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Duncan Ferguson
06-28-2007, 02:24 PM
I have a question. Do Muslims see democracy as a good thing? Why are there so few democracies in the Muslim world?
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Woodrow
06-28-2007, 10:26 PM
Although Muslims have no trouble in living in a Democracy as long as the Democracy does not cause us to live a haram life, it is preferred we live in a sharia state.

To a Non-Muslim a sharia state does not seem to be very democratic as all laws are based upon the Qur'an. However, as a Muslim that poses no problem and is preferred as Islam is more than the Western concept of religion, it is our De'en. It governs our entire life no matter what form of government we are under.

Since a Sharia state can only exist in a state with a majority Muslim population, even as a democracy we would vote for sharia laws, so it is redundant. You can say that a Muslim country is a Democracy in which the majority of the people select Sharia law.
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Keltoi
06-29-2007, 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Although Muslims have no trouble in living in a Democracy as long as the Democracy does not cause us to live a haram life, it is preferred we live in a sharia state.

To a Non-Muslim a sharia state does not seem to be very democratic as all laws are based upon the Qur'an. However, as a Muslim that poses no problem and is preferred as Islam is more than the Western concept of religion, it is our De'en. It governs our entire life no matter what form of government we are under.

Since a Sharia state can only exist in a state with a majority Muslim population, even as a democracy we would vote for sharia laws, so it is redundant. You can say that a Muslim country is a Democracy in which the majority of the people select Sharia law.
Would you say the majority of Muslims would prefer to live in an imperfect Sharia state, as I think you would agree that no experiment with Sharia law has been just or successful, as opposed to a democratic style government? I know you are stating that Muslims would rather live in a true Sharia state, but since this doesn't exist, is democracy the "second best" choice?
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Woodrow
06-29-2007, 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Would you say the majority of Muslims would prefer to live in an imperfect Sharia state, as I think you would agree that no experiment with Sharia law has been just or successful, as opposed to a democratic style government? I know you are stating that Muslims would rather live in a true Sharia state, but since this doesn't exist, is democracy the "second best" choice?
Just from personal experience I find a fair democracy will allow a person a more Islamic life than some of the corrupted countries that call themselves Islamic.

In a fair democracy you can find pockets were devout Muslims can live undisturbed, even if the country itself is not Islamic.

Now as far as living in an Imperfect Sharia country, that would depend on to what degree the country is imperfect and if the people are really practicing Islam. If the imperfection is just that some of the countries leaders are doing haram things, but the people are living a true Islamic life I would prefer that type country.

all in all to me the important thing is that wherever I am I can practice Islam.
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MuhammadRizan
06-29-2007, 03:16 AM
Salam.

I have a question. Do Muslims see democracy as a good thing? Why are there so few democracies in the Muslim world?
this is my own opinion, of course.

Democracy is a at least good thing, but Muslim cannot used the same model in the west because there certain restriction in Islam, and we cannot put Islam underneath anything else.
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north_malaysian
06-29-2007, 04:02 AM
There are many democracy elements in Islam...
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August
06-29-2007, 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Since a Sharia state can only exist in a state with a majority Muslim population, even as a democracy we would vote for sharia laws, so it is redundant. You can say that a Muslim country is a Democracy in which the majority of the people select Sharia law.
So, if Muslims become a majority in the USA, the Constitution is out the window? I as a non-Muslim would only have the rights the Qur'an says I can have?
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Bittersteel
06-29-2007, 08:10 AM
I as a non-Muslim would only have the rights the Qur'an says I can have?
no dear,the Quran will not govern your life as you are a Non-Muslim.Sharia is for only Muslim people.you have to pay tax maybe.Heck if ever the US becomes predominantly Muslim.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/blewis.htm
^this might give you an idea.
democracy is not forbidden but liberal ones are.
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August
06-29-2007, 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by Aziz
no dear,the Quran will not govern your life as you are a Non-Muslim.Sharia is for only Muslim people.you have to pay tax maybe.
What right have you to impose an extra tax on me? Muslims don't pay a special tax when they're the minority.
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Bittersteel
06-29-2007, 08:26 AM
*shrugs* no idea totally about that.That's why I added,'maybe'.
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Duncan Ferguson
06-29-2007, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by Aziz
no dear,the Quran will not govern your life as you are a Non-Muslim.Sharia is for only Muslim people.you have to pay tax maybe.Heck if ever the US becomes predominantly Muslim.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/blewis.htm
^this might give you an idea.
democracy is not forbidden but liberal ones are.
Hi Aziz, when I refer to democracy I mean one of the following:
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. 2. A political or social unit that has such a government....4. Majority rule.
Could you please tell me what you mean by a "liberal" democracy?
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Woodrow
06-29-2007, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by August
What right have you to impose an extra tax on me? Muslims don't pay a special tax when they're the minority.
It actually would not be an extra tax because as a non-Muslim you would not have to pay the Zakat that a Muslim would have to pay. In most instances you would be paying less tax than a Muslim would.

As far as living in a Sharia country as a non-Muslim you would find little differences. Sharia law can not be applied to non-Muslims. The differences would be because the majority of the people would be Muslim, not because the laws would become Islamic. Muslim owned businesses are obligated to offer only halal products and sevices. So that is where you would see the differences, not because of the government.
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no1_outbider
06-29-2007, 03:02 PM
Like ???

Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
Salam.
this is my own opinion, of course.

Democracy is a at least good thing, but Muslim cannot used the same model in the west because there certain restriction in Islam, and we cannot put Islam underneath anything else.
In islam there is no such a thing as man made laws,and it is wrong to follow them.
How can democracy be better in any case,one doesnt have to be under democracy to practise islam,rather we are to take the rules set out by Allah
hence there is no need for democracy,

As for brother woodrow,i get your point about,how in many islamic ands it is
much of a struggle to practise islam,despite those are the lands that have sharaih runing in them;supposed to anyway,and that in countires with democracy we are better off practising islam partly,still it doesnt
justify it.
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wilberhum
06-29-2007, 04:50 PM
In islam there is no such a thing as man made laws,and it is wrong to follow them.
What did god say about doing 45 MPH in a school zone? :skeleton:
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Zman
06-29-2007, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by August
What right have you to impose an extra tax on me? Muslims don't pay a special tax when they're the minority.

We're getting taxed like crazy in the states. You can say that it's imposed on us, and we Must pay it...
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Idris
06-29-2007, 05:53 PM
Well here in the UK I don't see much of a democracy.... One fraud has gone this year and another has come in even though he has not been voted in has come in!!. But it’s a democracy right so I can vote for which liar I want.



Fewer than 4 out of every 10 registered voters actually voted!!!!
What’s the point voting if you take out one con for another con?

Democracy..... Gives you the choice.. know one ever asked choice of what?

Cons:raging:
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wilberhum
06-29-2007, 06:05 PM
Well here in the UK I don't see much of a democracy
In a democracy do you think voting should be mandatory?
Where is there a better form of democracy?
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Idris
06-29-2007, 06:47 PM
In a democracy do you think voting should be mandatory?
Where is there a better form of democracy?
Maybe you should read what I have written before coming up with foolish questions that are irrelevant.

However here is a question for you.

Why are people not voting!!
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wilberhum
06-29-2007, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
Maybe you should read what I have written before coming up with foolish questions that are irrelevant.

However here is a question for you.

Why are people not voting!!
Are you looking for a simple answer to why thousands of people don't do something? :skeleton: I think there are a thousand reasons at a minimum.
But I wouldn't know, I always vote. :D
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MTAFFI
06-29-2007, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Zman

We're getting taxed like crazy in the states. You can say that it's imposed on us, and we Must pay it...
based on your income, you are not taxed anymore than your peers, it isnt imposed, you could not pay it and then go to jail:D
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Bittersteel
06-29-2007, 07:00 PM
Could you please tell me what you mean by a "liberal" democracy?
democratic nation with liberal laws.that is a nation governed not by religious laws,but by secular/liberal ones.at least that's what I understand by it.
liberalism isn't allowed in Islam.
and real Islamic democracies won't be like western democracies.Woodrow seems to explain a lot better than I can though.
Islam allows criticism ,somewhat an independent judiciary,and other such things.It also restricts a lot of freedoms found in western nations.

say if an Islamic nation is democratic and the people are somewhat liberal ,they might choose a liberal to be their leader,who might not establish non-discretionary state laws punishing those who do not follow a dress code,or may only give jail sentence for kidnappers,smugglers(instead of execution),etc,without removing other discretionary laws like the law of execution for murderers.
But if they do remove the mandatory Sharia laws,the country will become a secular nation,being which isn't allowed.
hope I could have explained.

In islam there is no such a thing as man made laws,and it is wrong to follow them.
What did god say about doing 45 MPH in a school zone?
hehe,there are non-discretionary laws.Taazir laws I think they are called.Like acts such as drug smuggling is forbidden but there is no law written in the Quran or Hadith ,so the state must make some laws.same goes for not wearing the hijab or the veil and other forbidden acts.
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Cognescenti
06-29-2007, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Zman

We're getting taxed like crazy in the states. You can say that it's imposed on us, and we Must pay it...
Hey! We actually agree on something :D
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wilberhum
06-29-2007, 07:14 PM
AZIZ
real Islamic democracies
That is a contradiction of terms. An Islamic government by definition would be a theocracy.
so the state must make some laws
So they would be man made laws. :D
I quote:
In islam there is no such a thing as man made laws,and it is wrong to follow them.
So you can’t make laws about speeding.

Why does this seam like a circle jerk? :skeleton:
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Cognescenti
06-29-2007, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
Well here in the UK I don't see much of a democracy.... One fraud has gone this year and another has come in even though he has not been voted in has come in!!. But it’s a democracy right so I can vote for which liar I want.



Fewer than 4 out of every 10 registered voters actually voted!!!!
What’s the point voting if you take out one con for another con?

Democracy..... Gives you the choice.. know one ever asked choice of what?

Cons:raging:
Using voter turnout as a gage for the health of a system of government is dumb. The highest levels of voter turnout tend to be found in states where there has been long-standing oppression of political speech and democracy is newly offered to the people (like Haiti for eg when Baby Doc was ousted).

Sometimes voter apathy is just a reflection of content with the status quo.

Try running a national referendum in the UK over the imposition of Sharia law or a law to ban alcohol or an ordinance to require a burka for all women and see what kind of turnout you get. :D
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Bittersteel
06-29-2007, 07:47 PM
So you can’t make laws about speeding.
no we can.Outbider must have been referring to other laws,like the criminal and the laws governing social issues like marriage,divorce which can't be changed.oh to be specific the Hudood laws.
There are some rulings called Taazir rulings or laws,like I said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazir
sorry can't post an Islamic website,I hope some else can.
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wilberhum
06-29-2007, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Aziz
no we can.Outbider must have been referring to other laws,like the criminal and the laws governing social issues like marriage,divorce which can't be changed.oh to be specific the Hudood laws.
There are some rulings called Taazir rulings or laws,like I said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazir
sorry can't post an Islamic website,I hope some else can.
Seams like that Circle Jerk I was talking about.

Any way, it is off topic.

If we are talking about democracy, we are not talking about Islam.
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Bittersteel
06-29-2007, 07:57 PM
nope the thread starter has made a connection,IMO.Democracy in Muslim nations and how Muslims view it.so the Sharia does come into the discussion.
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Idris
06-30-2007, 10:22 AM
The highest levels of voter turnout tend to be found in states where there has been long-standing oppression of political speech and democracy is newly offered to the people (like Haiti for eg when Baby Doc was ousted).

Wow I didn’t know that… but why is the US spending so much time crusading around the world for democracy? Anyways we are talking about the United Kingdom or the United States of kingdom.. that don’t sound right, however then ever the UK is mention the US is link to it like a twin.

Try running a national referendum in the UK over the imposition of Sharia law or a law to ban alcohol or an ordinance to require a burka for all women and see what kind of turnout you get.
I don’t get it... is it a trick question?
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KAding
06-30-2007, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Idris
I don’t get it... is it a trick question?
His point is that turnout is always lower if the stakes are low enough. Hold a referendum in a non-Muslim country about implementing the Sharia and plenty of people will get very worried and go out and vote.
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MuhammadRizan
06-30-2007, 11:02 AM
Salam.

the Mouszlem can make new Law u guys!, but only for new matters with method that Prophet Muhammad taught, check it at my unpopular, silent like a graveyard thread "the Laws of God".lol.
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Zman
06-30-2007, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
, it isnt imposed, you could not pay it and then go to jail:D
Technically, it is imposed. At least with Jail, you'll have a roof over your head, and a meal.

Taxes are like economic sanctions. If you don't pay food taxes (for example), then you don't get to eat and slowly starve to death.

The same goes with other taxes. If you don't pay it, you don't get the service.

They're even taxing bottles of water. Two-thirds of planet's surface is covered by water, and they're still taxing it.

Taxes are on the increase, raises & standards of living are on the decrease.

There are 50 million Americans who have no health insurance.

They can find billions, trillions to fund 2 b/s wars (Afghanistan/Iraq), yet can't seem to find the money to rebuild New Orleans.

What a crock!
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