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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 02:44 AM
PUTRAJAYA, MALAYSIA: Islam is not about turban and beard, said the Federal Court in dismissing an appeal by three pupils who were expelled from school nine years ago for refusing to take off their 'serban' ('turban' in Malay Language).

The panel of three judges led by Court of Appeal president Tan Sri Abdul Malek Ahmad was unanimous in their decision that not everything that Prophet Muhammad did - or the way he did it - is legally or religiously binding on Muslims, or even preferable and should be followed.

In the panel were also Chief Judge of Sabah and Sarawak Justice Steve Shim and Federal Court judge Justice Abdul Hamid Mohammad.

In his written judgment, Justice Abdul Hamid said that he accepted that Prophet Muhammad wore a turban but added that the Prophet also rode a camel, built his house and mosque with clay walls and roof of date palm leaves and brushed his teeth with the twig of a plant.

"Does that make riding a camel a more pious deed than travelling in an aeroplane?" he asked in the judgment read out by Federal Court deputy registrar Kamaruddin Kamsun.

"Is it preferable to build houses and mosques using the same materials use by the Prophet and the same architecture adopted by him during his time?"
In 1997, SK Serting Felda headmistress, Fatimah Sihi expelled Meor Atiqulrahman Ishak, then 13, and two other students - brothers Syed Abdullah Khaliq Aslamy Syed Ahmad Johari, then 11, and Syed Ahmad Syakur Dihya Syed Ahmad Johari, then 10 - for wearing turban to school.

On August 6, 1999, the High Court revoked the expulsion order, ruling that the headmistress had no power to expel the students for wearing the headgear.

On November 22, 2004, the Court of Appeal set aside the High Court ruling.

Justice Abdul Hamid said: "The question is whether the wearing of turban by boys of the age of the appellants is a practice of the religion of Islam?"

"The pagan Arabs wore turbans and kept beards. It was quite natural for the Prophet, born in the community and growing up to it, to do the same."

He added that other people living in the desert or semi-desert areas, such as the Afghans and Persians, also wear turbans.

"It is interesting to note that very few of our muftis and hardly any Syariah court judge wear the turban", he said.

Justice Abdul Hamid said the court could not ignore the education system that had helped boys and girls to grow up as Malaysians, and educationists should be given respect and credit when they formulate regulations for the general good of students and society.

Describing the father of the two brothers as 'arrogant', Justice Abdul Hamid said Syed Ahmad Johari Syed Mohamed wanted the three appellants to wear turban to school because the turban is the "family's emblem."

He said he could not accept the submission of the students' counsel Mohamed Hanipa Maidin that the school regulation violated the provisions of the Constitution.

Mohamed Hanipa had submitted that the appeal was related to the right to practice one's religion and that includes every religious practice that has some basis or has become part of the religion, whether mandatory or otherwise.

"To accept the learned counsel's argument would mean that anybody has a right to do anything, at any time and anywhere he considers to be a practice of his religion, no matter how trivial," said Justice Abdul Hamid.

Outside the courtroom, Syed Ahmad Johari said he was upset because the school regulations emerged only after his sons started wearing the turban.

"However, I respect this decisionof this court," he said.

Syed Ahmad Johari, a public school teacher, who wears a turban and also dons a 'jubah' (robe), said he would discuss with his lawyers the probability of taking this matter to the Syariah Court.

"Although it is a defeat for me, it is a victory for Islam because the issue has been brought to the highest court of the land (Malaysia). At least the public would be aware of it," said the 48-year-old father, who came to court together with his sons, all wearing turbans.

THE STAR, 13.07.2006 - FRONT PAGE
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searchingsoul
07-13-2006, 03:25 AM
I think that Justice Abdul Hamid makes some valid points. I've heard similar arguments from many Westernized Muslims. I've always wondered where they draw the line and what criteria they use to make such arguments.
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Joe98
07-13-2006, 04:51 AM
I am astonished that such things go before the very busy courts.
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Malaikah
07-13-2006, 04:53 AM
:sl:

turban is one thing, but beard is fard:rollseyes
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 06:08 AM
For me, I dont say wearing a turban is obliged in Islam, but if a student want to wear it, i think it's not a problem. But yet, rules are rules.

Having beard is not allowed in most public schools - reason - I DONT KNOW.
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
I am astonished that such things go before the very busy courts.
And more to come:

1) what kind of hijab allowed in school - according to school regulations it must be the 'triangle' hijab or 'labuh' hijab. Fashionable hijab not allowed.

2) Can a Muslim student be excluded from the obligatory Islamic Education in schools?

Schools in Malaysia is so strict especially dress code. No this, No that... In my secondary school we were reminded to wear only white underwear, because our trousers are white. If we wear coloured briefs, everybody can see it (I mean the underwear). And I dont like white slacks, easy to get dirty.
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searchingsoul
07-13-2006, 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

turban is one thing, but beard is fard:rollseyes

Help me out here. I had to look up the meaning of fard. I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fard

Fard also farida (فرض "obligation, duty") is an Islamic Arabic term which denotes a religious duty.

The law distinguishes two sorts of duties: individual (fard ayn) and collective (fard kifaya). The first relates to tasks every Muslim is required to perform, like the daily prayer (salat) or the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime (hajj). The second is a duty which is imposed on the whole community of believers (ummah). The classic example for the fard kifaya is jihad: the individual is not required to perform it as long as a sufficient number of community members fulfil it.

If this is accurate, does it mean that as long as other men in the community have beards, others don't have to?
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Malaikah
07-13-2006, 06:36 AM
:sl:

fard- obligatory

from what i know all muslim men cant shave their beards, they have to let it grow.
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searchingsoul
07-13-2006, 06:38 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

fard- obligatory

from what i know all muslim men cant shave their beards, they have to let it grow.

Thanks Cheese. Again this is confusing me. It's like the hijab issue. I rarely see either.

Is the beard rule pretty much practiced only by the really conservative Muslims?

Do you think that the Muslim men without beards don't believe in the beard being fard, or do they not care?
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syilla
07-13-2006, 06:39 AM
i thought about posting this too...

but u r faster than me... hehe...

Quoted below from NST.

"Whether we like it or not, we have to accept that Malaysia is not the same as a Malay state prior to the coming of the British. She is multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-lingual and multi-religious. By any standard, Malaysia's success has been miraculous in terms of unity, peace and prosperity.

"Whatever other factors contributed to it, we cannot ignore that the educational system helped mould the minds of Malaysian boys and girls to grow up as Malaysians.

"Our educationists, with their experience in dealing with students on the ground, should be given respect and credit when they formulate regulations for the general good of students, society and nation".

"The students are not allowed to wear turban as part of the school uniform. They are not prevented from wearing the turban at other times.

"Even in school, they would not be prevented from wearing the turban when they perform, say, their Zohor prayers in the prayer room.

"Should they be allowed to war the jubah (robe) when playing football because it was the practice of the Prophet to wear the jubah?

"Certainly, there is a place for everything." he said.

Hamid said that the practice of wearing a turban was of little significance from Islam's point of view, more so in relation to young boys.

He noted that there was no mention about the wearing of a turban in the Quran.

" I accept that the Prophet worn a turban.

"But he also rode a camel, built his house and mosque with clay walls and a roof of leaves of date palms, and brushed his teeth with the twig of a plant," Hamid said in the judment, delivered by Federal Court Deputy Registrar Kamaruddin Kamsun.

"Does that make riding a camel a more pious deed than travelling in an aeroplane?

Is it preferable to build houses and mosques using the same materials used by the Prophet and the same architecture adopted by him during his time?"
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

fard- obligatory

from what i know all muslim men cant shave their beards, they have to let it grow.
any authority on this?:?
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Thanks Cheese. Again this is confusing me. It's like the hijab issue. I rarely see either.

Is the beard rule pretty much practiced only by the really conservative Muslims?

Do you think that the Muslim men without beards don't believe in the beard being fard, or do they not care?
I dont know about cheese, but in Malaysia, keeping beard is a 'sunna' (prophet tradition), if you keep beard you got extra merits. If you dont keep a beard you got no sins.
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searchingsoul
07-13-2006, 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I dont know about cheese, but in Malaysia, keeping beard is a 'sunna' (prophet tradition), if you keep beard you got extra merits. If you dont keep a beard you got no sins.
So it's more cultural and not scripturally based (beard being fard). gotcha
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 07:08 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
i thought about posting this too...

but u r faster than me... hehe...

Quoted below from NST.

"Whether we like it or not, we have to accept that Malaysia is not the same as a Malay state prior to the coming of the British. She is multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-lingual and multi-religious. By any standard, Malaysia's success has been miraculous in terms of unity, peace and prosperity.

"Whatever other factors contributed to it, we cannot ignore that the educational system helped mould the minds of Malaysian boys and girls to grow up as Malaysians.

"Our educationists, with their experience in dealing with students on the ground, should be given respect and credit when they formulate regulations for the general good of students, society and nation".

"The students are not allowed to wear turban as part of the school uniform. They are not prevented from wearing the turban at other times.

"Even in school, they would not be prevented from wearing the turban when they perform, say, their Zohor prayers in the prayer room.

"Should they be allowed to war the jubah (robe) when playing football because it was the practice of the Prophet to wear the jubah?

"Certainly, there is a place for everything." he said.

Hamid said that the practice of wearing a turban was of little significance from Islam's point of view, more so in relation to young boys.

He noted that there was no mention about the wearing of a turban in the Quran.

" I accept that the Prophet worn a turban.

"But he also rode a camel, built his house and mosque with clay walls and a roof of leaves of date palms, and brushed his teeth with the twig of a plant," Hamid said in the judment, delivered by Federal Court Deputy Registrar Kamaruddin Kamsun.

"Does that make riding a camel a more pious deed than travelling in an aeroplane?

Is it preferable to build houses and mosques using the same materials used by the Prophet and the same architecture adopted by him during his time?"
You should read the reports on Malayan Law Journal. Actually it's like 'gajah sama gajah berperang, pelanduk mati di tengah' (Elephant fighting another elephant, and deer dead in the centre) - Headmistress vs. Father of the pupils - the victims are those 3 boys. The father commanded them to wear turban, the headmistress commanded them not to wear turban. Conclusion - the boys expelled and deprived of free education. I blame it on both father and headmistress.
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
So it's more cultural and not scripturally based (beard being fard). gotcha
It's not cultural, but how highest religious authority interpret authorities and give rulings.

For example, in Saudi Arabia, 'Mawlid el Nabawi' (Celebration of Prophet Muhammad's birthday) is haraam (prohibited) because of 'bid'ah' (innovation). But in Malaysia, it's national celebration and considered as 'bid'ah hasanah' (good innovation).
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Malaikah
07-13-2006, 07:13 AM
There have been many threads on this issue in the forum, you might want to look for one.
Shaving the beard is unlawful in Islam. There are many statements related from the Prophet (peace be upon him) in this regard such as the one related by Abu Hurayrah “Clip your moustaches and let your beards grow. Be different than Magians.” [Sahîh Muslim (260)] and the one related by Ibn `Umar that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Be different than polytheists. Let your beards grow and trim your moustaches [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (5892) & Sahîh Muslim (259)].
Source

I know many people think that it is only sunnah but they are generally ignorant on the issue.

Also, about the hijab issue, not all Muslims practise Islam. Some dont care that they are sinning, they like to look good, they are living in a society that promotes exposure not concealing, etc. there are so many reasons women dont wear hijab, but they all know that it is complosury.
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Dahir
07-13-2006, 07:18 AM
Having beard is not allowed in most public schools - reason - I DONT KNOW.
WHAT??? You have to be joking!!!

Half the guys in my school have beards, most are around 15 or 16, hairyness runs in their families, and they can't control it, I guess.

Still, banning beards is the greatest human/civil rights violating in history!

Oh man, my ear bleeds from that statement.

Most people with beards in my town and school are in it as a "Grunge, Heavy Metal" fashion statement, not for religion, which moreso should okay it, but, wow, Malaysia is strange, I mean, I've heard rumors about Malaysia and Singapore being spotlessly strict, but WOW!;D
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searchingsoul
07-13-2006, 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
There have been many threads on this issue in the forum, you might want to look for one.


Source

I know many people think that it is only sunnah but they are generally ignorant on the issue.

Also, about the hijab issue, not all Muslims practise Islam. Some dont care that they are sinning, they like to look good, they are living in a society that promotes exposure not concealing, etc. there are so many reasons women dont wear hijab, but they all know that it is complosury.
So there is a noted disagreement as far as Islamic religious opinion is concerned? That's all I need to know. Thanks.
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
There have been many threads on this issue in the forum, you might want to look for one.


Source

I know many people think that it is only sunnah but they are generally ignorant on the issue.

Also, about the hijab issue, not all Muslims practise Islam. Some dont care that they are sinning, they like to look good, they are living in a society that promotes exposure not concealing, etc. there are so many reasons women dont wear hijab, but they all know that it is complosury.

I dont say people who say it's obligatory is wrong. But our Muftis and most Clerics saying that it just a sunnah. Because the prophet didnt tell that if u dont keep beard you'll get sins. Plus, if we Muslims want to be different than Non Muslims, should we abandon our western clothes?

Regarding to hijab, it's not wrong to say it's obligatory. But 'Sisters in Islam' organization in Malaysia says that Hijab is a right not a duty, using the same authorities that people who says it's obligatory used. It just different interpretations.
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 07:32 AM
Originally Posted by Dahir
WHAT??? You have to be joking!!!

Half the guys in my school have beards, most are around 15 or 16, hairyness runs in their families, and they can't control it, I guess.

Still, banning beards is the greatest human/civil rights violating in history!

Oh man, my ear bleeds from that statement.

Most people with beards in my town and school are in it as a "Grunge, Heavy Metal" fashion statement, not for religion, which moreso should okay it, but, wow, Malaysia is strange, I mean, I've heard rumors about Malaysia and Singapore being spotlessly strict, but WOW!;D
For those who have DNA of hairyness, they must at least trim it. But it's not really being enforced. But it's on the rules and regulations. Even your hairstyles could be against the rules and regulations.
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
So there is a noted disagreement as far as Islamic religious opinion is concerned? That's all I need to know. Thanks.
Muslims can disagree in matter which is not really specifically being told in Koran and Hadith. But for basic Islamic teaching mentioned in Koran and Hadith specifically and elaborately. Muslims must follow, regardless whether they're salafi, shiite, shafii, maliki, ibadhi, liberal islam whatever.
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searchingsoul
07-13-2006, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Muslims can disagree in matter which is not really specifically being told in Koran and Hadith. But for basic Islamic teaching mentioned in Koran and Hadith specifically and elaborately. Muslims must follow, regardless whether they're salafi, shiite, shafii, maliki, ibadhi, liberal islam whatever.

Thank you North_Maylaysian. This would explain the different branches (or beliefs) of Islam. I'm starting to understand that Islam is open to different beliefs and not as black and white as I once thought. :)
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north_malaysian
07-13-2006, 07:56 AM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Thank you North_Maylaysian. This would explain the different branches (or beliefs) of Islam. I'm starting to understand that Islam is open to different beliefs and not as black and white as I once thought. :)
Just take Koran verse (5:51) for example:

for literalists - Muslims cant make friends with Jews and Christians.
But for most Muslims - we can be friends with Jews, Christians etc. Further explanation: http://www.answering-christianity.co...ri/friends.htm
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Ghazi
07-13-2006, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
So it's more cultural and not scripturally based (beard being fard). gotcha
:sl:

It's got nothing to do with culture it's haraam for any man to shave his beard unless for medical reasons.
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Mawaddah
07-13-2006, 12:51 PM
Well......They shouldn't be wearing the Turban in Malaysia since that would be considered as Shuhrah, and also because it is out of norms of the Malaysian custom.And they shouldn't have made such a big fuss out of it because Turban is not obligatory to wear.

But this Sisters of Islam organization that north_malaysian is mentioning is absolutely rubbish and I am amazed that they really even think that they are 'Islamic' they are far from that!! How can they say that Hijab is not necessary? that's one big flaw for you there. The Qur'an itself says that it is waajib.
A lot of things that this organization has said which has caused me to raise my eyebrows and really question their motives......Islamic?? My Foot.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-13-2006, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

turban is one thing, but beard is fard:rollseyes
lets not disregard the concensus of all imams.

but yes i too think it to be wajib IF NOT fard
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Malaikah
07-13-2006, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
lets not disregard the concensus of all imams.

but yes i too think it to be wajib IF NOT fard
:sl:

what do you mean? by the imams part?

and if its wajib and not fard woops thats my mistake:rollseyes although they come to the same effect= no shaving beards
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-13-2006, 01:09 PM
^ Agreed. Too bad theres no shariah
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Dhulqarnaeen
07-13-2006, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I dont say people who say it's obligatory is wrong. But our Muftis and most Clerics saying that it just a sunnah. Because the prophet didnt tell that if u dont keep beard you'll get sins. Plus, if we Muslims want to be different than Non Muslims, should we abandon our western clothes?

Regarding to hijab, it's not wrong to say it's obligatory. But 'Sisters in Islam' organization in Malaysia says that Hijab is a right not a duty, using the same authorities that people who says it's obligatory used. It just different interpretations.
:sl:
Amazing, naqli first and then aqli. A beard is wajeeb, a lot of hadith mention about this and all hadith concern beard is a commands and according kaidah, hadith taht show a comand then its wajeeb.
And can you tell us north malaysian who is those people you called mufti? A lot of people called mufti but actually they dont deserve the title cause they dont have the right conditions to be a mufti. To be a mufti then they must fullfill all the conditions, such as:
1. they remember Qur an 30 juz
2. They remember hadith
3. They know and fahm about tafseerul quran, and all kaidahs in it.
4. they understand mustalah hadith, and all the knowledges concern hadiths, such as nasikh wa masukh and all. Also nasikh wa masukh in Quran.
5. They must understand and talk arabic fluently, cause Islam revealed in Arabic and Quran in Arabic.
6. They must understand the ikhtilaf of all ulama.
7. They must have a good salafy aqidah and thiqoh.
So, Im wondering who is these people you called mufti yaa akhee? As I know theres no mufti (with the real meaning of mufti, or ulama warosatul anbiya) in malaysia, not yet. And IF the mufti said its sunnah to keep beard then he is totally wrong masha Allah. Cause theres no ikhtilaf about keeping beard is wajeeb fo every muslim. Daleels is a lot in Quran and sunnah. Dont we are told to follow Rasulullah shalallahu alaihi wasallam if we really love Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala? Dont we are told that we have no choice if Allah has give us one law, then we dont have any choice and we may not choose whatever we like from this dien. And then Rasulullah told us "grow your beard and trim your mustache", or he said "grow your beard and trim your mustache, dont be like majoosy cause they grow their mustache and cut their beard", and akhee tashabbuh to kafereen is haram of halal? Its haram right. So if we cut our beard then Rasulullah told us we will looklike majusi, that means we ma not do that and its haram to do that.
And also growing our beard is sunnah all anbiya, dont we remember in Quran said when Musa alaihis salam mad to Harun then he pull Haruns beard? All anbiya have beards even Jesus painted bu those lost christian having a beard ;D . Cause BEARD is fitrah for men, and to change the fitrah is a big sin. And by cutting our beard thats mean we will do tashabbuh to women, and its haram cause Rasulullah said "Allah curse men who looklike women and women who looklike men". If we cut our beard, thats mean we make our self looklike women, cause women doesnt have beard, so we must different from them. And if make our self same with women, then its a sin akhee believe me. So cutting beard is not just a sunnah, but its a sin for men to cut their beard. And its wajeeb. No ikhtilaf bainal ulama concern about this matter.
How long? theres two opinions about this, First is keep the beard as length as our fist, or just keeping it long and dont cut it. But I choose the first opinion that Im keeping my beard as length as my fist.
by the way, one of my ustadh ever told me, that someman who cu his beard ever walked along the Meccahs street, and theres some seller called him "yaa Siti Rahma, where are you going???" ;D Poor him I think.
And also if you read the history/tarikh of all the companions, then you will find ALL of them have a beard, if its really just a sunnah, then maybe some of them will cut the beard right?
And Allah is the most beautiful, and He love beautiful things. thats why He made fitrah for men with the beard, cause its beautiful and Allah know best and we just know a little tiny things fropm His ilm :rollseyes . Wallahu taufiq wallahu a'lam.
and about hijab, wearing hijab is a right and not a duty?And its a right of ALL parents to hit their daughters if they dont wanna wear hijab :rant: Cause by lettng them uncover then htaht means we let our daughters enter hells as Rasulullah said "There will come two types of human that I never see before. First, a man who hold "cambuk"(what you call cambuk in english?" and hit people with it. And women who dress but naked. And they move their head like a camel. They wont enter heaven and they even wont sense the smell of heaven". So if we really love our daughters then MAKE THEM wearing hijab, and if they reasoning its HOT, tell them that HELL is more hot than wearing hijab. And later on they will get use to it insha Allah. Its our duty to guide our children to the right path, like Quran said "Yaa Ayyuhalladhina amanuu, kuu anfusakum wa ahlikum naaro...". So if they dont wanna wear hijab, then force them, you gotta force them. Its for their own good masha Allah. But its best to wear hijab to our daughters since theyre still a kid, so they will get use to it easier insha Allah.
And by to say that wearing hijab is a RIGHT, then its just a talbis iblis, and as if its meant to make people think that its your RIGHT to not wearing hijab :rant: . And thats a really bad statements from some organization called "sisters in Islam (???)". Wallahu yahdihuma, amin. Sometimes mouth really can lead person to hell right, wal iyadhubillah. So must be carefull with our statements.

So akheel kareem, choose your ulama, ulama waropsatul anbiya and be aware of those juhalaa. Hafidhakallah
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Dhulqarnaeen
07-13-2006, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Muslims can disagree in matter which is not really specifically being told in Koran and Hadith. But for basic Islamic teaching mentioned in Koran and Hadith specifically and elaborately. Muslims must follow, regardless whether they're salafi, shiite, shafii, maliki, ibadhi, liberal islam whatever.
:sl:
Yes...muslims can disagree in a matter which is not really specifically being told in quran and hadith. But what kinda muslims may disagree? Muslim like us? Who are us? We are no one, just usual muslim. And we just have a little knowledge about Islam, so how can we able to make tafseer of ayah mutsabihaat? Cause if one matter not really specifically being told quran, then thats mean the verse still in general meaning and can cause a lot of interpretation, its called ayah mutashabihaat. Thats why we have to read the explanations about this from our scholars book. So we may not say we individually agree or disagree about one matter in dien, but we just read the book of ulama and let evrybody know insha Allah.
--- Allahu A'lam.
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amirah_87
07-13-2006, 06:19 PM
ass salaamu alaykum

maahsaAllah bro ..thnks for the info...just wanna correct one thing though if that's okay!!.....

ulama waropsatul anbiya
al-ulamaah warathatul an-biyaa!!...the inheriters of the prophets!!

wa alaykum ass salaam :peace:
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Fishman
07-13-2006, 06:31 PM
:sl:
I don't think wearing a turban is recommended at all. It is not specifically prescribed, and it does not distinguish you from non-Muslims, as Sikhs often wear one. I think its just a cultural thing.
:w:
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M H Kahn
07-13-2006, 07:39 PM
What are the religious gains of wearing a turban and what are the losses, if any, when turban not worn? Will anybody come forward with authentic documents to explain the issue ?
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Fishman
07-13-2006, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
What are the religious gains of wearing a turban and what are the losses, if any, when turban not worn? Will anybody come forward with authentic documents to explain the issue ?
:sl:
Here's a fatwa on it.

I don't think that there are any religious gains to wearing a turban, other than being certain that what you are wearing isn't haram. It is not prescribed specifically, and if the average person in the street sees you then they will not be able to tell if you are a Muslim or a Sikh. I think wearing a cap or a kufi is better, because most people will recoginse that you are a Muslim. You are also imitating the believers if you wear one.
:w:
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M H Kahn
07-14-2006, 03:10 AM
:sl:
The fatwa on the turban:
Question: Is it Sunnah to wear a hat known as a “topi” or to wear a turban?”

Answered by Sheikh Ahmad al-Khalîl, professor at al-Imâm University, Qasîm Branch It is known that the Prophet (peace be upon him) wore a turban. `Amr b. Hurayth said: “I saw the Prophet (peace be upon him) on the pulpit and he was wearing a black turban with its ends resting on his shoulders.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd]. In another narration in Sahîh Muslim it reads: “It is as if I see the Prophet (peace be upon him) wearing a black turban having each end laying on each side.” Also, al-Tirmidhî narrated that the Prophet (peace be upon him) wore a black turban, laying each end between his shoulders.

This was also a mode of dress employed by the Companions. Nâfi` relates that Ibn `Umar used to wear a turban. `Ubayd Allah relates that he saw al-Qâsim and Sulaym wearing it.

As for the ruling on wearing a turban in Islamic Law, this is a matter of disagreement among scholars. Some say it is Sunnah to wear a turban, because the Prophet (peace be upon him) wore it, while others say that this is something that depends purely on custom. They argue that the Sunnah is to dress according to what is deemed correct and proper within the context of customs and tradition. Customs and traditions vary from time to time and from place to place.

This argument is even more applicable to a mere hat.

And Allah knows best.
It seems from the information given in the fatwa that though Mohammed (pbuh) used to wear turban, he never said that wearing a turban would be a Muslim's religious duty.
Reply

north_malaysian
07-14-2006, 03:28 AM
Originally Posted by Mawaddah
Well......They shouldn't be wearing the Turban in Malaysia since that would be considered as Shuhrah, and also because it is out of norms of the Malaysian custom.And they shouldn't have made such a big fuss out of it because Turban is not obligatory to wear.

But this Sisters of Islam organization that north_malaysian is mentioning is absolutely rubbish and I am amazed that they really even think that they are 'Islamic' they are far from that!! How can they say that Hijab is not necessary? that's one big flaw for you there. The Qur'an itself says that it is waajib.
A lot of things that this organization has said which has caused me to raise my eyebrows and really question their motives......Islamic?? My Foot.
Sisters in Islam (SIS) is hated by almost all Muslims because they're too feminist and too liberal (They support amina Wadood). The problem is that, among the patrons of SIS are Nori Abdullah (Malaysian PM's daughter) and Marina Mahathir (former Malaysian PM's daughter). They voiced their statements in all daily newspaper (which is controlled by gov't) and of course the 'Al Islam' magazine (which is so liberal).
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-14-2006, 03:47 AM
Islam is not about turban and beard
The turban part is true, but the beard is clearly an obligation in Islam.

:w:
Reply

lolwatever
07-14-2006, 03:54 AM
i think it's a riduculous argument they used against the kids...

It's kinda like saying Islam isn't about the hijab and modesty for women..
Reply

shaharoun
07-14-2006, 04:12 AM
:sl:
Ohh!!
Wearing a turban and leaving the beard,no one can deny if they are not islamic acts(sunnah),although the latter is more strong than the former.
if no one avoid you to practise them why don't you practise?
If the laws of the state forbid you,do you feel pain for such an act?
if not why?
And if you feel you can't do them or one of them to be quiet is better foryou than deny.
Reply

north_malaysian
07-14-2006, 04:25 AM
Our Education minister, Datuk Hishamuddin Bin Hussein is relieved of the court rulings.

"This mean that people cannot accuse the ministry of making an emotional decision"

It is clear that our school uniforms do not go against our religion. We made it uniform to ensure that there was no difference to race or religion or tho whether we are rich or poor. This is something which the court took into consideration."

The Star, 14.07.2006, page N10.
Reply

Muhammad
07-14-2006, 09:48 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Fishman
and if the average person in the street sees you then they will not be able to tell if you are a Muslim or a Sikh. I think wearing a cap or a kufi is better, because most people will recoginse that you are a Muslim. You are also imitating the believers if you wear one.
Muslims and Sikhs wear their turbans differently - for example, Muslims have a bit hanging down from the back of their turbans, whereas Sikhs do not. The shape at the forehead is also different. And in conjunction with the rest of the Muslim dress, it's not all that hard to tell between a Muslim and a Sikh :).
Reply

syilla
07-14-2006, 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Sisters in Islam (SIS) is hated by almost all Muslims because they're too feminist and too liberal (They support amina Wadood). The problem is that, among the patrons of SIS are Nori Abdullah (Malaysian PM's daughter) and Marina Mahathir (former Malaysian PM's daughter). They voiced their statements in all daily newspaper (which is controlled by gov't) and of course the 'Al Islam' magazine (which is so liberal).
i just don't understand astora jabat ...claiming himself an ulama'.

why our ulama' doesn't say anything about SIS...

as quoted by Mawaddah.... SIS my foot.
Reply

duke
07-14-2006, 11:28 AM
does turban or beard makes u a good muslims?
Reply

S_87
07-14-2006, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by duke
does turban or beard makes u a good muslims?
no it does not
Reply

duke
07-14-2006, 11:39 AM
i think so. some of my muslims friend don't have turban or beard. but they still are a good muslims to me (whatever good muslims means to you).
Reply

Malaikah
07-14-2006, 11:41 AM
:sl:

but having a beard is obligatory, if they shave they are going against what God ordered them to do. people will argue that 'its just a beard, hair doesnt make you a muslim' but thats just lame becuase thats not what its about- the point is, God said do this, so you do it. thats it.
Reply

M H Kahn
07-14-2006, 03:08 PM
The prophet did not say that the turban is a part of deen. But still with the intention for the satisfaction of Allah one may wear the turban to earn Allah's blessings.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-14-2006, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

but having a beard is obligatory, if they shave they are going against what God ordered them to do. people will argue that 'its just a beard, hair doesnt make you a muslim' but thats just lame becuase thats not what its about- the point is, God said do this, so you do it. thats it.
sis, "CONCENSUS" !! even we truelly believe its wajib we cant force that impression on everyone coz theres too many ulama :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes who call it sunnah....
Reply

syilla
07-14-2006, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
sis, "CONCENSUS" !! even we truelly believe its wajib we cant force that impression on everyone coz theres too many ulama :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes who call it sunnah....
can anyone post fatwa saying that having beard is wajib or not...
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-14-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by syilla
can anyone post fatwa saying that having beard is wajib or not...
i think all madhabs agree that its wajib, shocking to see so many clean shaven faces
Reply

Isaac
07-14-2006, 04:41 PM
What i dont get is, regardless if its sunnah or wajib, why are we doing that which nabi muhahmmed pbuh orderd us against. Did he muhammed pbuh say oppose the jews and christians, i.e trim your mustache close and allow you beard to grow?

Is not the sunnah of muhammed pbuh enough for muslim men who hold their prohet close to their hearts and love him more than we are suppose to love our parents enough for us o follow his way. Why does something have to be wajib for us in order to show our love for our prophet.


Is it really that hard? Its better to admit your illness then to ignore it.
Reply

Muhammad
07-14-2006, 07:19 PM
:sl:

Threads about the beard:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ing-beard.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ned-beard.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ing-beard.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...his-beard.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...nah-wajib.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...ab-middle.html
Reply

Fishman
07-14-2006, 07:57 PM
:sl:
[link removed]
:w:
Reply

M H Kahn
07-15-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by duke
does turban or beard makes u a good muslims?
:sl:
A man, to be a Muslim, must have the untainted faith that he shall worship none but Allah alone and must believe in His revelations. A turban or beard will come only after one has become a Muslim in faith, to be a better Muslim.
Reply

M H Kahn
07-15-2006, 05:02 PM
Mere turban or beard cannot make a man a Muslim. Becoming a Muslim requires understanding Islam and accepting it as the only code of life.
Reply

Dhulqarnaeen
07-15-2006, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by duke
does turban or beard makes u a good muslims?
Its Islam which will make us a better person. All of us no exceptions. And Beard cant make anyone better, isnt it george washington (if Im not mistaken) also wearing beard but he is KAFEREEN? No beard cant make anyone to be better man. But beard, for a muslim, its their sign from the kafereen. Islam have its own sign that showing the dignity, and we may not follow what non muslims do, wear and say.
And for us, in ISLAM, eeeeeeeeeeeeverything which came from our GOD and His prophet are good, nothing can be bad. Nothing can harm us. For a muslim, following the Gods rule is a way of life. Just like when you wanna buy a car. Then how can you understand about the car if you dont have the book manual to take care the car, so it wont broken in a short time? Just like us, we are human, and we need the book manual for us, and theres no manual book better than Quran. Its a Gods law, the Quran. And Prophet Muhammad shalallahu alaihi wasallam (peace be upon him) sent to explain the Quran, so muslims wont be lost understand it. And Allah, our GOD, know what is best for us :brother: , no wonder right? Cause He is the one who created us with His glorious hands. So thats why he make growing beard as a obligation in Islam. And its called sunnah, an example from our prophet. And everything which is sunnah, will certainly give profits to us, to muslim, even non muslim can also feel the profit. Cause sunnah is for human, and its for our advantage. Just like beard, do U think growing beard dont bring any manfaat to men? It is. Scientific proved it. I read in newspaper there was a research in USA that proved that men ith a beard have smaller chance got a heart attack, subhanallah. And also our beloved prophet said that if theres a flies fall into your water, we should drown it, whole of it then after that we can throw it out. Why we should drown it? Cause a flies bring a disease in one of its wings but also have the cure in another wings. How did he know? Muhammad shalallahu alaihi wasallam even couldnt write and read, how did he know? And why his followers always obey him in whatever he said? Like growing beard and all. why alll the companions had beard? One of the answer is cause theyre sure that whatever the prophet ordered and did, thats the best for them, for their own good. And whatever the prophet said, then it wasnt come from him only, but its a guidance from above, from Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. And the hukm of beard is wajeeb.
And as a thurban, I remember I have read a book that said every hadith that said about the reward of wearing turban is all not sahih, and cant be held as hujjah. And if theres hadith about Rasulullah wearing thurban, and He didnt explain about the reward of it, then its not sunnah. And also its against hadith from him that explained about suhrah. Suhrah is somehting that we use/wear that make us different from people around us. And wearing suhrah is a sin. So if theres no hadith that explain about the reward of wearing thurban, then its not sunnah, and maybe its included to urf (tradition). So if its not our tradition to wear thurban, then we may not wearing it cause by wearing it, it will make us different from generally people. And its a sin. Allahu A'lam bisshawab
Reply

north_malaysian
07-16-2006, 12:18 AM
Is it true, that Sheikh Yusof Al Qardhawi said in his 'Al Halaal wal Haraam fil Islam' that keeping beard is a Sunnah, not wajib?:?
Reply

Dhulqarnaeen
07-16-2006, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Is it true, that Sheikh Yusof Al Qardhawi said in his 'Al Halaal wal Haraam fil Islam' that keeping beard is a Sunnah, not wajib?:?
:sl:
If I were you, I will search for fatawa from the kibaarul ulama in Saudi, such as Syaikh Bin Bazz rahimahullah, Syaikh Al Uthaymeen rahimahullah, Syaikh Albani rahimahullah, Syaikh Shalih Al Fawzan hafidhahullah, syaikh Al Jibreen Hafidhahullah, Syaikh Muqbeel bin Hadi rahimahullah, etc. And IF you wanna read the book of syaikh Al Qardhawi in "al halaal wal haraam fil Islam", please make sure that the book have a takhreej from syaikh Albani. I have it in Indonesia akhee.
And...mmmm...I have to remind you also that syaikh Qardhawi are wrong and weird in his fatawas. And I heard that his aqidah is asy'ariy. Read a book from syaikh Rabi' Al Madkhali concerning syaikh Qardhawi. You have to know yaa akhi, or else you will lost in some aspects. Allahu a'lam.
Reply

Dhulqarnaeen
07-16-2006, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
sis, "CONCENSUS" !! even we truelly believe its wajib we cant force that impression on everyone coz theres too many ulama :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes who call it sunnah....
:sl:
Yes right...they say "too many ulama", but its ulama in whose eyes? :X Is it in awwam peoples eyes? Or in kibaar Ulama's eyes? Cause so many people claim them self al ulama without any recomendation from kibaar ulama. We should read fatawa from Ulama Salaf cause theyre ulama warosatul anbiya. And theyre free of any importancy,they have no oraganization, they have no leader except Allah and Rasulullah, they are not taqlid with any mahdhab, and they dont afraid of anything to defend Islam.
And Lets say if you hear ulama like syaikh Al Qardhawi, its wellknown that Syaikh Al Qardhawi support Al Ikhwanul muslimeen in Egypt, so in some part of his fatawa, its abvious that his fatawa being brought to the harokah importancy. And their importancy is one of his consideration in giving fatawa. The prove is He allow suicide bombing in Palestine. Ulama salaf forbid it cause its clearly a suicide, but syaikh Al Qardhawi hafidhahullah allow it. Its the difference of their ilm, its abvious masha Allah.
Reply

Dhulqarnaeen
07-16-2006, 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
PUTRAJAYA, MALAYSIA: Islam is not about turban and beard, said the Federal Court in dismissing an appeal by three pupils who were expelled from school nine years ago for refusing to take off their 'serban' ('turban' in Malay Language).

The panel of three judges led by Court of Appeal president Tan Sri Abdul Malek Ahmad was unanimous in their decision that not everything that Prophet Muhammad did - or the way he did it - is legally or religiously binding on Muslims, or even preferable and should be followed.

In the panel were also Chief Judge of Sabah and Sarawak Justice Steve Shim and Federal Court judge Justice Abdul Hamid Mohammad.

In his written judgment, Justice Abdul Hamid said that he accepted that Prophet Muhammad wore a turban but added that the Prophet also rode a camel, built his house and mosque with clay walls and roof of date palm leaves and brushed his teeth with the twig of a plant.

"Does that make riding a camel a more pious deed than travelling in an aeroplane?" he asked in the judgment read out by Federal Court deputy registrar Kamaruddin Kamsun.

"Is it preferable to build houses and mosques using the same materials use by the Prophet and the same architecture adopted by him during his time?"
In 1997, SK Serting Felda headmistress, Fatimah Sihi expelled Meor Atiqulrahman Ishak, then 13, and two other students - brothers Syed Abdullah Khaliq Aslamy Syed Ahmad Johari, then 11, and Syed Ahmad Syakur Dihya Syed Ahmad Johari, then 10 - for wearing turban to school.

On August 6, 1999, the High Court revoked the expulsion order, ruling that the headmistress had no power to expel the students for wearing the headgear.

On November 22, 2004, the Court of Appeal set aside the High Court ruling.

Justice Abdul Hamid said: "The question is whether the wearing of turban by boys of the age of the appellants is a practice of the religion of Islam?"

"The pagan Arabs wore turbans and kept beards. It was quite natural for the Prophet, born in the community and growing up to it, to do the same."

He added that other people living in the desert or semi-desert areas, such as the Afghans and Persians, also wear turbans.

"It is interesting to note that very few of our muftis and hardly any Syariah court judge wear the turban", he said.

Justice Abdul Hamid said the court could not ignore the education system that had helped boys and girls to grow up as Malaysians, and educationists should be given respect and credit when they formulate regulations for the general good of students and society.

Describing the father of the two brothers as 'arrogant', Justice Abdul Hamid said Syed Ahmad Johari Syed Mohamed wanted the three appellants to wear turban to school because the turban is the "family's emblem."

He said he could not accept the submission of the students' counsel Mohamed Hanipa Maidin that the school regulation violated the provisions of the Constitution.

Mohamed Hanipa had submitted that the appeal was related to the right to practice one's religion and that includes every religious practice that has some basis or has become part of the religion, whether mandatory or otherwise.

"To accept the learned counsel's argument would mean that anybody has a right to do anything, at any time and anywhere he considers to be a practice of his religion, no matter how trivial," said Justice Abdul Hamid.

Outside the courtroom, Syed Ahmad Johari said he was upset because the school regulations emerged only after his sons started wearing the turban.

"However, I respect this decisionof this court," he said.

Syed Ahmad Johari, a public school teacher, who wears a turban and also dons a 'jubah' (robe), said he would discuss with his lawyers the probability of taking this matter to the Syariah Court.

"Although it is a defeat for me, it is a victory for Islam because the issue has been brought to the highest court of the land (Malaysia). At least the public would be aware of it," said the 48-year-old father, who came to court together with his sons, all wearing turbans.

THE STAR, 13.07.2006 - FRONT PAGE
:sl:
Its what those harokiyun and hizby declared in their forum. They said "Lets leave small things like beard, jubah, bid'ah, etc. We have more bigger things to deal with. Our bros and sis are slaughtered in Irak...blablabla" And they also say " we should have tolerance in every differences we have", and then they will bring hadith laa aslalahu "A differences in my ummah is rahmah". This is very very wrong. Cause if differences is rahmah, then a unity (of Islam) is a curse, although Allah ordered us to be Unity (wa laa tafarrokuu) and hold on in the law of Allah Azza wa jalla.
So I remind all muslims to watch out of this saying: Islam is not about turban and beard. Its a light word but have a big risk in the eye of syariah Islam. Cause this kinda people dont care about sunnah, cause they think its small things. How can they take care big things if they even cant do the small things first Im wondering. Allahu A'lam
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-16-2006, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Dhulqarnaeen
:sl:
Yes right...they say "too many ulama", but its ulama in whose eyes? :X Is it in awwam peoples eyes? Or in kibaar Ulama's eyes? Cause so many people claim them self al ulama without any recomendation from kibaar ulama. We should read fatawa from Ulama Salaf cause theyre ulama warosatul anbiya. And theyre free of any importancy,they have no oraganization, they have no leader except Allah and Rasulullah, they are not taqlid with any mahdhab, and they dont afraid of anything to defend Islam.
And Lets say if you hear ulama like syaikh Al Qardhawi, its wellknown that Syaikh Al Qardhawi support Al Ikhwanul muslimeen in Egypt, so in some part of his fatawa, its abvious that his fatawa being brought to the harokah importancy. And their importancy is one of his consideration in giving fatawa. The prove is He allow suicide bombing in Palestine. Ulama salaf forbid it cause its clearly a suicide, but syaikh Al Qardhawi hafidhahullah allow it. Its the difference of their ilm, its abvious masha Allah.
subhanALlah this both scared me and raised a lot of questions and doubts in my heart but i cant ask due to forum rulings :(
Reply

scentsofjannah
07-16-2006, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The turban part is true, but the beard is clearly an obligation in Islam.

:w:

Shaykh Haytham Tameem from Utrujj foundation www.utrujj.com said noone should make the beard a sixth pillar of Islam!...there are far more important things..like praying, helping the poor etc

terima kasih brother north malaysian for that superb article...though i donot agree with the school excluding those students..i think the arguments put forth by the Judge were superb..

:w:
Reply

north_malaysian
07-17-2006, 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by Dhulqarnaeen
And...mmmm...I have to remind you also that syaikh Qardhawi are wrong and weird in his fatawas. And I heard that his aqidah is asy'ariy.
My aqidah is according to ash'ari too, as well as 90% of Malaysians. Most Malaysians are opposed to Salafism. In fact in the state of Kedah, Salafi (a.k.a. Wahhabi is declared as heretic teaching). Only one state recognizes Salafism as official mazhab, namely Perlis.

I'm not oppose to Salafism, Ash'arism, Shiism, Sufism, Liberal Islam.. whatever because for me .. all of 'em are Muslims.
Reply

Mohsin
07-17-2006, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The turban part is true, but the beard is clearly an obligation in Islam.

:w:

:sl:

I've heard many scholars refuting the argum,ent that the turban is not a sunnah. The arguments used are that if you wear the turban out of the love of the prophet PBUH to get reward, as is the case in islam, then no doubt Allah SWT will give you the reward, and nobody can deny this. Also a scholar once replied to someone who said it was just culture to wear a turban, to which he replied, "Then i prefer the culture of the Prophet PBUH, the culture Allah SWT prefered for him to be a part of"

But like the article you provided, i've heard several other similar opinions, so there is clearly difference of opinion amongst the scholars, but from what i've seen most scholars agree that wearing thowbs and turbans are part of the sunnah
Reply

duke
07-17-2006, 10:51 AM
what does a moslem brother commit when he doesn't have both? is it a sin?
Reply

scentsofjannah
07-17-2006, 01:46 PM
no it isnt a sin but in Islam men should ideally have facial hair since thats part of their nature...and i really dont see it as obligatory as many scholars especially in Syria, North Africa etc dont have any beards...the turban part is cultural and its not exclusive to any culture..the hindus wear it..the sikhs do, the pagan arabs did.
Reply

Isaac
07-17-2006, 03:01 PM
sister the way you put it across sounds somewhat degrading of the turban. The sikhs have beards, the jews have beards? Nabi Muhammed pbuh had a way of wearing his imamah/turban. That was to be different from others by wearing a hat underneath. Like the brother said, if its to show your love for the prophet of allah, then surely allah will favour those and have a reward for them put aside. Allah u alim.

and about the beard issue, does it make a differenfce if scholars from some parts of the arab world do not have beards. does that make it any less important in they eyes of those that want to follow that which was orderd by the nabi of allah? Not to me. If we live of what other people do and thinks it ok because they do it, it doesnt neccesarily make it the right answer.

Inshallah those that truley follow the sunnah of muhammed pbuh for the sake of gaining the pleasure of their lord will be rewarded.
Reply

Nawal89
07-17-2006, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by scentsofjannah
Shaykh Haytham Tameem from Utrujj foundation www.utrujj.com said noone should make the beard a sixth pillar of Islam!...there are far more important things..like praying, helping the poor etc

terima kasih brother north malaysian for that superb article...though i donot agree with the school excluding those students..i think the arguments put forth by the Judge were superb..

:w:
Sister i disagree with you here. For a muslim whose trying to practice his deen, ,every small aspect of his religion matters. From the way he wears his clothes to whether he wears his shoes in the masjid or not. It's just WRONG to say that some part of this religion is "unimportant" because there are hungry people out there. You can keep your beard and feed the hungry people. nothing hard about that. And it's CLEAR that beard is fardh. wajib. Why do you want to go against that?
Reply

Isaac
07-17-2006, 05:05 PM
You know what today people make a big issue out of the beard. The answer is simple, obey allah and obey his nabi. Obey meaning to follow what was sent down to muahmmed pbuh and practiced by him. follow what he followed and stay away from that which he did not. Yes do not make it a sixt pillar. Yes feed the poor keep fast do hajj, we should be doing that regardless if we have a bead or not. To negate something because you dont have the knowledge or criteria as some people say is not the right way. You should do what ever good you can, when you can.
Reply

north_malaysian
07-18-2006, 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by scentsofjannah
and i really dont see it as obligatory as many scholars especially in Syria, North Africa etc dont have any beards....
In southeast Asia too.
Reply

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