although God told us about sun's "mustaqar=resting time/place" in the quran 1400 years ago, we find modern scientists talking about "the solar apex ....."
Thanks for your response but I'm unable to find anything in your answer that satisfies my inquiry.
I am trying to understand what Allah meant by "mustaqar".
We know scientifically that after sunset the sun doesn't rest anywhere. What we call "sunset" is actually the planet earth rotating on its own axis and by doing so we loose sight of the sun every day late in the afternoon.
The earth continues rotating at the same speed, never stopping until the next day we can see the sun again.
The sun never moved (relatively speaking) it is always the earth rotating and creating what we call day and night.
If we stand in front of a lamp and we start slowly spinning at one point we're not going to see the light of the lamp.
If we keep spinning we are going to see the light of the lamp again.
Sorry but I don't see any clear cut explanation in your answer.
Reply

*charisma*
07-26-2020, 11:20 PM
Hi Eddy,

Keep in mind while scientific connections can be made to the Quran, ultimately the Quran is a book of signs and guidance, not science. Science is also not constant. New discoveries debunk old theories, new theories arise with the change of environment, theories are still unproven and discoveries unknown, etc. However, Quran does not change and has not changed. I'm sure there are verses in the Quran that were unclear previously, but are quite clear now due to scientific advancements, just as we may have unclear verses now which may be very clear in the future. To be honest though, I don't necessarily see any other Abrahamic religion (or even other religions in general) which has such a strong scientific connection as does Islam. It just shows the importance that belief does not have to be without logic.

As believers, the Quran is free of error. As humans though, we are full of error and can misinterpret, misunderstand, or be quick to lose our faith due to overthinking and trying to make our religion into something it is not. Not having an answer to what you want answered doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the quran.

In regards to those particular verses, I understand it exactly as it says. I don't understand the need to make things complicated or complex.

It is simple, the night and day are separate and nothing moves or happens without Allah's permission/will.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-26-2020, 11:23 PM
Honestly I am not sure what scientific error you want to point out?
If you need explanation of the verses, then I think that will help to understand what Allah wants us to understand from these verses:
37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
The alternation of the night and day is one of those realities which man does not regard as worthy of much attention only because it is a phenomenon of daily occurrence and experience; whereas if he considers how the day passes and how the night falls, and what is the wisdom in the passing of the day and in the falling of the night, he will himself realize that this is an obvious sign of the existence of an All-Powerful and All-Wise Allah and of His being One and only One. The day cannot pass and the night cannot fall until the sun hides from the earth. The great regularity which is found in the alternation of the day and night was not possible unless the sun and the earth were bound in one and the same relentless system. Then the deep relationship which exists between the alternation of the day and night and the other creations on the earth clearly points to the fact that this system has been established deliberately by a Being with perfect wisdom. The existence on the earth, of the men and animals and vegetation, and even of water and air and different minerals, is in fact, the result of placing the earth at a particular distance from the sun, with the arrangement that the different parts of the earth should go on successively coming before the sun and hiding from it at definite intervals. If the distance of the earth from the sun had been a little longer, or a little shorter, or there had been a perpetual night on one side of it and a perpetual day on the other, or the alternation of the day and night had been much faster or much slower, or sometimes the day had appeared suddenly and sometimes the night without any system, no life could be possible on this planet, and even the form and appearance of the inorganic substances would have been much different from what it is now. If the hearts are not blinded, one can clearly perceive in this system the working of a God, Who willed to bring into being this particular kind of creation on the earth and then established relevance, harmonies and relationships between the earth and the sun precisely in accordance with its needs and requirements. If a person regards the concept of the existence of God and His Unity as far removed from reason, he should think for himself and see how much farther removed should it be from reason to ascribe this wonderful creation to many gods, or to think that all this has happened automatically under some deaf and blind law of nature. When a person who can accept without question these latter unreasonable explanations, only on the basis of conjecture and speculation, says that the existence of a system and wisdom and purpose is not a sufficient proof of the existence of God, it becomes difficult for us to believe whether such a person really feels the need and necessity of a rational proof, sufficient or insufficient in any degree whatever, for accepting any concept of creed in the world.

38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
Better translation could be “ please of rest” instead of “ stopping point.” “Place of rest” may either mean the place where the sun will ultimately come to a halt, or the time when it will come to a halt. The true meaning of this verse can be determined only when man has attained the full and exact knowledge of the realities of the universe. But man’s knowledge is such that it has been changing in every age and what he seems to know today might change tomorrow. The people of the ancient times on the basis of their observations of the sun believed that it was moving round the earth. Then after further research and observation the view became that the sun was stationary and all the planets of the solar system were revolving round it. But this theory also did not last long. The later observations revealed that not only the sun but all the stars are also moving in a particular direction, at speeds of 10 to 100 miles per second. About the sun the modern astronomers hold the view that it is moving at a speed of 20 kilometers (about 12 miles) per second along with its whole family of the planets. As we can see, that knowledge of science is not certain and I don’t want to stretch the interpretation of the verse to fit what science currently believes, rather the focus should be what we can learn from the verse and how we can use it to appreciate the creation of Allah.

39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
That is, the phases of the moon go on changing throughout the month. It begins as a crescent, then goes on waxing every day till it becomes the full moon on the 14th of the month. Then it starts waning every day till at last it returns to its original shape of the crescent. The same has been happening for millions of years with perfect regularity, and no change has ever occurred in the phases of the moon. That is why one can always calculate and find out exactly in what phase the moon will be on a particular day. If the movement of the moon had not been bound in a system, estimation of its phases would not have been possible.

40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon,
This sentence can have two meanings and both are correct.

(1) The sun does not have the power that it should draw the moon into itself, or enter its orbit and collide with it.

(2) The sun cannot appear in the times which have been appointed for the rising and appearing of the moon. It is not possible that the sun should suddenly appear on the horizon when the moon is shining at night.

nor does the night overtake the day,
Nor does this happen either that the night should approach before the appointed period of the day comes to an end, and should start spreading its darkness suddenly during the time when the day is meant to spread its light.

but each, in an orbit, is swimming.
The word falak in Arabic is used for the orbit of the planets, and it gives a different meaning from the word sama (sky). The sentence, “Each in an orbit is floating (swimming)” points to four realities.

(1) That not only the sun and the moon but all the stars and planets and celestial bodies are moving.

(2) The falak, or orbit, of each one of them is separate.

(3) That the orbits are not moving with the stars in them, but the stars are moving in the orbits.

(4) That the movement of the stars in their orbits is similar to the floating of something in a fluid.

These verses are not intended to describe the realities of astronomy, but are meant to make man understand that if he looks around himself, with open eyes, and uses his common sense, he will find countless and limitless proofs of the existence of God and His Unity, and he will not come across a single proof of atheism and shirk.

The vastness of the solar system in which our earth is included is such that its parent body, the sun, is 300,000 times bigger than the earth, and its farthest planet Neptune is at least 2,793 million miles distant from the sun. However, if Pluto is taken as the farthest planet, it revolves 4,600 million miles away round it. Notwithstanding this vastness, the solar system occupies a very insignificant part of a huge galaxy. The galaxy which includes our solar system has about 3,000 million suns in it, and its nearest sun is so distant from our earth that its light takes about four years to reach us. Then this galaxy also is not the whole universe. According to the investigations made so far, it has been estimated that it is one of about 2,000,000 spiral nebulae, and the nearest nebula is about a million light years away from the earth. As for the farthest celestial bodies which are visible through the modern instruments, their light reaches the earth in about 100 million years. Even now it cannot be claimed that man has seen the whole universe. It is a small part of the Kingdom of Allah which man has yet been able to observe. It cannot be predicted how far and deep man will yet be able to see with greater and more efficient means of observation at his disposal.

All the information that has been gathered so far about the universe proves that this whole world is made up of the same substance of which our tiny earthly world is made, and the same law is working in the universe which is working in the world of our earth; otherwise it was not at all possible, that man should have made observations of the very distant worlds from the earth, measured their distances and estimated their movements.
Is it not a clear proof of the fact that this whole universe is the creation of One God and the Kingdom of One Ruler?
Then from the order and the wisdom and the excellence of workmanship and the deep relationships which are found in the hundreds of thousands of the galaxies and in the millions and billions of the stars and planets revolving in them no sensible person can imagine that all this has come about automatically. Is it possible that there should be no administrator behind this order and system, no sage behind this wisdom, no designer behind this design and work of art, and no planner behind this planning?
Reply

Eddy
07-27-2020, 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by Good brother
... taking the prostration (sajdah) of the sun to mean that it can take effect only when it places its forehead on some floor like a human being would not be correct. Thus, the truth of the matter turns out to be that the sun at every moment while moving on its orbit keeps offering prostration before Allah the Almighty and keeps seeking permission to move ahead - and it needs no pause or break to make prostration or seek permission.
Thanks for your response.
That explanation is not nearly close to my understanding.
I'm going to use the same example of the lamp.
There's a lamp in front of me (not moving) This lamp represents the sun.
I slowly begin to spin until I can no longer see the light of the lamp (sunset)
I keep spinning until I see the light again (sunrise)

Now this is how Allah describes that.
I am standing and not moving looking ahead.
The lamp in front of me (the sun) begins to move around me until I can no longer see it (sunset).
After that the lamp stops moving in its place of rest, until Allah gives it permission to continue moving around me.
Permission is given and the lamp continues moving until I can see it again (sunrise)
And this 24 hour cycle continues forever until one time permission will not be given.
Can you now understand what I understand and that what Allah describes doesn't much reality (science if you want to use that term).
I am trying to understand it from an Islamic point of view but logic is a big part of my thinking and I cannot see the logic here.
Thanks again for your time attempting an explanation.
Reply

Eddy
07-27-2020, 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
As believers, the Quran is free of error. As humans though, we are full of error and can misinterpret, misunderstand, or be quick to lose our faith due to overthinking and trying to make our religion into something it is not. Not having an answer to what you want answered doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the quran.

In regards to those particular verses, I understand it exactly as it says. I don't understand the need to make things complicated or complex.

It is simple, the night and day are separate and nothing moves or happens without Allah's permission/will.
Thanks for your explanation.
So as you said, the Quran is free of error but humans commit errors and can misinterpret.
Do Muslims interpret prophet Muhammad's words as flawless with no mistakes?
He was human and the hadith are not the word of Allah but what people believed to be the word and actions of prophet Muhammad.
Could he have misinterpreted what Allah communicated to him?

In this hadith someone asked.
"Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Prophet Muhammad then responds what I already explained.
It is not Allah giving an explanation, it is prophet Muhammad.
And that explanation is far from being logical in any way according to what we know today.
I don't know maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for your help.
Reply

Eddy
07-27-2020, 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
If you are genuinely interested in scientific miracles of the Quran, video below is a good debate between Dr. Zakir Naik & Dr. William. People like Ridhwan have absolute no clue what they are talking about and they only use anti religion videos to make money on YouTube.
Sorry maybe I was not clear enough. I have no interest in finding scientific miracles in the Quran, what I'm trying to find is a true religion behind The Bible or the Quran.
Scientific errors in a book made by God (Allah) means that it is all a lie and the book was actually made by men.
That is the real purpose of finding scientific errors where errors should not be there.
Faith can only take you part of the way but there has to be other ways to find truth. That's the agnostics dilemma.
Thanks for your input.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-27-2020, 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Sorry maybe I was not clear enough. I have no interest in finding scientific miracles in the Quran, what I'm trying to find is a true religion behind The Bible or the Quran.
Scientific errors in a book made by God (Allah) means that it is all a lie and the book was actually made by men.
That is the real purpose of finding scientific errors where errors should not be there.
Faith can only take you part of the way but there has to be other ways to find truth. That's the agnostics dilemma.
Thanks for your input.
My friend we all know that science is only a tool which is based on our limited knowledge and observation and it keeps changing - the example I have given in my previous post was very much related to your question. How science at one time established that sun was stationary, then established that the earth was stationary and sun was moving and now we know both sun and earth move in their respective orbits.

On the other hand, Quran is the same and is never changed. It states that not only the earth and sun but everything else such as stars also revolve in their own orbits. That’s something science has recently established while Quran has that statement for over 1400+ years. There is no conflict, conflict in only in your own mind. Quran verifies if a scientific research is an established fact or not, science can’t verify Quran because science is not absolute knowledge.

Muslims have never been against science and we do accept established scientific research but science is not certainty while Divine revelation is a certainty.

The purposes of verses in question is not to debate what science says and what it does not, it is to realize that everything is under the control of One God - Allah who has power over everything and to Him everything including sun & moon submit. Allah has given us free will and many signs around us which prove His existence.
By the way do you believe we have a creator and He is only one?
Reply

Eddy
07-27-2020, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Good brother
At time of sunset ?!

(at the time of sunset) is not present in the arabic text. If we assume that it presents, then It's not a problem at all. The sun sets all over the day-24 hours- on different areas on the earth, so the state of sujood mentioned above is of persistent nature.
I don't know if is not in the Arabic text but you are missing the spot.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Sahih Bukhari assumed the question referred to "at the time of sunset".
Is the part in parenthesis part of Sahih Bukhari's text?

Another thing I'm noticing now that changes the whole thing.
Notice that it begins by saying "The prophet asked me at sunset"
So prophet Muhammad is the one asking the question but who is the one answering it?
At first I assumed prophet Muhammad was the one answering.
This is too confusing.
Then it continues:
I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne ....
Now who is "I" ?
Who is this hadith talking about?
Prophet Muhammad asked the question and who was the one answering?
Please any idea?
Thanks
Reply

Ümit
07-27-2020, 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by Eddy
I don't know if is not in the Arabic text but you are missing the spot.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Sahih Bukhari assumed the question referred to "at the time of sunset".
Is the part in parenthesis part of Sahih Bukhari's text?

Another thing I'm noticing now that changes the whole thing.
Notice that it begins by saying "The prophet asked me at sunset"
So prophet Muhammad is the one asking the question but who is the one answering it?
At first I assumed prophet Muhammad was the one answering.
This is too confusing.
Then it continues:
I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne ....
Now who is "I" ?
Who is this hadith talking about?
Prophet Muhammad asked the question and who was the one answering?
Please any idea?
Thanks
Dear Eddy,

1. Hadiths are narrations of people who have met/spoken/known Mohammed sas in their lives. So the person meant with "I" is then not Mohammed sas, but anyone else. In the Hadith itself it should mention that persons name.
2. in this hadeeth, it is prophet Mohammed sas that asked the question (he knows the answer but asks to test someone)...then the other answers with "Allah and His Messenger know better."...then Mohammed sas gives the answer: "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne."
3. As a muslim we believe that everything prostrates and prays to God in its own way. I have never seen an animal actually prostrating, but they do that in their own way...so do trees, rocks and mountains...as we of course know that trees and non living things cannot even move, so how are they going to prostrate....right? they are not prostrating in the way we do with our heads to the ground...they do that in their own way...so do stars, moons, suns and planets prostrate in their own way in front of God...it is not a thing we can observe...

so, the sun litterally going underneath the throne and then prostrating is not a thing we can observe. The whole throne thing, where that exactly is...no one can show you with its finger where that place exactly is...we do not have the ability to see it.

4. you should realize that religion and science extension, and not each others substitution. What I mean by that, religion and science have a certain relationship with each other...religion starts where science ends. you can compare this relationship with a half peeled banana. the peeled part is the part we know and we can prove with science. the unpeeled part is the part we "believe" where the rest of the banana is, and as we develop ourselves, we are able to continue to peel the banana and can therefore prove more and more about religion...
one thing that does not fit in this metaphore is that there are a few things in religion beyond the grasp of science...so we will never be able to proof everything about it.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-27-2020, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Thanks for your explanation.
So as you said, the Quran is free of error but humans commit errors and can misinterpret.
Do Muslims interpret prophet Muhammad's words as flawless with no mistakes?
He was human and the hadith are not the word of Allah but what people believed to be the word and actions of prophet Muhammad.
Could he have misinterpreted what Allah communicated to him?


In this hadith someone asked.
"Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Prophet Muhammad then responds what I already explained.
It is not Allah giving an explanation, it is prophet Muhammad.
And that explanation is far from being logical in any way according to what we know today.
I don't know maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for your help.
Allah says in the Quran (interpretation of the meaning):
Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
It is only an Inspiration that is inspired. [Quran 53:2-4]
Part of the mission of a Prophet is to teach what is revealed to him and explain to the people, as Allah says in the Quran:
Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you) We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Quran) and sanctifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Quran) and the Hikmah (i.e. Sunnah, Islamic laws and Fiqh - jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know.
[Quran 2:151]
In one of your posts you asked why Prophet (Peace be upon him) himself ask the question, " Do you know where the sun goes." He asked this question to teach and explain what that verse meant.

Allah also says in the Quran:
This is the Revelation sent down from the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah),
We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),
And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta),
And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him.
And verily, this Quran is a Reminder for the Muttaqun (pious).
[Quran 69:43-48]
So to conclude in the matters of conveying the message from Allah & explaining that message to people, Prophet (peace be upon him) did not make any mistake.
Now to answer other part of your question, did Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) make mistakes in matters which are not related to Divine Revelation? The answer is yes, he did because he was human being like us. To give an example, let me quote a hadith:
It was narrated from 'Aisha that the Prophet (ﷺ) heard some sounds and said:
“What is this noise?” They said: “Palm trees that are being pollinated.” He said: “If they did not do that it would be better.” So they did not pollinate them that year, and the dates did not mature properly. they mentioned that to the Prophet (ﷺ) and he said: “If it is one of the matters of your religion, then refer to me.”

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، حَدَّثَنَا عَفَّانُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، حَدَّثَنَا ثَابِتٌ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، وَهِشَامُ بْنُ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم سَمِعَ أَصْوَاتًا ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ مَا هَذَا الصَّوْتُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا النَّخْلُ يُؤَبِّرُونَهُ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ لَوْ لَمْ يَفْعَلُوا لَصَلَحَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَلَمْ يُؤَبِّرُوا عَامَئِذٍ فَصَارَ شِيصًا فَذَكَرُوا لِلنَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَ ‏"‏ إِنْ كَانَ شَيْئًا مِنْ أَمْرِ دُنْيَاكُمْ فَشَأْنَكُمْ بِهِ وَإِنْ كَانَ شَيْئًا مِنْ أُمُورِ دِينِكُمْ فَإِلَىَّ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

English reference: Vol. 3, Book 16, Hadith 2471
Arabic reference: Book 16, Hadith 2565
https://sunnah.com/urn/1325660

Notice, in the above hadith Prophet (Peace be upon him) said not to pollinate palm trees because in his opinion, pollination was not going to make any difference. But he was wrong and he clearly said that he can guide in the matters of Divine Guidance (Revelation) but in the matters of worldly affairs, his knowledge was limited.

I hope you find that helpful to understand the role of the Prophet which is not only to receive the revelation but also to explain it to people through his words and actions. That why Sunnah is so important to understand the Quran & just like Quran is preserved, knowledge of hadith is also preserved. We have several categories of hadith, Sahih Hadith are the one which Muslims scholars use to interpret Islamic laws.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-27-2020, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
I don't know if is not in the Arabic text but you are missing the spot.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Sahih Bukhari assumed the question referred to "at the time of sunset".
Is the part in parenthesis part of Sahih Bukhari's text?

Another thing I'm noticing now that changes the whole thing.
Notice that it begins by saying "The prophet asked me at sunset"
So prophet Muhammad is the one asking the question but who is the one answering it?
At first I assumed prophet Muhammad was the one answering.
This is too confusing.
Then it continues:
I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne ....
Now who is "I" ?
Who is this hadith talking about?
Prophet Muhammad asked the question and who was the one answering?
Please any idea?
Thanks
Let me quote the hadith: I will keep the wording of actual hadith in bold & give my commentary in the blue to explain your questions:

Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?"
So yes the question is asked by Prophet (peace be upon him) because sometimes teaching is done by asking questions. This is a common method is class room setting, teacher often ask questions to students while teacher already know the answer. As I mentioned in one of my previous post that part of the mission of Prophet (peace be upon him) was to explain & teach what was revealed to him.

I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best."
"I" here refers to "Abu Dharr "who narrated this hadith.
Also note that the companions were not like us, they were careful when it comes to matters of Divine revelation. Often time, we will see hadiths in which Prophet (peace be upon him) would ask something from companions and their response is often recorded as " Allah and His Messenger know the best." This is because they want Prophet (peace be upon him) to explain the Divine Revelation, because he (peace be upon him) was given this knowledge from Allah who has the absolute knowledge while our own knowledge is limited.
He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) recited, "That: "And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by `Abdullah.
Here Prophet (peace be upon him) replied to his own question & hopefully you can now see that purpose of the original question from Prophet (peace be upon him) was to explain the verse 36:38

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 7424
In-book reference: Book 97, Hadith 52
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 9, Book 93, Hadith 520
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/52

Please note that this hadith is graded as Sahih ( as all hadiths in Muslim and Bukhari are) and there is no question about the authenticity of this hadith. In fact this hadith is narrated through multiple chains and is found in almost all books of hadith including Sahih Muslim & Sahih Bukhari. When a hadith is found both is Sahih Muslim & Sahih Bukhari, it is also called "agreed upon" or "muttafaqun ‘alayh" which means the hadith has highest level of authenticity.

And Allah knows the best!


I previously has said that we don't want any conflict in what we have established through science and what has been stated in Quran for over 1400+ years ago. This is true not only in the case of Quran but also in the case of many Sahih Hadith. For example, in this hadith it is mentioned that sun will eventually rise from the West. Now mind that this has been recorded in books of Hadith for centuries and this has never been established as a scientific fact. In fact, according to Muslims belief, rising of the sun from the West is one of a major sign of the day of Judgement as stated in another sahih hadith:


Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "
The Hour will not be established until the sun rises from the West
: and when the people see it, then whoever will be living on the surface of the earth will have faith, and that is (the time) when no good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before." (6.158)

حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَاحِدِ، حَدَّثَنَا عُمَارَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو زُرْعَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ، رضى الله عنه قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَطْلُعَ الشَّمْسُ مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا، فَإِذَا رَآهَا النَّاسُ آمَنَ مَنْ عَلَيْهَا، فَذَاكَ حِينَ لاَ يَنْفَعُ نَفْسًا إِيمَانُهَا، لَمْ تَكُنْ آمَنَتْ مِنْ قَبْلُ ‏"‏‏.‏
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 4635
In-book reference: Book 65, Hadith 157
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 159

But let's see what does science say about the rising of the Sun from the West? We know that it has not yet established as a fact from science that shows the knowledge gained from science has always its limits. We also know that science has no solid data to deny the possibility of sun rise from the West, in fact, some observations has been made by scientists which suggest that Islamic narrative of rising the sun from the West may become a reality. These observations are the following:

  1. Earth’s magnetic field is flipping at an alarming rate comparing than earlier rate. So there is the possibility to flip the earth’s magnetic pole . As a result , north pole will be new south and east pole will be new west.
  2. Scientists have observed that earth’s rotation speed is slowing down and scientists predict that it will become more slower and slower, and eventually earth's rotation will stop for few moments. But because of vast gravity & weight, earth will start to rotate clock-wise. and then what will happen if earth start to rotate clock wise? There will be continuous two night without day between two night. Then Sun will arise from west.

​I will let you research what science says in this regard & see if their findings align with what is stated in Hadiths.
You may find many articles on this subject referring to NASA but I don't think those are authentic articles.
Below is one article written by a non-Muslim on this subject.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...h-become-south

What I know that it may take science centuries to come to this conclusion but this is already stated as a fact in books of Sahih Hadith ( a knowledge which is revealed by God and is CERTAIN). It is the science which needs Quran & Sahih Hadith for confirmation of their findings, not the other way around.

And Allah knows the best!

Reply

Eddy
07-27-2020, 09:23 PM
Thanks for all your answers, in particular the last few by HabibUrrehman and Ümit
I see what you mean now.
So it is prophet Muhammad who answers his own question.
Now why would prophet Muhammad ask the wrong question?
And then why prophet Muhammad would answer giving an illogical answer?
This is what "Ridvan" and others are attacking and this is why they consider the answer shows scientific errors.
Let's back up a bit.
Why is this considered a scientific error?
Because both the question and the answer don't align with our scientific understanding of how the solar system works.
First let's describe how prophet Muhammad describes a 24 hour cycle (day and night).
Prophet Muhammad describes the sun rotating around the earth which apparently doesn't move.
After sunset the sun prostrates itself underneath Allah's throne. It waits for Allah's permission to rise again the next day.
Permission is given so the 24 hour cycle starts again until one day permission will not be given. (resurrection day)
This explanation only works if indeed the sun is rotation around the earth and making it in a 24 hour cycle.
We know that is not possible.
This explanation works only if planet earth doesn't spin and we know this is not true.
Not to mention that when it is sunset to me in New York it is not in most of the rest of the world.
So sunset is not a fix time everywhere in the world.
So there you have it, That is why.
I have tried to find explanations to this and I haven't found any reasonable one.
I tried to read carefully all your answers and I hope I didn't miss anything but nothing yet explains this religiously and scientifically at the same time.
I have tried to put myself in the place of the writer of the hadith and I certainly would have had asked so many questions, (anyone of us would have with what we know today).
What do you mean, where the sun goes prophet?
Sunset where prophet?
Are you saying the sun is the one rotating around planet earth?
Are you saying the sun really stops every 24 hours?
And on and on.
Sorry if I am to inquisitive and upfront and this bothers anyone.
Thanks for all your answers.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-27-2020, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Thanks for all your answers, in particular the last few by HabibUrrehman and Ümit
I see what you mean now.
So it is prophet Muhammad who answers his own question.
Now why would prophet Muhammad ask the wrong question?
And then why prophet Muhammad would answer giving an illogical answer?
This is what "Ridvan" and others are attacking and this is why they consider the answer shows scientific errors.
Let's back up a bit.
Why is this considered a scientific error?
Because both the question and the answer don't align with our scientific understanding of how the solar system works.
First let's describe how prophet Muhammad describes a 24 hour cycle (day and night).
Prophet Muhammad describes the sun rotating around the earth which apparently doesn't move.
After sunset the sun prostrates itself underneath Allah's throne. It waits for Allah's permission to rise again the next day.
Permission is given so the 24 hour cycle starts again until one day permission will not be given. (resurrection day)
This explanation only works if indeed the sun is rotation around the earth and making it in a 24 hour cycle.
We know that is not possible.
This explanation works only if planet earth doesn't spin and we know this is not true.
Not to mention that when it is sunset to me in New York it is not in most of the rest of the world.
So sunset is not a fix time everywhere in the world.
So there you have it, That is why.
I have tried to find explanations to this and I haven't found any reasonable one.
I tried to read carefully all your answers and I hope I didn't miss anything but nothing yet explains this religiously and scientifically at the same time.
I have tried to put myself in the place of the writer of the hadith and I certainly would have had asked so many questions, (anyone of us would have with what we know today).
What do you mean, where the sun goes prophet?
Sunset where prophet?
Are you saying the sun is the one rotating around planet earth?
Are you saying the sun really stops every 24 hours?
And on and on.
Sorry if I am to inquisitive and upfront and this bothers anyone.
Thanks for all your answers.
I am amazed that you are still stuck with science. And you interpreted the hadith at your own, in a way you wanted. Where did the hadith or Quran say that the earth is stationary and does not move? In fact, the verse says everything moves in its own orbit. Where does it say that sun stops? That's your interpretation, Quran clearly says that it moves until its appointed time. Hadith only says that it seeks permission to rise every day. Can science contradict that? It can't because you need to have a clear proof to anything in science which you don't have. May be I should ask you to prove that the sun does not seek Allah's permission to rise every day?

As mentioned in one of my earlier post that man’s knowledge is such that it has been changing in every age and what he seems to know today might change tomorrow. The people of the ancient times on the basis of their observations of the sun believed that it was moving round the earth. In 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the center of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy. The point is that Quran never changed while science kept changing and eventually came to same conclusion which Quran has come up with 1400+ years ago.

So let's go back and see what Quran said about these verses:
It says that everything is revolving in its own path with the order of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taa'la. Does it conflict with modern day scientific knowledge? No it does not.
What does the hadith say? It says that the sun submits to God's Will and when the time will come Allah will ask Sun to rise from the West and that is a major sign for the Day of Judgement. Does this contradict with science? It does not, I gave some links to most current scientific research which actually suggest that the Sun may rise from the West.
For more info about how day and night are mentioned in Quran and how that description in Quran aligns with the modern day scientific knowledge, feel free to read the article below:
http://www.kaheel7.com/eng/index.php...night-and-day-

I feel that by focusing too much on science, you are also missing the whole point of our discussion so far. Scientific knowledge is never CERTAIN. I gave one example earlier in the form of old scientific beliefs about the Sun. Another example, is that Allah said in the Quran that the universe is expanding:
And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander. (Quran 51:47)
Now if you rely on science then people before 1920 would have used the above verse to say that Quran has scientific error. We now know that the error was not in Quran but was in our limited knowledge and observations. Science before 1920 had established that the universe had always been in existence; also, that the size of the universe was fixed and not changing. Science discovered only a century ago that the scientists were wrong and in fact universe has a beginning and it is expanding. In the end, science has to agree with what Quran has been saying for 1400+ years. Don't limit your intellect to something which is not certain and changes with time, rather focus on what you gain from these verse.

These verses are powerful verses for someone who has not corrupted his nature (fitra) because it reminds us of the absolute Power and Oneness of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taa'la. Please read post # 9 in this thread again & hope that will help. In fact read it with its context, start with verse 33 till verse 44.
Reply

Eddy
07-28-2020, 04:05 AM
I am amazed that you are still stuck with science.
Well yes, this whole thread is about debunking the notion that the Quran has scientific errors


And you interpreted the hadith at your own, in a way you wanted. Where did the hadith or Quran say that the earth is stationary and does not move?
That is my assumption based on the fact that prophet Muhammad is asking Where does the sun goes after sunset?
I'm trying to understand what was prophet Muhammad understanding of the solar system.
If we assume that the earth is rotating then sunset is changing location every single minute.
If sunset is changing location every minute then Muhammad question makes no sense.

Where does it say that sun stops? That's your interpretation, Quran clearly says that it moves until its appointed time. Hadith only says that it seeks permission to rise every day
Quran 36 verse 38
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point.
It has been translated as prostrating or resting point, etc.

Can science contradict that? It can't because you need to have a clear proof to anything in science which you don't have. May be I should ask you to prove that the sun does not seek Allah's permission to rise every day?
As mentioned in one of my earlier post that man’s knowledge is such that it has been changing in every age and what he seems to know today might change tomorrow. The people of the ancient times on the basis of their observations of the sun believed that it was moving round the earth. In 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the center of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy. The point is that Quran never changed while science kept changing and eventually came to same conclusion which Quran has come up with 1400+ years ago.
Agree with all that but doesn't help to solve the 24 hour cycle scientific explanation.
I'm only interested in the 24 hour cycle which happens every time Allah gives the sun permission to rise again.
We are not interested in the final trip which happens when permission is denied.


What does the hadith say? It says that the sun submits to God's Will and when the time will come Allah will ask Sun to rise from the West and that is a major sign for the Day of Judgement. Does this contradict with science? It does not, I gave some links to most current scientific research which actually suggest that the Sun may rise from the West.
That's the part of the Hadith we are not touching because that happens when permission is denied.
The reason we are not interested in that part is because that hasn't happened yet, we only know what happens every 24 hours.

You are also missing the whole point of our discussion so far. Scientific knowledge is never CERTAIN. I gave one example earlier in the form of old scientific beliefs about the Sun. Another example, is that Allah said in the Quran that the universe is expanding:
And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander. (Quran 51:47)
Now if you rely on science then people before 1920 would have used the above verse to say that Quran has scientific error. We now know that the error was not in Quran but was in our limited knowledge and observations. Science before 1920 had established that the universe had always been in existence; also, that the size of the universe was fixed and not changing. Science discovered only a century ago that the scientists were wrong and in fact universe has a beginning and it is expanding. In the end, science has to agree with what Quran has been saying for 1400+ years. Don't limit your intellect to something which is not certain and changes with time, rather focus on what you gain from these verse.
These verses are powerful verses for someone who has not corrupted his nature (fitra) because it reminds us of the absolute Power and Oneness of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taa'la. Please read post # 9 in this thread again & hope that will help. In fact read it with its context, start with verse 33 till verse 44.
I don't disagree with any of that but I'm trying to be very focus on a very small part of the Quran and only in part of the Hadith I mentioned.

The objective:
Focus in the 24 hour cycle (day and night),The cycle that begins when Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again.
Only on the 24 hour cycle and on prophet Muhammad's initial question.
Where does the sun goes after sunset?
I don't think anybody has answered why prophet Muhammad asked this question.
If he knew how the solar system works then he shouldn't have asked this question because makes no sense.
The question makes no sense and the answer doesn't either.
Of course speaking according to what we know now.
An easy way out is to say is all figurative speech or a metaphor but that can be taken as a cop-out.

I understand it must be frustration answering my questions but believe me I do appreciate it.
Reply

Ümit
07-28-2020, 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Well yes, this whole thread is about debunking the notion that the Quran has scientific errors



That is my assumption based on the fact that prophet Muhammad is asking Where does the sun goes after sunset?
I'm trying to understand what was prophet Muhammad understanding of the solar system.
If we assume that the earth is rotating then sunset is changing location every single minute.
If sunset is changing location every minute then Muhammad question makes no sense.


Quran 36 verse 38
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point.
It has been translated as prostrating or resting point, etc.


Agree with all that but doesn't help to solve the 24 hour cycle scientific explanation.
I'm only interested in the 24 hour cycle which happens every time Allah gives the sun permission to rise again.
We are not interested in the final trip which happens when permission is denied.



That's the part of the Hadith we are not touching because that happens when permission is denied.
The reason we are not interested in that part is because that hasn't happened yet, we only know what happens every 24 hours.


I don't disagree with any of that but I'm trying to be very focus on a very small part of the Quran and only in part of the Hadith I mentioned.

The objective:
Focus in the 24 hour cycle (day and night),The cycle that begins when Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again.
Only on the 24 hour cycle and on prophet Muhammad's initial question.
Where does the sun goes after sunset?
I don't think anybody has answered why prophet Muhammad asked this question.
If he knew how the solar system works then he shouldn't have asked this question because makes no sense.
The question makes no sense and the answer doesn't either.
Of course speaking according to what we know now.
An easy way out is to say is all figurative speech or a metaphor but that can be taken as a cop-out.

I understand it must be frustration answering my questions but believe me I do appreciate it.
You want to talk about science? then lets talk about science.

Question: you and all the videos about our solar system say that the Earth rotates around the sun, right?
Then why oh why do we something else when we look up? why do we see the sun, moon, stars and planets rotate around us?

Answer: because motion is relative. if you are saying "the Earth rotates around the sun", you are actually saying "the Earth rotates around the sun relative to the sun".
remove your reference point from the sun, put it on earth, and voila the whole solar system, or in fact the whole universe rotates around earth.

Can you understand that? so saying "the Earth rotates around the sun" is just as wrong (or right) as saying "the sun rotates around earth".

Second, It is clear you are not looking for real answers here. you are only pretending to be open minded...you are just here because you obviously heard or read this hadeeth/verse somewhere...it sounded illogical to you...and you just wanted to stress that out on this site...you have proved you do not even know what hadeeths are...so, I do not expect from you that you would understand...

Bottom line, what I'm saying is...I am not playing this little game with you...seek for entertainment elsewhere.
Reply

Eddy
07-28-2020, 08:11 AM
Originally Posted by Ümit
You want to talk about science? then lets talk about science.
No, not really, I'm not interested in talking about science but I do understand why you ask.
Let me explain my objective again:
I am an agnostic from a Christian background who wants to figure out if the scriptures have been written by men or by God.
How do we do that?
The easiest way is to find scientific errors in the scriptures that make it very obvious the scriptures couldn't be written by a God.
I am not looking for scientific miracles nor sophisticated scientific discoveries.
In fact I am not looking for anything too complicated.
If God's scriptures say he created the Universe 5 thousand years ago then we know that couldn't be right because with very little understanding of science we can understand the Universe is much older than that.
That simple.
As I explained I was watching Ridvan's video on the subject where he finds 60 scientific errors in the Quran.
Most of them are somehow explainable or at least difficult to prove.
The one I picked is not entirely from Ridvan since he never mentions the Hadith and didn't go into much detail.
What I found interesting about Quran 36 38 and the Hadith is that it explains a simple 24 hour cycle (day and night) in a way that only a person standing on earth and not understanding much about astronomy and how the solar system works could tell.

Originally Posted by Ümit
It is clear you are not looking for real answers here. you are only pretending to be open minded
So are you saying that I have refuted some real answers?
Can you quote them?
Can you provide any real answers?
Why did prophet Muhammad ask the question. Do you know where the sun goes after sunset?
If you ask me I would have answered. Are you serious? What do mean? The sun doesn't go anywhere after sunset.
We just can't see it because the earth rotated.
What would have been your real explanation?
If the sun doesn't go anywhere after sunset then how do you explain that it stops (prostrates, slows down rests, etc)?
Then after is given permission it rises again.
Rises from where?
We know it never moved.
What is your real explanation for this?
Please any real answer is more that welcome at this point.

I do appreciate your answers.
Reply

Ümit
07-28-2020, 08:45 AM
We already told you...multiple times... that we believe that everything prostrates in front of Allah in its own way...Do you see trees rocks and mountains going anywhere? do you see them prostrating? NO....but still they do it...in their own way...not observable for human eye.
In the same way the sun prostrates too...it is not going anywhere...it does not stop...it just does what it does and it prostrates without we humans noticing. This answer has been giving to you, but you still keep hammering to your own interpretation of the sun going under a throne like a dog that goes under the chair and waiting for his next command.
That is not the case.

about the universe being 5 thousands year old? the very term "years" is a worldly concept...without earth, the word "year" is totally meaningless...so God, a being outside the realm of time, and outside the human determined units of time would most certainly NOT speak about "years" as in 365 earth days. that is not logical. so please educate yourself and try again.

have a nice day.
Reply

Eddy
07-28-2020, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Ümit
We already told you...multiple times... that we believe that everything prostrates in front of Allah
The prostration thing has been understood and is not disputed. I take your word for it. That is something that cannot be challenged.
That is something that happens outside of our understanding and cannot in any way tested.
But I was testing more down to earth facts.
I specifically ask you questions about it.
I as an agnostic and a person in the 21st century have trouble understanding.
You didn't answer any of them.
So, what is that tells me?
Why you don't answer my questions? Instead you concentrate only on one single item that is not really in dispute.

Anyway, your answer is taken, understood and accepted but my doubts are pretty much still there.
Reply

Ümit
07-28-2020, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
The prostration thing has been understood and is not disputed. I take your word for it. That is something that cannot be challenged.
That is something that happens outside of our understanding and cannot in any way tested.
But I was testing more down to earth facts.
I specifically ask you questions about it.
I as an agnostic and a person in the 21st century have trouble understanding.
You didn't answer any of them.
So, what is that tells me?
Why you don't answer my questions? Instead you concentrate only on one single item that is not really in dispute.

Anyway, your answer is taken, understood and accepted but my doubts are pretty much still there.
In that case...I am sorry. I concentrated on that item because I thought that was all what you cared about. I am not trying to avoid any of your questions...but I really do not understand what questions you are asking. Please let us know what question you want answered and we will try again.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Eddy
The prostration thing has been understood and is not disputed. I take your word for it. That is something that cannot be challenged.
That is something that happens outside of our understanding and cannot in any way tested.
But I was testing more down to earth facts.
I specifically ask you questions about it.
I as an agnostic and a person in the 21st century have trouble understanding.
You didn't answer any of them.
So, what is that tells me?
Why you don't answer my questions? Instead you concentrate only on one single item that is not really in dispute.

Anyway, your answer is taken, understood and accepted but my doubts are pretty much still there.
In that case...I am sorry. I concentrated on that item because I thought that was all what you cared about. I am not trying to avoid any of your questions...but I really do not understand what questions you are asking. Please let us know what question you want answered and we will try again.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-28-2020, 12:29 PM
@Eddy
I have seen your last post, don’t have access to computer right now but will respond whenever I get a chance.

It is not frustrating because I understand that you don’t see the things with my prospective. And I appreciate that you came on this forum and ask us to clarify these things for you. May Allah open up your heart and help you see the truth. Ameen!

Please give me some time, I will definitely respond in detail sometime today.

All the best!
Reply

Good brother
07-28-2020, 01:07 PM
Just highlight the part that you misunderstand.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better."
Prophet Muhammad replied:
"It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم لأَبِي ذَرٍّ حِينَ غَرَبَتِ الشَّمْسُ ‏"‏ تَدْرِي أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَإِنَّهَا تَذْهَبُ حَتَّى تَسْجُدَ تَحْتَ الْعَرْشِ، فَتَسْتَأْذِنَ فَيُؤْذَنَ لَهَا، وَيُوشِكُ أَنْ تَسْجُدَ فَلاَ يُقْبَلَ مِنْهَا، وَتَسْتَأْذِنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَنَ لَهَا، يُقَالُ لَهَا ارْجِعِي مِنْ حَيْثُ جِئْتِ‏.‏ فَتَطْلُعُ مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا، فَذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى ‏{‏وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَهَا ذَلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ ‏}‏‏"‏‏
Reply

'Abdullah
07-28-2020, 02:56 PM
Well yes, this whole thread is about debunking the notion that the Quran has scientific errors
Previously discussed that if we look at Quran with scientific lens then Quran was wrong when scientists used to believe that earth was stationary & sun revolves around the earth. Quran was wrong when scientists used to believe that sun was stationary but earth moved around it. Quran has been saying that everything revolves in its own orbit including sun, earth and moon and this is what science now agrees with.
Similarly, just a century ago science believed that earth did not had a beginning and that its size does not change. If we believed in that then Quran was wrong again because per Quran earth has a beginning and everything in this universe including earth is expanding. Science now agrees with Quran.

Therefore, using science ( a knowledge which is never certain and keeps changing) to judge Quran is wrong. Its a wrong approach if you are sincerely trying to find the truth. With that said, I will provide translation of verses 36:33-44 and briefly touch upon what Allah wants us to focus on these verses.
And a sign for them is the dead land. We gave it life, and We brought forth from it grains, so that they eat thereof.
And We have made therein gardens of date-palms and grapes, and We have caused springs of water to gush forth therein.
So that they may eat of the fruit thereof, and their hands made it not. Will they not, then, give thanks?
Glory be to Him, Who has created all the pairs of that which the earth produces, as well as of their own (human) kind (male and female), and of that which they know not.
And a sign for them is the night, We withdraw therefrom the day, and behold, they are in darkness.
And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk.
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.
And an Ayah (sign) for them is that We bore their offspring in the laden ship [of Nuh (Noah)].
And We have created for them of the like thereunto, so on them they ride.
And if We will, We shall drown them, and there will be no shout (or helper) for them (to hear their cry for help) nor will they be saved.
Unless it be a mercy from Us, and as an enjoyment for a while. [Quran 36:33-44]
Quranic verses are called “ayah or ayat” as they are “indication or signs of Allah”. In other words they point towards or give indication of existence of Allah. And when you read the translation of above verses, you can see that the main goal it to focus on the things around us because everything around us gives a clear indication of a Creator who has total control over everything.


From verses 33-35, Allah mentioned in these verses to look at the dead earth and how Allah gives this dead earth a life and bring out from the earth grains, fruits, vegetables etc. which we need and consume without paying any attention to the fact that we can't produce any of this at our own. Is this not enough of a sign for the existence of Allah? If it is, why people don't thank Him. Spiritually it also means that just like Allah can give life to a dead earth, He can also give life to a dead heart and bring out from it obedience and humbleness provided we thank Him.

In verses 36 Allah mentions that how perfectly he has created pairs for every thing. Then in verses 37-40 Allah gave example of some of those pairs such as day and night, sun and the moon and how perfectly Allah has control over these things and how these things are interconnected which is a clear sign that the Creator of all these things can only be ONE. Just like Allah created pairs of day & night, sun & moon; He also have created pairs for belief and disbelief, life & death, happiness & sadness, good and evil etc. One important thing to note is that every creation of Allah will finally come to end including sun and moon, only thing which will remain is Allah who will bring us back to life for the day when no one will be wronged and justice will be done based on how people lived their lives on this earth. Last part of this Chapter exclusively talks about life after death.


So far, Allah has drawn our attention to the things we see on the land, and things we see in the sky. Finally in verses 41-44, Allah gives another sign of His power over water. He mentioned, how Allah saved human race by inspiring Noah to build a ship and how later on people build ships for transportation over water on earth. If Allah wills, He can drown people in the water and there is no one who can save us. But just like sun and moon has an appointed time when they will collapse, we human beings also have been given a certain time to live on this earth and when that time comes, no one can save us. No one has ever survived death.

This is in brief what you probably should focus on because it bring out belief in Allah and His Oneness which is essence of all Abrahamic religions. On the other hand, if you focus on science then you will be focusing on the wrong stuff. Most of the time when people try to use science to understand religion, their basis motive is to deny God. The signs are clear but they don't want to see them instead will focus on things which are of unseen nature which even science can neither prove nor deny. Just like if we ask the scientists to prove the non-existence of God, they simply can't.

In my next few posts, I will try to answer your specific questions from your point of view. I will probably take one question at a time and answer that so that we can have more productive conversation.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-28-2020, 03:39 PM
And a sign for them is the night, We withdraw therefrom the day, and behold, they are in darkness.
And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk.
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. [Quran 37-40]
Let's first focus on the verses of Quran only. I have copy/pasted the interpretation of these verses above.
You previously mentioned that verse 36:38 has been translated as:
Quran 36 verse 38
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point.
It has been translated as prostrating or resting point, etc.
First thing I want to mention is that translation of Arabic into English does not convey the full meaning of an Arabic word and that is why Muslims scholars always say that translation of Quran is NOT the Quran, at its best it is an interpretation of what it means in English and translation heavily depends on understanding of a person who is translating the verse. Hence you will see a difference in a way same verse will be translated by different people. Let's look at this particular verse for example and see how this has been translated into English:
Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God; ( This particular translator did not even translate the word
لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ )

Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation....er=36&verse=38

“Place of rest” or " stopping point" or "term appointed" may either mean the place where the sun will ultimately come to a halt, or the time when it will come to a halt. Just life human beings have a particular time set by Allah to live on this earth, the moon and the sun and every other creation of Allah also has an appointed time, when they will come meet the Decree of Allah and come to an end.
It definitely does not mean that the sun stops for a while every day, seeks permission and rises again. I hope this will remove the misunderstanding you have.

Also if we read the translation of all these 4 verses, in summary it says:
  1. Allah created the Day & the Night, the sun and the moon and He has complete control over them.
  2. Not only the sun and the moon but all the stars and planets and celestial bodies are moving in their own separate orbits.
  3. The sun cannot appear in the times which have been appointed for the rising and appearing of the moon. It is not possible that the sun should suddenly appear on the horizon when the moon is shining at night. Nor does this the night should approach before the appointed period of the day comes to an end, and should start spreading its darkness suddenly during the time when the day is meant to spread its light.
    All of this prove that Allah is in complete control of everything and everything submits to His will. Is it not a clear proof of the fact that this whole universe is the creation of One God and the Kingdom of One Ruler?


Let me know if you find any contradiction in the Quran based on your current understand of science. In my next post, I will address your questions about the hadith related to this subject.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-28-2020, 05:18 PM
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) recited, "That: "And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by `Abdullah.

حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ـ هُوَ التَّيْمِيُّ ـ عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ، قَالَ دَخَلْتُ الْمَسْجِدَ وَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم جَالِسٌ، فَلَمَّا غَرَبَتِ الشَّمْسُ قَالَ ‏"‏ يَا أَبَا ذَرٍّ هَلْ تَدْرِي أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ هَذِهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَإِنَّهَا تَذْهَبُ تَسْتَأْذِنُ فِي السُّجُودِ فَيُؤْذَنُ لَهَا، وَكَأَنَّهَا قَدْ قِيلَ لَهَا ارْجِعِي مِنْ حَيْثُ جِئْتِ‏.‏ فَتَطْلُعُ مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا ‏"‏‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَرَأَ ‏{‏ذَلِكَ مُسْتَقَرٌّ لَهَا‏}‏ فِي قِرَاءَةِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ‏.‏
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 7424
In-book reference: Book 97, Hadith 52
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 9, Book 93, Hadith 520
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/52

Above is the hadith in question, I already discussed in my post # 17 in this thread that why Prophey Muhammad (peace be upon him) asked the initial question, please read post # 17 again.
The critics of this hadith attack it from four angles namely; Sun’s rotation around the earth, Movement of the sun, Prostration of the sun and Sun going under the Throne. So let us examine these one by one in detail:

Sun’s Rotation Around the Earth
The first criticism is the claim that the hadith somehow suggests that the sun is rotating around the earth (geocentric), whereas in reality, it is the earth that is orbiting around the sun (heliocentric) and on its own axis that gives us the impression of sunset and sunrise. This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen. To be more accurate, shouldn’t we say “sunlight has moved away from our location” or “sunlight has come upon our location”? However, we universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun moving is what appears to him from earth.

Movement of the Sun
The second criticism leveled against this hadith is that it suggests that the sun is moving, whereas, it is the earth that is moving. This too deserves the same reply as in the previous section, however, it should also be noted that the sun is not still. Yes, the sun is not moving around the earth but it is moving at a very fast pace through the Milky Way Galaxy and it is taking us along with it.This moving of the sun is stated explicitly on NASA’s own website.
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs...uestion18.html
In fact, our whole solar system is moving through the galaxy.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startsw.../#57027f587ec2
Therefore, the critique of the very movement of the sun being problematic should be rejected. This phenomenon of our whole solar system on a move is in complete harmony with a verse in the Qur’an where Allah says:
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. [Quran 36:40]
Prostration of the Sun
The third criticism against this hadith is that it is speaking about some act of prostration occurring from the sun which is not visible especially with all the modern scientific tools we have at our disposal where the sun is watched all the time. The critics say it is just the earth rotating and the sun itself is not doing anything. This is where belief in the unseen comes into play. It is a type of prostration that we do not understand nor can we comprehend its true nature. It is part of the knowledge of the unseen. The absence of an understanding of something does not necessitate that it does not exist. In fact, in one verse Allah tells us that everything prostrates to Him:
See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawab (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified. And whomsoever Allah disgraces, none can honor him. Verily! Allah does what He wills. [Quran 22:18]
When was the last time we observed the mountains, trees, and moving creatures prostrating to Allah?
We haven’t yet they are doing it in a way that we do not understand.
In one verse Allah is so explicit about this fact that it should suffice as an answer:
The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [Allah] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving. [Qur’an 17:44]
When was the last time we observed these things exalting Allah? Never.
But they are doing so in a way we do not understand.
In another verse, Allah tells us that even thunder exalts Him with praises. Hence, Imam Al-Khattabi said:
It cannot be denied that it [the sun] halts beneath the Throne, in a manner that we cannot see or comprehend; rather this is speaking about a matter of the unseen. So we should not disbelieve in it or ask how it happens, because our knowledge cannot comprehend it.
The problem is that these critics try to give a shape to the prostration in a way that a human being does, but the sun is not a human being. We have our way of prostrating to the Creator and rest of creation has its own way. Much like how different creatures on this planet have their own unique way of communicating with each other. What would small bugs think of our prostration? Do they comprehend what we’re doing? This point requires faith in the revelation that has reached us through His final messenger (peace be upon him).

Sun Going Under the Throne
The last criticism against this hadith is that it claims that the sun goes under the Throne yet we do not see any physical Throne in our modern 24-hour monitoring of the sun. This objection can also be easily resolved by pointing out the fact that the Throne of Allah is part of the unseen as is its location. Therefore, it is not possible for us to physically define its location so that we can actually see the sun prostrating beneath it. We do not posses sufficient enough knowledge of the unseen to be able to unravel its secrets.
In addition, there is a big difference between the inability to conceive something and the inability of something to occur. Just because we cannot imagine or understand something does not mean it cannot occur. One of the many causes of people to have doubts about such religious texts is that they often mix the two and then claim that it contradicts modern science.
Even in the realm of the scientific world, which is constantly changing ideas, there were numerous things in the past which were considered impossible but only later on with advancement were proven to be in fact possible. In other words, even in science when the appropriate tools are not there to be able to conceive or understand something, it can lead to the rejection of its existence even though it may be right in front of us. If this is the case for things in this world, then what of those outside of it?!

When we look at this hadith from the angle that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is describing something from the world of the unseen, it is not difficult to accept it or believe in it. As Muslims, it is part of our duty to believe in the unseen and accept it as true because Allah or His Messenger have said so. For us, authentic religious texts (Qur’an and hadiths) are considered reliable sources. Allah tells us in the beginning of His last revelation sent to mankind:
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah – Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them. [Qur’an 2:2-3]
There are numerous statements in the Qur’an and the hadiths which tell us of things from the unseen that we cannot imagine but we believe to be true because Allah and His Messenger said so: angels recording our deeds, angel of death taking souls, questioning and punishment in the grave, divine decree (qadr), paradise, hell, soul, jinn, power of du’a (supplication), and even existence of Allah. Who has seen any of these things? If everyone see them will they believe, surely they will but it will be too late when we will actually seen the unseen word.

Islam is not against using one's intellect, actually encourages us to use our intellect and look at things around us because that leads to a belief in existence of ONE God. Once that belief is established, next thing is to find the Divine guidance and Quran without any doubt is the final revelation of God because it has been preserved for over 1400+ years and it does not have any contradictions which you may find in the Bible.

I hope this answers all of your questions. The hadith is NOT describing 24/7 cycle of night and day, only stating what happens to the sun when it sets and what makes it to rise the next day.
Reply

Eddy
07-28-2020, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Good brother
Just highlight the part that you misunderstand.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better."
Prophet Muhammad replied:
"It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted
and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)
The highlighted part in bold is actually the only part of the Hadith I'm interested in.
The rest is about the sun final trip (resurrection day)

It is not that I don't understand it, I do think I understand it but by translating it in my head what has been said it creates doubt that this Hadith describes something that only a human who has limited knowledge of astronomy and how the solar system works could describe.

What has been described here?
This is about the trajectory of the sun around planet earth in a 24 hour cycle.
How do we know it is a 24 hour cycle?
Because this happens at sunset and sunset happens every 24 hours.
Prophet Muhammad explains that after sunset the sun prostrates and waits for permission to continue and permission is given.
This tells us that here we are dealing with the sun continuing its rotation around earth until the next sunset (24 hours later)
This is the only part I'm interested in analyzing.
Why?
Because the rest is about the day permission will not be given to the sun to continue and that would be the end (resurrection day).

Now the way I interpret all this is full of scientific errors and that is the problem we face.
This is where Muslims can debunk the so called scientific errors with an alternative explanation.

So now let's go thru the scientific errors.
The first one comes from the initial question from prophet Muhammad. Do you know where the sun goes after sunset?
I already said that if somebody asked me I would simply reply.
What do you mean? The sun doesn't go anywhere after sunset.
The sun is actually in the same exact position in relation with planet earth.
Yes we know the sun is actually moving like all other bodies in the universe but here we are talking in relation to planet earth.
Then I would clarify that the only reason we no longer see the sun is because the earth has rotated.
If we could spin the earth back a little bit we would see that the sun is still there in the exact same position.

Prophet Muhammad instead went ahead and explained that the sun after sunset stops for a little bit (use your favorite translation, prostration, stopping point, rest position, etc) and waits for permission to continue.
How many scientific errors are here?
We already established that the sun doesn't go anywhere at sunset so this movement around earth is another scientific error.
The stopping point obviously is another scientific error but I'm not going to discuss the prostration event because that is impossible to test.
Then the sun is allowed to continue and rise again.
See this is like a chain reaction of errors.
The sun never rotated around the earth, it never went anywhere after sunset, it never rise again after permission.
It is all a big scientific error.
Nothing happens the way it is described by prophet Muhammed.

This is my view from the eyes of an agnostic with no attachment to the religion
Now I would like to see the religious explanation.
A concise and easy to understand would be appreciated.



Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Very long explanation here
Thanks for your extensive explanation.
I'm going to take my time to go thru it and understand it as much as possible.
Reply

Eddy
07-29-2020, 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
using science ( a knowledge which is never certain and keeps changing) to judge Quran is wrong. Its a wrong approach if you are sincerely trying to find the truth.
That is only your opinion which I don't agree with.
As you should have noticed by now I'm not a mad scientist who is measuring every single inch in the Quran trying to find defects.
I'm only using science in a very broad and easy way. I'm only looking for very easy to detect defects that are irrefutable for any person with a minimum education and a healthy amount of common sense.

Now let's go to your explanation of the trajectory of the sun

Sun’s Rotation Around the Earth
The first criticism is the claim that the hadith somehow suggests that the sun is rotating around the earth (geocentric), whereas in reality, it is the earth that is orbiting around the sun (heliocentric) and on its own axis that gives us the impression of sunset and sunrise. This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen. To be more accurate, shouldn’t we say “sunlight has moved away from our location” or “sunlight has come upon our location”? However, we universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun moving is what appears to him from earth.
I wonder if this is the best explanation found in the Islamic world?
Has this been taken from any Islamic Scholar?
Is this your own interpretation?
So you're saying prophet Muhammad was using false information in order to have his message understood.
Is that what you're saying?
You're saying prophet Muhammad was making huge scientific mistakes because his fellow arab in the 7th century wouldn't have been able to understand otherwise.
Is that what you're saying?
In other words you are saying the Quran and Hadith have huge scientific errors but this was done intentionally.
There was a necessary reason for that.
The people at the time wouldn't have understood if the correct information was used.
I see.

Thanks for your explanation and for taking the time to do it.
Reply

Ümit
07-29-2020, 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by Eddy
That is only your opinion which I don't agree with.
As you should have noticed by now I'm not a mad scientist who is measuring every single inch in the Quran trying to find defects.
I'm only using science in a very broad and easy way. I'm only looking for very easy to detect defects that are irrefutable for any person with a minimum education and a healthy amount of common sense.

Now let's go to your explanation of the trajectory of the sun



I wonder if this is the best explanation found in the Islamic world?
Has this been taken from any Islamic Scholar?
Is this your own interpretation?
So you're saying prophet Muhammad was using false information in order to have his message understood.
Is that what you're saying?
You're saying prophet Muhammad was making huge scientific mistakes because his fellow arab in the 7th century wouldn't have been able to understand otherwise.
Is that what you're saying?
In other words you are saying the Quran and Hadith have huge scientific errors but this was done intentionally.
There was a necessary reason for that.
The people at the time wouldn't have understood if the correct information was used.
I see.

Thanks for your explanation and for taking the time to do it.
No.

Technically speaking, the phrase "the Earth is rotating around the sun" is just as wrong as the phrase "the sun is rotating around the Earth". It is a shitty description of the movements of the sun and Earth, because motion is relative.

How come we see with our very own eyes that the sun is rotating around us, but on every video about our solar system we see the Earth rotating around the sun?

The magic words for this problem is the addition of "relative to" to the two phrases:
So the correct way of describing this would be:
The Earth is rotating around the sun relative to the sun
and
The sun is rotating around Earth relative to the Earth.
Both phrases are true.

If we could somehow pin down Amsterdam onto space...so that Amsterdam is fixed and could not move anymore...we would see that the entire universe (not only solar system or galaxy but the entire universe) would rotate around Amsterdam.

It is all about choosing the right reference point.

So in the case of this hadeeth, Mohammeds (sas) reference point was his own perspective (which is pretty logical for the people living in that time period, so more easy to understand), but in this modern day we usually choose our reference point on the center of the sun. That is the only difference.

Conclusion, scientifically Mohammad (sas) is NOT wrong.

another example of a shitty notation:
Can you solve this math problem:

8 : 2 ( 2 + 2 ) = ?

If your answer "16" or worse...anything else other than "1", then I don't expect from you to understand this whole subject.
because according to math rules we should work out the brackets first: 2+2=4
and then we should work from left to right:
8 : 2 * 4 = 16
However we must realise that 2(2+2) belongs together...so the real answer should be:
8 : ( 2 * 4 ) = 1
@Eddy:

Ehm, there really is not much in this hadeeth to scientifically analyze.
let us take another example of the Quran:
verse 22:18:
Have you not seen that to Allah prostrate themselves whoever are in the heavens, and whoever are in the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and (all) beasts and many of mankind? And to many torment will (come) true; and whomever Allah degrades, then none will honor him. Surely Allah performs whatever He decides. A prostration is to be performed here


I hope you will not try to analyse this verse by saying "hey wait a minute, trees and mountains do not even move...how can they prostrate? this is a scientific error in the Quraan"

Do you really think we don't know that trees and mountains don't move?
This verse proves that trees and mountains do not prostrate in the way humans do...nor in the way humans can observe.

So, with all respect, I really do not understand what you want to analyze scientifically...but I think you are trying to tighten a screw with a hammer if you understand what I'm saying.
Reply

Good brother
07-29-2020, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by Eddy
The highlighted part in bold is actually the only part of the Hadith I'm interested in.
The rest is about the sun final trip (resurrection day)

It is not that I don't understand it, I do think I understand it but by translating it in my head what has been said it creates doubt that this Hadith describes something that only a human who has limited knowledge of astronomy and how the solar system works could describe.

What has been described here?
This is about the trajectory of the sun around planet earth in a 24 hour cycle.
How do we know it is a 24 hour cycle?
Because this happens at sunset and sunset happens every 24 hours.
Straw man fallacy

You add your own flavour to the text.

Nothing wrong about talking to someone at sunset about the sun.
Prophet Muhammad explains that after sunset the sun prostrates and waits for permission to continue and permission is given.
This tells us that here we are dealing with the sun continuing its rotation around earth until the next sunset (24 hours later)
Prostrate means to submit to its Creator as explained earlier. Muslims believe that all creatures submit to Allah.

The state of taskheer is permenant throughout 24 hours.

Whenever Allah orders that the usual routine is interrupted, it will. The usual routine is For a term (decreed).
This is the only part I'm interested in analyzing.
Why?
Because the rest is about the day permission will not be given to the sun to continue and that would be the end (resurrection day).

Now the way I interpret all this is full of scientific errors and that is the problem we face.
This is where Muslims can debunk the so called scientific errors with an alternative explanation.

So now let's go thru the scientific errors.
The first one comes from the initial question from prophet Muhammad. Do you know where the sun goes after sunset?
I already said that if somebody asked me I would simply reply.
What do you mean? The sun doesn't go anywhere after sunset.
It goes to submit to God will. Again, this is a permenant state of taskheer.
The sun is actually in the same exact position in relation with planet earth.
Wrong
Due to earth's rotation, it is not.
Yes we know the sun is actually moving like all other bodies in the universe but here we are talking in relation to planet earth.
Then I would clarify that the only reason we no longer see the sun is because the earth has rotated.
Your second statement refuted your first one.
If we could spin the earth back a little bit we would see that the sun is still there in the exact same position.
But we couldn't.
Prophet Muhammad instead went ahead and explained that the sun after sunset stops for a little bit (use your favorite translation, prostration, stopping point, rest position, etc) and waits for permission to continue.
Straw man argumnt

Nowhere he says it stops and prostrate human-like.
How many scientific errors are here?
None

The stopping point obviously is another scientific error but I'm not going to discuss the prostration event because that is impossible to test.
It's explained perfectly in the hadith that the sun will rise from the west.
Whenever Allah orders that the usual routine is interrupted, it will. The usual routine is For a term (decreed). and eventually, the sun will rise from the west.


Then the sun is allowed to continue and rise again.
See this is like a chain reaction of errors.
Attachment 6940

The term sunrise and sunset were used and still used today in scientific papers. Our knowledge of its mechanism is irrelevant.

Scientists also pointed out that sun could eventually rise from the west !!
sunrisewest 1 -
https://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...h-become-south

Notice how they used the same vocabulary used by Prophet Muhammad!

The sun never rotated around the earth, it never went anywhere after sunset, it never rise again after permission.
Straw man argument.

No one is talking about the sun that rotates around the earth except you throughout this thread.


As we have seen everything is explained perfectly. Alhamdullillah
Reply

'Abdullah
07-29-2020, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
That is only your opinion which I don't agree with.
As you should have noticed by now I'm not a mad scientist who is measuring every single inch in the Quran trying to find defects.
I'm only using science in a very broad and easy way. I'm only looking for very easy to detect defects that are irrefutable for any person with a minimum education and a healthy amount of common sense.

Now let's go to your explanation of the trajectory of the sun

I wonder if this is the best explanation found in the Islamic world?
Has this been taken from any Islamic Scholar?
Is this your own interpretation?
So you're saying prophet Muhammad was using false information in order to have his message understood.
Is that what you're saying?
You're saying prophet Muhammad was making huge scientific mistakes because his fellow arab in the 7th century wouldn't have been able to understand otherwise.
Is that what you're saying?
In other words you are saying the Quran and Hadith have huge scientific errors but this was done intentionally.
There was a necessary reason for that.
The people at the time wouldn't have understood if the correct information was used.
I see.

Thanks for your explanation and for taking the time to do it.
Below is what I wrote & I will bold some important points:
Sun’s Rotation Around the Earth
The first criticism is the claim that the hadith somehow suggests that the sun is rotating around the earth (geocentric), whereas in reality, it is the earth that is orbiting around the sun (heliocentric) and on its own axis that gives us the impression of sunset and sunrise. This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen. To be more accurate, shouldn’t we say “sunlight has moved away from our location” or “sunlight has come upon our location”? However, we universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun moving is what appears to him from earth.
First of all notice that point of reference used to speak about the motion of sun was the earth and in that reference it is a true scientific statement which is even used by NASA as I mentioned in my previous post and gave reference to NASA website.

Secondly, it should be borne in mind that the argument of the Qur’an and the noble prophets through the creations in the heavens and the earth and the major changes that occur therein is limited to the extent that could be rationalized by every human being by virtue of bare observation and elementary deliberation. Technical refinements of philosophy and mathematics that can be resolved by experts in the field alone are not the material on which argument of this nature is based; nor are people invited to deliberate on these. The reason is simple. Believing in Allah the Almighty and acting in accordance with His message is the duty of every human being- learned or illiterate, man or woman, urbanite or villager, dweller of some mountain or island. Therefore, prophetic teachings are synchronized with the level of perception, reason and understanding of common people that need no technical expertise.

Had the Prophet –peace and blessings of Allah be upon him- through divine guidance made the point in a way that could not be comprehended by his immediate listeners, it would have killed the purpose of it, because their guidance and instruction into righteousness was certainly the sole way message could reach us in this age. Looking back, we can now easily understand the proverbial sense of it and appreciate it, but it wouldn’t have been anyway possible for the people in the seventh century to look ahead into the future. For us the message remains as great and relevant as ever because even though we have the knowledge that it is rather the Earth that revolves around sun but what's more important is to realize that the grand design and the fine-tuning of the whole celestial system including the sun is such that it speaks of an Ultimate Power which is obeyed by the whole Universe. And this is what the essence of the message is.


With that said, I do realize that there are few things which I did not touch upon & those may help to clarify these confusions. For example, I did not explain what the 'Arsh of Allah ( Divine Throne) is ?

The ‘arsh of Allah as understood from the Qur’an and Sunnah is that it surrounds all that we know as the masses of the land and expanses of the sky. All these masses and expanses along with planets and stars, without any exceptions, are enclosed within the ‘arsh- and the ‘arsh of Allah holds the entire cosmic universe inside itself. If seen from this angle, the sun is, in all conditions and all the times, simply under the ‘arsh.
And when experience bears out that the time the sun is setting at one place, it is also rising at another. Therefore, no moment of the sun is free of either rising or setting. Thus, the being of the sun under the ‘arsh is also perennial under all states and so is its setting and rising. Therefore, the outcome of the subject mentioned in the Hadith is that the sun, in its entire orbit, remains in the state of prostration before Allah under the ‘arsh, that is, the sun moves under Allah's permission and command. And this cycle will stay activated right through the proximity of the last Day of Resurrection until comes the time for the emergence of the sign that the Day of Resurrection is very close. When this happens, the sun will, rather than start its next orbit, be commanded to turn back - and then, it will rise from the west. At that time, the door of repentance will be closed and no declaration of faith or repentance from anyone shall remain acceptable at that hour.
In short, this particularity of the setting of the sun, its passing under the ‘arsh, the making of prostration there and the incidence of seeking permission for the next orbit mentioned in the narration being studied is simply a similitude in consonance with the mores of effective prophetic teaching and in terms of common perception.
Neither does it make it necessary that it performs prostration on some land surface like a human being, nor does it make it necessary that there be some pause in the movement of the sun at the time of making a prostration, nor does it mean that it goes to some particular place doing only one prostration during a day and night, and nor that it goes beneath the ‘arsh after setting only. But, at this time of great alternation, when people are seeing that the sun is receding away from them, what has been done is that they have been appraised of the truth of what is happening in the manner of a similitude while the reality is that this whole thing is happening because of the sun moving beneath the ‘arsh in subservience to the Divine command - the sun does not have any capability or power of its own. So, the way, at this time, the people of Madinah were convinced that the sun would now make its prostration and seek permission for the next orbit, similarly, the message was relayed onwards to every place where the sun would be setting and everyone there would stand advised of the lesson thereof. Thus, the truth of the matter turns out to be that the sun at every moment while moving on its orbit keeps offering prostration before Allah the Almighty and keeps seeking permission to move ahead - and it needs no pause or break to make prostration or seek permission. Following this submission, there remains no doubt concerning the Hadith quoted, neither in terms of observations, nor in terms of the rules of astronomy.
Reply

Eddy
07-29-2020, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Good brother
Straw man fallacy

You add your own flavour to the text.
And what is wrong about adding my own flavour to the text?
In the English language ii is called "PARAPHRASING"
Ever heard of that word?
Le me school you then:
On many occasions a phrase is written in such style that it makes it difficult to understand under the current conditions.
What do we do then?
Well an option very often used is "paraphrasing" the text into a cleaner and easier to understand version.
Got it?
That in no way can be considered a "Straw Man Fallacy"
A straw Man Fallacy creates a false argument and then attacks it.
Paraphrasing doesn't change the original meaning of the argument, it just makes cleaner and clearer.

The rest of your post is conducted in pretty much the same manner, making meaningless corrections and childish observations.
If I say the sun is in the same position in relation with planet earth but now we cannot see it anymore because the earth rotated.
You jump and say "that is incorrect"
Then on the next phrase I clarify that I didn't mean exactly in the same position because I understand both the sun and planet earth are moving all the time.
Then you jumped again and said that now my second statement is contradicting the first one.
Are you serious?
Take a pill and relax.
Are you here to have a meaningful conversation or ti be a total --- ----.?
I believe is the latter so I have no interest in exchanging posts with you.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-29-2020, 09:05 PM
Eddy is our guest here, so please let’s try to be respectful and understand that he is not a Muslim and looks at things differently. Also appreciate that he has come to ask these questions on this forum for clarification and I am sure that there is no ill intention.
It’s month of Dhul Hijja and we are in the sacred days of Hajj, so let’s overlook each others mistakes and try to help Eddy in removing his doubts about Islam. our job is only to answer his questions to the best of our ability, Guidance is only in the hands of Allah and He guides whom He wills.
May Allah guide him and help him see the truth. Ameen!
Reply

Ümit
07-30-2020, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
And what is wrong about adding my own flavour to the text?
In the English language ii is called "PARAPHRASING"
Ever heard of that word?
Le me school you then:
On many occasions a phrase is written in such style that it makes it difficult to understand under the current conditions.
What do we do then?
Well an option very often used is "paraphrasing" the text into a cleaner and easier to understand version.
Got it?
That in no way can be considered a "Straw Man Fallacy"
A straw Man Fallacy creates a false argument and then attacks it.
Paraphrasing doesn't change the original meaning of the argument, it just makes cleaner and clearer.

The rest of your post is conducted in pretty much the same manner, making meaningless corrections and childish observations.
If I say the sun is in the same position in relation with planet earth but now we cannot see it anymore because the earth rotated.
You jump and say "that is incorrect"
Then on the next phrase I clarify that I didn't mean exactly in the same position because I understand both the sun and planet earth are moving all the time.
Then you jumped again and said that now my second statement is contradicting the first one.
Are you serious?
Take a pill and relax.
Are you here to have a meaningful conversation or ti be a total --- ----.?
I believe is the latter so I have no interest in exchanging posts with you.
That is quite wrong Eddy,
For generations and generations we managed to preserve the original text in its pure form. we do not allow translations or any other modifications to the original text to avoid adding even the slightiest of this "own flavor to the text".
So, paraphrasing is a no go. you can explain a verse by first quoting the text and then by giving the explanation to it...but paraphrasing like you are doing is changing the meaning of the text and that is not OK.
So basically, you DO create a false argument and attack it...in your very own words a straw man fallacy.

In my last post to you I proved to you that the text "prostrating of things and creatures" in the Quraan is not in the same way as "prostrating of some humans". So, if you are capable of using your logic...you should conclude that the sun is also an inanimate thing and the prostration of the sun is something different than the prostration of humans.

Therefore...strawman fallacy...

Like Abdullah said, you are our guest here. we will be as patient as possible we can be and try to answer your questions, but we have to be fair and give you the answers as it is.
Besides, we learn a lot from you guys, because you usually ask the critical questions that none of us would come up with, and that forces us to dig deeper in our religion and start thinking about the matter, were we otherwise never would stumble upon.

So we DO appreciate your visit here.
Reply

Scimitar
07-30-2020, 02:11 PM


watch this^
Reply

Eddy
07-30-2020, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
So basically, you DO create a false argument and attack it...in your very own words a straw man fallacy.
Let's go over the text in question.
The following text followed the original Hadith which was highlighted in bold to show the part I am talking about.
Then I wrote:
What has been described here?
This is about the trajectory of the sun around planet earth in a 24 hour cycle.
How do we know it is a 24 hour cycle?
Because this happens at sunset and sunset happens every 24 hours.

I think there is no paraphrasing nor straw man fallacy here.
Here is the part of the Hadith in question:

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better."
Prophet Muhammad replied:
"It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted

So when I say "this is about the trajectory of the sun around planet earth I refer to "It goes (i.e. travels)"
Then I say it is describing a 24 hour cycle because this happens at sunset and sunset happens every 24 hours.
It is a cycle around earth because it continues at sunrise and ends on the next sunset. (permission is given)
Remember the original question from Prophet Muhammad was "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?
Prophet Muhammad is not talking about this specific sunset but about sunset in general.

Sorry I don't see any "Straw Man Fallacy" here.

You said in your previous post "there really is not much in this hadeeth to scientifically analyze."
I disagree:
This is what has been in contention:
Prophet Muhammad's question: "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
This is a scientific error because prophet Muhammed assumes the sun goes somewhere at the time of sunset.
The sun doesn't change its trajectory at all at the time of sunset.
This is a scientific error because the sun's natural trajectory is in no way linked with sunset.
Sunset doesn't trigger any change in the sun's trajectory.
We could also say that sunset is not a real time unless we add a location and date.
Example:
Tomorrow at sunset in New York City at latitude X longitud Y we will blow the whistle.

So to say the sun at the time of sunset ""It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted"
It is scientifically speaking an incomplete and inaccurate statement. Sunset where?

Just to make sure, I'm not questioning the prostration event and how that happens.

By the way Abdullah in one of his latest posts explained the controversial parts of this hadith.
I don't know if you necessarily agree with his explanation because it seems to be his personal view on it.

As always I appreciate your input.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-30-2020, 03:57 PM
The part you call as scientific error has already been answered in my previous post. Perhaps you did not get a chance to look at. Copy and pasting the relevant content again:

The ‘arsh of Allah as understood from the Qur’an and Sunnah is that it surrounds all that we know as the masses of the land and expanses of the sky. All these masses and expanses along with planets and stars, without any exceptions, are enclosed within the ‘arsh- and the ‘arsh of Allah holds the entire cosmic universe inside itself. If seen from this angle, the sun is, in all conditions and all the times, simply under the ‘arsh.
And when experience bears out that the time the sun is setting at one place, it is also rising at another. Therefore, no moment of the sun is free of either rising or setting. Thus, the being of the sun under the ‘arsh is also perennial under all states and so is its setting and rising. Therefore, the outcome of the subject mentioned in the Hadith is that the sun, in its entire orbit, remains in the state of prostration before Allah under the ‘arsh, that is, the sun moves under Allah's permission and command. And this cycle will stay activated right through the proximity of the last Day of Resurrection until comes the time for the emergence of the sign that the Day of Resurrection is very close. When this happens, the sun will, rather than start its next orbit, be commanded to turn back - and then, it will rise from the west. At that time, the door of repentance will be closed and no declaration of faith or repentance from anyone shall remain acceptable at that hour.
In short, this particularity of the setting of the sun, its passing under the ‘arsh, the making of prostration there and the incidence of seeking permission for the next orbit mentioned in the narration being studied is simply a similitude in consonance with the mores of effective prophetic teaching and in terms of common perception.
Neither does it make it necessary that it performs prostration on some land surface like a human being, nor does it make it necessary that there be some pause in the movement of the sun at the time of making a prostration, nor does it mean that it goes to some particular place doing only one prostration during a day and night, and nor that it goes beneath the ‘arsh after setting only. But, at this time of great alternation, when people are seeing that the sun is receding away from them, what has been done is that they have been appraised of the truth of what is happening in the manner of a similitude while the reality is that this whole thing is happening because of the sun moving beneath the ‘arsh in subservience to the Divine command - the sun does not have any capability or power of its own. So, the way, at this time, the people of Madinah were convinced that the sun would now make its prostration and seek permission for the next orbit, similarly, the message was relayed onwards to every place where the sun would be setting and everyone there would stand advised of the lesson thereof. Thus, the truth of the matter turns out to be that the sun at every moment while moving on its orbit keeps offering prostration before Allah the Almighty and keeps seeking permission to move ahead - and it needs no pause or break to make prostration or seek permission. Following this submission, there remains no doubt concerning the Hadith quoted, neither in terms of observations, nor in terms of the rules of astronomy.
Reply

Eddy
07-30-2020, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
The part you call as scientific error has already been answered in my previous post. Perhaps you did not get a chance to look at. Copy and pasting the relevant content again:
Look at the end of my last post addressed to Umit, I mentioned that you responded to the controversial parts of the hadith in what appears to be your personal opinion.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-30-2020, 04:55 PM
Which part you think is my personal view? Sun rises and sets at different times at different places (24 hour cycles). Which should not be considered as personal view, it is well established fact both through Quran and modern day scientific knowledge.
Or is it that ‘Arsh of Allah encompasses everything? Which is not my personal view, it’s a well know teaching of both Quran and Sunnah and if you need I can provide references for that.
Or Is it something else?
Reply

Eddy
07-30-2020, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
Which part you think is my personal view?
This part:

Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
Is that your personal opinion or your personal view?
Reply

'Abdullah
07-30-2020, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Is that your personal opinion or your personal view?
I am not sure why you think it’s my personal opinion. We universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth. Remember the motion is relative.

The prophets do not come to teach astronomy. Their sole aim is to make people understand that everything in the universe obeys Allah and so should the humans. For this reason they allude to how humans perceive the things and it actually does appear that sun moves across the horizon.

Islam is a universal religion and is a guidance for every one for all times until the day of judgement. What do you think literacy rate was in 7th century? Even prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon him) could not read or write. In 1950’s world literacy rate was 55% which is increased to 86% in 2015. Still in many parts of the world ( Africa and other third world countries) literacy rate is as low as 70%. Do you really think they would comprehend a highly complex Divine message or a simple message which is easy to understand for everyone? This the reason, prophetic teachings are synchronized with the level of perception, reason and understanding of common people that need no technical expertise. I hope you can understand and appreciate this simplicity is Islamic teachings. When muslims say we believe in one God, we mean exactly that. It is surely not as complex as the concept of trinity which no one has been able to comprehend yet and ironically is the basic teaching of Christianity.
Reply

Ümit
07-30-2020, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
This part:



Is that your personal opinion or your personal view?
again and again...motion is relative...saying that the sun rotates around the earth relative to the earth is technically NOT wrong.

if you travel with a constant speed through a void...and there is nothing to orientate on...there is no way you can tell whether you are moving or not...so saying the sun mpving from sunrise to sunset is NOT a personal view...it is basic observation in its pure form.
Reply

Eddy
07-30-2020, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
again and again...motion is relative...saying that the sun rotates around the earth relative to the earth is technically NOT wrong.
Scientifically speaking, yes, it is wrong no matter the way you want to use the word relative.
It doesn't matter, it is what it is. The earth rotates around the sun and the sun doesn't rotate around the earth.
If you want to talk about perceptions that's another thing.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-30-2020, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Scientifically speaking, yes, it is wrong no matter the way you want to use the word relative.
It doesn't matter, it is what it is. The earth rotates around the sun and the sun doesn't rotate around the earth.
If you want to talk about perceptions that's another thing.
Please revisit basic physics, subjects such as relative motion and relative velocity. It’s frustrating that one talks about scientific errors and have very little to no knowledge of basic science.
Second, none of us have said that sun rotates around the earth. Quran’s POV has already been stated in my previous posts and that is everything revolves in its own orbit ( stated in one of the verses we have been discussing:

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. [Quran 36:40]
Reply

Ümit
07-30-2020, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
Please revisit basic physics, subjects such as relative motion and relative velocity. It’s frustrating that one talks about scientific errors and have very little to no knowledge of basic science.
exactly...in all videos you see the Earth rotating around the sun because they always CHOOSE their reference point on the sun...that is the easiest way to explain the path of all celestial bodies in our solar system.
but it basically all comes down to your choice of reference point. look it up if you do not believe...it is basic knowledge.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-30-2020, 08:48 PM
I have previously stated that in 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the center of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy.

So guess what it was science which was wrong and Quran was right. It’s an irony that now someone comes and says that Quran is wrong and science has been right? That’s the reason I did not like the subject of this thread to begin with. It’s an insult to compare Divine message ( Quran) with man’s own observations which are limited and have been proved wrong throughout human history.
Reply

Ümit
07-30-2020, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Scientifically speaking, yes, it is wrong no matter the way you want to use the word relative.
It doesn't matter, it is what it is. The earth rotates around the sun and the sun doesn't rotate around the earth.
If you want to talk about perceptions that's another thing.
if I am wrong...then please explain to me...why oh why does every single human on this Earth makes exacly the same observation that the sun is moving from sunrise to sunset? how come our own observations contradict science then?

how come you believe something totally opposite then what you witness? why then do you buy that nonsence science if I am wrong. does it sound logical to you that you are told to believe something else then what you are observing?
Reply

Saira Khan
07-30-2020, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Hi all, I'm new in this forum and this is my first post.I grew up a Christian but I'm now more of an agnostic.All my morals and culture come from Christianity but I have always been in doubt about the existence of God.
I like to challenge parts of the religion that don't make sense to me.
Muslims believe in the same God (Allah) but they don't believe in Jesus as God nor in the Trinity.
I often read Christians and Islamic apologists criticizing each other's religions.What I do is a take those critics and try to find out if there is any truth in them.If somebody criticizes Islam I try to reach Islamic sources to find out if the critic is valid.
This next challenge originated by listening to a video from an ex muslim who calls himself "(name removed)".
He claims the Quran is full of scientific errors and this is one of them.
He refers to Quran 36 verse 38 specifically.
Here is the english translation:Quran 36

37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

There are two different interpretations as far as I know.
Verse 38 refers to the daily sunset and the sun prostrating waiting for permission to rise again
orVerse 38 refers to the sun going into the end of its life and therefore the end of human life (resurrection day).

I found a hadith which seems to clearly show this whole set describes a 24-hour cycle (day and night) and verse 38 "stopping point" refers to the daily Sun stop after sunset (where the sun prostrates beneath the Throne) as mentioned in the same hadith.
The hadith continues:"then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it."So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

This is the hadith I'm talking about:

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

Does this proves the Quran has scientific errors and this is one of them?
How else you interpret this passage?
Prophet Muhammad could have commited scientific errors but not Allah and this verse is from Allah although the explanation is from Muhammad.

Challenging a religion to find the truth is not welcome in certain forums so if that is the case in this forum please disregard my whole post and I will not pursue the discussion.
Eddy, welcome to the forum.
To your question I will say that you cannot understand it because you might not be a master in the field of astrology or cosmology or whatever like that and also you might not be master in linguistics, specially in Arabic as a language. And don’t expect that every Muslim will be a master astronaut or a perfect linguistic in Arabic for this particular question. What we consider about Science and Quran is that Science is a traveler and Quran is the right path to destination. Science is still exploring the truths mentioned in the Quran, and when the experts in different fields read Quran, they revert to Islam and I can give you hundreds of examples where experts in the field of embryology, astrology, deep oceans, mathematics, physics and so on have reverted to Islam after reading the Quran about their own field of expertise. The point is only when they read Quran and make comparisons with what you call as Science.
Coming back to your question, your major objection seems to be on the wordings of hadith of the Prophet (PBUH). So please note that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun motion is what appears to him from earth.
You are not even a free thinker because you are talking about errors in sculpture while your question went over the wordings of hadith.
You only deserve to think and throw such question only and only when you are master or an expert in that field and I know that today there is literature available on internet about astrology which if you start only reading today, you cannot finish that for the rest of your life. The example which you wrote that of the lamp,shows that you are totally ignorant in the field of astrology and cosmology at least. So your question is a lay man’s question.
Secondly, if you don’t understand the things which you can see, how can I expect you to understand the Unseen? Though in case of Viruses for example, you do very fairly believe in Viruses although I can bet that you never have seen a Virus yourself but only its signs and symptoms.
When you read about cosmology and the star things and you find that your whole earth is like a dot in the universe, and even the Sun and the milky way you are living in is a dot as compared to the Universe, then come again and ask the same question again. Of course you can skip the Multiverse for the time being.
Stay blessed.
Reply

Eddy
07-31-2020, 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abdullah
the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen.

To be more accurate, shouldn’t we say “sunlight has moved away from our location” or “sunlight has come upon our location”? However, we universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth.

Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun moving is what appears to him from earth.

Originally Posted by Saira Khan
the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth. This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen.

Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun motion is what appears to him from earth.
I see so you guys are copying and pasting information from who knows where.
Can you tell us a least where are pasting this information from?
Well the point is that obviously you share the same views with the person who really wrote that text.

This is actually the most important text written by Abdullah because it answers the main point of this thread.

This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.

I wonder how popular is this view?
Maybe some of you can elaborate.
The problem I have with this part is that Abdullah says "Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist."
He is speaking as if he knew in what context Prophet Muhammad was speaking.How does he know in what context Prophet Muhammad was speaking.
I don't know if this is actually how the majority of Muslims think.
I don't know.

Thanks as always for your input.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-31-2020, 04:35 AM
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) recited, "That: "And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by `Abdullah.

حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ـ هُوَ التَّيْمِيُّ ـ عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ، قَالَ دَخَلْتُ الْمَسْجِدَ وَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم جَالِسٌ، فَلَمَّا غَرَبَتِ الشَّمْسُ قَالَ ‏"‏ يَا أَبَا ذَرٍّ هَلْ تَدْرِي أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ هَذِهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَإِنَّهَا تَذْهَبُ تَسْتَأْذِنُ فِي السُّجُودِ فَيُؤْذَنُ لَهَا، وَكَأَنَّهَا قَدْ قِيلَ لَهَا ارْجِعِي مِنْ حَيْثُ جِئْتِ‏.‏ فَتَطْلُعُ مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا ‏"‏‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَرَأَ ‏{‏ذَلِكَ مُسْتَقَرٌّ لَهَا‏}‏ فِي قِرَاءَةِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ‏.‏
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 7424
In-book reference: Book 97, Hadith 52
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 9, Book 93, Hadith 520

Obviously there were no space shuttles in 7th century. Prophet ( peace be upon him) and his companion are discussing a common observation which you and I see on daily basis. Don’t we see that sun rises and sets on daily basis even though we know that sun never sets or rises and still we observe this phenomena on daily basis when we look from earth. Now if you go outside into the space, then you are changing your point of reference and as a result will have different observation.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-31-2020, 05:31 AM
Originally Posted by Eddy
The objective:
Focus in the 24 hour cycle (day and night),The cycle that begins when Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again.
Only on the 24 hour cycle and on prophet Muhammad's initial question.
Where does the sun goes after sunset?
I don't think anybody has answered why prophet Muhammad asked this question.
If he knew how the solar system works then he shouldn't have asked this question because makes no sense.
The question makes no sense and the answer doesn't either.
Of course speaking according to what we know now.
An easy way out is to say is all figurative speech or a metaphor but that can be taken as a cop-out.

I understand it must be frustration answering my questions but believe me I do appreciate it.
Seems like you have changed your stance quite a bit, early on it was only an attempt to understand 24 hour cycle ( day/night) and since that has been answered, you are having hard time to accept that there is no scientific error in the verses of Quran and the Hadith in question.

Is this the only thing in your way of accepting Islam or there are more questions?
Reply

Ümit
07-31-2020, 05:37 AM
Let us try something different and hope you will understand this time:

We have a fan on our desk and it works on batteries.
If you turn the fan on your observation could be: the blades are turning clockwise at the rate of 100 RPM.
Now grab the fan by the blades and lift it up. if the motor of the fan is strong enough, you will now observe the foot and casing rotating counter clockwise at the rate of max 100 RPM...right?

Now let us say, the fan is not on the desk floating around in a void and there is nothing else in the distance to orientate on.
In this case, the ant sitting on the casing of the fan (Ant C) will make the observation that the blade will rotate with 100 RPM CW.
The ant sitting on the blade looking in the other direction (Ant B) will make the observation that the casing will rotate with 100RPM also CW.

the ant floating alone in the distante looking at the fan will have one of the next observation depending on the situation:
1 he either shares the same observation as one of the ants B or C;
2 he sees the casing and blades both rotating (for example case 50 RPM CCM and blade 50 RPM CW) or (case 50 RPM CW and blade 150 RPM CW);
3 he can even see the case and blade both rotating on a totally different axis or a combination of these observations.

It gets more complicated if Ant A is also somehow rotating....because who will know that if there is no orientation point?

Originally Posted by Eddy
I see so you guys are copying and pasting information from who knows where.
Can you tell us a least where are pasting this information from?
Well the point is that obviously you share the same views with the person who really wrote that text.

This is actually the most important text written by Abdullah because it answers the main point of this thread.

This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.

I wonder how popular is this view?
Maybe some of you can elaborate.
The problem I have with this part is that Abdullah says "Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist."
He is speaking as if he knew in what context Prophet Muhammad was speaking.How does he know in what context Prophet Muhammad was speaking.
I don't know if this is actually how the majority of Muslims think.
I don't know.

Thanks as always for your input.
So, lets get back to our example with the fan and the ants...
if you hear one of the ants say: "the casing is rising on my left and setting on my right", can you determine then which of the Ants A B or C could have said that?
I think it is certain that it was Ant B right?

in the same way we can say that that Muhammad was speaking in the context of how things appear to be from Earth.
It is nothing but logic.

I am asking you again...just look at the sun...make your own observations...now tell me with a straight face that you do not see the sun rotating around you.
Reply

xboxisdead
07-31-2020, 06:43 AM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Hi all, I'm new in this forum and this is my first post.I grew up a Christian but I'm now more of an agnostic.All my morals and culture come from Christianity but I have always been in doubt about the existence of God.
I like to challenge parts of the religion that don't make sense to me.
Muslims believe in the same God (Allah) but they don't believe in Jesus as God nor in the Trinity.
I often read Christians and Islamic apologists criticizing each other's religions.What I do is a take those critics and try to find out if there is any truth in them.If somebody criticizes Islam I try to reach Islamic sources to find out if the critic is valid.
This next challenge originated by listening to a video from an ex muslim who calls himself "(name removed)".
He claims the Quran is full of scientific errors and this is one of them.
He refers to Quran 36 verse 38 specifically.
Here is the english translation:Quran 36

37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

There are two different interpretations as far as I know.
Verse 38 refers to the daily sunset and the sun prostrating waiting for permission to rise again
orVerse 38 refers to the sun going into the end of its life and therefore the end of human life (resurrection day).

I found a hadith which seems to clearly show this whole set describes a 24-hour cycle (day and night) and verse 38 "stopping point" refers to the daily Sun stop after sunset (where the sun prostrates beneath the Throne) as mentioned in the same hadith.
The hadith continues:"then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it."So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

This is the hadith I'm talking about:

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

Does this proves the Quran has scientific errors and this is one of them?
How else you interpret this passage?
Prophet Muhammad could have commited scientific errors but not Allah and this verse is from Allah although the explanation is from Muhammad.

Challenging a religion to find the truth is not welcome in certain forums so if that is the case in this forum please disregard my whole post and I will not pursue the discussion.
It only takes a non-Muslim to ask such question. Let me be clear, Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) is absolute. Meaning he is perfect and only HIM is perfect. No such thing as a perfect man or perfect woman or a man being perfectionist or a woman being perfectionist. In fact anyone who seeks to be a perfectionist is a large sign of how defective he or she is and how imperfect he or she is. NOT even the prophets are perfect, only Allah (subhananu Wa Talaa) is absolute and perfect. Qura'an is his words, he created math, he created languages, he created virus, bacteria, he created all viruses even COVID-19, he created animals, birds, he created air, he created ozone layer, he created planets, sun, mercury, venus, all the planets. He created the black hole, he created dust, he created everything. He created physics, he created the male and he created the female. He created everything you see in front of you..perfect math between sun and Earth, between planets, everything he created for purpose and with reason and nothing he creates for fun and play. The science you are so attached too is actually trying to reach or catch up to Islam and not the other away around. I mean now the scientists discovered that the male and female have different brains and they come from two different worlds, Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) already said in the Quraan that the male is not like the female. Science now only early in the 1900's discovered the egg and sperm, Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) already talked about the sperm and how the baby is created and develop on the womb. We Muslims know all of this already before science in the 1900 or 2000's tells us what we know..in fact it even further confirm our believe and the power of Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) and make us even stronger believer.

Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) is perfect. He makes no mistake. The qura'an is word of Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) so it is perfect and there are not contradictions or mistake because Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) is perfect his words are perfect and he created science so there are no errors in his creation because Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) never makes mistake or error. To believe otherwise make you a disbeliever. Simple as put.
Reply

Ümit
07-31-2020, 06:53 AM
[QUOTE=Eddy;3030444]The objective:Focus in the 24 hour cycle (day and night),The cycle that begins when Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again.Only on the 24 hour cycle and on prophet Muhammad's initial question.Where does the sun goes after sunset?I don't think anybody has answered why prophet Muhammad asked this question.
Originally Posted by Eddy
Muhammad sas asked this question for education purposes. He used this question as an introduction to the information he wanted to share with his pupils.
If he knew how the solar system works then he shouldn't have asked this question because makes no sense.
Originally Posted by Eddy
For you it makes no sense...because you are still ignoring to accept several scientific facts...for us it makes perfectly sense.
The question makes no sense and the answer doesn't either.
Originally Posted by Eddy
Again...and again....and again...you cannot observe this as a human. so it is a given information we have to accept.
Of course speaking according to what we know now.An easy way out is to say is all figurative speech or a metaphor but that can be taken as a cop-out.[QUOTE=Eddy;3030444]It is NOT figurative speech nor a methaphor...it is meant litterally but in a way you and I cannot observe...but nvm I am not expecting from you to understand this.
Originally Posted by Eddy
I understand it must be frustration answering my questions but believe me I do appreciate it.
The frustration is not about answering you questions...it is more about finding a way to make you understand the answers.to find a way to make you understand that science is not a substitution of religion...but science is limited...and there are things happening in the world that science cannot grasp.so religion is an extention of science and they do not contradict each other.It is a huge and complicated task to make you realize that.
Reply

Eddy
07-31-2020, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullah
"Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist."
So prophet Muhammad is speaking in the context of how things appear.
The way things appear is not the way really are as you pointed out.
So you are admitting that prophet Muhammad is being scientifically wrong when describing the trajectory of the sun.
Yes, he wanted to convey his message to people who wouldn't understand otherwise.
So because he is communicating to an ignorant person he is giving a scientifically incorrect message to the rest of humanity.
Am I correct?
My question to you.
Wouldn't be easier just to teach the facts as they really are and hope these ignorant people would understand?
Prophet Muhammad didn't have a problem telling the ignorant person that the sun prostrates underneath Allah's throne waiting for permission to rise again.
Do you think the ignorant person had no problem understanding this prostration thing but he wouldn't understand sunset is caused by planet earth rotation?
I find that hard to believe.
The fact is that according to your interpretation the Quran and Hadith contain scientific errors.
Now I don't want to make your opinion a true representation of all the Islamic world.
I don't know if you are a scholar.
Are you?
Is your view on this matter the view of all (or at least most) Muslims out of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world?
Reply

Eddy
07-31-2020, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
The frustration is not about answering you questions...it is more about finding a way to make you understand the answers.to find a way to make you understand that science is not a substitution of religion...but science is limited...and there are things happening in the world that science cannot grasp.so religion is an extention of science and they do not contradict each other.It is a huge and complicated task to make you realize that.
Ümit, don't worry, your message is being understood, I'm a well educated man.
You don't need to be giving me sophisticated examples in order to illustrate a simple concept. No need. I understood the first time.
Now you're saying science is limited and that can be true but you have to admit that thanks to science we live in a better society now than 1400 years ago.
Am I correct.
Can religion help you in building sophisticated things like airplanes, cruise ships, automoviles, cell phones and every gadget you can imagine?
Can religion help you build modern cities with all the infrastructure required, climate control indoors and all amenities to make life easier to us humans.
Science is the number one reason we are what we are in terms of technology today.
You say science is limited but are you giving science the respect that it deserves?
I don't think so.
I look at religion for moral guidance mainly but I don't think one can compete with the other as you seem to be doing.
Science helps the police investigators to uncover crimes and that is the way I like to use science to uncover the truth.
That is what I'm doing here.
Originally Posted by Ümit
I am asking you again...just look at the sun...make your own observations...now tell me with a straight face that you do not see the sun rotating around you.
You do need to understand the difference between "perception" and "reality'.
Yes, I do see the sun rising from the east and setting on the west and travelling around planet earth but ......
Due to my many years of education I understand that is only a perception from my point of view.
You can say it is an optical illusion.
But if you ask me, or my friends or most of the people I know what causes sunset I can assure you that 100% of them would know that sunset is caused by the rotation of planet earth and not by the sun rotating around earth.

Thanks for your patience and input.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-31-2020, 04:17 PM
@Eddy
As said several times before, motion is relative. The statement that the sun moves in reference to earth is not a scientific error. Sun moves regardless whether you are from the earth or from outer space.
I also mentioned that in fact science has been wrong for centuries.

I think we are going in circles. I am repeating the same stuff and you keep repeating the same question. My advice is keep science and religion separate. Science can’t prove life after death, it can’t even prove that the soul exists. Religion addresses our spiritual issues which science can’t.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-31-2020, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
The fact is that according to your interpretation the Quran and Hadith contain scientific errors.
Now I don't want to make your opinion a true representation of all the Islamic world.
I don't know if you are a scholar.
Are you?
Is your view on this matter the view of all (or at least most) Muslims out of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world?
That’s not my interpretation, it’s your wrong understanding of what I and others have been saying.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-31-2020, 04:43 PM
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist when one looks from the outer space.

I have made some correction to the statement you previously quoted just to avoid any confusion.
Reply

Ümit
07-31-2020, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Eddy
So prophet Muhammad is speaking in the context of how things appear.
The way things appear is not the way really are as you pointed out.
So you are admitting that prophet Muhammad is being scientifically wrong when describing the trajectory of the sun.
Yes, he wanted to convey his message to people who wouldn't understand otherwise.
So because he is communicating to an ignorant person he is giving a scientifically incorrect message to the rest of humanity.
Am I correct?
My question to you.
Wouldn't be easier just to teach the facts as they really are and hope these ignorant people would understand?
Prophet Muhammad didn't have a problem telling the ignorant person that the sun prostrates underneath Allah's throne waiting for permission to rise again.
Do you think the ignorant person had no problem understanding this prostration thing but he wouldn't understand sunset is caused by planet earth rotation?
I find that hard to believe.
The fact is that according to your interpretation the Quran and Hadith contain scientific errors.
Now I don't want to make your opinion a true representation of all the Islamic world.
I don't know if you are a scholar.
Are you?
Is your view on this matter the view of all (or at least most) Muslims out of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world?
wow dude...I just cant believe you...you just ignore everything that doesn't suit you altough it is basic logic stuff and you keep repeating the same garbage over and over again.
ant to think that you supposed to be on the science side...

I've had much better construcrive discussions people of the flat earth community...and they were defending their own fairytale flat earth conspiracy theory.

too bad you are too scared to step out of your fantasy box and start learning new stuff.
Reply

Saira Khan
07-31-2020, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
wow dude...I just cant believe you...you just ignore everything that doesn't suit you altough it is basic logic stuff and you keep repeating the same garbage over and over again.
ant to think that you supposed to be on the science side...

I've had much better construcrive discussions people of the flat earth community...and they were defending their own fairytale flat earth conspiracy theory.

too bad you are too scared to step out of your fantasy box and start learning new stuff.
Exactly you are 100% right. I replied this man with the logic and understanding of science as well and deliberately copied and pasted a sentence from 'Abdullah's post to check his ability of understanding. He, in his ignorance, ignored everything else and just focused on that sentence by saying you have copied this etc etc.
This thread needs to be closed now because I don't think his mental level of understanding is at par to guide him through Astrology and Cosmology things.
Reply

Eddy
07-31-2020, 11:53 PM
Is the trajectory of the sun around planet earth on a 24 hour cycle a scientific fact?

Good day everyone
Reply

Nitro Zeus
07-31-2020, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by Saira Khan
Exactly you are 100% right. I replied this man with the logic and understanding of science as well and deliberately copied and pasted a sentence from 'Abdullah's post to check his ability of understanding. He, in his ignorance, ignored everything else and just focused on that sentence by saying you have copied this etc etc.
This thread needs to be closed now because I don't think his mental level of understanding is at par to guide him through Astrology and Cosmology things.
Eddy is brainwashed by those people....

It's obvious that there is no way one can teach him something. He is impossible to be taught.

Also, what Eddy does not understand is that Quran never meant to be book of science but book of guidance and obly those who are truly guided to Islam will see no errors in Quran.

I can't Eddy does that. Eddy thinks he is a scholar of Islam for he to argue with us....
Reply

'Abdullah
08-01-2020, 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by Eddy
Is the trajectory of the sun around planet earth on a 24 hour cycle a scientific fact?

Good day everyone
We did not talk about trajectory of the sun at all, only thing in discussion has been the motion of the sun ( not its path). And once upon a time ( not too long ago), it was believed that the sun does not move. That was a “scientific fact” fortunately now it is not any more. Finally science got that right after centuries. Had people been judging Quran on the basis of science, they would have said Quran had a scientific error ( because well known “ scientific fact” of their time was that sun does not move).
You are simply looking for excuses not to accept that you have been proven wrong. There is no mistake in Quran and authentic Hadith and I can understand that it is hard pill to swallow for someone who came to the forum with conviction that there are scientific errors in the Quran.

Ironically, you started to have a debate on something you have very little knowledge about. Come on man, relative motion is high school level stuff and that is something you are unable to understand. How can you talk about science when you don’t even understand a simple concept of high school level physics?

All the best for your search for the truth!
Reply

keiv
08-03-2020, 02:55 PM
Nothing to see here... These "thinker" types pop up around here every now and then pretending to be excited about learning different religions and so on. Shortly after, their intentions start to surface and it's the last we hear from them until the next one comes around. I still remember the "thinkers" who were around for 10+ years asking Islam 101 questions. It's amazing how long they lasted.
Reply

Ümit
08-03-2020, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
Nothing to see here... These "thinker" types pop up around here every now and then pretending to be excited about learning different religions and so on. Shortly after, their intentions start to surface and it's the last we hear from them until the next one comes around. I still remember the "thinkers" who were around for 10+ years asking Islam 101 questions. It's amazing how long they lasted.
yes I agree brother...but still we cannot treat every newcomer by default as those "thinkers". There still might be a few among them who are truely genuine...
so we have to welcome them and answer their questions with patience...and if he turns out to be a "thinker" later on, we can always ignore him anytime...so nothing is lost...you will still get your hasanat for your patience and being friendly and helpfull.
Reply

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