Does the Quran have scientific errors?

[Eddy]

Hi all, I'm new in this forum and this is my first post.I grew up a Christian but I'm now more of an agnostic.All my morals and culture come from Christianity but I have always been in doubt about the existence of God.
I like to challenge parts of the religion that don't make sense to me.
Muslims believe in the same God (Allah) but they don't believe in Jesus as God nor in the Trinity.
I often read Christians and Islamic apologists criticizing each other's religions.What I do is a take those critics and try to find out if there is any truth in them.If somebody criticizes Islam I try to reach Islamic sources to find out if the critic is valid.
This next challenge originated by listening to a video from an ex muslim who calls himself "(name removed)".
He claims the Quran is full of scientific errors and this is one of them.
He refers to Quran 36 verse 38 specifically.
Here is the english translation:Quran 36

37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

There are two different interpretations as far as I know.
Verse 38 refers to the daily sunset and the sun prostrating waiting for permission to rise again
orVerse 38 refers to the sun going into the end of its life and therefore the end of human life (resurrection day).

I found a hadith which seems to clearly show this whole set describes a 24-hour cycle (day and night) and verse 38 "stopping point" refers to the daily Sun stop after sunset (where the sun prostrates beneath the Throne) as mentioned in the same hadith.
The hadith continues:"then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it."So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

This is the hadith I'm talking about:

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

Does this proves the Quran has scientific errors and this is one of them?
How else you interpret this passage?
Prophet Muhammad could have commited scientific errors but not Allah and this verse is from Allah although the explanation is from Muhammad.

Challenging a religion to find the truth is not welcome in certain forums so if that is the case in this forum please disregard my whole post and I will not pursue the discussion.

 

['Abdullah]

Hi Eddy,
Welcome to the forum & thanks for asking us to explain these so called scientific errors. Please see video below which debunked all the claims Ridhwan has made in his video:

Hope you find this helpful in your search for the truth.

All the best and feel free to post more question if you have about Islam.

 

[Good brother]

Welcome to the forum

No, quran doesn't have errors.

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قَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى ‏{‏وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَهَا}‏‏"
Transliteration
Washshamsu tajree limustaqarrin laha
Sahih International
And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

1- He Almighty says "the sun runs" not moves or walks which is a clear sign that the sun moves in high speed. Today, our scientists say that the Sun moves say that the Sun moves at an estimated speed of about 225 km per second (140 miles per second)
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/AngelaChan.shtml

2- If we examine the sun's complex orbit and the course of horses running during race , we would find it similar to that of ships & sun -- For them God used the word "run"

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http://www.scribd.com/doc/52317289/5...nd-Down-Motion
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...50504/abstract


http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/l...ion/solar.html

3- We find modern researches on stars talking about "Star Streaming" as if they are like a running river:

stream ( Type: verb - Domain: non-thematic ) : flow, run or flow
اِنْسابَ - جَرَى


http://www.almaany.com/home.php?lang..._word=2&dspl=0
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...star-streaming​

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4 - Although God told us about sun's "mustaqar=resting time/place" in the quran 1400 years ago, we find modern scientists talking about "the solar apex" and define it as
" the direction that the Sun travels with respect to the Local Standard of Rest" In lay terms, it's the "target" within the Milky Way that the Sun appears to be "chasing" as it orbits the galaxy.​

​

http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/flash_html.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_apex

5- Science also tells us that the Sun will come to an end:
"The blazing ball of hot hydrogen that warms our planet and provides energy for life won't be around forever. '

Source: http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1...ime/index.html

"The Sun will gradually die. As a star's core crashes inwards, it eventually becomes hot enough to ignite another of its constituent atoms, helium. Helium atoms fuse together to form carbon. When the helium supply runs out, the centre collapses again and the atmosphere inflates. The Sun isn't massive enough to fully re-ignite its core for a third time. So it goes on expanding, shedding its atmosphere in a series of bursts. The dying core eventually forms a white dwarf - a spherical diamond the size of the Earth, made of carbon and oxygen. From this point on the Sun will gradually fade away, becoming dimmer and dimmer until its light is finally snuffed out."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/s...th/index.shtml

Now we can realize quran superiority over all arrogant haters and man-made books as it's the word of God Almighty, The Most High .

http://comparativreligion.blogspot.com/2013/01/re-quran-3638-scientific-error-refuted.html

 

[Good brother]

Regarding the hadith:

"It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم لأَبِي ذَرٍّ حِينَ غَرَبَتِ الشَّمْسُ ‏"‏ تَدْرِي أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَإِنَّهَا تَذْهَبُ حَتَّى تَسْجُدَ تَحْتَ الْعَرْشِ، فَتَسْتَأْذِنَ فَيُؤْذَنَ لَهَا، وَيُوشِكُ أَنْ تَسْجُدَ فَلاَ يُقْبَلَ مِنْهَا، وَتَسْتَأْذِنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَنَ لَهَا، يُقَالُ لَهَا ارْجِعِي مِنْ حَيْثُ جِئْتِ‏.‏ فَتَطْلُعُ مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا، فَذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى ‏{‏وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَهَا ذَلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ ‏}‏‏"‏‏.
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The ayah:
http://quran.com/36/38

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The sun prostrates ?!

The sun to prostrate doesn't need to be human-like with head and 4 limbs. It submits to God in its own way.
http://quran.com/17/44​

تُسَبِّحُ لَهُ السَّمَاوَاتُ السَّبْعُ وَالْأَرْضُ وَمَن فِيهِنَّ ۚ وَإِن مِّن شَيْءٍ إِلَّا يُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِهِ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تَفْقَهُونَ تَسْبِيحَهُمْ ۗ إِنَّهُ كَانَ حَلِيمًا غَفُورًا​

“The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [Allah] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving.” (Qur’an 17:44)​

The entire creation of Allah is engaged in worshipping and glorifying Allah, but each has its own separate way of doing it that has already been taught to it just like human beings who have been told how to do their salah and tasbih. Therefore, taking the prostration (sajdah) of the sun to mean that it can take effect only when it places its forehead on some floor like a human being would not be correct. Thus, the truth of the matter turns out to be that the sun at every moment while moving on its orbit keeps offering prostration before Allah the Almighty and keeps seeking permission to move ahead - and it needs no pause or break to make prostration or seek permission.

The word used in the hadeeth is "تسجد" The verb "Sajada= prostrate"has 3 meanings as in the waseet arabic dictionary:​

سَجَدَ سَجَدَ ُ سجودًا : خضع وتطامن .
و سَجَدَ وضَع جبهتَهُ على الأَرضِ .
فهو ساجِدٌ . والجمع : سُجَّدٌ ، وسُجُودٌ .
و سَجَدَ السفينةُ للريح : أَطاعَتْها ومالت بميلِها .
المعجم: المعجم الوسيط -

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http://www.almaany.com/home.php?lang..._word=2&dspl=0
i.e:
1- put his foehead on the ground
2- submit
3- Obey ( like how ship is driven by the wind)

In Islam everything in the state of "sujood":
http://quran.com/22/18​

أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَسْجُدُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ وَالنُّجُومُ وَالْجِبَالُ وَالشَّجَرُ وَالدَّوَابُّ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنَ النَّاسِ ۖ وَكَثِيرٌ حَقَّ عَلَيْهِ الْعَذَابُ ۗ وَمَن يُهِنِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِن مُّكْرِمٍ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاءُ ۩​

Sahih International​

Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.​

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"By using the word "Sajdah" (prostration), it has been declared that all created things, be they living things, minerals or plants, are in obedience and thus submit to the Supreme authority of Allah Ta'ala, thereby mentioning two groups of humans in this respect of 'submission'. One, which obeys Allah and therefore is included amongst the creatures who 'prostrate' to Him, and the other one which is rebellious and refuses to bow before Him, meaning, refusing to submit to His Will. The word "Sajdah" (prostration) has been used here in the broader sense of 'submission' to the will of Allah and obeying His commands, because all created things act upon this submission in their own way. Human beings perform Sajdah by touching the ground with the forehead, while in the case of other created things their Sajdah constitutes their faithful performance of the functions assigned to them by Allah.


The Truth About All Created Things Obeying Allah
Genetically, the entire universe and all created things therein are under the control and subject to the Will of their Creator by virtue of an inherently programmed guidance (guidance of Takwin) by Allah. The 'submission' in this sense is pre-determined, involuntary and instinctive. There is no created being which can escape this universal law of creation, be it a Muslim or a non-believer, a living thing or dead, mineral or plant. The smallest particle and the highest mountain cannot make the slightest movement without His Will. There is, however, another kind of submission to Allah, when a person offers homage to Him voluntarily and without constraint. This is what distinguishes a believer from a non-believer. A believer is obedient and sincere in his submission to Allah, whereas a non-believer repudiates His existence. As this verse deals with the difference between a Muslim and a Kafir (infidel), it is more likely that reference to 'Sajdah' (prostration) does not refer to pre-destined and instinctive obedience alone but covers the voluntary submission as well. Let it not be supposed that only human beings and Jinns who possess intelligence can offer voluntary and unconstrained submission, and animals, plants and minerals being devoid of reason cannot exercise voluntary and intentional obedience. Indeed it can be proved from the text of the Qur'an that every created thing has reason, intellect and intent, and the difference lies only in degree. Human beings and Jinns possess a perfect level of intelligence, which makes them liable to a strict adherence to the laws governing what is permissible and what is forbidden. As regards other creatures, Allah has given them intelligence according to their needs. Animals possess the highest degree of intelligence after humans, then come plants and last of all are the minerals. The intelligence among the animals can easily be perceived, and that possessed by plants can also be observed if one applies one's mind to the task. However, the intelligence given to the minerals is so little and concealed that it is not easily discernible, though Allah has said clearly that they not only possess intelligence but also have the capacity to decide things. The Qur'an says about the sky and the earth (They said, "We come willingly." 41:11) that is, when Allah commanded the sky and the earth that they must submit to His Will either by their free choice or by force, they both replied that they accepted His authority by their own voluntary choice."

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Ma'ariful Quran - Mufti Shafi Usmani RA
http://classicalislamgroup.com/index...afseer-Al-Hajj


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At time of sunset ?!

(at the time of sunset) is not present in the arabic text. If we assume that it presents, then It's not a problem at all. The sun sets all over the day-24 hours- on different areas on the earth, so the state of sujood mentioned above is of persistent nature.


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Underneath the Throne ?!

The Throne of Allah, as understood from the Qur’an and Sunnah, surrounds all that we know as the masses of the land and expanses of the sky. All these masses and expanses along with planets and stars, without any exceptions, are enclosed within the Divine throne.
Ayatul kursi:
http://quran.com/2/255​

وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ ۖ​

And His throne extends over the heavens and the earth​

And Allah knows the best.

http://comparativreligion.blogspot.com/2013/01/re-hadith-error-sun-prostrates-under.html

 

['Abdullah]

[MENTION=46248]Eddy[/MENTION]
If you are genuinely interested in scientific miracles of the Quran, video below is a good debate between Dr. Zakir Naik & Dr. William. People like Ridhwan have absolute no clue what they are talking about and they only use anti religion videos to make money on YouTube.

Personally I take Quran as a book of guidance and moral laws not a book of a scientific miracles.

Science by nature is never 100% certain because it relies on assumptions for the things we have not observed or experienced and as we experience and observe these unknown things scientific theories/ laws change and adapt. For example, there was a time when sun was considered stationary but now we know it moves. Hope it makes sense to you.

All the best!

 

[Eddy]

Thanks for responding to my question but unfortunately I couldn't find in that video any mention of Quran 36 verse 38 and the Hadith I brought up.
Remember this is not about refuting Apostate Prophet's claimsk, this is about a topic I chose and investigated which started by listening to a video by Apostate Prophet.
He didn't go in depth on the subject so it is better to just examine what I used as arguments and not concentrating in discredit him.
Thanks again.

 

[Eddy]

Although God told us about sun's "mustaqar=resting time/place" in the quran 1400 years ago, we find modern scientists talking about "the solar apex ....."

Thanks for your response but I'm unable to find anything in your answer that satisfies my inquiry.
I am trying to understand what Allah meant by "mustaqar".
We know scientifically that after sunset the sun doesn't rest anywhere. What we call "sunset" is actually the planet earth rotating on its own axis and by doing so we loose sight of the sun every day late in the afternoon.
The earth continues rotating at the same speed, never stopping until the next day we can see the sun again.
The sun never moved (relatively speaking) it is always the earth rotating and creating what we call day and night.
If we stand in front of a lamp and we start slowly spinning at one point we're not going to see the light of the lamp.
If we keep spinning we are going to see the light of the lamp again.
Sorry but I don't see any clear cut explanation in your answer.

 

[*charisma*]

Hi Eddy,

Keep in mind while scientific connections can be made to the Quran, ultimately the Quran is a book of signs and guidance, not science. Science is also not constant. New discoveries debunk old theories, new theories arise with the change of environment, theories are still unproven and discoveries unknown, etc. However, Quran does not change and has not changed. I'm sure there are verses in the Quran that were unclear previously, but are quite clear now due to scientific advancements, just as we may have unclear verses now which may be very clear in the future. To be honest though, I don't necessarily see any other Abrahamic religion (or even other religions in general) which has such a strong scientific connection as does Islam. It just shows the importance that belief does not have to be without logic.

As believers, the Quran is free of error. As humans though, we are full of error and can misinterpret, misunderstand, or be quick to lose our faith due to overthinking and trying to make our religion into something it is not. Not having an answer to what you want answered doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the quran.

In regards to those particular verses, I understand it exactly as it says. I don't understand the need to make things complicated or complex.

It is simple, the night and day are separate and nothing moves or happens without Allah's permission/will.

 

['Abdullah]

Honestly I am not sure what scientific error you want to point out?
If you need explanation of the verses, then I think that will help to understand what Allah wants us to understand from these verses:

37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.

The alternation of the night and day is one of those realities which man does not regard as worthy of much attention only because it is a phenomenon of daily occurrence and experience; whereas if he considers how the day passes and how the night falls, and what is the wisdom in the passing of the day and in the falling of the night, he will himself realize that this is an obvious sign of the existence of an All-Powerful and All-Wise Allah and of His being One and only One. The day cannot pass and the night cannot fall until the sun hides from the earth. The great regularity which is found in the alternation of the day and night was not possible unless the sun and the earth were bound in one and the same relentless system. Then the deep relationship which exists between the alternation of the day and night and the other creations on the earth clearly points to the fact that this system has been established deliberately by a Being with perfect wisdom. The existence on the earth, of the men and animals and vegetation, and even of water and air and different minerals, is in fact, the result of placing the earth at a particular distance from the sun, with the arrangement that the different parts of the earth should go on successively coming before the sun and hiding from it at definite intervals. If the distance of the earth from the sun had been a little longer, or a little shorter, or there had been a perpetual night on one side of it and a perpetual day on the other, or the alternation of the day and night had been much faster or much slower, or sometimes the day had appeared suddenly and sometimes the night without any system, no life could be possible on this planet, and even the form and appearance of the inorganic substances would have been much different from what it is now. If the hearts are not blinded, one can clearly perceive in this system the working of a God, Who willed to bring into being this particular kind of creation on the earth and then established relevance, harmonies and relationships between the earth and the sun precisely in accordance with its needs and requirements. If a person regards the concept of the existence of God and His Unity as far removed from reason, he should think for himself and see how much farther removed should it be from reason to ascribe this wonderful creation to many gods, or to think that all this has happened automatically under some deaf and blind law of nature. When a person who can accept without question these latter unreasonable explanations, only on the basis of conjecture and speculation, says that the existence of a system and wisdom and purpose is not a sufficient proof of the existence of God, it becomes difficult for us to believe whether such a person really feels the need and necessity of a rational proof, sufficient or insufficient in any degree whatever, for accepting any concept of creed in the world.

38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"

Better translation could be “ please of rest” instead of “ stopping point.” “Place of rest” may either mean the place where the sun will ultimately come to a halt, or the time when it will come to a halt. The true meaning of this verse can be determined only when man has attained the full and exact knowledge of the realities of the universe. But man’s knowledge is such that it has been changing in every age and what he seems to know today might change tomorrow. The people of the ancient times on the basis of their observations of the sun believed that it was moving round the earth. Then after further research and observation the view became that the sun was stationary and all the planets of the solar system were revolving round it. But this theory also did not last long. The later observations revealed that not only the sun but all the stars are also moving in a particular direction, at speeds of 10 to 100 miles per second. About the sun the modern astronomers hold the view that it is moving at a speed of 20 kilometers (about 12 miles) per second along with its whole family of the planets. As we can see, that knowledge of science is not certain and I don’t want to stretch the interpretation of the verse to fit what science currently believes, rather the focus should be what we can learn from the verse and how we can use it to appreciate the creation of Allah.

39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.

That is, the phases of the moon go on changing throughout the month. It begins as a crescent, then goes on waxing every day till it becomes the full moon on the 14th of the month. Then it starts waning every day till at last it returns to its original shape of the crescent. The same has been happening for millions of years with perfect regularity, and no change has ever occurred in the phases of the moon. That is why one can always calculate and find out exactly in what phase the moon will be on a particular day. If the movement of the moon had not been bound in a system, estimation of its phases would not have been possible.

40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon,

This sentence can have two meanings and both are correct.

(1) The sun does not have the power that it should draw the moon into itself, or enter its orbit and collide with it.

(2) The sun cannot appear in the times which have been appointed for the rising and appearing of the moon. It is not possible that the sun should suddenly appear on the horizon when the moon is shining at night.

nor does the night overtake the day,

Nor does this happen either that the night should approach before the appointed period of the day comes to an end, and should start spreading its darkness suddenly during the time when the day is meant to spread its light.

but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

The word falak in Arabic is used for the orbit of the planets, and it gives a different meaning from the word sama (sky). The sentence, “Each in an orbit is floating (swimming)” points to four realities.

(1) That not only the sun and the moon but all the stars and planets and celestial bodies are moving.

(2) The falak, or orbit, of each one of them is separate.

(3) That the orbits are not moving with the stars in them, but the stars are moving in the orbits.

(4) That the movement of the stars in their orbits is similar to the floating of something in a fluid.

These verses are not intended to describe the realities of astronomy, but are meant to make man understand that if he looks around himself, with open eyes, and uses his common sense, he will find countless and limitless proofs of the existence of God and His Unity, and he will not come across a single proof of atheism and shirk.

The vastness of the solar system in which our earth is included is such that its parent body, the sun, is 300,000 times bigger than the earth, and its farthest planet Neptune is at least 2,793 million miles distant from the sun. However, if Pluto is taken as the farthest planet, it revolves 4,600 million miles away round it. Notwithstanding this vastness, the solar system occupies a very insignificant part of a huge galaxy. The galaxy which includes our solar system has about 3,000 million suns in it, and its nearest sun is so distant from our earth that its light takes about four years to reach us. Then this galaxy also is not the whole universe. According to the investigations made so far, it has been estimated that it is one of about 2,000,000 spiral nebulae, and the nearest nebula is about a million light years away from the earth. As for the farthest celestial bodies which are visible through the modern instruments, their light reaches the earth in about 100 million years. Even now it cannot be claimed that man has seen the whole universe. It is a small part of the Kingdom of Allah which man has yet been able to observe. It cannot be predicted how far and deep man will yet be able to see with greater and more efficient means of observation at his disposal.

All the information that has been gathered so far about the universe proves that this whole world is made up of the same substance of which our tiny earthly world is made, and the same law is working in the universe which is working in the world of our earth; otherwise it was not at all possible, that man should have made observations of the very distant worlds from the earth, measured their distances and estimated their movements.
Is it not a clear proof of the fact that this whole universe is the creation of One God and the Kingdom of One Ruler?
Then from the order and the wisdom and the excellence of workmanship and the deep relationships which are found in the hundreds of thousands of the galaxies and in the millions and billions of the stars and planets revolving in them no sensible person can imagine that all this has come about automatically. Is it possible that there should be no administrator behind this order and system, no sage behind this wisdom, no designer behind this design and work of art, and no planner behind this planning?

 

[Eddy]

... taking the prostration (sajdah) of the sun to mean that it can take effect only when it places its forehead on some floor like a human being would not be correct. Thus, the truth of the matter turns out to be that the sun at every moment while moving on its orbit keeps offering prostration before Allah the Almighty and keeps seeking permission to move ahead - and it needs no pause or break to make prostration or seek permission.

Thanks for your response.
That explanation is not nearly close to my understanding.
I'm going to use the same example of the lamp.
There's a lamp in front of me (not moving) This lamp represents the sun.
I slowly begin to spin until I can no longer see the light of the lamp (sunset)
I keep spinning until I see the light again (sunrise)

Now this is how Allah describes that.
I am standing and not moving looking ahead.
The lamp in front of me (the sun) begins to move around me until I can no longer see it (sunset).
After that the lamp stops moving in its place of rest, until Allah gives it permission to continue moving around me.
Permission is given and the lamp continues moving until I can see it again (sunrise)
And this 24 hour cycle continues forever until one time permission will not be given.
Can you now understand what I understand and that what Allah describes doesn't much reality (science if you want to use that term).
I am trying to understand it from an Islamic point of view but logic is a big part of my thinking and I cannot see the logic here.
Thanks again for your time attempting an explanation.

 

[Eddy]

As believers, the Quran is free of error. As humans though, we are full of error and can misinterpret, misunderstand, or be quick to lose our faith due to overthinking and trying to make our religion into something it is not. Not having an answer to what you want answered doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the quran.

In regards to those particular verses, I understand it exactly as it says. I don't understand the need to make things complicated or complex.

It is simple, the night and day are separate and nothing moves or happens without Allah's permission/will.

Thanks for your explanation.
So as you said, the Quran is free of error but humans commit errors and can misinterpret.
Do Muslims interpret prophet Muhammad's words as flawless with no mistakes?
He was human and the hadith are not the word of Allah but what people believed to be the word and actions of prophet Muhammad.
Could he have misinterpreted what Allah communicated to him?

In this hadith someone asked.
"Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Prophet Muhammad then responds what I already explained.
It is not Allah giving an explanation, it is prophet Muhammad.
And that explanation is far from being logical in any way according to what we know today.
I don't know maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for your help.

 

[Eddy]

If you are genuinely interested in scientific miracles of the Quran, video below is a good debate between Dr. Zakir Naik & Dr. William. People like Ridhwan have absolute no clue what they are talking about and they only use anti religion videos to make money on YouTube.

Sorry maybe I was not clear enough. I have no interest in finding scientific miracles in the Quran, what I'm trying to find is a true religion behind The Bible or the Quran.
Scientific errors in a book made by God (Allah) means that it is all a lie and the book was actually made by men.
That is the real purpose of finding scientific errors where errors should not be there.
Faith can only take you part of the way but there has to be other ways to find truth. That's the agnostics dilemma.
Thanks for your input.

 

['Abdullah]

Sorry maybe I was not clear enough. I have no interest in finding scientific miracles in the Quran, what I'm trying to find is a true religion behind The Bible or the Quran.
Scientific errors in a book made by God (Allah) means that it is all a lie and the book was actually made by men.
That is the real purpose of finding scientific errors where errors should not be there.
Faith can only take you part of the way but there has to be other ways to find truth. That's the agnostics dilemma.
Thanks for your input.

My friend we all know that science is only a tool which is based on our limited knowledge and observation and it keeps changing - the example I have given in my previous post was very much related to your question. How science at one time established that sun was stationary, then established that the earth was stationary and sun was moving and now we know both sun and earth move in their respective orbits.

On the other hand, Quran is the same and is never changed. It states that not only the earth and sun but everything else such as stars also revolve in their own orbits. That’s something science has recently established while Quran has that statement for over 1400+ years. There is no conflict, conflict in only in your own mind. Quran verifies if a scientific research is an established fact or not, science can’t verify Quran because science is not absolute knowledge.

Muslims have never been against science and we do accept established scientific research but science is not certainty while Divine revelation is a certainty.

The purposes of verses in question is not to debate what science says and what it does not, it is to realize that everything is under the control of One God - Allah who has power over everything and to Him everything including sun & moon submit. Allah has given us free will and many signs around us which prove His existence.
By the way do you believe we have a creator and He is only one?

 

[Eddy]

At time of sunset ?!

(at the time of sunset) is not present in the arabic text. If we assume that it presents, then It's not a problem at all. The sun sets all over the day-24 hours- on different areas on the earth, so the state of sujood mentioned above is of persistent nature.

I don't know if is not in the Arabic text but you are missing the spot.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Sahih Bukhari assumed the question referred to "at the time of sunset".
Is the part in parenthesis part of Sahih Bukhari's text?

Another thing I'm noticing now that changes the whole thing.
Notice that it begins by saying "The prophet asked me at sunset"
So prophet Muhammad is the one asking the question but who is the one answering it?
At first I assumed prophet Muhammad was the one answering.
This is too confusing.
Then it continues:
I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne ....
Now who is "I" ?
Who is this hadith talking about?
Prophet Muhammad asked the question and who was the one answering?
Please any idea?
Thanks

 

[Ümit]

I don't know if is not in the Arabic text but you are missing the spot.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Sahih Bukhari assumed the question referred to "at the time of sunset".
Is the part in parenthesis part of Sahih Bukhari's text?

Another thing I'm noticing now that changes the whole thing.
Notice that it begins by saying "The prophet asked me at sunset"
So prophet Muhammad is the one asking the question but who is the one answering it?
At first I assumed prophet Muhammad was the one answering.
This is too confusing.
Then it continues:
I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne ....
Now who is "I" ?
Who is this hadith talking about?
Prophet Muhammad asked the question and who was the one answering?
Please any idea?
Thanks

Dear Eddy,

1. Hadiths are narrations of people who have met/spoken/known Mohammed sas in their lives. So the person meant with "I" is then not Mohammed sas, but anyone else. In the Hadith itself it should mention that persons name.
2. in this hadeeth, it is prophet Mohammed sas that asked the question (he knows the answer but asks to test someone)...then the other answers with "Allah and His Messenger know better."...then Mohammed sas gives the answer: "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne."
3. As a muslim we believe that everything prostrates and prays to God in its own way. I have never seen an animal actually prostrating, but they do that in their own way...so do trees, rocks and mountains...as we of course know that trees and non living things cannot even move, so how are they going to prostrate....right? they are not prostrating in the way we do with our heads to the ground...they do that in their own way...so do stars, moons, suns and planets prostrate in their own way in front of God...it is not a thing we can observe...

so, the sun litterally going underneath the throne and then prostrating is not a thing we can observe. The whole throne thing, where that exactly is...no one can show you with its finger where that place exactly is...we do not have the ability to see it.

4. you should realize that religion and science extension, and not each others substitution. What I mean by that, religion and science have a certain relationship with each other...religion starts where science ends. you can compare this relationship with a half peeled banana. the peeled part is the part we know and we can prove with science. the unpeeled part is the part we "believe" where the rest of the banana is, and as we develop ourselves, we are able to continue to peel the banana and can therefore prove more and more about religion...
one thing that does not fit in this metaphore is that there are a few things in religion beyond the grasp of science...so we will never be able to proof everything about it.

 

['Abdullah]

Thanks for your explanation.
So as you said, the Quran is free of error but humans commit errors and can misinterpret.
Do Muslims interpret prophet Muhammad's words as flawless with no mistakes?
He was human and the hadith are not the word of Allah but what people believed to be the word and actions of prophet Muhammad.
Could he have misinterpreted what Allah communicated to him?

In this hadith someone asked.
"Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Prophet Muhammad then responds what I already explained.
It is not Allah giving an explanation, it is prophet Muhammad.
And that explanation is far from being logical in any way according to what we know today.
I don't know maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for your help.

Allah says in the Quran (interpretation of the meaning):

Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
It is only an Inspiration that is inspired. [Quran 53:2-4]

Part of the mission of a Prophet is to teach what is revealed to him and explain to the people, as Allah says in the Quran:

Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you) We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Quran) and sanctifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Quran) and the Hikmah (i.e. Sunnah, Islamic laws and Fiqh - jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know. ​

[Quran 2:151]​

In one of your posts you asked why Prophet (Peace be upon him) himself ask the question, " Do you know where the sun goes." He asked this question to teach and explain what that verse meant.

Allah also says in the Quran:

This is the Revelation sent down from the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah),
We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),
And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta),
And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him.
And verily, this Quran is a Reminder for the Muttaqun (pious). ​

[Quran 69:43-48]​

So to conclude in the matters of conveying the message from Allah & explaining that message to people, Prophet (peace be upon him) did not make any mistake.
Now to answer other part of your question, did Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) make mistakes in matters which are not related to Divine Revelation? The answer is yes, he did because he was human being like us. To give an example, let me quote a hadith:

It was narrated from 'Aisha that the Prophet (ﷺ) heard some sounds and said:
“What is this noise?” They said: “Palm trees that are being pollinated.” He said: “If they did not do that it would be better.” So they did not pollinate them that year, and the dates did not mature properly. they mentioned that to the Prophet (ﷺ) and he said: “If it is one of the matters of your religion, then refer to me.”

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، حَدَّثَنَا عَفَّانُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، حَدَّثَنَا ثَابِتٌ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، وَهِشَامُ بْنُ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم سَمِعَ أَصْوَاتًا ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ مَا هَذَا الصَّوْتُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا النَّخْلُ يُؤَبِّرُونَهُ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ لَوْ لَمْ يَفْعَلُوا لَصَلَحَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَلَمْ يُؤَبِّرُوا عَامَئِذٍ فَصَارَ شِيصًا فَذَكَرُوا لِلنَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَ ‏"‏ إِنْ كَانَ شَيْئًا مِنْ أَمْرِ دُنْيَاكُمْ فَشَأْنَكُمْ بِهِ وَإِنْ كَانَ شَيْئًا مِنْ أُمُورِ دِينِكُمْ فَإِلَىَّ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

English reference: Vol. 3, Book 16, Hadith 2471
Arabic reference: Book 16, Hadith 2565
https://sunnah.com/urn/1325660

Notice, in the above hadith Prophet (Peace be upon him) said not to pollinate palm trees because in his opinion, pollination was not going to make any difference. But he was wrong and he clearly said that he can guide in the matters of Divine Guidance (Revelation) but in the matters of worldly affairs, his knowledge was limited.

I hope you find that helpful to understand the role of the Prophet which is not only to receive the revelation but also to explain it to people through his words and actions. That why Sunnah is so important to understand the Quran & just like Quran is preserved, knowledge of hadith is also preserved. We have several categories of hadith, Sahih Hadith are the one which Muslims scholars use to interpret Islamic laws.
​

 

['Abdullah]

I don't know if is not in the Arabic text but you are missing the spot.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
Sahih Bukhari assumed the question referred to "at the time of sunset".
Is the part in parenthesis part of Sahih Bukhari's text?

Another thing I'm noticing now that changes the whole thing.
Notice that it begins by saying "The prophet asked me at sunset"
So prophet Muhammad is the one asking the question but who is the one answering it?
At first I assumed prophet Muhammad was the one answering.
This is too confusing.
Then it continues:
I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne ....
Now who is "I" ?
Who is this hadith talking about?
Prophet Muhammad asked the question and who was the one answering?
Please any idea?
Thanks

Let me quote the hadith: I will keep the wording of actual hadith in bold & give my commentary in the blue to explain your questions:

Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?"
So yes the question is asked by Prophet (peace be upon him) because sometimes teaching is done by asking questions. This is a common method is class room setting, teacher often ask questions to students while teacher already know the answer. As I mentioned in one of my previous post that part of the mission of Prophet (peace be upon him) was to explain & teach what was revealed to him.

I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best."
"I" here refers to "Abu Dharr "who narrated this hadith.
Also note that the companions were not like us, they were careful when it comes to matters of Divine revelation. Often time, we will see hadiths in which Prophet (peace be upon him) would ask something from companions and their response is often recorded as " Allah and His Messenger know the best." This is because they want Prophet (peace be upon him) to explain the Divine Revelation, because he (peace be upon him) was given this knowledge from Allah who has the absolute knowledge while our own knowledge is limited.
He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) recited, "That: "And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by `Abdullah.
Here Prophet (peace be upon him) replied to his own question & hopefully you can now see that purpose of the original question from Prophet (peace be upon him) was to explain the verse 36:38

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 7424
In-book reference: Book 97, Hadith 52
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 9, Book 93, Hadith 520
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/52

Please note that this hadith is graded as Sahih ( as all hadiths in Muslim and Bukhari are) and there is no question about the authenticity of this hadith. In fact this hadith is narrated through multiple chains and is found in almost all books of hadith including Sahih Muslim & Sahih Bukhari. When a hadith is found both is Sahih Muslim & Sahih Bukhari, it is also called "agreed upon" or "muttafaqun ‘alayh" which means the hadith has highest level of authenticity.

And Allah knows the best!

---

​

I previously has said that we don't want any conflict in what we have established through science and what has been stated in Quran for over 1400+ years ago. This is true not only in the case of Quran but also in the case of many Sahih Hadith. For example, in this hadith it is mentioned that sun will eventually rise from the West. Now mind that this has been recorded in books of Hadith for centuries and this has never been established as a scientific fact. In fact, according to Muslims belief, rising of the sun from the West is one of a major sign of the day of Judgement as stated in another sahih hadith:


Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "​

The Hour will not be established until the sun rises from the West

: and when the people see it, then whoever will be living on the surface of the earth will have faith, and that is (the time) when no good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before." (6.158)

حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَاحِدِ، حَدَّثَنَا عُمَارَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو زُرْعَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ، رضى الله عنه قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَطْلُعَ الشَّمْسُ مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا، فَإِذَا رَآهَا النَّاسُ آمَنَ مَنْ عَلَيْهَا، فَذَاكَ حِينَ لاَ يَنْفَعُ نَفْسًا إِيمَانُهَا، لَمْ تَكُنْ آمَنَتْ مِنْ قَبْلُ ‏"‏‏.‏
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 4635
In-book reference: Book 65, Hadith 157
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 159

But let's see what does science say about the rising of the Sun from the West? We know that it has not yet established as a fact from science that shows the knowledge gained from science has always its limits. We also know that science has no solid data to deny the possibility of sun rise from the West, in fact, some observations has been made by scientists which suggest that Islamic narrative of rising the sun from the West may become a reality. These observations are the following:​

• Earth’s magnetic field is flipping at an alarming rate comparing than earlier rate. So there is the possibility to flip the earth’s magnetic pole . As a result , north pole will be new south and east pole will be new west. ​
• Scientists have observed that earth’s rotation speed is slowing down and scientists predict that it will become more slower and slower, and eventually earth's rotation will stop for few moments. But because of vast gravity & weight, earth will start to rotate clock-wise. and then what will happen if earth start to rotate clock wise? There will be continuous two night without day between two night. Then Sun will arise from west.

​I will let you research what science says in this regard & see if their findings align with what is stated in Hadiths.

You may find many articles on this subject referring to NASA but I don't think those are authentic articles. ​

Below is one article written by a non-Muslim on this subject.
​

https://www.express.co.uk/news/scie...n-magnetic-poles-SWITCHING-North-become-south

What I know that it may take science centuries to come to this conclusion but this is already stated as a fact in books of Sahih Hadith ( a knowledge which is revealed by God and is CERTAIN). It is the science which needs Quran & Sahih Hadith for confirmation of their findings, not the other way around.

And Allah knows the best!​

 

[Eddy]

Thanks for all your answers, in particular the last few by HabibUrrehman and Ümit
I see what you mean now.
So it is prophet Muhammad who answers his own question.
Now why would prophet Muhammad ask the wrong question?
And then why prophet Muhammad would answer giving an illogical answer?
This is what "Ridvan" and others are attacking and this is why they consider the answer shows scientific errors.
Let's back up a bit.
Why is this considered a scientific error?
Because both the question and the answer don't align with our scientific understanding of how the solar system works.
First let's describe how prophet Muhammad describes a 24 hour cycle (day and night).
Prophet Muhammad describes the sun rotating around the earth which apparently doesn't move.
After sunset the sun prostrates itself underneath Allah's throne. It waits for Allah's permission to rise again the next day.
Permission is given so the 24 hour cycle starts again until one day permission will not be given. (resurrection day)
This explanation only works if indeed the sun is rotation around the earth and making it in a 24 hour cycle.
We know that is not possible.
This explanation works only if planet earth doesn't spin and we know this is not true.
Not to mention that when it is sunset to me in New York it is not in most of the rest of the world.
So sunset is not a fix time everywhere in the world.
So there you have it, That is why.
I have tried to find explanations to this and I haven't found any reasonable one.
I tried to read carefully all your answers and I hope I didn't miss anything but nothing yet explains this religiously and scientifically at the same time.
I have tried to put myself in the place of the writer of the hadith and I certainly would have had asked so many questions, (anyone of us would have with what we know today).
What do you mean, where the sun goes prophet?
Sunset where prophet?
Are you saying the sun is the one rotating around planet earth?
Are you saying the sun really stops every 24 hours?
And on and on.
Sorry if I am to inquisitive and upfront and this bothers anyone.
Thanks for all your answers.

 

['Abdullah]

Thanks for all your answers, in particular the last few by HabibUrrehman and Ümit
I see what you mean now.
So it is prophet Muhammad who answers his own question.
Now why would prophet Muhammad ask the wrong question?
And then why prophet Muhammad would answer giving an illogical answer?
This is what "Ridvan" and others are attacking and this is why they consider the answer shows scientific errors.
Let's back up a bit.
Why is this considered a scientific error?
Because both the question and the answer don't align with our scientific understanding of how the solar system works.
First let's describe how prophet Muhammad describes a 24 hour cycle (day and night).
Prophet Muhammad describes the sun rotating around the earth which apparently doesn't move.
After sunset the sun prostrates itself underneath Allah's throne. It waits for Allah's permission to rise again the next day.
Permission is given so the 24 hour cycle starts again until one day permission will not be given. (resurrection day)
This explanation only works if indeed the sun is rotation around the earth and making it in a 24 hour cycle.
We know that is not possible.
This explanation works only if planet earth doesn't spin and we know this is not true.
Not to mention that when it is sunset to me in New York it is not in most of the rest of the world.
So sunset is not a fix time everywhere in the world.
So there you have it, That is why.
I have tried to find explanations to this and I haven't found any reasonable one.
I tried to read carefully all your answers and I hope I didn't miss anything but nothing yet explains this religiously and scientifically at the same time.
I have tried to put myself in the place of the writer of the hadith and I certainly would have had asked so many questions, (anyone of us would have with what we know today).
What do you mean, where the sun goes prophet?
Sunset where prophet?
Are you saying the sun is the one rotating around planet earth?
Are you saying the sun really stops every 24 hours?
And on and on.
Sorry if I am to inquisitive and upfront and this bothers anyone.
Thanks for all your answers.

I am amazed that you are still stuck with science. And you interpreted the hadith at your own, in a way you wanted. Where did the hadith or Quran say that the earth is stationary and does not move? In fact, the verse says everything moves in its own orbit. Where does it say that sun stops? That's your interpretation, Quran clearly says that it moves until its appointed time. Hadith only says that it seeks permission to rise every day. Can science contradict that? It can't because you need to have a clear proof to anything in science which you don't have. May be I should ask you to prove that the sun does not seek Allah's permission to rise every day?

As mentioned in one of my earlier post that man’s knowledge is such that it has been changing in every age and what he seems to know today might change tomorrow. The people of the ancient times on the basis of their observations of the sun believed that it was moving round the earth. In 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the center of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy. The point is that Quran never changed while science kept changing and eventually came to same conclusion which Quran has come up with 1400+ years ago.

So let's go back and see what Quran said about these verses:
It says that everything is revolving in its own path with the order of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taa'la. Does it conflict with modern day scientific knowledge? No it does not.
What does the hadith say? It says that the sun submits to God's Will and when the time will come Allah will ask Sun to rise from the West and that is a major sign for the Day of Judgement. Does this contradict with science? It does not, I gave some links to most current scientific research which actually suggest that the Sun may rise from the West.
For more info about how day and night are mentioned in Quran and how that description in Quran aligns with the modern day scientific knowledge, feel free to read the article below:
http://www.kaheel7.com/eng/index.ph...eat-photos-the-quran-describes-night-and-day-

I feel that by focusing too much on science, you are also missing the whole point of our discussion so far. Scientific knowledge is never CERTAIN. I gave one example earlier in the form of old scientific beliefs about the Sun. Another example, is that Allah said in the Quran that the universe is expanding:

And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander. (Quran 51:47)

Now if you rely on science then people before 1920 would have used the above verse to say that Quran has scientific error. We now know that the error was not in Quran but was in our limited knowledge and observations. Science before 1920 had established that the universe had always been in existence; also, that the size of the universe was fixed and not changing. Science discovered only a century ago that the scientists were wrong and in fact universe has a beginning and it is expanding. In the end, science has to agree with what Quran has been saying for 1400+ years. Don't limit your intellect to something which is not certain and changes with time, rather focus on what you gain from these verse.
​

These verses are powerful verses for someone who has not corrupted his nature (fitra) because it reminds us of the absolute Power and Oneness of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taa'la. Please read post # 9 in this thread again & hope that will help. In fact read it with its context, start with verse 33 till verse 44.
​

 

[Eddy]

I am amazed that you are still stuck with science.

Well yes, this whole thread is about debunking the notion that the Quran has scientific errors

And you interpreted the hadith at your own, in a way you wanted. Where did the hadith or Quran say that the earth is stationary and does not move?

That is my assumption based on the fact that prophet Muhammad is asking Where does the sun goes after sunset?
I'm trying to understand what was prophet Muhammad understanding of the solar system.
If we assume that the earth is rotating then sunset is changing location every single minute.
If sunset is changing location every minute then Muhammad question makes no sense.

Where does it say that sun stops? That's your interpretation, Quran clearly says that it moves until its appointed time. Hadith only says that it seeks permission to rise every day

Quran 36 verse 38
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point.
It has been translated as prostrating or resting point, etc.

Can science contradict that? It can't because you need to have a clear proof to anything in science which you don't have. May be I should ask you to prove that the sun does not seek Allah's permission to rise every day?
As mentioned in one of my earlier post that man’s knowledge is such that it has been changing in every age and what he seems to know today might change tomorrow. The people of the ancient times on the basis of their observations of the sun believed that it was moving round the earth. In 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the center of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy. The point is that Quran never changed while science kept changing and eventually came to same conclusion which Quran has come up with 1400+ years ago.

Agree with all that but doesn't help to solve the 24 hour cycle scientific explanation.
I'm only interested in the 24 hour cycle which happens every time Allah gives the sun permission to rise again.
We are not interested in the final trip which happens when permission is denied.

What does the hadith say? It says that the sun submits to God's Will and when the time will come Allah will ask Sun to rise from the West and that is a major sign for the Day of Judgement. Does this contradict with science? It does not, I gave some links to most current scientific research which actually suggest that the Sun may rise from the West.

That's the part of the Hadith we are not touching because that happens when permission is denied.
The reason we are not interested in that part is because that hasn't happened yet, we only know what happens every 24 hours.

You are also missing the whole point of our discussion so far. Scientific knowledge is never CERTAIN. I gave one example earlier in the form of old scientific beliefs about the Sun. Another example, is that Allah said in the Quran that the universe is expanding:
And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander. (Quran 51:47)
Now if you rely on science then people before 1920 would have used the above verse to say that Quran has scientific error. We now know that the error was not in Quran but was in our limited knowledge and observations. Science before 1920 had established that the universe had always been in existence; also, that the size of the universe was fixed and not changing. Science discovered only a century ago that the scientists were wrong and in fact universe has a beginning and it is expanding. In the end, science has to agree with what Quran has been saying for 1400+ years. Don't limit your intellect to something which is not certain and changes with time, rather focus on what you gain from these verse.
These verses are powerful verses for someone who has not corrupted his nature (fitra) because it reminds us of the absolute Power and Oneness of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taa'la. Please read post # 9 in this thread again & hope that will help. In fact read it with its context, start with verse 33 till verse 44.

I don't disagree with any of that but I'm trying to be very focus on a very small part of the Quran and only in part of the Hadith I mentioned.

The objective:
Focus in the 24 hour cycle (day and night),The cycle that begins when Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again.
Only on the 24 hour cycle and on prophet Muhammad's initial question.
Where does the sun goes after sunset?
I don't think anybody has answered why prophet Muhammad asked this question.
If he knew how the solar system works then he shouldn't have asked this question because makes no sense.
The question makes no sense and the answer doesn't either.
Of course speaking according to what we know now.
An easy way out is to say is all figurative speech or a metaphor but that can be taken as a cop-out.

I understand it must be frustration answering my questions but believe me I do appreciate it.