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Bittersteel
09-19-2005, 03:41 PM
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

found a good article on this refuting that the Prophet pbuh wasn't a pedophile.However it doesn't mention about Aisha's engagement to Mumin.

:sl:
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Bittersteel
09-19-2005, 04:59 PM
Following Posted in Why Islam FAQs of Islam section.

http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1525&PN=1


Question:
1. Why did the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) marry a 9 year old?

Answer:
1. When talking about Islam, there are many questions that are asked by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. One of the most common questions is about Prophet Muhammad’s (Peace be upon him) marriage to Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her). The reason for this question to arise is because of the age difference between the two. Prophet Muhammad was 54 years old and Aisha was 9 years old when the marriage was consummated. They were engaged when Aisha was 6 years old, and Prophet Muhammad waited until she reached the age of puberty to marry her.

Because of this difference in age, there has been some undeserved and unnecessary controversy about this marriage. People have also disgraced and humiliated Prophet Muhammad by calling him a pedophile, child molester, pervert, and many other degrading terms and phrases. During that time, once a man or woman reached puberty, they were eligible for marriage. Though it is not practiced in many societies today, it was practiced during those times in Arabia and the rest of the Middle East, and in Europe.

Though Prophet Muhammad has been maligned for this marriage, he had no history of committing illegal sexual acts, nor did he lust or fantasize about anyone. Besides this marriage, all his other marriages were to women 17 years and older; some of them were widows. Except for one, all of the marriages were to spread and pass on Islam by creating and strengthening relations (Prophet Muhammad married his first wife Khadijah after she proposed to him; this marriage took place before his Prophethood). This was also a reason why Prophet Muhammad had three of his daughters married to Uthman and Ali, who would become the last two caliphs of Islam.

The information below will give a clear and concise explanation of the legality of this relationship, thus hoping to clear any undeserved and unnecessary controversy created.

Brotherhood

In pre-Islamic times, people were accustomed to befriending one another to the extent that they behaved like brothers by blood. Therefore, they would not marry the daughters of the men they befriended and took as brothers. One of the female companions Khawlah bint Hakim organized the engagement between Aisha and Prophet Muhammad. When she went to Abu Bakr he said: “Could Aisha be lawful to him (i.e. Prophet Muhammad) while she was his brother’s daughter?” When Khawlah went back to Prophet Muhammad and told him what had happened, he said: “Tell him, you are my brother in Islam and your daughter is lawful to me.”

Thus, this example of Prophet Muhammad showed the people that Islamic brotherhood is not the same as blood brothers and it did away with the pre-Islamic practice of forbidding men to marry the daughters of their friend.

It should be noted that there are no accounts of anyone within their society disagreeing with the marriage, not even Aisha herself. It is only now in recent times that people are attacking this marriage.

In a tribal society, it was customary to seal treaties through marrying into tribes. Prophet Muhammad’s closest Companions later became the four caliphs who led Islam at the critical stage after his death. Two of them were the fathers of his wives Aisha (daughter of Abu Bakr) and Hafsa (daughter of `Umar); the other two married his daughters (`Uthman married Ruqayyah and Zaynab in succession, and `Ali married Fatimah). (i have to add a couple of sentences and some rephrasing of the paragraph)

Brief History of the Marriage Arrangement

At first, Prophet Muhammad was hesitant to marry again after the death of his first wife, Khadijah. He had dreams of the angel Gabriel carrying Aisha wrapped in sheets where Prophet Muhammad was told “This is your wife.” He said to himself that if this was a true dream from Allah, it will happen. These dreams were kept to himself thinking he was much older than her and that Abu Bakr, her father, had already given her hand in marriage to a man named Mut’im. With the memories that he had of Khadijah, he did not give any indication of getting married again. One should notice that since a proposal was already made, this indicated that Aisha was eligible for marriage.

It was not until his housekeeper, Khawlah bint Hakim, insisted that Prophet Muhammad get married because she thought it would be better for him to have a companion instead of being alone. Khawlah suggested that he could marry Aisha, or Sawdah bint Zam`ah, who was an old widow. The suggestion of Aisha confirmed the dream that Prophet Muhammad had of Aisha. He told Khawlah to arrange both marriages.

When Abu Bakr found out about Prophet Muhammad’s request to marry Aisha, he went to Mut’im to cancel his marriage with Aisha, and he amicably agreed.

Islam does not specify a minimum age when man and woman should be married, but both should be able to perform their marital duties. Prophet Muhammad was more than capable, and Aisha had the help of Sawdah. She guided and helped Aisha, until her death, as she was learning her role as a wife.

Pedophilia and Lust

Here is a definition:

"Pedophile: also spelled PEDOPHILIA, psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical pedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult." Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998

Though he is criticized for marrying Aisha, one can see that none of his marriages can lead to the conclusion that he is a pedophile; all of his marriages, with the exception of Aisha, were with women that were the age of 17 or older. If he was a pedophile, he would not have waited for three years to consummate the marriage. He would have taken her to his home immediately at the age of 6 without marriage. If Prophet Muhammad had a desire for women he would choose someone over 9 years old who had an ideal appearance; he would not wait for a person to turn a certain age to achieve beauty.

Prophet Muhammad’s Marriages

Prophet Muhammad did not have lust for any woman. Many women who were believers offered him themselves in marriage. He could have had any woman he wanted, but he married the woman he needed to marry to cement and create relations with other tribes to spread Islam.

Including the marriages of Aisha, Prophet Muhammad had married 12 people. Out of Prophet Muhammad’s 12 marriages, 11 were socio-political. He married first wife, Khadijah, when she proposed to him. From islamonline.net: “Most of his wives after the death of Khadijah were old, devoid of beauty, and previously married, except Aisha, who was the only young virgin. He married from other nations and religions; some were the daughters of his worst enemies, and his marriage to one woman won all her people into Islam. Regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he was a model example of equal justice and kindness to them all, and he would never discriminate among them.”

The Quraish

The Quraish was a tribe that was present during Prophet Muhammad’s time. This tribe did not believe in the word (Islam) Prophet Muhammad revealed to the people. The tribe found every opportunity to belittle, mock, and humiliate him at any open opportunity. This can be seen when reading about Prophet Muhammad. If they knew Prophet Muhammad was marrying a person who was not yet eligible to be married, they would have harassed him when they had the chance. Since they knew this marriage was legal, this proved two things: Marriages with young women who had reached puberty was normal and that it must have been practiced by other people, Muslim or not.

Aisha’s Intelligence

Aisha from a very young age was known to have a formidable memory. She was born into Islam, as her parents reverted before she was born, and therefore was taught from a very tender age by her pious father Abu Bakr. When she married Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) her education continued. She transmitted more than 2000 hadiths of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Az-Aubairi said, ‘if we compared Aisha’s knowledge to all women, Aisha would surpass them. Hisham ibn Urwa said. I have never seen anyone who could have knowledge of an ayah, an obligatory act, a sunnah act, poetry, history, lineage, judgment or medicine better than Aisha. I asked her, ‘what about medicine, how did you learn it aunt?’ She answered, ‘when I was sick, Prophet Muhammad prescribed (treatment) for me as did he when the people became ill. I also heard people prescribing treatment to each other. Thereby I memorized such prescriptions.’ So by her marriage to Prophet Muhammad, many prophetic traditions were passed down through generations to reach us today.

Abu Bakr, father of Aisha, companion of Prophet Muhammad

Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, was the successor of Prophet Muhammad, making him the first caliph. He was also the father of Aisha. The marriage between Prophet Muhammad and Aisha was also done to cement the relationship between Abu Bakr and Prophet Muhammad, to make it stronger: “Prophet Muhammad’s love for Aisha was a sign of his love for her father. On being asked about the dearest person to his heart, Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, mentioned Aisha. Then, on being asked about the dearest man to him and he, peace and blessings be upon him, mentioned her father, Abu Bakr.”

Middle Ages, Mary – Mother of Jesus Christ, the West

Marriage ceremonies were usually simple during this time where the Church was not that involved. Christian marriage ceremonies became part of a wedding when the Middle Ages ended. The marriages were arranged marriages where often the couple was very young. Sometimes girls were as young as 12 years of age, and the man could have been as old as 50.

Today in western societies such as America, there are several laws and freedoms. An example is that people who are 18 years or older are considered adults and if they have sexual relations with a person under the age of 18, they are categorized as “statutory rapists.” But at the same time, it is permissible to have sexual relations with people who are 12 and 13, 14 and 15, etc. Men have multiple girlfriends and women have multiple boyfriends. Extra-marital affairs are very common. These actions are so common that no one sees these actions as immoral. Actions like this are encouraged everyday. But if a marriage to someone that young is done, it is considered controversial, such as the marriage between Prophet Muhammad and Aisha. When assess this one can see which action is moral and which one is immoral.

Mary, according to Christian scholars, was around the age of 14 when she took the responsibility of bearing Jesus Christ. Mary was sent to study at the temple and enjoyed frequent visits from
holy angels. At the age of fourteen, a priest wanted to send Mary home to be married but she argued that she vowed virginity and couldn't have a husband. All Jewish women were to marry someone as an accomplishment of a natural duty. Joseph was chosen by the Holy Ghost
to marry the virgin.

After Mary and Joseph were wed, she was visited by the angel Gabriel and asked to bear the son of god. At first, Mary was frightened and curious as to how she was to keep her virginity if she was pregnant. If Mary had declined this proposal, God would have had to find another. Mary agreed to bear a child and was told that her child was to be born a boy named Jesus. The visitation of the angel and acceptance of Mary is known as the Annunciation.

If one would assess this, one would say that this event is controversial for two reasons. One is that how could a young girl get pregnant. If you assess this with today’s society, people would look at shame to a 14 year old pregnant female. (I need to rephrase and continue this paragraph)

Conclusion

The marriage between Prophet Muhammad and Aisha has received unnecessary exposure due to the age range between the two ages. Aisha had reached the age of maturity and began her life with Prophet Muhammad. During their time together, they gained a love and devotion that many people respect and admire. The information that was passed down to her from Prophet Muhammad has been vital to Islam and its followers. After Prophet Muhammad’s death, many of his hadith and sayings were passed down by Aisha to the followers of Islam. Prophet Muhammad married Aisha for the benefit of Islam and Humanity, under the command of Allah. (I have to edit and rephrase this)
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bin direnken
11-19-2005, 02:13 AM
This was a 9 year old girl. Please forgive my criticism, but pedophilia is wrong in any culture, at any time and with any young prepubescent that is not old enough to safely handle child birth. A 9 year old is not a sexually mature adult and it disgusts me to think that so many people are willing to make excuses for this example.

Be careful that you don't warp the minds of others who will intentionally molest other young girls after using the prophet as an example.
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Bittersteel
11-19-2005, 02:22 AM
it was something that was okay at that time ,but not now we know that.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-19-2005, 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by bin direnken
This was a 9 year old girl. Please forgive my criticism, but pedophilia is wrong in any culture, at any time and with any young prepubescent that is not old enough to safely handle child birth. A 9 year old is not a sexually mature adult and it disgusts me to think that so many people are willing to make excuses for this example.

Be careful that you don't warp the minds of others who will intentionally molest other young girls after using the prophet as an example.
:sl:
Your criticism is refuted in the following articles:
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...age_of_Aishah/

When the Prophet's life is examined in perspective, the charge of paedophilia falls flat on its face. Besides, children who suffered at the hands of pedophiles grow up with psychological problems that cause them difficultiues in integrating with society. But when it comes to A'isha rd we find that she was amongst those who narrated the most ahadith, she used to have public teaching circles and other companions would learn from her, she was outspoken and very bold. She went on to lead in a military role (at the battle of the Camel) later in her life and she only had the best things to say about the Prophet Muhammad saws.

:w:
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czgibson
11-19-2005, 05:22 PM
Greetings,

This is pretty shocking, and I don't see how the charge can be refuted. A paedophile is an adult who has sexual relations with a child. A 9 year old girl is a child. A 54 year old is an adult. I have no reason to think that the Prophet (pbuh) abused this young girl, but if he had sex with her, as I think is implied by "the marriage was consummated", he was a paedophile - there is simply no way around that.

Maybe different moral standards were in force in Arabia 1400 years ago; maybe a 9 year old was considered to be an adult; but all these rebuttals are simply making excuses - trying to deny something that seems blindingly obvious. The ancient Greeks had a similar attitude to adult males having sexual relations with young boys, so in modern parlance, they would be called homosexual paedophiles.

Peace
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Muezzin
11-19-2005, 05:44 PM
Here's the dictionary definition of 'paedophile'

paedophile
(US pedophile)

• noun a person who is sexually attracted to children.

— DERIVATIVES paedophilia noun paedophiliac adjective & noun.

— ORIGIN from Greek pais ‘child’.

Source
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Muezzin
11-19-2005, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by bin direnken
In order to have sex with a 9 year old girl, don't you have to be "sexually attracted" to her?
The word 'paedophile' though is usually used in the context of some sort of sexual predation.

Unfortunately, the prophet grew up as an orphan, jumping around from home to home, never really feeling the love or attachments to a real family. He grew up almost powerless as he watched others come and go out of his life. And this lack of family stability was a tragic strike to his emotional well being. Quite possibly he used the innocence and naivity of young girls as a crutch of such, in order to regain some stability, control and comfort in his life. After all, this young girl was someone who truly needed him, as all young girls need adults for guidance in their lives.
[my emphasis] That is your personal opinion. The logic is faulty; by it, all orphans might 'quite possibly' use the 'innocence and naviete of young girls' as a crutch.

As was the other virgin minor that the prophet married later on.
What about the 'older woman' he married, Fatima? Did this make him some sort of 'necrophiliac' or other freak specimen?

Maybe different moral standards were in force in Arabia 1400 years ago
I agree.

Be careful that you don't warp the minds of others who will intentionally molest other young girls after using the prophet as an example.
Forgive my bluntness but: What utter tosh.
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S_87
11-19-2005, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by bin direnken
In order to have sex with a 9 year old girl, don't you have to be "sexually attracted" to her?

Unfortunately, the prophet grew up as an orphan, jumping around from home to home, never really feeling the love or attachments to a real family. He grew up almost powerless as he watched others come and go out of his life. And this lack of family stability was a tragic strike to his emotional well being. Quite possibly he used the innocence and naivity of young girls as a crutch of such, in order to regain some stability, control and comfort in his life. After all, this young girl was someone who truly needed him, as all young girls need adults for guidance in their lives. As was the other virgin minor that the prophet married later on.

But that need for "dependence" doesn't excuse transgressing the boundaries of moral integrity by engaging the young child in sexual relations. A nine year old and a fifty three year old simply have nothing in common and putting the title of 'marriage' on their relationship still categories this whole scenario as pedophilia in any light. It was nothing but a dangerous health risk for little Aisha.
one q- your gender avator implies you to be muslim- is that a mistake or correct?
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czgibson
11-19-2005, 10:51 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Muezzin
What about the 'older woman' he married, Fatima? Did this make him some sort of 'necrophiliac' or other freak specimen?
That would be a 'gerontophile' - not necessarily a freak, though.

Peace
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
11-20-2005, 04:06 AM
Hello,
First of all, bin direnken, based on what you have written it seems like you are a non-muslim. I don't have any issues with you being a non-muslim, but if that is truly the case then you should not record "brother in Islam" as your gender as it is misleading, causing unnecessary confusion.

Secondly, I hope that people are reading the articles linked. It is pointless for me to link articles and then have to repeat everything because people are reading them. The charge of paedophilia was specifically examined in detail in the first article I linked. And the second article also examined the issue of marriage at puberty.

Originally Posted by czgibson
This is pretty shocking, and I don't see how the charge can be refuted. A paedophile is an adult who has sexual relations with a child. A 9 year old girl is a child. A 54 year old is an adult.
The charge of paedophilia was specifically examined in this article. I'm sure we can always re-defined any word so that it would fit any individual but that isn't going to change anything. The fact is that paedophilia is medically recognized as a psychosexual disorder with specific symptoms that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh simply doesn’t fit. He didn’t marry Aisha because of an attraction towards children, on the contrary, as the Islamonline teams notes:
As for the purpose of this marriage, it was purely for sociopolitical reason. The Prophet’s main concern was the future of Islam. He was interested in strengthening the Muslims by all bonds. This also explains the reason why he married the daughter of `Umar, his Second Successor. It was by his marriage to Juwayriyyah that he gained the support for Islam of the whole clan of Bani Al-Mustaliq and their allied tribes. It was through his marriage to Safiyyah that he neutralized a great section of the hostile Jews of Arabia. By accepting Mariya, the Copt from Egypt, as his wife, he formed a political alliance with a king of great magnitude. So his marriage to `Aisha could never be of anything save cementing his relation with Abu Bakr, `Aisha’s father. (SOURCE)
The entire reason why the Prophet Muhammad pbuh delayed the marriage until after migration to Madinah was to wait for Aisha to attain puberty. If he really was attracted to children he would not have waited three years to consummate the marriage. And we know medically that people mature at different rates, some people attain puberty earlier than others. So to classify a set age as the limit is naturally illogical. How can anyone claim that such-and-such an age is the boundary between child and adult while the age fluctuates per person? Marriage should be done after puberty, and in the hot arid climate in arab lands, women mature and attain puberty much earlier. This is clear from the fact that Aisha was already engaged to someone else before it was decided that she would marry the Prophet saws. The following link contains more information on this point:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_of_Aishah/#5

As Shaykh Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips points out in one of his lectures:
We have to look at what is the definition of a paedophile? Is it a grown man who marries young girls? No, he is a person gratifying himself with children, he is not considering marriage. It is just abuse, not marriage. But the reality is that Prophet Muhammad pbuh married Aisha. So it is not an issue of paedophilia. You may call it an issue of child marriage, or what you consider to be a child, but it is not an issue of paedophilia.

You as a non-muslim consider that Aisha was a child. She was nine years old when she came to live with the Prophet. What happened at the age of nine? She had her menses. According to Islamic law she is now considered a young women. And this is the natural dividing line between a child and a women. In the west if you look at the numbers at what age can men and women have consensual sex. In the UK it is 16 for heterosexual and for homosexual it is eighteen. You go to Ireland, it’s seventeen. You go to Germany, it’s sixteen. You go to France, it’s fifteen. Go to Italy, it’s fourteen. Go to Holland, it’s twelve. What in England is considered to be paedophilia in Holland is considered to be consensual sex. So their numbers are not based on any tangible dividing point. These numbers have just evolved or have been modified from cultural practices and norms. These figures were derived from a Newsweek article.

…So on one hand, the argument that she was a child falls because they don’t have an accurate point of deciding who’s a child and who’s not.(Bilal Phillips, Contemporary Issues Audio CD set, Part 5, Track 7-8.)
So to categories Prophet Muhammad pbuh with a label describing sexual predators with a psychosexual disorder is simply ludicrous. Not only does Prophet Muhammad pbuh not fit the description of paedophilia, but the historical fact that Aisha attained puberty before she moved in with the Prophet saws refutes the charge entirely. Look at the definition of paedophilia:
Pedophile: also spelled PAEDOPHILIA, psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical paedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult." (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1998.)
The following links should also contain useful information on the subject:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544940

I have no reason to think that the Prophet (pbuh) abused this young girl, but if he had sex with her, as I think is implied by "the marriage was consummated", he was a paedophile - there is simply no way around that.
You're using a two-step method of trying to classify the Prophet Muhammad pbuh as immoral. First by adjusting the definition of paedophilia so that it fits him, and then sliding him back to be categorised amongst paedophiles whom we all regard as immoral.

But the problem is that you haven't substantiated your claim that a nine year old who attains puberty is still considered a child. Nor have you demonstrated that the Prophet Muhammad saws suffered from a psychosexual disorder which caused him to be attracted to children. As historical records demonstrate, the marriages of the Prophet saws were for very clear and self-less purposes, always aimed at the welfare of the muslims collectively.

Regards
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- Qatada -
11-20-2005, 01:05 PM
masha Allaah! i really liked that response bro ansar.. i really like the way you responded to that because it really shows how culture plays an important role within society, and how the historical social idea comes into it. jazak Allaah khayr wa barak Allaahu feek.

wanted to give you repz but it wont let me yet lol.


wasalam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.
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Taalib-e-'Ilm
11-20-2005, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by bin direnken
This was a 9 year old girl. Please forgive my criticism, but pedophilia is wrong in any culture, at any time and with any young prepubescent that is not old enough to safely handle child birth. A 9 year old is not a sexually mature adult and it disgusts me to think that so many people are willing to make excuses for this example.

Be careful that you don't warp the minds of others who will intentionally molest other young girls after using the prophet as an example.

:sl:

"Bin Direnken" i've posted something an answer to this b4:


http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...tml#post103010

also up until the 18th or 19th century, the law in the US was that a person is allowed to marry a boy/girl from the age of 12. So if 1400 years back, if one can marry a 12 year old in the US not very long ago, then freind of mine this marriage took place 1400+++ years ago... and by the way there is a hadith i cnnt get a reference for it now-- which states that Aa'isha siddiqa'z marriage was a message from Allah and a guidance from Allah... so if the creator doesn't have a problem with the marriage why should the creation// infact the creator was the one who bought this marriage up so!!!!!:nervous: And also... priests like PATT ROBINSON A CHRISTIAN IS ONE OF THE ACCUSERS WHOO SAID ABT THE PAEDOPHILE THING... SOURCELESS AND A RIDICULOUS ACCUSATION AND HE DOESNT KNOW HIMSELF THAT IN HIS OWN RELIGION THEIR WAS A GOVERNMENT IN THE US IN THE 18 th or the 19th(im not sure but it was till recent) THAT MADE A LAW WHICH STATED THE MARRIAGE from the age of 10 or so is permissable correct me if i am wrong!!!
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Bittersteel
11-21-2005, 02:19 AM
I heard Jewish girls were married at the age of three.Correct me If I am wrong.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-21-2005, 04:05 AM
:sl:
The claim doesn't make sense in the manner you've stated so you'd have to provide a source for it.
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Abu Zakariya
11-21-2005, 08:30 AM
As I see it, there are two objections to the marriage.

1. He was a paedophile.

Well, no, he wasn't.
The diagnostic criteria for pedophilia according to American Psychiatric Association:

* Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent intense sexual urges and sexual arousing fantasies involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children.

* The person has acted on these urges, or is markedly distressed by them.

* The person is at least 16 years old and at least 5 years older than the child or children in A.

Source:
DSM-III-R Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed 3, revised, copyright American Psychiatric Association.
And Aisha wasnt prepubescent.

2. Well, maybe he wasn't a paedophile per se, but Aisha was young and could've been harmed by the whole thing.

History shows us that she loved the Prophet salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam and turned out to be a great scholar of islam. Nothing indicates that she was harmed in any way by the marriage, to the contrary...

Psychologists even mean that when the age difference in a marriage is fairly big, it is most likely something positive:

When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse.
Theodor H. Vandevelde, Ideal Marriage : Its Physiology and Technique, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1980, p. 243.
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bin direnken
11-21-2005, 12:07 PM
Please forgive me but this whole conversation is giving me the creeps. Here we are, grown men in the 21st century, making excuses for morally disgusting and dangerous behavior in any culture.

Barbarism marked most of ancient history, from human sacrifice that was acceptable in many pagan cultures, to barbaric colonolism to spread faith through religious wars. But being humans we have evolved and should treasure that ability that we have in ourselves. It's what separates us from animals if we allow ourselves the room for change and self discovery.

No, I am not a practicing Muslim, but I was born Muslim and profess to no other faith. I enjoy Islams simple approach to monotheistic faith but have a hard time swallowing some of the things that the prophet said and did. I was once told that Muslims in the east are 800 years behind the modern west and from the way this thread is heading, I'm beginning to believe it.

All of your definitions of pedophile fit the prophet, unfortunately, and no sidestepping and fancy talk is going to excuse what he did. If he wasn't a pedophile and was just looking to spread Islam by marriage, he would have married Aisha and refused sexual relations with a prepubescent. Nine year olds do not have any need for sex. I read one hadith that spoke of the prophet "setting down Aisha's dolls" when she sat on his lap.

Do you realize that in African countries and other third world countries where Islam is practiced, prepubescent brides become pregnant and during delivery develop fistula's (openings) which never heal. For the rest of their lives they drop urine and feces as they walk because the operation needed to correct their deformity is not available to them. They smell so bad that families often ban them to a backyard outhouse and their new husbands divorce them to live in solitude to live out the rest of their lives. These prepubescents are not sexually mature enough to deliver babies, thus they are not sexually mature enough to have sex with old men who should know better.

So please don't excuse something that we all know is wrong. If you look into your hearts I think you will all agree with me. Especially if you have children of your own.
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~Raindrop~
11-21-2005, 12:14 PM
salaams. theres a lengthy answer to this discussion at www.load-islam.com in the rebuttals section. hope that helps. wassalam.
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~Raindrop~
11-21-2005, 12:17 PM
salaams again. this discussion is really upsetting. how can we degrade the Prophet like that? please, brothers and sisters be fair.wassalam.
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bin direnken
11-21-2005, 12:17 PM
And Abu, may I also ask you a hypothetical question?

If someone gets away with something because no outward manifestations are apparently present, does that make it all right?

I'm sure there are many rape victims that go on to lead normal, happy lives.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are many rape victims that commit suicide.

Does it really depend on the outcome of the victim to judge the crime?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-21-2005, 02:57 PM
:sl: bin direnken,
Originally Posted by bin direnken
Please forgive me but this whole conversation is giving me the creeps. Here we are, grown men in the 21st century, making excuses for morally disgusting and dangerous behavior in any culture.
The above is agains nothing more than unsubstantiated claims against the Prophet saws which I just refuted. If you want to label it as 'morally disgusting' you will have to provide definitive criteria by which you can do such a thing. This is nothing but an evasion from responding to my points.

Barbarism marked most of ancient history, from human sacrifice that was acceptable in many pagan cultures, to barbaric colonolism to spread faith through religious wars. But being humans we have evolved and should treasure that ability that we have in ourselves. It's what separates us from animals if we allow ourselves the room for change and self discovery.
Perhaps you should read up on the logical fallacy known as a RED HERRING.

No, I am not a practicing Muslim, but I was born Muslim and profess to no other faith. I enjoy Islams simple approach to monotheistic faith but have a hard time swallowing some of the things that the prophet said and did.
Thank you for the clarification. Do you realize that failure to accept the Prophet as a Messenger of God nullifies your Islam?

I was once told that Muslims in the east are 800 years behind the modern west and from the way this thread is heading, I'm beginning to believe it.
Another red-herring. Currently the so-called 'modern' west is embracing homosexuality, a practice that was only socially acceptable thousands of years ago to the ancient greeks. Who really is backward?

All of your definitions of pedophile fit the prophet, unfortunately, and no sidestepping and fancy talk is going to excuse what he did.
It seems that either you did not read my post carefully or you had no comprehension whatsoever of what you read. The definition of a paedophile is one who seeks sexual gratification with prepubescent children. I already provided this definition is my previous posts. And the simple fact is that Aisha attained puberty. That was the whole purpose of delaying the consummation of the marriage until Madinah.

If he wasn't a pedophile and was just looking to spread Islam by marriage, he would have married Aisha and refused sexual relations with a prepubescent.
I already told you that she was not prepubescent. She was past puberty. And the Prophet married her for the same reason he married Umar b. Khattab's daughter. Abu Bakr and Umar rda were two of his closest companions who took leadership after him.

I read one hadith that spoke of the prophet "setting down Aisha's dolls" when she sat on his lap.
If you wish to discuss hadith you will have to cite them properly.

Do you realize that in African countries and other third world countries where Islam is practiced, prepubescent brides become pregnant and during delivery develop fistula's (openings) which never heal. For the rest of their lives they drop urine and feces as they walk because the operation needed to correct their deformity is not available to them. They smell so bad that families often ban them to a backyard outhouse and their new husbands divorce them to live in solitude to live out the rest of their lives.
This is another red-herring. Even if the above were true (and you've provided no reliable statistics to indicate that) it still would not prove anything about the Prophet's marriage because the Prophet married Aisha after she reached puberty. She had her menses before she moved in with the Prophet saws.

So please don't excuse something that we all know is wrong.
If you want to prove that something is wrong your going to have to do a much better job than posting red-herrings and making unsubstantiated claims.

Regards
Reply

Abu Zakariya
11-21-2005, 03:51 PM
bin direnken

I've already shown you that the definition of a paedephoile is someone sexually attracted to children that are prepubescent, which Aisha wasn't.

Also, she didn't have a problem with the marriage, to the contrary, she loved her husband, so it's pathetic that you try to talk in her name and try to make it seem as if you know better than her how she feelt.

And it isn't strange that she was happy with the marriage since it is well known among psychologists that a marriage where the age difference is big is often harmonious.
Reply

h1jabi_sista
11-21-2005, 03:57 PM
as salam alikum, Peace

in the name of God, Most merciful, Most kind.

Now, im not a scholar, nor do i know everything there is to know about islam.

But i do know that the prophet peace be upon him, was not a paedophile. He possessed no qualities of a paedophile. Majority of his marriages were to older women. His intentions were pure, his actions were pure, and he was pure!
I think that we have to remember, this was decreed by Allah subhanawatha allah.

People say history is like a different planet, well yes it is. It wasn't uncomman for girls' to be married after puberty. After all, this was the most beloved of all creation, the blessed prophet, the merciful prophet, the seal of the prophets.

Instead of thinking of this a 'morally disgusting', think back to the time the prophet peace be upon him, was alive. He came with miracles, blessing, teachings.He was kind, gentle and generous. He form this empire, built on faith. It was an honour for ANY girl to be married to him. This was the last of all the prophets!!!

a lack of love and understanding for the prophet peace be upon him, leads to ignorance. We must try not to go there. This marriage had no negative result, Only good came from it. Allah wanted this to happen, and it did!

:sunny:

allah knows best

wa alikum as salaam
Reply

Ameeratul Layl
11-21-2005, 03:59 PM
:sl:

I hope ppl arent saying that sayidna muhammad :arabic5: is a paedophile.:mad:

Allah ma3akum
Reply

~Raindrop~
11-21-2005, 04:07 PM
salaam.
SUM1 was, but i think bro.Ansar put him right. i hate it when people slander the Prophets Alayhimus-Salaam. it makes me shiver. these were a set of people who were sent for the Guidance of mankind. i dont understand how any1 can stand to slander them. wassalam.
Reply

Ameeratul Layl
11-21-2005, 04:11 PM
:sl:

well, that sum1 ought to get his/her facts right.:mad:
Sayidna muhammad :arabic5: was not a........He was a truely loving person. He would never have done such a....horrid thing to any child.


If u give the Prophet of Allah :arabic5: a bad name...u are giving the rest of the Muslims a bad name and that INCLUDES me....so, I suggest....u watch ur mouth!!!!

Peace!
Reply

libyanhero
11-21-2005, 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by bin direnken
In order to have sex with a 9 year old girl, don't you have to be "sexually attracted" to her?

Unfortunately, the prophet grew up as an orphan, jumping around from home to home, never really feeling the love or attachments to a real family. He grew up almost powerless as he watched others come and go out of his life. And this lack of family stability was a tragic strike to his emotional well being. Quite possibly he used the innocence and naivity of young girls as a crutch of such, in order to regain some stability, control and comfort in his life. After all, this young girl was someone who truly needed him, as all young girls need adults for guidance in their lives. As was the other virgin minor that the prophet married later on.

But that need for "dependence" doesn't excuse transgressing the boundaries of moral integrity by engaging the young child in sexual relations. A nine year old and a fifty three year old simply have nothing in common and putting the title of 'marriage' on their relationship still categories this whole scenario as pedophilia in any light. It was nothing but a dangerous health risk for little Aisha.
Istighfarillah brother don't be brainwashed,

I am sure the prophet wasn't a sex freak, I think he was more experienced than anyone of you and I and I can tell you he isn't depressed about it and the prophet probably had his wisdom of marrying the 9 year old girl and a 9 year old girl wouldnt be given to the man if he wasn't well trusted by her father.

Life now is depressing for a virgin yet years ago it was a normal thing to be a virgin but today you look around and you see the temptations and perceptions are different now from decades ago.

Why is sex the first thing that pops in a man's mind before even sex there is sexual stimulation of the mind with through the sweet talking, romance and company of the married couple together is satisfying enough. Who knows when the prophet first had sex with Aishah (RA) and don't make assumptions, you don't gotta marry someone first night and get her laid that shows how horny a dog you are and it shows that you probably weren't virgin in the first place. Come on, you wait or your life until you get married say 22 or 25 years and you can't wait the first night without nailing your wife, oh maybe your answer is like I gotta breathe again man, breathe what. I don't think a 9 year old wants sex anyway and they say she consummated marriage a 9 but she really married at 13 or 14 don't question the prophet he is wiser than you so and even after Aishah grew and she related the hadiths and she never complained of the prophet taking her at 9 or 13.
Reply

czgibson
11-21-2005, 07:05 PM
Greetings,

I'm going to leave the discussion of Aisha to others, because I've no interest in attacking the Prophet (pbuh) on this basis and upsetting people. I've made my point and I still find this situation disturbing; I've said all I want to say on the matter.

Ansar, you mentioned Islamic law as saying that after a girl has had her menses she is considered to be a young woman. Is that law current? I know different countries have different laws, but what I'm getting at is this: could a Muslim man have sex with a nine-year old girl today and use that law to justify himself?

Peace
Reply

bin direnken
11-21-2005, 08:15 PM
Oh I'm sorry for not citing my sources. As a physicians assistant I speak from a scientific standpoint almost daily, and sometimes I forget that others do not have this kind of foundation to build upon.

When I spoke of fistulas, you may verify these early childbirth dangers on the following webpage:

www.endfistula.org

And as for puberty occurring with a young girls first menses, there are many complex factors that go into influencing sexual maturity. It cannot be solely defined by physical means, such as at the onset of menses, rather, it should be seen as the combination of physical and psychological changes, that together signify the emergence into adulthood.

There is also condition called central precocious puberty and can affect young girls as young as four. These girls develop genital hair, budding breasts, active sweat glands and active menstrual cycles. In no way should they be considered sexually mature at this young age. In my professional opinion, the same can be said for menstruating nine year olds. If you want to verify this, please google the condition. There are a plethora of active links to help you in your search.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-21-2005, 08:25 PM
Salaam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

i agree with most of the brothers and sisters. if you look into the depth of it, this was happening all around the world at that time. in places in europe men didn't treat women with any respect, and they would marry anyone they wanted, no matter what the age of the girl, maybe even before she was an adolescent?

what about in india at that time when men married girls before they were even born? yeh that did happen and it still does happen nowadays in the hindu society. the parents have already prepared who the child is going to get married to when the child is only a baby.

in arabia, other men got married to younger girls - so if someone was living in a society where that happend, why is it so wrong to marry someone of a young age within that society too?


cultural customs happen all around the world yet no-one questions them.. but why is this so shocking just because one man did the same? just because hes a Prophet, does it not give him the right to marry someone of a younger age, follow the culture of his country? he (peace be upon him) wore the same clothes as the arabs, ate the same food as the arabs, so why cant he (peace be upon him) get married the same way the arabs did? didn't he (peace be upon him) treat his wife with respect? treat her like any other wife?

dont peadophiles go for kids because they feel that they cant have a proper relationship with an adult? then how come our beloved Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam got married earlier to hadhrat Khadija (r.a)?


its common sense and was practiced all around the world at that time so if he (peace be upon him) did not get married, it would be weird and as times change, actions change/ cultures change. so the same way you guys think it was weird that our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) got married to someone younger, the same way the people of that time would think that it was weird that our beloved Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam never got married to someone younger.

not all humans can be pleased, and no matter how hard you try to please people - not everyone will agree with you. so if you believe that Allaah subhanahu wa ta'aala really exists, you would know that it is written in the qadr (destiny) for our beloved Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam to get married to hadhrat Aa'isha (r.a).


Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect. (qur'an 33:56)



Our beloved Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam said: "None of you believes until he loves me more than he loves himself." (sahih Bukhari - authentic)


so if you really love our beloved Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam, you should be proud that he has brought us islam, because without it.. verily we would be astray...

Allaah u a'lam
(Allaah subhanahu wa ta'aala knows best.)


wasalam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
11-21-2005, 09:38 PM
Hello,
Originally Posted by czgibson
Ansar, you mentioned Islamic law as saying that after a girl has had her menses she is considered to be a young woman. Is that law current?
Islamic law indeed places physical changes as the limit for marriage and once someone is past puberty they are considered a young man or a young woman. This concept is medically accurate in comparison to setting artificial limits. As far as marriage is cocnerned, then in previous times, even in the west, it was typical for marriage to occur early as children needed to take an active part in helping out around the house, farm, etc. It was not like today where people usually wait until after completeting their education.
I know different countries have different laws, but what I'm getting at is this: could a Muslim man have sex with a nine-year old girl today and use that law to justify himself?
As I repeatedly emphasized this is not about just 'sex' it is about marriage. Marriage is a life-long commitment that needs approval from both partners. See here for the conditions of marriage:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503546572

Customs or 'urf plays a role as well. Depending on the society, in some cases marriage is done earlier than in others. But the bottom line is that it is done after puberty with the consent of both parties.
I've made my point and I still find this situation disturbing
What is disturbing about a girl being married after puberty by consent and being happy with her marriage as well? Just because today people get married later, why are historical customs 'disturbing'? Do you have any medical evidence to support your view?

And don't feel that you have to withdraw from the discussion at the risk of offending others. It is better to discuss these issues and research them properly, rather than let them fester within and create more misunderstandings. I have always been an advocate of evidence-based and respectful dialogue.

bin direnken,
Oh I'm sorry for not citing my sources. As a physicians assistant I speak from a scientific standpoint almost daily, and sometimes I forget that others do not have this kind of foundation to build upon.
That's not what I'm criticising you for. I am criticising you for building your claims on fallacious arguments such as red-herrings and strawmen and blatantly ignoring the evidence that has already been presented.

Let's deal with the claim of central precocious puberty first.
There is also condition called central precocious puberty and can affect young girls as young as four. These girls develop genital hair, budding breasts, active sweat glands and active menstrual cycles. In no way should they be considered sexually mature at this young age. In my professional opinion, the same can be said for menstruating nine year olds. If you want to verify this, please google the condition. There are a plethora of active links to help you in your search.
For someone who should be educated on this issue, you shall a remarkable lack of understanding. As per the Medline plus Medical Encyclopedia:
Precocious puberty is premature development of body characteristics that normally occur during puberty. (Puberty is the period in life when the body changes rapidly and develops reproductive capability). Puberty normally occurs between 13 and 15 years old in boys, and between 9 and 16 years old in girls.

In girls, precocious puberty is when any of the following develop before 8 years of age:
Breasts
Armpit or pubic hair
Mature external genitalia
First menstruation
(SOURCE, emphasis added)
The Nemours Foundation concurrs with the description as well:
Precocious puberty - the onset of signs of puberty before age 7 or 8 in girls and age 9 in boys - can be physically and emotionally difficult for children and can sometimes be the sign of an underlying health problem. (SOURCE)
So our Medical references confirm that it is normal for girls to attain puberty at the age of nine, and it is only abnormal if it occurs before the age of 7/8. As we know from the hadith, Aisha was certainly passed the age of nine!

Furthermore, the medical encyclopedia also notes:
Children of both sexes with early sexual development are more likely to have psycho-social problems. Children and adolescents generally want to be the same as their peers, and early sexual development can make them appear "different". This can result in self-esteem problems, depression, acting out at school and home, and alcohol and illegal substance abuse.(SOURCE)
Now we also know that Aisha rd did not fit these characteristics in the slightest way possible. She was then and remained since a confident, in fact very bold young women who took an active part in her community later assuming the role of leadership on a military level as well as an educational level.

And the major part that demonstrates that you didn't do your homework is the fact that this is an abnormality. But we have already established that the marriage was absolutely normal then. In fact Aisha was engaged to someone else before the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Please read the following links as you still have not addressed any of the points that were previously mentioned, and you continue to use red-herrings as your primary method of argumentation:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_of_Aishah/#6
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_of_Aishah/#8

When I spoke of fistulas, you may verify these early childbirth dangers on the following webpage:
www.endfistula.org
Did you even read what I wrote in response?! I said it was a red-herring. In other words fistulas have nothing to do with the marriage of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. This is all related to prepubescent brides and the Prophet saws married Aisha rd after puberty!

Bin direnken, I highly suggest that you review the material posted here and provide evidence to support your conclusions about the Prophet's marriage as opposed to building your arguments on conjecture.

Regards
Reply

bin direnken
11-21-2005, 10:03 PM
Oh my, Ansar, please review your information once again and open your mind to my words.

My point for bringing up precocious puberty was to emphasize that even children of four years of age have reached menses. You were associating females menstrual cycles with puberty and sexual readiness. And this is simply not the case as illustrated by the before mentioned. Sexual activity should only occur after a child has passed all of the 'milestones' of adulthood, and to do so prematurely is child endangerment. You can argue this point until you are blue in the face but the fact remains that it is not "normal" for a child to have sex. Period. (no pun intended :) And technically, because of this fact, Aisha was still a child and still socially considered a prepubescent.

If you review the material posted on the fistula webpage, you will see that this condition can occur in teens as well. Until a body is ready mature enough to handle all the demands that pregnancy brings, sexual intercourse should be avoided and frowned upon.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
11-21-2005, 11:49 PM
Again bin direnken, you failed to provide any evidence to support your claims.

Not only did you make a blunder by bringing up precocious puberty which doesn't apply to Aisha since she was past 9 years of age, but you failed to respond to the major points mentioned. The following two points have been established:

- it is normal for a girl to achieve puberty anywhere between nine and sixteen years of age (as per the medical references quoted previously)
- Aisha rd consummated her marriage after the age of nine
->therefore there is no reason to believe that Aisha was prepubescent, especially since many of the physical milestones of puberty such as menses, were recorded as happening before consummation of the marriage

For your case aginst the Prophet's marriage you would have to refute these points. If you cannot refute these points then your case is destroyed. So, no more evasions, no more red-herrings. I challenge you to respond to these points.

Originally Posted by bin direnken
My point for bringing up precocious puberty was to emphasize that even children of four years of age have reached menses.
But the point is erroneous because precocious puberty is a specific condition that Aisha did not have, since she was past the age of nine. You ahve only demonstarted to us that you have no understanding of what you're talking abotu since precocious puberty only applies before the age of eight!!
You were associating females menstrual cycles with puberty and sexual readiness. And this is simply not the case as illustrated by the before mentioned.
As I pointed out before Aisha married the Prophet after the age of nine after the physical changes indicating puberty, one of which was her menses. Can you prove to me that the other changes did not occur? Your argument is the fallacy known as appeal to probability. Your argument can be expressed as follows:
1-it is possible that she did not go through puberty completely at the age of nine and only went through menses
2-therefore she did not go through puberty completely at the age of nine and only went through menses
Quite clearly 1 does not necessitate 2. So as I already demonstrated that it is normal for a girl to go through puberty at the age of nine (as per the medical references) especially in hot climates, then there is no reason to believe that she did not go through puberty.

Sexual activity should only occur after a child has passed all of the 'milestones' of adulthood, and to do so prematurely is child endangerment.
Can you prove to me that Aisha did not pass all the milestones of adulthood? You seem to have a difficult time comprehending the clear quote from the encyclopedia which demonstartes that it is perfectly normal for a girl to go through puberty at the age of nine.

And technically, because of this fact, Aisha was still a child and still socially considered a prepubescent.
Which fact? You've been arguing on the basis of fallacies, biased opinions and remote possibilites all along! Prove to me that Aisha was prepubescent.

If you review the material posted on the fistula webpage, you will see that this condition can occur in teens as well.
Then if fistulas can occur in post-pubescent women as well what does it prove?! Anyone in the world could be alleged to have had a fistula! Provide evidence.

Until a body is ready mature enough to handle all the demands that pregnancy brings, sexual intercourse should be avoided and frowned upon.
Prove that Aisha was not mature enough to handle all the demnads that pregancy brings. I have already provided the references that show that it is perfectly normal for a nine-year old girl to attain puberty. Refute the medical references I have provided.

Peace
Reply

bin direnken
11-22-2005, 01:09 AM
I am not here to teach simple concepts as I do with my patients, I am here to lend an understanding to a dangerous practice that people like you keep endorsing. I also am not a student in which I feel required to further demonstrate simple concepts that are elementary to even undergraduates. Let me assure you that I am fully qualified to pass judgment, based on the simple facts presented, from my studies, as well as from my years of practical experience. You are not facing a child.

Vesicovaginal fistulas happen for a reason. They are medically defined as an abnormal passage from an internal organ to the outside body surface and do not spontaneously occur in healthy individuals. Something is required to tear the opening and in this case it's too small of a passage that ruptures the upper reaches of the vagina during childbirth. According to a World Health Organization study conducted over 16 years ago, over two million women were living with obstetric fistulas. And most of these women were living in sub-Saharan Africa where early marriage and child pregnancy are the culprits of shame. I am failing to understand why this obvious evidence is so elusive to you but I really wish that you would put as much effort into women's studies and the safety of an entire gender as you do into prepubescent sex validation. Try Amnesty International if you would like specifics.

While it is true that menses is the textbook start of puberty, you cannot forget the other facets that have to be considered when speaking of a childs well being. Some young girls have one period and then it stops for a year or so. And others do not have "regular" menstrual cycles for quite a while. There are natural stages in this process such as prepuberty, where sexual development begins and lasts for about two years or so. And then there is postpuberty in which a person is first able to create offspring. What this boils down to is this. Just because a young girl is able to conceive does not mean that it is safe for her to carry an infant to term. And the elderly husbands/fathers who offer their consent to these crimes should really be more concerned about the safety and well being of their loved ones. A lack of education is mostly to blame.

In our day and age I think it is a waste of time to argue the point that fifty-some year old men should not be having sex with nine year old girls. That's why in civilized countries we have laws in place to protect those who need protecting. So I will leave this argument for more intellectually stimulating grounds. Thanks for your time and God help your daughters.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
11-22-2005, 04:01 AM
Hello bin diorenken,
I gave you a very simple and basic challenge and that was to respond to the two points I gave.
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
- it is normal for a girl to achieve puberty anywhere between nine and sixteen years of age (as per the medical references quoted previously)
- Aisha rd consummated her marriage after the age of nine
->therefore there is no reason to believe that Aisha was prepubescent, especially since many of the physical milestones of puberty such as menses, were recorded as happening before consummation of the marriage
Unfortunately, it seems that either you didn't understand the challenge, or you have stubbornly refused to answer it. Again and again I have exposed the fallacious arguments you emplyed, yet you persist in completely ignoring the points made and bringing up more irrelevant issues. And simply feigning knowledge or authority is not going to work either. You need to provide accurate and relevant evidence to support your claims. So the following is not an example of relevant evidence:
Originally Posted by bin direnken
Vesicovaginal fistulas happen for a reason. They are medically defined as an abnormal passage from an internal organ to the outside body surface and do not spontaneously occur in healthy individuals. Something is required to tear the opening and in this case it's too small of a passage that ruptures the upper reaches of the vagina during childbirth. According to a World Health Organization study conducted over 16 years ago, over two million women were living with obstetric fistulas. And most of these women were living in sub-Saharan Africa where early marriage and child pregnancy are the culprits of shame.
Fistulas have absolutely no relevance here. As I pointed out in my very first post on the issue, what causes a fistula or who gets a fistula has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Aisha was past puberty when she married the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. You need to provide evidence that she had not reached puberty at that age even though medical texts affirm that is perfectly normal for such a thing to occur.
I am failing to understand why this obvious evidence is so elusive to you but I really wish that you would put as much effort into women's studies and the safety of an entire gender as you do into prepubescent sex validation. Try Amnesty International if you would like specifics.
I already demonstrated that Aisha was post-pubescent. Thus, we have another example of a strawman fallacy.

While it is true that menses is the textbook start of puberty, you cannot forget the other facets that have to be considered when speaking of a childs well being. Some young girls have one period and then it stops for a year or so. And others do not have "regular" menstrual cycles for quite a while. There are natural stages in this process such as prepuberty, where sexual development begins and lasts for about two years or so. And then there is postpuberty in which a person is first able to create offspring.
Again you refuse to accept the fact that all medical encyclopedias have classified attaining puberty at the age of nine as NORMAL. Hence, there is no reason for us to believe that Aisha attained puberty any later.

I am offering you a final opportunity - either refute the following or admit your incapability to do so:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
- it is normal for a girl to achieve puberty anywhere between nine and sixteen years of age (as per the medical references quoted previously)
- Aisha rd consummated her marriage after the age of nine
->therefore there is no reason to believe that Aisha was prepubescent, especially since many of the physical milestones of puberty such as menses, were recorded as happening before consummation of the marriage
No more red-herrings about fistulas, etc. Prove that Aisha could not have been post-pubescent when she consummated her marriage with the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. No more off-topic rants will be tolerated; they will be deleted.
Reply

Abu Zakariya
11-22-2005, 02:33 PM
And technically, because of this fact, Aisha was still a child and still socially considered a prepubescent.

Are these your arguments?

* She was pubescent, but kind of "socially prepubescent" although socially, she was expected to marry.
* Well, in some parts of the world some people suffer from fistula.

The first argument is pathetic and the second one is irrelevant.
Reply

Ameeratul Layl
11-22-2005, 02:34 PM
:sl:
nice one brother. I like the ending to ur post.

Allah ma3ak
Reply

Umu 'Isa
11-25-2005, 02:38 PM
Astaghfirullah bin direnken!! why are you questioning this!
Allahu Alam. If Allah subhana wa t'ala excepted this then shouldn't we all.
After all, Allah is the creator and Allah has all the knowledge of the world a lot more than us. I would not bad mouth the Prophet sallahu alayhi wasalam, Astaghfirullah!!
Reply

h1jabi_sista
11-25-2005, 05:37 PM
as salam alaikum,
sista i totally agree, this was a command from allah subhana watha allah. who are we to question His intelligence? allah is the most knowledgble. That is, knowledge of the past, present and future. asthagirullah indeed!

:w:
Reply

- Qatada -
11-25-2005, 06:05 PM
Do you not know that Allah knows what is in the heaven and the earth? Surely this is in a book; surely this is easy to Allah. (22:70)


if Allaah subhanahu wa ta'aala has decreed something, we have to believe it no matter what it is. if one is rejecting the qadr (fate), then they are not believing what is mentioned in the qur'an.

our beloved Prophet Muhammad sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam got married to hadhrat Aa'isha (r.a) and this was written in the qadr (fate) of our beloved Prophet Muhammad sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam, this has happened and therefore it is obligatory for you to believe it and to accept the idea that our beloved Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam did get married to hadhrat Aa'isha r.a even if it was at a young age.


O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive. (49:02)


if Allaah subhanahu wa ta'aala forbade the sahabah from raising their voices against our beloved Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam, then how can you insult our beloved Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam repeatedly - isn't this disobeying Allaah subhanahu wa ta'aala? how can you question what Allaah subhanahu wa ta'aala has decreed already? if your really going to ask why all this happened then at least do it with respect.


Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much. (33:21)


remember, if one does not accept what Allaah subhanahu has ordained, then what do you think thats leading to?


It was reported that a man who was caught stealing was brought to 'Umar bin Al-Khattaab, may Allaah be pleased with him, who ordered that this man’s hand be cut off. The man said: “Wait, O leader of the believers! I only stole because this was in the Qadr of Allaah." 'Umar, may Allaah be pleased with him, replied “And we are amputating your hand because it is in the Qadr of Allaah.”


Allaah u a'lam. Allaah subhanahu wa ta'aala knows best.



wa Salaam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.
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Umu 'Isa
11-26-2005, 02:51 AM
jazakhAllah khair brother nicely said
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Taalib-e-'Ilm
11-27-2005, 09:47 PM
:sl:

Brother Bin Dereken, i must say that after each post of yours regarding this topic, u shuld read the first kalima, coz i think to accuse the prophet of somehting which he didn't do is called slandering, ur out of Islam mate if u have any doubts abt the prophet. Besides, many ppl on the forum have said and i'll tell u again, that our beloved prophet saw in his dreams that Angel Jibraieel comes down and shows the prophet this women (Aisha) and tells the prophet that he should marry this women.
Notice that jibra'il only comes through the will of Allah, so IF ALLAH DIDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THIS MARRIAGE, THAN Y SHULD WE, ALLAH KNOWS MORE THAN US!!!!!
:mad:
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sapphire
11-27-2005, 10:30 PM
yup your rite bro.....i think your up for a loosing battle Bin Dereken...may Allah help us all...and guide thoes who need guidance and help the rest to stay on the straight path...Ameen....
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bin direnken
12-12-2005, 12:08 AM
I'm not going to argue with someone who is obviously intellectually "challenged" when speaking medically, but feel it my obligation to correct your "fact" that "average" girls reach puberty by the first day of their ninth birthday. In reality, the "average" age of a young girls first menses is between the ages of twelve and fourteen, and not post second grade and mid-Barbies.

Not that early menses cannot happen earlier, I am just using this as an "average" for the purposes described on this message board. And although early menses is one aspect of quantifying the passing into maturity, the consensus amongst properly trained physicians, (and not website wannabe's) is that, physiologically, girls do not complete puberty until the "average" age of eighteen.

Hence, it's in the best interests of societies elders (who do know better) to make the age of eighteen a hallmark of sorts when discussing marriage and sexual readiness for the safety of our youth.

At least that is the basis for human behavior in civilized societies.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-12-2005, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by bin direnken
I'm not going to argue with someone who is obviously intellectually "challenged" when speaking medically
Your insults only expose your own insecurity. As for medical knowledge, I have been the one quoting from medical encyclopedias and exposing your blunders and inaccurate statements.

but feel it my obligation to correct your "fact" that "average" girls reach puberty by the first day of their ninth birthday.
Who said this?! YOU DID! So because you are unable to refute my words you have to put your words in my mouth and then respond to them? This is nonsense. You have clearly failed to respond to the challenge I provided:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Prove that Aisha could not have been post-pubescent when she consummated her marriage with the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. No more off-topic rants will be tolerated; they will be deleted.
In reality, the "average" age of a young girls first menses is between the ages of twelve and fourteen, and not post second grade and mid-Barbies.
I think I will take the words of the medical encyclopedia over yours when it says:
Puberty normally occurs between 13 and 15 years old in boys, and between 9 and 16 years old in girls.
Hence, there is no reason why Aisha could not have attained puberty before she consummated her marriage with the Prophet.

Not that early menses cannot happen earlier, I am just using this as an "average" for the purposes described on this message board. And although early menses is one aspect of quantifying the passing into maturity, the consensus amongst properly trained physicians, (and not website wannabe's) is that, physiologically, girls do not complete puberty until the "average" age of eighteen.
Even if that was true (which it isn't), it still doesn't refute my point, because we're talking about Aisha rd, not other girls. Can you prove to me that Aisha did not reach puberty until eighteen? Of course not!

Besides, I already refuted your claim with authentic medical references. According to Howard and Leppert's Primary Care for Women, the average age of completion of puberty for girls in the west is 12-15, not 18 like you falsely claimed. Also, an assesment of pubertal development in egyptian girls noted that the variety of ages at which puberty is achieved acrossd the world "can be attributed to various genetic, racial, geographical, nutritional, and secular trend factors" (J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;18(6):577-84.). Thus, in the hot desert climate of Arabia it was very common for girls to be married so early. Proof? Aisha was already engaged to someone else before she married the Prophet Muhammad pbuh!

Hence, it's in the best interests of societies elders (who do know better) to make the age of eighteen a hallmark of sorts when discussing marriage and sexual readiness for the safety of our youth.
The vast majority of western countries do not even meet this limit! In the UK, England and Wales have set the age of consent at sixteen. Here are the US states that have the age of consent at sixteen:
Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, Alabama
And in New Hampshire, females may be married at the age of 13 if they have parental consent.

And countries like Japan, South Korea and Spain have the age at 13, while Mexico and the province of Quebec in Canada have said 12!

And even if we sent the age at 18, there still may be females who are not mature enough at this age. The reality is that the limit varies from individual to individual, and it must be determined according tot he symptoms of puberty.

At least that is the basis for human behavior in civilized societies.
Perhaps the US and UK are not civilized?

Lastly, the issue under discussion here is not what the age of marriage should be set to, for indeed, for practical purposes it is easiest for countries to set an age limit. But the issue under discussion here is the marriage of Prophet Muhammad pbuh to Aisha rd, and whether that marriage was immoral or inappropriate. As I have clearly demonstrated from authentic sources, the answer is a resounding "NO!".

Regards
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bin direnken
12-13-2005, 01:22 AM
Many girls are engaged before they even leave their mothers womb in some backwards countries so I do not understand your angle. If Aisha was engaged to someone else before the prophet, it means nothing.

And Ansar, I could certainly spend time acquiring and quoting the facts directly from "medical encyclopedia's" as you have suggested but I do not see the point in that. This may surprise you, but science is not a practice that is based on "facts", it is based on education, intuition and experience. As a board certified physicians assistant, I choose to write based on my own professional knowledge and work history. That is what people pay me for, Sir.

Salaam
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-13-2005, 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by bin direnken
Many girls are engaged before they even leave their mothers womb in some backwards countries so I do not understand your angle.
Red-herring. This has nothing to do with the topic.
If Aisha was engaged to someone else before the prophet, it means nothing.
Go back and read what I said in context. You're very good at revealing how little of my post you understood.

And Ansar, I could certainly spend time acquiring and quoting the facts directly from "medical encyclopedia's" as you have suggested but I do not see the point in that.
You seem to see the point in very little, considering how most of your posts in this thread have been pointless.
This may surprise you, but science is not a practice that is based on "facts", it is based on education, intuition and experience.
Science is not a practice. PERIOD. Please research the definition of science before attempting to pose as an authority on it.
As a board certified physicians assistant, I choose to write based on my own professional knowledge and work history. That is what people pay me for, Sir.
Feigning knowledge doesn't work in a debate. Your arguments are fallacious. Refute my points with evidence, don't just say, "Trust me, i know what I'm talking about"!

Regards
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bin direnken
12-13-2005, 01:55 AM
Sorry, I am unable to respond to your private message until I've posted 50 posts. So I"m pasting my response to you below.

I am using "intelligence" Ansar. Only a fool would claim to know everything simply because he saw it in print. Even smart humans are fallible and medical journals are constantly being revised.

Ansar, knowledge doesn't only come from books. So be wise and use your own God given judgment when evaluating the written word.

I was just thinking and had to come back. If you want to watch some real science in action, let's do our own little experiment here and post some meaningful "hard data" to ease your concern over my seemingly "lack of".

Since scientific "fact" is generally accepted to be based on a 90 percent consensus, let's subject Aisha and other child brides to the test.

Let's randomly ask a significant number of people on the streets if it's okay for fifty-four year old men to have sexual relations with nine year old prepubescents. Let's ask if most have any doubts that a nine year old is not yet sexually and emotionally mature. If even fifteen percent say "yes" (allowing room for error) I will gladly apologize for my lack of common sense.

That's better than any data that I could pull out of the most up to date science publications.

Silly, isn't it?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-13-2005, 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by bin direnken
I am using "intelligence" Ansar. Only a fool would claim to know everything simply because he saw it in print. Even smart humans are fallible and medical journals are constantly being revised.
It is foolish to back up claims with medical journals but it isn't foolish to speak without evidence?!

I was just thinking and had to come back. If you want to watch some real science in action, let's do our own little experiment here and post some meaningful "hard data" to ease your concern over my seemingly "lack of".

Since scientific "fact" is generally accepted to be based on a 90 percent consensus, let's subject Aisha and other child brides to the test.

Let's randomly ask a significant number of people on the streets if it's okay for fifty-four year old men to have sexual relations with nine year old prepubescents. Let's ask if most have any doubts that a nine year old is not yet sexually and emotionally mature. If even fifteen percent say "yes" (allowing room for error) I will gladly apologize for my lack of common sense.
Again, this is probably the most obvious strawmen visible. I am not saying it is okay for any man to marry any nine year old girl, I am specifically speaking about Aisha rd. Stick to the topic, if you can.

That's better than any data that I could pull out of the most up to date science publications.
No it isn't. They have surveys of people off the street which prove that most people don't even know the names of countries around the world. We don't base oour conclusions on the whims and ignorance of the mases but on specific evidence, historical data.

Its quite clear that you haven't been able to follow the warning I gave. Thanks for your time here.
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Malsidabym
02-08-2006, 04:32 PM
I am not going to reopen the debate about puberty, let us pretend that it was settled by the last few exchanges. I had two questions, but This thread answered one. The second question is, if a very similiar situation were at hand today, with a 54 year old man(not the prophet), and a nine year old girl, would it be ok now? Assume that the girl has reached puberty and is also nine. Would it be ok for them to have sexual relations? Also, would your opinion be any different if it was your daughter or sister? Please for the sake of the question assume that the situation is the same, and not offer reasons why it could not be the same. (My post was redirected here by a moderator)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-08-2006, 05:28 PM
Hi malsidab,
Originally Posted by malsidab
I am not going to reopen the debate about puberty, let us pretend that it was settled by the last few exchanges. I had two questions, but This thread answered one.
For the sake of clarity I was just curious as to which question you felt this thread answered.
The second question is, if a very similiar situation were at hand today, with a 54 year old man(not the prophet), and a nine year old girl, would it be ok now?
The problem with this kind of argument, and I've seen it many times before, is that we are not discussing about people in general but about the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and Aisha rd, and whether their marriage was acceptable.

But to answer your question, let us further examine the situation you have proposed. In the situation you mention the only point that is significant is the age of the girl. The age of the man is not as important. I would rather a girl marries a kind and loving man who is several years older than her, than marry an abusive man who is closer to her in age. So the only question that is important here is whether the girl has reached puberty and if she is ready to be married her consent is given. In that time in arabia, girls reached puberty earlier and it was customary for them to be married off earlier as well:
- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.

- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.

- Hisham ibn `Urwa himself (whom the objector claims to know enough to forward the most barefaced judgments on his reliability) married Fatima bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh Baghdad).

- Our liege-lord `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and Fatima at a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and others.
Also, Islamic marriages are not conducted in privacy but are open to the public. Social standards have a role in what age is considered appropriate for the girl to marry.

Regards
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- Qatada -
02-08-2006, 05:32 PM
First of all, you have to realise that society has changed over the times. This means - marriages like these don't happen that often within todays norm.

Therefore, yeah it is permissible for a marriage like this to exist (within islam) even in todays society, but it doesn't really happen that much.


I dont know if bro Ansar has mentioned this; but why should it be such a big deal if this was the norm of the arabian culture, and even in other parts of the world? Why didn't any of the anti-islamists at the time of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) attack him on his marriage?

Culture is different, and religion is different. Islam allows culture, as long as it doesn't contradict islam. Therefore - if a person is marrying a woman (because islamically, a person on their periods/wetdreams is an adult) then there is nothing wrong with that.
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Pinkie
02-08-2006, 05:45 PM
I don't know if anyone brought this up or not but during the time of Rasul Allah (saw), the life expectancy was not great. It was normal to get married at an early age.
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Christian_dove
02-08-2006, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I'm sure we can always re-defined any word so that it would fit any individual but that isn't going to change anything. The fact is that paedophilia is medically recognized as a psychosexual disorder with specific symptoms that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh simply doesn’t fit. He didn’t marry Aisha because of an attraction towards children, on the contrary, as the Islamonline teams notes:
[indent]As for the purpose of this marriage, it was purely for sociopolitical reason. The Prophet’s main concern was the future of Islam. He was interested in strengthening the Muslims by all bonds.
It seems the good prophet didn't realize what future generations would think about it, then? If he had lived in a modern society he would have been arrested and imprisoned. And thank God for that. Paedophilia is disgusting, and if the marriage was for "sociopolitical" reasons, why doesn't this come clear out of the story? Saying it was for sociopolitical reasons.. Well, that's just like your opinion, man... Not facts. Having said that, I am not saying that it couldn't be the case.

You as a non-muslim consider that Aisha was a child. She was nine years old when she came to live with the Prophet. What happened at the age of nine? She had her menses. According to Islamic law she is now considered a young women. And this is the natural dividing line between a child and a women. In the west if you look at the numbers at what age can men and women have consensual sex. In the UK it is 16 for heterosexual and for homosexual it is eighteen. You go to Ireland, it’s seventeen. You go to Germany, it’s sixteen. You go to France, it’s fifteen. Go to Italy, it’s fourteen. Go to Holland, it’s twelve. What in England is considered to be paedophilia in Holland is considered to be consensual sex. So their numbers are not based on any tangible dividing point. These numbers have just evolved or have been modified from cultural practices and norms. These figures were derived from a Newsweek article.
So what you are saying is that having sex with a 9 year old is perfectly okay as long as she has had her first period?
…So on one hand, the argument that she was a child falls because they don’t have an accurate point of deciding who’s a child and who’s not.
That is a pretty desperate thing to say in order to protect your faith. Any person with an adequate intellectual capasity is clearly able to see the difference between an adult and a 9 year old child. But if someone has a problem with this, here is the definition from Wikipedia:

Child development is the study or examination of processes and mechanisms that operate during the physical and mental development of an infant into an adult.

* Zygote, the point of Conception, fertilization
* Embryo; in the later stages also called fetus
* Birth
* Child
o Infant (baby, newborn) (0-1.5)
o Toddler (1.5-4)
o Primary school age (also called prepubescence) (4-12)
+ Elementary school age (also called middle childhood) (4-8)
+ Preadolescence (preteen, or late childhood. The child in this and the previous phase are called schoolchild (schoolboy or schoolgirl), when still of primary school age.) (9-12)
* Adolescence and puberty (teenage) (13-19)
* Young adult (16-25)
* Adult (16-21 or older; exact minimum age may vary)

So to categories Prophet Muhammad pbuh with a label describing sexual predators with a psychosexual disorder is simply ludicrous. Not only does Prophet Muhammad pbuh not fit the description of paedophilia, but the historical fact that Aisha attained puberty before she moved in with the Prophet saws refutes the charge entirely.
No, it doesn't. You may not like to hear this, but she was still a child and that is a fact that wont change no matter what you claim. You can ask any educated doctor and he will tell you the truth.

You're using a two-step method of trying to classify the Prophet Muhammad pbuh as immoral. First by adjusting the definition of paedophilia so that it fits him, and then sliding him back to be categorised amongst paedophiles whom we all regard as immoral.
Personally, I am not saying that Muhammad had sex with this girl at all. Maybe he was a wise man and only married here for sociopolitial reasons. However, that doesn't change the fact that you claim a 9 year old girl is a woman as long as she is having her periods. I have more problems with your definition of a woman than the story about Muhammad and his young wife...

A 9 year old girl is by no means ready to give birth to a child, even if she is capable of becoming pregnant. Her body isn't fully developed and neither is her mind.

Now, you may ban me for this, but your claims are so unreasonable I just couldn't resist refuting them.
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Christian_dove
02-08-2006, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
But to answer your question, let us further examine the situation you have proposed. In the situation you mention the only point that is significant is the age of the girl. The age of the man is not as important. I would rather a girl marries a kind and loving man who is several years older than her, than marry an abusive man who is closer to her in age. So the only question that is important here is whether the girl has reached puberty and if she is ready to be married her consent is given.
Regards
So the answer is yes? A 9 year old can marry and have sex with someone whos 54? Actually I am pretty shocked at your statements, Ansar Al-'Adl. I haven't discussed these matters with muslims before but now I am really concerned as to what is going on amongst some of you.. :(
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-08-2006, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
It seems the good prophet didn't realize what future generations would think about it, then? If he had lived in a modern society he would have been arrested and imprisoned.
I've already refuted this:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The vast majority of western countries do not even meet this limit! In the UK, England and Wales have set the age of consent at sixteen. Here are the US states that have the age of consent at sixteen:
Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, Alabama
And in New Hampshire, females may be married at the age of 13 if they have parental consent.

And countries like Japan, South Korea and Spain have the age at 13, while Mexico and the province of Quebec in Canada have said 12!

And even if we sent the age at 18, there still may be females who are not mature enough at this age. The reality is that the limit varies from individual to individual, and it must be determined according tot he symptoms of puberty.
So what you are saying is that having sex with a 9 year old is perfectly okay as long as she has had her first period?
1. I'm not speaking about anyone, I am speaking about the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and Aisha - I clarified this in my last post.
2. I quoted evidence from medical encyclopedia which clearly states that a) girls can reach puberty at the age of nine and b) the rate of maturity differs depending on different countries and climate.

Even though I should have to reapet myself, here is another quotation:
In healthy girls living in a temperate climate, the earliest sign of puberty occurs at a mean age of 10.6 years (standard deviation of 1.2 years), whereas, in boys, testicular growth begins at a mean age of 11.8, with a standard deviation of one year. The average age of menstruation is 13.5 years (range, 9–17 years). (Britannica 75999)

No, it doesn't. You may not like to hear this, but she was still a child and that is a fact that wont change no matter what you claim. You can ask any educated doctor and he will tell you the truth.
I already have. All medical professionals confirm that in the Arabian climate, girls matured much earlier and it was customary for them to be married off early. Even in the west, many countries used to have the age of consent at nine years or lower.

A 9 year old girl is by no means ready to give birth to a child, even if she is capable of becoming pregnant. Her body isn't fully developed and neither is her mind.
This actually quite easily refuted by ACTUAL CASE where a nine year old girl gave birth to a healthy child - see the appendix in this article:
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/index...iage-of-aishah

See also the evidence that it was customary for women to be married at this age in arabia, which I posted here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/178382-post52.html

Regards
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-08-2006, 10:49 PM
Do you have a problem with a girl who has attained puberty and is medically known to be able to birth, getting married? Please answer this question. What is the difference if a 20 year old girl marries a 30 year old man or a 40 year old man?
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Halima
02-08-2006, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
So the answer is yes? A 9 year old can marry and have sex with someone whos 54? Actually I am pretty shocked at your statements, Ansar Al-'Adl. I haven't discussed these matters with muslims before but now I am really concerned as to what is going on amongst some of you.. :(



Girls mature faster then men 'scientifically proven'

It doesnt make any difference if a 9 year old girl that has reached puberty to have sex with a 54 year old guy then a 25 year old girl to have sex with a 54 year old guy. There is no difference whatsoever.

How do you know that Prophet Muhammed(saw) had sex with Aisha immediately after they got married? Presumptions like these are lead to false perceptions about a topic as serious as this. This was all the way back in the 7th century. Back then, you had kings and queens from the royal dynasty marry someone that was not even 11 years old. Again in the Quran, it states that once a girl hits puberty then it is liable for her to marry. The Quran has not particulary stated which age a girl could hit pubety but I hope that you get the picture. Today girls hit puberty from 9-16 years old. Thousands of years ago It was normal for a girl to have hit puberty at the age of 16 years. I am quite certain it doesn't state the age when Aisha has hit pubert in the Quran. When prophet Muhammed (saw) married Aisha he probably waited a few years from the age of 9 years old to 12 years old to have sex with her. who knows?
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Christian_dove
02-08-2006, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by Halima
How do you know that Prophet Muhammed(saw) had sex with Aisha immediately after they got married? Presumptions like these are lead to false perceptions about a topic as serious as this.
Thank you for your reply. I wasn't saying that he did have sex with her, I haven't seen proof of that. I just think that someone at the age of 9 is too young to have sex...
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Halima
02-09-2006, 12:08 AM
Peace.




Originally Posted by Christian_dove
Thank you for your reply. I wasn't saying that he did have sex with her, I haven't seen proof of that. I just think that someone at the age of 9 is too young to have sex...


Yep I agree with you. Nine years old indeed is a pretty young age to have sex..but there are numerous cases when a girl reaches puberty at that age in the link that Brother Ansar has provided. However, I do see today in the modern world girls having sex at the age of 9 years old. If they can do it in this soceity, what is so phenomenal about doing it back during the Prophet's time? Of course the Prophet was married but today in the modern world how often do you see a 9 year old girl married compared to having sex out of wed lock? The numbers surely do vary. This day and age you see 9 year old girls being prostitues that are bound to get viral diseases but when you hear the Prophet Married to a 9 year old girl..you flip and why is that? Most of the people today are so afraid of peodhiles and rapists lurking around but when a man like the Prophet Muhammed(saw) choose to MARRY a 9 year old girl you they think that is absurd and may I ask why is that?
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Malsidabym
02-09-2006, 06:49 AM
Hi Halima,
When prophet Muhammed (saw) married Aisha he probably waited a few years from the age of 9 years old to 12 years old to have sex with her. who knows?
Just wanted to point out that the marriage was when Aisha was 6 years old, and the marriage was consumated when she was 9 years old, as it is recorded that this was the age she reached puberty.
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Christian_dove
02-09-2006, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by Halima
I do see today in the modern world girls having sex at the age of 9 years old. If they can do it in this soceity, what is so phenomenal about doing it back during the Prophet's time?
What society are you refering to? I live in a western country and if it came out someone had sex with a girl at the age of 9 they would get several years in prison. Our country is very protective towards children.

Of course the Prophet was married but today in the modern world how often do you see a 9 year old girl married compared to having sex out of wed lock?
Honestly, I have never heard of a girl having sex at the age of 9 here, unless she was raped or forced to have sex.

The numbers surely do vary. This day and age you see 9 year old girls being prostitues that are bound to get viral diseases but when you hear the Prophet Married to a 9 year old girl..you flip and why is that?
That is because in my society you have to be an adult (18 yrs) in order to get married and 16 to have sex. A child at the age of 9 is not able to decide wheter a marriage is a good thing or not, and noone has the right to make that decision for her, not even her parents. After all, a marriage has a great impact on a person and anyone should have the right to choose who to live their life with themselves. You may find it odd, but as you may know, not all parents are good parents and hence not all parents would make good decisions and find a good husband for their child. Money could be the reason for marrying her to someone, etc. In our society a person has to decide for themselves who will be a good husband/wife, and in order to do that, they have to be adults. Children don't know their own good.

By the way, prostitution is illegal here.

Most of the people today are so afraid of peodhiles and rapists lurking around but when a man like the Prophet Muhammed(saw) choose to MARRY a 9 year old girl you they think that is absurd and may I ask why is that?
We grant the children the right to be children until they are old enough to make good choices themselves. Marriage is a serious matter, and children needs the time to grow up before becoming someones wife/husband. Here, it is also normal for girls to finnish their education before getting married.
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kososhahab
02-09-2006, 10:54 AM
:sl: :hiding:

Aisha's Actual Age

Research subsequent to the time of Maulana Muhammad Ali has shown that she was older than this. An excellent short work presenting such evidence is the Urdu pamphlet Rukhsati kai waqt Sayyida Aisha Siddiqa ki umar (‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’) by Abu Tahir Irfani.[4a] Points 1 to 3 below have been brought to light in this pamphlet.

1. The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.” [6]

(Go here to see an image of the full entry in Urdu.)

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:

“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.” [7]

Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.” [8]

This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.

Two further evidences cited by Maulana Muhammad Ali
In the footnotes of his Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari, entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, Maulana Muhammad Ali had pointed out reports of two events which show that Aisha could not have been born later than the year of the Call. These are as follows.

1. The above mentioned statement by Aisha in Bukhari, about her earliest memory of her parents being that they were followers of Islam, begins with the following words in its version in Bukhari’s Kitab-ul-Kafalat. We quote this from the English translation of Bukhari by M. Muhsin Khan:

“Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant.” [9]

Commenting on this report, Maulana Muhammad Ali writes:

“This report sheds some light on the question of the age of Aisha. … The mention of the persecution of Muslims along with the emigration to Ethiopia clearly shows that this refers to the fifth or the sixth year of the Call. … At that time Aisha was of an age to discern things, and so her birth could not have been later than the first year of the Call.” [1

Again, this would make her more than fourteen at the time of the consummation of her marriage.

2. There is a report in Sahih Bukhari as follows:

“On the day (of the battle) of Uhud when (some) people retreated and left the Prophet, I saw Aisha daughter of Abu Bakr and Umm Sulaim, with their robes tucked up so that the bangles around their ankles were visible hurrying with their water skins (in another narration it is said, ‘carrying the water skins on their backs’). Then they would pour the water in the mouths of the people, and return to fill the water skins again and came back again to pour water in the mouths of the people.” [11]

Maulana Muhammad Ali writes in a footnote under this report:

“It should also be noted that Aisha joined the Holy Prophet’s household only one year before the battle of Uhud. According to the common view she would be only ten years of age at this time, which is certainly not a suitable age for the work she did on this occasion. This also shows that she was not so young at this time.” [12]

If, as shown in the previous section above, Aisha was nineteen at the time of the consummation of her marriage, then she would be twenty years old at the time of the battle of Uhud. It may be added that on the earlier occasion of the battle of Badr when some Muslim youths tried, out of eagerness, to go along with the Muslim army to the field of battle, the Holy Prophet Muhammad sent them back on account of their young age (allowing only one such youngster, Umair ibn Abi Waqqas, to accompany his older brother the famous Companion Sa‘d ibn Abi Waqqas). It seems, therefore, highly unlikely that if Aisha was ten years old the Holy Prophet would have allowed her to accompany the army to the field of battle.

We conclude from all the evidence cited above that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) was nineteen years old when she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife in the year 2 A.H., the nikah or betrothal having taken place five years previously.

What about Mary, Jesus' Mother peace be upon both of them? How old was she when she got pregnant?

Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the Jewish society. the case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Mary had already been "BETHROED" to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man. therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she was "BETHROED" to Joseph. we Muslims would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".

This paragraph was sent to me by brother Mike, who embraced Islam recently; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him: According to the Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church: "Mary was approximately 14 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus. Joseph, Mary's Husband is believed to be around 36. Mary was only 13 when she married Joseph. When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."

According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary (peace be upon her) was was 12 years old when she became impregnated.

So if I want to be as silly and ridiculous as many of the Christians, I would respond to them by saying that Mary was psychologically and emotionally devastated for getting pregnant at a very young age. And speaking of "child molesting", since most Christians believe that Jesus is the Creater of this universe, then why did GOD allow himself to enter life through a 12-year old young girl's vagina? Please note that we Muslims love and respect Allah Almighty, Mary, Jesus and Allah's Message to the People of the Book (The Jews and Christians). In other words, we Muslims would never make fun of Christianity through such childish topic like this one as many ridiculous Christians do make fun of Islam through our Prophet's (peace be upon him) marriage.

The point is:

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was not a child molester as the haters of Islam claim. He was a Noble Messenger of God. Muhammad peace be upon him lived in a society and culture that existed 1400 years ago, and we must not judge what he or others did based on our standards today. It is wrong and foolish to do so !.

I hope u get my point!
:w: :statisfie
Reply

Christian_dove
02-09-2006, 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by kososhahab
The point is:

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was not a child molester as the haters of Islam claim. He was a Noble Messenger of God. Muhammad peace be upon him lived in a society and culture that existed 1400 years ago, and we must not judge what he or others did based on our standards today. It is wrong and foolish to do so !.

I hope u get my point!
:w: :statisfie
Good point! And I am not a hater of Islam. But does this mean that many other things in the Quoran also has to be seen in the light of the age when it was written?
Reply

Christian_dove
02-09-2006, 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by kososhahab
According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary (peace be upon her) was was 12 years old when she became impregnated.
To my knowledge, there are no Scriptures that clearly address the matter of Mary’s age, so saying that she was 12-14 will only be speculations.

Regards
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-09-2006, 01:29 PM
Hi Christian dove and malsidab,
Am I going to get a response?
Reply

- Qatada -
02-09-2006, 05:54 PM
Seems like everyone wants to ignore bro Ansar :rollseyes
Reply

Malsidabym
02-10-2006, 06:46 AM
Ansar Al-'Adl,
Hi Christian dove and malsidab,
Am I going to get a response?
I haven't looked at this thread for a day or so, sorry I missed your question. I read back and think you are wanting to know what my first question was that I found an answer for. That question was answered a couple of days ago and I cannot recall what it was now. I have read back in threads to try to find it and cannot, sorry. Once I find answers I usually accept it, file the answer in my mind and move on, it is as if I always knew that. (I know, that's a little wierd, but it is efficient - information gets processed quickly) If it comes back to me what the question was in the first place I'll message you. Sorry.
Reply

Christian_dove
02-10-2006, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Do you have a problem with a girl who has attained puberty and is medically known to be able to birth, getting married? Please answer this question. What is the difference if a 20 year old girl marries a 30 year old man or a 40 year old man?
20 to 40, no problem. 9 to 54? I have a problem.


regards
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-10-2006, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
20 to 40, no problem. 9 to 54? I have a problem.
What about 20 to 54? I assume no problem again.

What we see is that the age of the man is largely irrelevant to the question, so long as he is still reasonably within the age of marriage.

The only issue that is important here, then is the age of the girl. If she is mature enough and has reached puberty, able to give her consent, then this is the defining criteria for marriage. As we know, in different places of the world and in different societies and cultures, medical studies prove that the age at which boys and girls reach this point fluctuates. Hence, the marriage should be based on social norms. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh married according to the social norms of his society, and we marry according to the social norms that we live in.

Regards
Reply

Ghazi
02-10-2006, 11:36 PM
Salaam

I don't see the big deal, remember times where diffrent back then and society changes the norm now woould have been diffrent
Reply

kososhahab
02-11-2006, 01:59 AM
:sl:

Therefore, with all the arguements above, we have come to the conclusion that our beloved, Muhammad s.a.w is not paedophile. And his marriage to Aisha is accepted by all....


:w:
Reply

kososhahab
02-11-2006, 02:12 AM
Good point! And I am not a hater of Islam. But does this mean that many other things in the Quran also has to be seen in the light of the age when it was written?
actually, f.y.i, not all, some parts of the Quran is directed to the pple from the past(at the time when Muhammad.s.a.w was still alive)

however, some other parts of the Quran is directed directly to us!!!to pple from the time Muhammads.a.w was still around till now!
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-12-2006, 07:16 PM
:sl:
Please do not post in this section without providing evidence and references or posts will be deleted. This section works a little differently from other sections on the forum.
Reply

SuperJatt
02-17-2006, 12:30 PM
Some scholars say that the hadith collectors Bukhari and Muslim applied less stringent standards to hadith relating to history than they did to hadith relating directly to prayer and family law. Hence a historical tradition included in Bukhari or Muslim cannot be presumed to be "strong".

According to Abd ar Rahman ibn Abi Zannad, Aisha was 10 years younger than her sister Asma. That is also confirmed by Ibn Kathir Virtually all other historical reports also agree in this matter. Ibn Kathir also reports that Asma was present when her son died in 73 AH and she herself died 5 days thereafter (other reports differ slightly, giving between 5 and 100 days between the deaths of the two). At the time of her death she was 100 years old This is also confirmed by Ibn Hadschar who reports that she died in 73 or 74 AH at the age of 100 years But this means, of course, that Asma was 27 or 28 years old at 1 AH and the 10 years youger Aisha already 17 or 18, so when Muhammad and Aisha started to live together she was already 19 or 20.
Reply

sargon
02-19-2006, 05:44 AM
I'd like more research to be done about Aisha's actual age because what I've read may conclude that she wasn't 9 at all. In any case if the point of marriage is to have kids that will serve God, then of course the Prophet, and Muslims after him are striving to have sex for this purpose and not only out of lust.

The whole Aisha argument seems to be one of the big barriers for many would-be Muslims. I had to overcome it myself. I took my judgements as programming from my western culture that I grew up in, but either way it'd be nice to not have to refute that point any more and just get straight to more important issues when giving da'wa. :P

So what do you guys think? I think there's evidence to support that Aisha's age was older, but either way it's not very relevant.
Reply

Danish
02-24-2006, 11:22 AM
:sl:
kososhahab sargon and others,
i think it should be pointed out that islamic sources are hadith and quran. And as the hadith. hadiths such as in Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 and number 65

Those hadith clearly indicate marriage was consumated at 9, so unless those hadith are proven to be Da3eef, i dont think we can say marriage age was higher.
Reply

nishom
02-24-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Danish
:sl:
kososhahab sargon and others,
i think it should be pointed out that islamic sources are hadith and quran. And as the hadith. hadiths such as in Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 and number 65

Those hadith clearly indicate marriage was consumated at 9, so unless those hadith are proven to be Da3eef, i dont think we can say marriage age was higher.
Totally correct.
In the face of unfouinded western criticism, we should not change the hadith so as to please them.
The Hadith in Bukhari and Muslim both state that Aisha was 6 when nikah was done and that she moved in with the prophet when 9. Ithink some of these hadith even come from Hadhrat Aisha herself.
Reply

nishom
02-24-2006, 03:12 PM
'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)
Reply

Danish
02-27-2006, 10:34 AM
:sl:
^ Totally, also the following hadith number 65 states the same

Ithink some of these hadith even come from Hadhrat Aisha herself.
They are narrated by her
Reply

dumbo
03-06-2006, 04:52 PM
I take it most have read the articles on www.understanding-islam.com regarding this?

http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...estion&qid=375

Title:
What was Ayesha's (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage to the Prophet (pbuh)?

Question:

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.


Answer:

To begin with[1], I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly misreported in the narratives of the incident. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

*

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
*

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy-one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years.
*

Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51).
*

Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 - 302).
*

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not even only an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why should we not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
*

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them.
*

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah[2] when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
*

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.
*

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not even have been born during the first year of Islam.
*

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (ra) planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam. Subsequently, his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
*

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
*

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Reply

Danish
03-07-2006, 11:18 AM
:sl:
To begin with[1], I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...ID=4604&CATE=1 states:

- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.

- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.

- Hisham ibn `Urwa himself (whom the objector claims to know enough to forward the most barefaced judgments on his reliability) married Fatima bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh Baghdad).

- Our liege-lord `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and Fatima at a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and others.

I am trying to find more info on this and to check their reliabiltity. i wish http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...ID=4604&CATE=1 had given more precise references

dumbo, as for the rest of the article i think those who differ need regarding age need to disprove Sahih Bukhari and Sahih muslim, and prove our islam should be taken from other historical books.
Reply

sargon
03-07-2006, 11:19 AM
:sl:
But her herself narrated she was nine years old, are those hadiths not authentic?
:w:
Reply

HeiGou
03-07-2006, 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by Danish
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...ID=4604&CATE=1 states:

- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.
But al-Shafi'i was born after Muhammed wasn't he? Surely the improtant question is not what Muslims did after Muhammed, but what Arabs did before Muhammed? The question is whether this reflects normal behaviour in Arab culture before Islam or Islamic reform.

- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.
Sure. Muslim wives. So after Muhammed established the norm for Muslims.
Reply

dumbo
03-07-2006, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Danish

dumbo, as for the rest of the article i think those who differ need regarding age need to disprove Sahih Bukhari and Sahih muslim, and prove our islam should be taken from other historical books.
Its not a matter of "disproving" Bukhari and Muslim. Apparently hadiths relating to historical events were not investigated as thoroughly as those relating to islamic rulings. The Author of the article himself uses other hadiths in bukhari which indicate Aisha's age at different times e.g. the revelation of Surah 54. Regarding the hadiths re Aishas age at marriage, he is pointing out the areas of doubt.

1. there is no completely madinian chain of narration of this event. Surely it would be more widely reported in the place where Aisha spent most of her life.

2. according to Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51) And these hadiths are narrated through people in iraq, hence it can be said there is doubt about its reliability.

3. Other hadith which indicate Aishas age at different times, conflicting with these hadiths relating to her marriage age.

This puts forward a doubt to the authenticity of these hadiths.
Reply

nishom
03-07-2006, 04:09 PM
Rather than debating the age, i would appreciate it very much if someone could give me some info on the actual relationship of the prophet ()pbuh)with Aisha.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-07-2006, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
So after Muhammed established the norm for Muslims.
THe notion that Muhammad initiated a new practice in marrying young girls is quite absurd, especially considering the fact that Aisha was already engaged to someone else.

And you misunderstood the quote from Ash-Shafi'i. He said he saw nine year old pubescent girls in yemen, something that relates primarily to the climate's influence on maturity, then marital practices. If he found this to be common in Yemen (bearing in mind that this was only 2/3 generations after the Prophet Muhammad's time) then it means that it was part of the arab culture there.

:sl:
Originally Posted by nishom
Rather than debating the age, i would appreciate it very much if someone could give me some info on the actual relationship of the prophet ()pbuh)with Aisha.
I agree that it is besides the point to debate over her age. The important thing is that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh married her after she reached the age of puberty, and it was customary to marry at an early age then. If you read this thread from the beginning you will find that I've given lots of information on the Prophet's relationship with Aisha rd.

:w:
Reply

HeiGou
03-07-2006, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
THe notion that Muhammad initiated a new practice in marrying young girls is quite absurd, especially considering the fact that Aisha was already engaged to someone else.

And you misunderstood the quote from Ash-Shafi'i. He said he saw nine year old pubescent girls in yemen, something that relates primarily to the climate's influence on maturity, then marital practices. If he found this to be common in Yemen (bearing in mind that this was only 2/3 generations after the Prophet Muhammad's time) then it means that it was part of the arab culture there.
I was hoping for some great links as you usually give me more to think about. Being engaged is not the same as being married. Also I would want to know about the historical basis of the claim of engagement.

It was part of Muslim Arab culture there. It was only a little while after Muhammed's time but he would have seen a lot of things there he would not have seen before Muhammed - prayers for instance. Why is it absurd?

If I remember correctly one of Muhammed's Jewish wives was taken after her husband was killed following three days (I think) of marriage. That suggests some women got married a lot older. Fatima was nineteen or so when she married. Which has always struck me as odd. Presumably Khadija was older than nine as well when she married for the first time. There must be a lot of material on marriages before Islam.
Reply

nishom
03-07-2006, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
THe notion that Muhammad initiated a new practice in marrying young girls is quite absurd, especially considering the fact that Aisha was already engaged to someone else.

And you misunderstood the quote from Ash-Shafi'i. He said he saw nine year old pubescent girls in yemen, something that relates primarily to the climate's influence on maturity, then marital practices. If he found this to be common in Yemen (bearing in mind that this was only 2/3 generations after the Prophet Muhammad's time) then it means that it was part of the arab culture there.

:sl:

I agree that it is besides the point to debate over her age. The important thing is that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh married her after she reached the age of puberty, and it was customary to marry at an early age then. If you read this thread from the beginning you will find that I've given lots of information on the Prophet's relationship with Aisha rd.

:w:

Thanks.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-07-2006, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
I was hoping for some great links as you usually give me more to think about. Being engaged is not the same as being married. Also I would want to know about the historical basis of the claim of engagement.
I didn't provide links because I was pretty sure I had already mentioned it in this thread or another. I don't have time to search for it now, so I'll just point out again that Aisha rd was engaged to the son of Mu'tim bin Adiy who later cancelled the marriage because Abu Bakr rd was a Muslim, and this point is mentioned in practically every detailed sirah.

It was part of Muslim Arab culture there. It was only a little while after Muhammed's time but he would have seen a lot of things there he would not have seen before Muhammed - prayers for instance. Why is it absurd?
Because of the reasons you pointed out yourself. First, prayer is obligatory and part of the religion. Marrying a very young girl is not even considered a sunnah, so by no means could it be considered part of the religion. Second, as you pointed out yourself, most of the Prophet's marriages were to women much older than A'isha. Why would the yemeni's reverse their entire culture in less than two generations to follow what the Prophet pbuh did once, and not what he normally did? The only logical explanation is that the the cultural norm in yemen, as in many other parts of arabia, was to marry girls young. This is the only way to interpret Imam Ash-Shafi'i's observation.

Peace.
Reply

Danish
03-08-2006, 10:55 AM
:sl
Its not a matter of "disproving" Bukhari and Muslim. Apparently hadiths relating to historical events were not investigated as thoroughly as those relating to islamic rulings. The Author of the article himself uses other hadiths in bukhari which indicate Aisha's age at different times e.g. the revelation of Surah 54. Regarding the hadiths re Aishas age at marriage, he is pointing out the areas of doubt.

1. there is no completely madinian chain of narration of this event. Surely it would be more widely reported in the place where Aisha spent most of her life.

2. according to Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51) And these hadiths are narrated through people in iraq, hence it can be said there is doubt about its reliability.

3. Other hadith which indicate Aishas age at different times, conflicting with these hadiths relating to her marriage age.

This puts forward a doubt to the authenticity of these hadiths.
lol and those are supposed to be the reasons for not accepting Bukhari? Actually i was wondering if u could shed some light on
3. Other hadith which indicate Aishas age at different times, conflicting with these hadiths relating to her marriage age.
Regarding weak Narrtaion point which is sometimes brought up, Mufti Ebrahim Desai answers:

Question:
What was the age of Hazrat Ayesha Siddique(RAA) at the time of her marriage to Rasulullah(SAW)?

Some muslims who are appalled by the idea that she was as young as 9yrs old when the marriage was consumated, say she could not have been so young and that the Hadiths which say she was 9 are not reliable because they are transmitted by a narrator from Iraq and these narrators are not reliable and they cite evidence for their claims. See http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm


Answer: Our beloved Mother, Hadhrat Aisha (Radhiallahu Anha) was 9 years of age at the time of the consummation of her marriage with Rasulullah (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam). This is proved from dozens of different authentic ahadith, narrated from many different Sahabah. Certain modernists, in an attempt to distort this fact have tried to cast doubt on the authenticity of this narration by questioning the reliability of one narrator, however they seem to have (deliberately) overlooked the fact that this very same narration is reported by over a dozen other reliable reporters.

There is absolutely no reason for us to try to deny or apologize for the marriage of Hadhrat Aisha (Radhiallahu anha) at this young age. The women of that time would mature much quicker, thus once she matured her marriage was consummated.

And Allah Ta'ala knows best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Reference: http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=586
Reply

dumbo
03-08-2006, 11:16 PM
Salaam,

Having read the articles which offers doubt as to the age of Aisha when she married:http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...estion&qid=375 and the response posted here: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...ID=4604&CATE=1

The author of the first article states:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre-Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:

All four of his [i.e. Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives - the names of whom we have already mentioned - during the pre-Islamic period. (Tarikh al-umam wa al-mamloo'k, Al-Tabari, Vol. 4, Pg. 50, Arabic, Dar al-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

In the second article the Author states:

Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two each, `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.

This is confusing me. Does anyone here know which statement is correct?
Reply

renak
03-09-2006, 06:27 AM
Amazingly this "issue" has never disturbed me. When we realistically think of a nine year old girl, during Aisha's time period, we need to consider that marriage after menses was very common (for muslims, jews, and christians).

It may be too much information, but I must admit that at nine years of age I was equal to a lot of 15-18 year old girls in respect to physical maturity. Physical and emotional development varies for each girl.
Reply

abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 06:29 AM
true, and nothing is ever against anybodys will, in marriage the female muslim should have the choice to agree or disagree, if anybody does different its against....
Reply

Danish
03-09-2006, 10:18 AM
:sl:
Amazingly this "issue" has never disturbed me. When we realistically think of a nine year old girl, during Aisha's time period, we need to consider that marriage after menses was very common (for muslims, jews, and christians).

It may be too much information, but I must admit that at nine years of age I was equal to a lot of 15-18 year old girls in respect to physical maturity. Physical and emotional development varies for each girl.
very true, maturity used to be different age back in time. Look at the example of King Tut for instance...
Reply

HeiGou
03-09-2006, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I didn't provide links because I was pretty sure I had already mentioned it in this thread or another. I don't have time to search for it now, so I'll just point out again that Aisha rd was engaged to the son of Mu'tim bin Adiy who later cancelled the marriage because Abu Bakr rd was a Muslim, and this point is mentioned in practically every detailed sirah.
I will see if I can look for a previous thread.

But again, being engaged to is not the same as being married to. A lot of cultures promise children when young. Not all of them marry them young.

Because of the reasons you pointed out yourself. First, prayer is obligatory and part of the religion. Marrying a very young girl is not even considered a sunnah, so by no means could it be considered part of the religion.
Surely everything Muhammed did is relevant for Muslims and part, even if a minor part, of the religion?

Second, as you pointed out yourself, most of the Prophet's marriages were to women much older than A'isha. Why would the yemeni's reverse their entire culture in less than two generations to follow what the Prophet pbuh did once, and not what he normally did? The only logical explanation is that the the cultural norm in yemen, as in many other parts of arabia, was to marry girls young. This is the only way to interpret Imam Ash-Shafi'i's observation.
Because everything they did before hand was from the Days of Ignorance. Everything they did after should be Islamic. Presumably their entire culture changed over those two generations as they ceased to do what they did before and started to behave Islamically. Muhammed provided a model to be emulated.

I think it is fairly convincing, but I do not think it is the only explanation.
Reply

sargon
03-09-2006, 03:31 PM
:sl:
I don't understand why the prophet wouldn't marry Hamza but would marry Aisha.

Vol 7, Book 62. Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah). Hadith 037.
Narrated By Ibn 'Abbas : It was said to the Prophet, "Won't you marry the daughter of Hamza?" He said, "She is my foster niece (brother's daughter)."


Vol 7, Book 62. Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah). Hadith 018.
Narrated By 'Ursa : The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she ('Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."
:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-09-2006, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
I will see if I can look for a previous thread.
Thanks.

Surely everything Muhammed did is relevant for Muslims and part, even if a minor part, of the religion?
This is a misunderstanding of Islamic law. Actions which the Prophet did do not automatically become part of the religion unless he recommended them, in which case they become Sunnah. Riding a camel is not considered part of the religion, for example.

Also, the Prophet pbuh normally married women much older than A'isha, so why would the exception and not the norm become the tradition to be followed?

Because everything they did before hand was from the Days of Ignorance. Everything they did after should be Islamic.
But you didn't answer my point about the Prophet normally marrying women older than A'isha. Why would they reverse their culture to follow something that the Prophet pbuh did not usually do?

:sl: sargon
Originally Posted by sargon
:sl:
I don't understand why the prophet wouldn't marry Hamza's daughter but would marry Aisha.
Hamza was actually the Prophet's foster brother. But Abu Bakar was just his brother in Islam.

:w:
Reply

sargon
03-09-2006, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl: sargon

Hamza was actually the Prophet's foster brother. But Abu Bakar was just his brother in Islam.

:w:
:sl:
Thanks for clearing that up :)
:w:
Reply

Zulkiflim
03-12-2006, 04:09 PM
Salaam,

The law of paedophilia is a western enforced.

Why simply becasue there are men in the west that abuse children.
The Prophet Muhammad saw married the Lady Aisha..

A large difference,,married...
While the west recognized that many of it people take for granted the loose society it is in and abuse children,even their own....
Thus the reason for the law.

take for exaple the latest case of a westerner being charged with sexual abuse of young girls in asia.Ziggy is it...
He had his way with the children,changing partners every so often...
Reply

HeiGou
03-12-2006, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
The law of paedophilia is a western enforced.

Why simply becasue there are men in the west that abuse children.
The Prophet Muhammad saw married the Lady Aisha..

A large difference,,married...
While the west recognized that many of it people take for granted the loose society it is in and abuse children,even their own....
Thus the reason for the law.

take for exaple the latest case of a westerner being charged with sexual abuse of young girls in asia.Ziggy is it...
He had his way with the children,changing partners every so often...
Just out of curiousity, are you taking the position that crime is a social construct? That is, if society does not define a certain behaviour as illegal, there is no crime? Would Garry Glitter really have made the world a better place if he had married any of the girls he abused?

Look I am happy to accept Islam has Islamic law. But if you think that it is better to criticise the West for not legalising such behaviour then we will have to disagree.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-13-2006, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by dumbo
I take there is no one on here with the knowledge to answer this question?
:sl: brother,

You'll have to look it up if you want to confirm it for certain.
Reply

Plato
04-08-2006, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Here's my challenge to you. Pick one specific issue that you wish to discuss, create a topic for it in the appropriate section, and we'll discuss it inshaa'Allah. You'll find that if we discuss the arguments one-by-one it exposes their invalidity and weakness.
i have read their thread, the thread here, and went to wikipedia to find more sources about it.

its not that simple issue i see. in wikipedia the say:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty
which says basicly that statistcly only afro amarican womans might reach puberty when they are 9 years and 10 months old. Ok, so it is possible to reach puberty at that age, but extremly rare.
the also show freak cases:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina

i see that many of you are calling me to calm down, and to be carefull with what i read. but i must check diferent sources, pro and against, this is what i allways do.

i understand that publicity should not be given to those sites. but if we provide both alternatives, people can decide for themselfs. this can only make us stronger on this word jihad! ... or not. i am not sure anymore.

i must think a while. goodbye.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-08-2006, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by Plato
i have read their thread, the thread here, and went to wikipedia to find more sources about it.
Since I have established my argument in this thread on the basis of evidence from medical encyclopaedia, any point from a source like wikipedia becomes meaningless. It is normal for the age of maturity to differ amongst different ethnic groups and different climates.
Puberty normally occurs between 13 and 15 years old in boys, and between 9 and 16 years old in girls. (Medline Plus Medical Encyclopaedia)

In healthy girls living in a temperate climate, the earliest sign of puberty occurs at a mean age of 10.6 years (standard deviation of 1.2 years), whereas, in boys, testicular growth begins at a mean age of 11.8, with a standard deviation of one year. The average age of menstruation is 13.5 years (range, 9–17 years). (Britannica 75999)
And the evidence I produced showed that such marriages were customary at that time.

Regards
Reply

- Qatada -
11-11-2006, 10:57 PM
The Marriage of Aa'isha and Muhammad (peace be upon him) - Beautiful Refutation by Yusuf Estes.




Media Tags are no longer supported



Download Link [Right Click - Save Target As/Save Link As]:

http://kalamullah.com/Yusuf%20Estes/...20Marraige.mp3



http://kalamullah.com/yusuf-estes.html
Reply

chris4336
12-05-2006, 01:58 PM
Hello all. I see that all the threads on Aisha’s marriage are closed, so I am starting this one because I feel that I have something new to add to the argument. In the last thread Ansar challenged those who think sexual relations for a girl of the age of 9 is wrong to provide medical evidence. Well I did just a really quick search of medical literature, and found that the common medical view is that early pregnancy (a direct consequence of early sex) is damaging for the women involved.



The authors of this article from the World Health Organization came to this conclusion:
Adolescent girls who delay marriage and childbearing benefit by completing their own growth first. They avoid putting themselves and their babies
at risk of nutritional deprivation.

http://www.who.int/reproductive-heal...dulthood/7.pdf

Women of young maternal age (10-13 years) are approximately 2.5 times more likely to have a low birthweight infant and 3.4 times more likely to have a preterm birth than women of "prime" childbearing age
Journal of Adolescent Health. 1997 Mar;20(3):187-97.

Adolescent growth in girls less than 16 years who have a child nearly stops, even if nutrition is good. Maternal mortality among adolescents is higher than it is among women aged 20-30. Maternal morbidity is also higher in girls aged 15-19. The main pregnancy complications are severe anemia, renal complications, eclampsia, pre-eclampsia, and labor complications (e.g., vesico-vaginal or recto-vaginal fistulas). They are most common in the youngest adolescents.Dev Sante. (a French medical journal) 1992;(98):23-5.

…young still-growing women appeared not to mobilize fat reserves late in pregnancy to enhance fetal growth, apparently reserving them instead for their own continued development.
America Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 1994 Aug;60(2):183-8.


So I don't think its an very outrageous claim to say that having sex with a younger women even if she has reached puberty can have very damaging consequences for her. Certainly a Prophet of God would have known these adverse consequences, even if it was acceptable behavior at the time? Now, I would understand as you said on the last thread that this situation might have been limited to the Prophet for certain reasons. But my questions then are:
1. Can you prove that this behavior was meant to be limited to this specific situation?
2. How can you get the message to the Muslim community that even though it was done by the Prophet, this type of behavior can be damaging to young women today?
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-05-2006, 02:31 PM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament
Recitation of Sura Fathiha by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia
http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au


&&&


A 9-year old Thai girl gave birth:


thaigal -

Back to Prophet Muhammad (p)was not a Child Molester!

You will also see proofs from Jewish and Christian resources that Mary (Jesus' mother) peace be upon her got pregnant at the age of 12.


Originally Posted by chris4336

Hello all. ..... But my questions then are:
1. Can you prove that this behavior was meant to be limited to this specific situation?

2. How can you get the message to the Muslim community that even though it was done by the Prophet, this type of behavior can be damaging to young women today?

Firstly , age of Mother Aisha (ra ) is disputed ....she could be 17.

2nd. She was a Qurani Hafiz....a great teacher. She taught many hadith. Her life is a great example that how a Muslim woman can be a great learner , teacher etc.

Many companions of the last Prophet (p) also asked her many questions. It's a clear sign that her early marriage ( if indeed she was 9 ) did not harm her in any way.

In the west , young girls are enjoying sex with unlimited partners.....no one bothers. It surprises me a lot that why a happy marriage that took more than a thousand years ago still arises so many questions ???

It's not compulsory for any parent to arrange early marriage of their daughter . Moreover , by man made law it's prohibited to arrange early marriage though girls in the west are enjoying pre-marriage sex .

U may visit these links :




Addressing Misconceptions about Prophet’s Marriage to `Aisha (ra)

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...hFatwaID=63495

Can a woman be forced into marriage in Islam?

http://www.answering-christianity.com/




The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
http://www.alinaam.org.za/index.html

http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/frq/Aisha.htm

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/oraja/marriage.html


http://www.anwary-islam.com/index.htm





CONDENSED:

[InAuthentic]



3. A girl becomes a woman when she begins her menstruation cycle.

4. The significance of menstruation that anyone with the slightest familiarity with physiology will tell you is that it is a sign that the girl is being prepared to become a mother.

5. Women reach puberty at different ages ranging from 8-12 years old depending on genetics, race and environment.


6. According to Hâ-Talmûd Hâ-Bavlî, which the Jews regard as their "oral Torah", Sanhedrin 76b clearly states that it is preferable that a woman be married when she has her first menses




http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

My response to the "Child Molester" lie against our beloved Prophet, Muhammad peace be upon him:

The sections of this article are:

1- Introduction.

- Child brides as young as 8 were common, not exceptions, among the Byzantine emperors and nobility.



- A picture of a 9-year old girl giving birth in Thailand.
- 12-year old in Romania getting married.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
12-05-2006, 02:42 PM
:sl:

Firstly , age of Mother Aisha (ra ) is disputed ....she could be 17.
There is no difference of opinion on her age. She was 6 when she was married and 9 when the marriage was consumated.

Bukhari - Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:


Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Bukhari is the most authentic book after the Quran. His marriage to Aisha was one of the greatest blessings upon this Ummah because due to her, we learned so much about the life of the Messenger. She is the 4th highest narrator of Ahadith. She had the mind of a scholor and due to this marriage we know the much about the life of the Messenger at home. And this was a divinely inspired Marriage.

Bukhari - Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235:

Narrated 'Aisha:
That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."
Reply

chris4336
12-05-2006, 03:01 PM
I am not arguing that menstruation shows a woman is physically prepared to have a child. I also never said that I accept the fact that many young girls in the West had multiple sexual partners. And finally, I really don't care what was acceptable in Bibical times, the claim made by Muslims is that the teachings of the Prophet are acceptable in all times.

But the majority of medical evidence today shows that pregnancy at a young age can be very harmful to the woman. Even if she has reached her first menstral period. Do you agree with this? I have shared only a sampling, but maybe I can look up some more or some other people can look up some more.

Even though she can have a baby this does not mean this won't cause her harm. The human body is capable of a lot of things, but this does not mean these things will not cause us harm.

I agree that it was not harmful to Aisha. Maybe she was happy and physically unharmed - just like not everyone who smokes will get lung cancer. But shouldn't we take steps to eliminate smoking?

EDIT: If it is prohibited by man made law shouldn't it have been prohibited by religious law that claims to cover all aspects of one's life?
Reply

chris4336
12-05-2006, 03:12 PM
Maybe I am not making myself clear. I really don't have much of a problem with Aisha's marriage to the Prophet - its clear (to Muslims) that God told him to do it, that she was unharmed, and that there was a specific reason for this marriage and consummation at such a young age.

The problem is that this behavior is acceptable in the religion for any man. Under Islamic law any 50 year old man can marry and have sex with any 9, 8, or 7 year old as long as she has her period, correct? This is contradictory to all the medical literature which states that pregnancy at a young age can be very harmful for a woman.
Reply

Umar001
12-05-2006, 03:15 PM
Well it will take time to read through things, what I have understood is not that it is very harmful, rather that it may have some disadvantages, at the same time some of those can be combated.

I need to read into it more.

Eesa.
Reply

chris4336
12-05-2006, 03:21 PM
Well if it has some disadvatages, what are the advantages? Would you completely miss out on all the adavantages if you waited, lets say 2 years after her first period to have sex with her?

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack Islam, I'm just trying to see what steps Islam takes to protect young girls who might suffer the medical consequences of such marriages. I think it would be foolish to say that Muslims men in the world are not using this rule because of their desires to have sex with virgins, at the expense of the health and well being of these girls.
Reply

YusufNoor
12-05-2006, 03:25 PM
:sl:

there are some Jewish midrash that say Isaac's wife was 6 when married.

would that make you question Christianty?

also, somewhere here, there's a link to a Yusuf Estes lecture on the topic...

:w:
Reply

Angelzz
12-05-2006, 03:26 PM
Salaam Alaykum

My understanding is that the girls parents would still need to approve of the marriage - so question becomes which parent these days will be approving a marriage for someone that young ? unless of course - poverty or the like are forcing their hand?
Reply

Umar001
12-05-2006, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

there are some Jewish midrash that say Isaac's wife was 6 when married.

would that make you question Christianty?

also, somewhere here, there's a link to a Yusuf Estes lecture on the topic...

:w:
I think it is very very important for Muslims not to kind of point the finger, if a person asks about something with regards to Islaam, and they want to know the Islamic position and how Islaam justifies things, in alot, not all, but alot of cases all that saying 'Chrsitianity says ...' or 'in the west they do this..' will only give them impression that Muslims dont have an answer.


Originally Posted by Angelzz
Salaam Alaykum

My understanding is that the girls parents would still need to approve of the marriage - so question becomes which parent these days will be approving a marriage for someone that young ? unless of course - poverty or the like are forcing their hand?
Wa Aleykum Salam,

I think that is a very crucial part of it too, the girl and the parents both need to approve, thats a step there.


Originally Posted by chris4336
Well if it has some disadvatages, what are the advantages? Would you completely miss out on all the adavantages if you waited, lets say 2 years after her first period to have sex with her?

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack Islam, I'm just trying to see what steps Islam takes to protect young girls who might suffer the medical consequences of such marriages. I think it would be foolish to say that Muslims men in the world are not using this rule because of their desires to have sex with virgins, at the expense of the health and well being of these girls.

I think those questions are valid, and they are food for thought and something to research. I dont think you'd completly miss out on all the possabilities as such.

For me Chris, I need to read more, because I have read the link you gave but I have not read the other sources you quoted from, so if you know of any online places for those then please provide the links.
Reply

chris4336
12-05-2006, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I've listened the Yusuf lecture, but there is not so much said about the medical consequences these marriages can have on young woman. Maybe the prophet and Aisha were happy but does that mean that lots of other girls will not be/have not been harmed by this ruling?

Again, I'm not really talking about Christianity, and I'm not using Christianity as a basis to judge other religions.
EDIT: Yes thank you Eesa

I think this ruling most affects poor girls, who have no other options? Parents might be more inclined to approve the marriage so that another man can help pay for their daughter?

And my question is, since most of you I think agree that 9 year olds shoud probably not be having sex, why is that rule not in the religion? Why is it left up to the parents/society to decide when Islam supposedly covers all aspects of life?
Reply

Umar001
12-05-2006, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
And my question is, since most of you I think agree that 9 year olds shoud probably not be having sex, why is that rule not in the religion? Why is it left up to the parents/society to decide when Islam supposedly covers all aspects of life?

I dont know who thinks that.

From my view, the choice of when the girl marries is left to the girl and the parents, why, because every girl is different, for example, Islam from my understanding gave a general view, and then from there each case is left for those who know best, i.e. the girl the parents and so forth.

For example, if there was an 17 year old who had for some reason not got to puberty then it would be immoral for guys to try and sleep with her. I don't think it's the age that's a problem, I think it's the girl, the girl is different in different cases and that is how it should been seen, judged by parents and the girl.

Hope that makes sense.
Reply

chris4336
12-05-2006, 04:02 PM
Sure that makes sense and I see your point. I agree that it should not be based so much on age as physical development.

I think today Islams "general view" on this situation is used to exploit many young woman, would you agree? Shouldn't Islamic law help to protect these girls? I really don't blame the Muslim men who are doing it, they are just trying to do the same as their prophet did. But since its generally the consensus in medical communities that it is harmful to young women to be pregnant at a young age, why didn't Islam do more to prevent this?

Do you see what I mean? Okay, I guess getting to the heart of it, what bothers me most about Islamic law is that it gives men so much opportunity to abuse it. Its the same as the polygamy thing, maybe it was a great blessing in the time of the prophet, but now its a man's responsibility not to abuse it.

That is the same with this ruling. It might have been great for the relationship between the prophet and Aisha. But now a 50 year old man can propose to 9 year old girl becauase he wants to have sex with a virign. And if she is poor and her parents really encourage this marriage she'll agree. Who is being exploited in this situation and what does Islamic law do to stop it? In my mind the first answer is obviously "the young girl" and the second answer is "nothing"
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Umar001
12-05-2006, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Sure that makes sense and I see your point. I agree that it should not be based so much on age as physical development.
Am glad we agree on something :)

Originally Posted by chris4336
I think today Islams "general view" on this situation is used to exploit many young woman, would you agree? Shouldn't Islamic law help to protect these girls?
I agree to an extent. I think the Islamic law does help the young women, I think that the actions put in place are very definetive in helping, i.e. the girl chosing herself and women not being forced into things.

I will say one thing, I remember a passage from the Bible, the concept is something that I do like, it went something like this "John came not eating and drinking and people called him devil possed or a demon, I came eating and drinking and you all cal me a glutton and drunkyard" I don't know if that makes sense, but in honesty, i think that no matter what Islam taught people would come up with question and say things, not that I don't think your view is valid though.


Originally Posted by chris4336
I really don't blame the Muslim men who are doing it, they are just trying to do the same as their prophet did.
Well not neccesarily, there are more women married by the Prophet who were over 16 and 18 why not then do that, I'm not saying their wrong to do what they do, but I also don't think its just about them following the prophet, for if that was the case, then there wouldn't be much problems of the problems you have brought up.

Originally Posted by chris4336
But since its generally the consensus in medical communities that it is harmful to young women to be pregnant at a young age, why didn't Islam do more to prevent this?

Let me ask you, what is the medical community saying is the problem? What is it that happens when women have young pregnencies and is it all women? That is something to look at.

Originally Posted by chris4336
Do you see what I mean? Okay, I guess getting to the heart of it, what bothers me most about Islamic law is that it gives men so much opportunity to abuse it. Its the same as the polygamy thing, maybe it was a great blessing in the time of the prophet, but now its a man's responsibility not to abuse it.
I understand your view, I also have some on the other side:

  • The fact that men cannot marry women unless they agree to the lady's personal set gifts, for example, a young guy wants to get married, but he can't because alot of the women have put the dowry up to such a level that he cannot afford it, it is their right to do so, but poor guy, some may argue that Allah should have set a limit.


  • The fact that women can live off the guy and that they can work or not and do anything they wont as long as it's Islamic, the guy has to provide the wife with the essential and she does not have to put anything into that, she can work and put her money on herself and not worry about anything, some may argue that, "fair enough she shouldn't have to put 50% because she also looks after the kids and wil be pregnent, but for the other times then she should put 25% or something in when she is not pregnent or nursing"


And there are many things like that, I don't think its one sided.



Originally Posted by chris4336
And if she is poor and her parents really encourage this marriage she'll agree. Who is being exploited in this situation and what does Islamic law do to stop it? In my mind the first answer is obviously "the young girl" and the second answer is "nothing"

Let me ask something, if she is poor and the parents only agree because of that, then imagine that the marriage option was not there, what would they do? The answer is found in many streets of africa, you only have to look at the amount of 12 year old prostitues! I rather have my daughter married than a prostitue, now I don't say that that is the only reason for it, but I am glad islam would allow it because I rather that then my daughter on the streets if those were the two only option some people face.
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chris4336
12-05-2006, 04:44 PM
Eeas - These are really great points. I was thinking to myself that someone could argue that the fact that men have to work really hard while women just stay in the house watching TV is oppressive to men.

Awhile back I saw this article in the NY Times and it really had an impact on me:

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/200...IDESHOW_1.html

Now I understand your point that these conditions are the result of poverty. So we should rightly blame the poverty that forced these girls into this situation. Do you feel sorry for these girls at all? And do you wish that maybe Islam had something to protect them?

I guess the issue that I wasn't looking at was that given the option between life on the street and prostitution and marrying an older man at 9, clearly the older man would be the lesser of two evils. We don't often make these decisions in the west, thank god, and they are very hard ones to look at. But are these really the only options God can offer these girls?
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Woodrow
12-05-2006, 05:01 PM
There are many factors to look at. One of the most important is the way marriage is handled in Islam.

A woman can not marry without the permission of her Wali. It is the responsibility of the Wali to act in the best interest of the woman and to protect her from all harm.

It is quite obvious that in todays world it would be a very unusual situation for a wali to come to the conclusion that marriage for a 6 year old would be in her best interest.

It is a wali's duty to learn all that is necessary to protect any woman under his care. If necessary that would also mean learning about the health of women.

The Qur'an is written to serve the people of all times. Allah(swt) knows that there are changes in people from generation to generation but the Qur'an is written so that all rules will apply for all generations.

although it may be permissable for a 6 year old girl to be married, No where is it mandatory and if it will be harmful to the girl then the wali is obligated to stop it.

Health wise people have changed in differrent countries at different time periods. At the time of the prophet the average life span was probably 30 it was essential that people have children as soon as possible if people were to survive as a people. Later that was increased and it was not essential for people to have children at such a young age. Then the dark ages hit and once again life spans were very short and there was only a short time frame for reproduction. Today life spans are very long compared to the past. A womans child bearing years cover a very long time frame. The need to have children at the ealiest possible age is not there.

The rules have not changed, the wali is still there and the wali still has the duty to protect the woman. Today in most areas it is for the benefit of the woman that a wali would seek for his charge to marry at an age older then 6, 9, or whatever. It all depends on what is best for the specific woman.
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soulsociety
12-05-2006, 05:12 PM
You have to question where do you draw the line? Pictures of classes from primary school show women standing in between rows of children, then you find out they are not the teachers but kids! A female colleague at work said she stopped growing when she was 11, she became her adult figure.

In terms of exploitation, it can happen whether she is 9, 19 or 29, families can be blackmailed into giving their daughters away.

Protection? The girl's guardian is meant to be her protector and look after her interests. But this is Earth, not heaven, Islam is not going to send angels down to protect people, so sometimes things aren't perfect and girl's get abused. But in the afterlife, those that escaped punishment on Earth will get what they deserve.

Islam is flexible, it doesn't say woman have to be married by X years, so different cultures can set when they think it is appropriate to marry off their daughters. In some cultures, where there is poverty and disease, life expectancy is like 40, marrying and having kids ASAP is a survival strategy.
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chris4336
12-05-2006, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
It is quite obvious that in todays world it would be a very unusual situation for a wali to come to the conclusion that marriage for a 6 year old would be in her best interest.
I completely agree with this, and I'm glad to see that Muslims do not think its really appropriate for a 6 year old to get married, in today world.

So can I conclude that marriage between a 9 year old and 50 year would can only take place if it is in the girl's best interest (as determined by her wali) and with her approval? And since if there is medical literature that states these pregnancies at a young age can be harmful to woman, the Wali needs to take that into account. However, it was permissible because there might be circumstances (such as shorter life spans and extreme poverty) in which it is in her best interest to be married very young?

Can I ask if the Imam in the community has any say in this matter? For example, if she has father who is abusive, can an Imam "overrule" a wali?

Thank you all for these responses.
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Umar001
12-05-2006, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Eeas - These are really great points. I was thinking to myself that someone could argue that the fact that men have to work really hard while women just stay in the house watching TV is oppressive to men.

I think its a balance, just as peope have been given free will to decide whether they are going to pray or not, also in certain areas we have been give guidance but it is upto us to impliment it.


Originally Posted by chris4336
Awhile back I saw this article in the NY Times and it really had an impact on me:

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/200...IDESHOW_1.html
I was a while back going to post that picture actually. I was going to post it to show something, look:

http://graphics10.nytimes.com/images...ides.650.3.jpg

Ghulam Haider, 11, is to be married to Faiz Mohammed, 40. She had hoped to be a teacher but was forced to quit her classes when she became engaged.

She was forced to quit classes, is that Islamic? I wonder, to me this clearly shows that these men are not acting according to Islam, they could not give two hoots of what Islam allows! Here's more proof, very disturbing!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5541006

Majabin Mohammed, 13, at left, sits with her husband of six months, Mohammed Fazal, 45, his first wife and their child. Village elders advised him to accept Majabin as payment for a gambling debt. New York Times Magazine © 2006

Look, to accept the poor girl as a GAMBLING DEBT, what the! To me this clearly shows that these people are not looking at Islam, further more, these people seem to not care about what Islam teaches.

This totally to me, shows that men will do anything, whether they are muslims or christians or what ever, Islam allows multiple marriage and marriage to young women but it does put restrictions! These peopel are gambling, something fundamentally wrong in Islaam, so to me it totally shows the problem is not Islaam, the problem is the Men.


Originally Posted by chris4336
Now I understand your point that these conditions are the result of poverty. So we should rightly blame the poverty that forced these girls into this situation. Do you feel sorry for these girls at all? And do you wish that maybe Islam had something to protect them?

Islam does protect them, you know about the charity systems in Islam and what the poor are meanto be given, I do feel sorry for young women who are forced into marriages because they cant afford anything else. Of course, that is why I do insha'Allah plan on adopting some of those unfourtunate people, because I do believe that people should not be forced into things, Islam does protect them, but if Islam is not implimented then how can it protect them??

Can we say, 'Oh man I wish Islam would protect them' when the people are not actually practising Islam? If they did they would be protected, again this falls under the free choice of mankind and the fact that this world is a test.


Originally Posted by chris4336
I guess the issue that I wasn't looking at was that given the option between life on the street and prostitution and marrying an older man at 9, clearly the older man would be the lesser of two evils. We don't often make these decisions in the west, thank god, and they are very hard ones to look at. But are these really the only options God can offer these girls?
Again, why does God allow cancer, why is it some people are raped, why are some imprisoned? I mean some of those are things humans don't have control of.

Whether a mother has the choice between her daughter prostituting or being married, is something we as humans can change, we can give the mother a third option, and if we did all as humans impliment Islaam, marriage out of poverty would not happen because of Zakar and Charity, but mankind chooses to GAMBLE, get drunk and turn the blind eye to those suffering.

Remember Chris, who you are and where you are.

Eesa.
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soulsociety
12-05-2006, 05:42 PM
:sl:

Good post.
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chris4336
12-05-2006, 05:53 PM
Also, you guys have to understand, that Non-Muslims people are looking to Islam to provide them some moral guidance. From my personal experience, every single marriage I have read about between a very young girl has involved exploitation of that girl. Every single Muslim I asked in my country said they would not let there 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old man. And then when we read "Yes, Islam does support these marriages, in fact the its an example of the Prophet" its very very hard to understand. Its also very hard for me to come up with a situation where this would be in the girls best interest.

I'm sure there are many reasons why the US and Europe, and many other countries in the world have ages of the consent above 9. There are reasons why Muslims even will agree that marriage at the age of 9 probably is not appropriate in today's society. There are reasons why you probably would have some doubts before you gave our 9 year old daughter away in marriage to a 50 year old. So I think its the responsibility of Muslims to provide explanation of why this is allowed and how the girls will be protected, and NOT the responsibility of NonMuslims to just accept it as something thats permissible, do you see what I mean? Because its cleary not something that NonMuslims and Muslims alike will find acceptable outside of specific circumstances.
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chris4336
12-05-2006, 05:58 PM
Thank you Eesa, that is a wonderful post.
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Umar001
12-05-2006, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Also, you guys have to understand, that Non-Muslims people are looking to Islam to provide them some moral guidance. From my personal experience, every single marriage I have read about between a very young girl has involved exploitation of that girl. Every single Muslim I asked in my country said they would not let there 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old man. And then when we read "Yes, Islam does support these marriages, in fact the its an example of the Prophet" its very very hard to understand. Its also very hard for me to come up with a situation where this would be in the girls best interest.

We do understand, me personally, am not saying that it's something easy to accept, many of us have gone through the same questioning, we didn't just wake up on Sunday as a Muslim and say 'Wife get the 9 year old, we need to marry her off' of course not.



Originally Posted by chris4336
I'm sure there are many reasons why the US and Europe, and many other countries in the world have ages of the consent above 9. There are reasons why Muslims even will agree that marriage at the age of 9 probably is not appropriate in today's society. There are reasons why you probably would have some doubts before you gave our 9 year old daughter away in marriage to a 50 year old. So I think its the responsibility of Muslims to provide explanation of why this is allowed and how the girls will be protected, and NOT the responsibility of NonMuslims to just accept it as something thats permissible, do you see what I mean? Because its cleary not something that NonMuslims and Muslims alike will find acceptable outside of specific circumstances.
You know my view, that we as humans are shaped by our society and influences, what we might feel is wrong, might be seen as ok in other places, because of the upbringing and ingrained views. The example of the acceptance of homosexuality over the years is a good one. When people hear a 50 year old married a 9 year old, what we imagine is simple, its a picture alot of us naturally, because of our society and stuff like that, concuct in our mind. A small fragile girl, not ready for a reletionship, not sure of anything, who would rather be at school and playing with make up and watching CBBC or something, thats our view. But rather, the 9 year old, should be different from this, the mentality is different, they way they would be brought up would be different, marriage would be something stressed significantly, there wouldn't be an education system like we have now, something which indirectly tells us the maturity of our children, all those factors which cause us to picture a 9 year old would be totally different in a different time and place.

Eesa, I hope you do see that we, or at least I do understand your questions and views.
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chris4336
12-05-2006, 06:25 PM
Right you guys certainly are doing that and I really appreciate that.

Do you think that Muslims who believe its wrong for a 9 year old to be married to a 50 year old in modern society are, in a way, going against their Prophet and their religion? Didn't Islam say that it would be applicable for all time?
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Woodrow
12-05-2006, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Right you guys certainly are doing that and I really appreciate that.

Do you think that Muslims who believe its wrong for a 9 year old to be married to a 50 year old in modern society are, in a way, going against their Prophet and their religion? Didn't Islam say that it would be applicable for all time?
There is nothing going against the Prophet(pbuh) and it is applicable for all time. Because something is permitted does not equate with it has to be done.
There is much placed on our duty to protect women. If something will bring harm to a woman that is stated as being haram and that is not permitted under any circumstances. To marry a young girl. The conditions of marriage do require it does not harm the girl. The Wali is responsible to see to that.

All that means is if circumstances arise were it it beneficial for a young girl to marry, it is permitted.

Marriage places some very strict requirements on a Wali and a husband. If those restrictions are followed, it is virtualy impossible for a woman to be harmed by marriage.

But, humans are humans and in every faith you will find those who think they have found loopholes that allow them to use the rules for their own purpose.
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Umar001
12-05-2006, 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Right you guys certainly are doing that and I really appreciate that.

Do you think that Muslims who believe its wrong for a 9 year old to be married to a 50 year old in modern society are, in a way, going against their Prophet and their religion?

No not at all, you see, I remember IbnAbdul Hakim said it, I asked him, would you marry your daughter to a man at so and so age and he said something like 'if it was the prophet i would'

Roughly, that there is the mindstate of alot of Muslims, you see in our times girls at 9 are brought up totally different to the way they were so long ago, although in some countries we can still see the major difference in upbringing of girls compared to the west. It is that difference that causes the girl to mentally mature at different ages.

So these parents and Muslims are not against marrying their daughters off, full stop. They are against marrying their daughters off because of the prevalant conditions.

Now days, most 9 year old are not brought up in a mind state of marriage at a young age, many are influenced by society, the school system is an example which, am sure you agree, plays a part in classifying maturity in alot of cases.

That is one factor of Muslim Parent's outlook.

Another is the fact that most men now days would not marry a young woman, because they are not familier with such costums. Rather, what we see is that people who in general now days are practicising the costum of having a young bride, are in alot of cases not fully practicing.

So those to me are two factors which constitute the Muslim Parent outlook.

If those factors were removed and some others then alot of Muslim Parents should not have problems with it. To sum up, if we had:

  • A girl mentally prepared and brought up to understand that marriage is a normal part of life and not something to be done later on, but rather a blessings which will offer support for her and produce many beautiful things.


And

  • Righteous examples, like the Prophet, or Sahaba, and those were the type of men considered for marriage, i.e. that we did not naturally associate, exploitation, abuse, force, and negative aspects, with a man and a young wife


I believe if those two key factors were here, we'd see alot of beautiful marriages. But at a time when Muslims struggle to stand up and strive on their own, then how can we expect them to carry a family on their back too. :(
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chris4336
12-05-2006, 09:21 PM
Thank you both for your resposes this has really made the situation much easier to swallow. I am very glad that Islam does not believe it is always appropriate for a 9 year old girl to marry a 50 year old man (haha I first typed it the other way around, which is a very interesting idea) and that the girls well being must be considered above all things.

I am still a bit confused as to how Muslims are to distinguish which parts of the life of the Prophet they are to follow (because I thought the answer was everything, regardless of time period), but I will trust that Muslims will not follow the Prophet at the expense of young girls? I guess I need to study more on the concept of Sunnah. I understand somethings are mandatory while others are permissible, but I thought that you got more rewards for doing more things like the prophet did? Or do you only get rewards for things that are recommended by him?
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Umar001
12-05-2006, 09:45 PM
Hi Christina,

Originally Posted by chris4336
Thank you both for your resposes this has really made the situation much easier to swallow. I am very glad that Islam does not believe it is always appropriate for a 9 year old girl to marry a 50 year old man (haha I first typed it the other way around, which is a very interesting idea) and that the girls well being must be considered above all things.

I am still a bit confused as to how Muslims are to distinguish which parts of the life of the Prophet they are to follow (because I thought the answer was everything, regardless of time period), but I will trust that Muslims will not follow the Prophet at the expense of young girls? I guess I need to study more on the concept of Sunnah. I understand somethings are mandatory while others are permissible, but I thought that you got more rewards for doing more things like the prophet did? Or do you only get rewards for things that are recommended by him?

I wanted to break this down into bite size chunks but I couldn't.

You need to see something Chris, you said:


I am still a bit confused as to how Muslims are to distinguish which parts of the life of the Prophet they are to follow (because I thought the answer was everything, regardless of time period)


We follow all of the Prophet, peace be upon him, but you see, following the Prophet would mean that we should follow him properly, so ok he married a young woman, we have to take things into account, would marrying a young woman at the same age who is not mentally mature be following the Prophet? Of course now, because if A'isha was not ready he would not have married her, so in following the Prophet, it is not the age that is what we are meanto follow but the maturity of the person. You see what I'm getting at?


but I will trust that Muslims will not follow the Prophet at the expense of young girls?


If we were to follow the Prophet, peace be upon him, then it would not be possible to do so at the expense of the sister, why? Because the happiness of the sister is in itself following him! So if we marry a sister at 9, but she is not mentally ready, i.e. she is unlike A'isha in the mental maturity, then can it be considered that we are following the Prophet's example? I doubt it, because a component of the Prophet's marriage was the welfare of the wife and the happyness of the wife, so it is impossible for a Muslim to say 'Im following the Prophet' if they are actually doing it at the wife's expense.

I hope you understand the view I'm trying to show.

As for your question about what acts of the Prophet, peace be upon him, we get rewarded for, this is something which has been divided into many different things, like, cultural things, religious commands, and other, ask in the Discover Islam area to get an answer :) Im looking for an article on that now! I read one a while back.
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Muslim Woman
12-06-2006, 01:46 AM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament

Recitation of Sura Fathiha by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia

http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au


&&&

chris4336 : If it is prohibited by man made law shouldn't it have been prohibited by religious law that claims to cover all aspects of one's life?
---man made law & medical concepts change from time to time. So, u can't support any medical concept blindly ' 'cause opposite view may be on the way.



Islam does cover all imp matters. Early marriage is not a must , it's a choice . If parent think their daughter is mature enough , if the proposal comes from a respected person whom they knew since long as a good person , if their daughter does not object , they why should other people object ?



chris4336 : what bothers me most about Islamic law is that it gives men so much opportunity to abuse it.

---marriage can take place when 2 parties agree. It's a must that bride also gives her consent . After puberty , a girl is an adult & it's a must to take her permission. If she objects , marriage can't take place.

if she is poor and her parents really encourage this marriage she'll agree
.

----see above. Forced marriage is not allowed in Islam.


I really don't blame the Muslim men who are doing it, they are just trying to do the same as their prophet did.
-----The Last Prophet (p) was a kind hearted excellent husband . If all Muslim men follow his kindness & justice , Muslim women won't face any kind of problem in this earth.

Once the Last Prophet (p) was very angry with all his wives , then guess what he did ? Normally many husbands beat wife mercilessly ( not only Muslims , in the west it's common ,too ) or scold them in a dirty language .


The last Prophet (p) did not do any of these--- he left home & stayed at the mosque for several days. If Muslim men follow his only this example , i guess , there will be no wife abuse or divorce .


there are more women married by the Prophet who were over 16 and 18 why not then do that.......... if she is poor and the parents only agree because of that, then imagine that the marriage option was not there, what would they do?


-----excellent points bro , Jazak Allah. The Last Prophet (p) spent all his youth with an elderly lady who was a widow with 3 ( minimum ) children.

Chris , can u imagine , most women were treated less than animals at that time . It's the Islam who gave women the status of human being.

By marrying a widow , the last Prophet (p) set an example that widows are not sub-human. Among Hindus , widows can't take part in any marriage ceremony . Unfortunately some Muslims also believe that widows must not touch the new bride ......it's against the teaching of Islam.


Its the same as the polygamy thing,

-----In the west , women share husbands with unlimited illegal partners. Islam allows legal polygamy ( maximum 4 wives ) with strict condition that he must be able to do justice.


Marriage is not for fun only......it's a great responsibility....a huge responsibility specially for men as they are the caretakers of their wives. They have to earn & they must spend on wife..........we ( Muslim wives ) don't have to earn , we are Queen at our homes.....we just give orders ...... i need this , i need that.. etc.


chris , we believe in life hereafter . If any aged man after marrying a young virgin abuses her , he will be accountable on the Last Day in front of God Almighty & it's not a funny matter.
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chris4336
12-06-2006, 02:27 AM
I say that from a Non-Muslim point of view that when I am evaluating Islam, I don't compare it with Christianity and Judiasm. I don't have to pick one of these three religions or any religion at all. So its up to Muslims to convince me that Islam is the way God wants us to live. If you are discussing Islam with a Christian or a Jew that is a different story, but when its with a Non-Muslim in general I think you have to build a stronger base than "Well, its better than in that religion."

The same thing with comparing Islam to the West, because no one is making the claim that Western society is perfect. I think there are some pretty horrible things about Western culture, but just because Islam has a different stance on those issues doesn't necessarily mean I agree with Islam's stance.

For example, in my opinon I think its wrong for a western man to have sex with 9 partners. I also think its wrong for Islam to allow a man to have 4 wives. What I think is right (one man for one woman) was not given as an option.
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Muslim Woman
12-06-2006, 02:30 AM
Salaam

a Muslim woman can divorce her husband ....so , unfortunately if her aged husband does not treat her well , she can go for divorce & re-marry.

Mother Aisha (p) & other wives were given that chance , nobody accepted it. I will try to find the verse no: . it's like that , o prohet , tell ur wives , if they want wealth of this world , then come , let me give u wealth & but if u prefer the life hereafter .......etc.

It was Aisha (p) who first responded that , i prefer the life hereafter. U see , if she was unhappy , surely she could apply her divorce power...she did not do that.

So, don't worry about a happy couple...pl. pray for Muslim women so that our husbands can follow the kindness the Last Prophet (p) showed to his wives.
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Muslim Woman
12-06-2006, 02:36 AM
salaam;

Originally Posted by chris4336
I also think its wrong for Islam to allow a man to have 4 wives. What I think is right (one man for one woman) was not given as an option.

i will write in details Insha Allah later. a quick reply....Dr. Jamal Bawadi expliained polygamy nicely in his article. If a young man's wife has as accident or sick & she can't perform her duty as a wife ( i guess , i don't have to explain what is it ) , then a non-Muslim man has these options.

1.divorce her
2. live like an unmarried man
3. go for adultery.

Islam gives him & her a chance to live with honour. Husband does not need to divorce his sick/injured wife...but he can re-marry & can enjoy a healthy life. He does not need to neglect his wife or deprive himself .


polygamy is an option for those men who need to do that ....it's not a must.
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chris4336
12-06-2006, 02:37 AM
Yes, I don't deny that Aisha was a very happy woman, my concern was what is being done to protect very young girls from getting into a situation with an older man where they might not be as happily married, and might actually be harmed, but this was very fully explained to me because of the protection a Wali is expected to offer, and that such a marriage should never take place if it is not in the girl's best interest.

And yes, I will certainly pray that Muslim women can find such kindness. Please pray for rme that I will be guided to the truth.
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chris4336
12-06-2006, 02:40 AM
Thanks for the response, there was just a huge thread I started on polygamy on the Marriage section of the board, so I have learned a lot.

I guess my statement is not true, I think its okay to allow four wives, because like you said there might be circumstances that warrant it. I think its wrong to do it without the consent of the first wife, because I see this as a direct contradiction to the Quranic verses which say "Treat your women with kindness." But this is all debated in like 100 threads over on the marriage board.
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Umar001
12-06-2006, 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Thanks for the response, there was just a huge thread I started on polygamy on the Marriage section of the board, so I have learned a lot.

I guess my statement is not true, I think its okay to allow four wives, because like you said there might be circumstances that warrant it. I think its wrong to do it without the consent of the first wife, because I see this as a direct contradiction to the Quranic verses which say "Treat your women with kindness." But this is all debated in like 100 threads over on the marriage board.
;D ;D ;D ;D

Do you agree to some extent though Chris that Islam has provided some guidance, might not be compulsry but guidance to show that man should be kind and that man should make it easy on the wife?
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Skillganon
12-06-2006, 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by chris4336
I say that from a Non-Muslim point of view that when I am evaluating Islam, I don't compare it with Christianity and Judiasm. I don't have to pick one of these three religions or any religion at all. So its up to Muslims to convince me that Islam is the way God wants us to live. If you are discussing Islam with a Christian or a Jew that is a different story, but when its with a Non-Muslim in general I think you have to build a stronger base than "Well, its better than in that religion."

The same thing with comparing Islam to the West, because no one is making the claim that Western society is perfect. I think there are some pretty horrible things about Western culture, but just because Islam has a different stance on those issues doesn't necessarily mean I agree with Islam's stance.
Good advice. To people who wan't to teach Islam. Something in the past I failed to notice.


For example, in my opinon I think its wrong for a western man to have sex with 9 partners. I also think its wrong for Islam to allow a man to have 4 wives. What I think is right (one man for one woman) was not given as an option.
I think the problem really arises because their was no limit to how many people can marry.

1. When Islam came it has limited to 4.

2. In recent time most goverment in the world has limited it to 1 mariiage at a time.

So coming into one and thinking that Islam allow's polygamy, people fail to see that Islam aslo promote and allow monogomy.

Their is no seriouse answer to the 4 wives limitation. However it does not make Islam wrong or the Quran wrong.

Even if one applies the statistic of 1:1 ratio of men to women. It only comlpicates the matter & not an argument, because it's a limit and not an obligation to marry 4.

Their is boundaries muslim can't cross, like to marry someone without their consent, forcefully.

Their is may cultural things going around, and this is often confused with Islam. So most of the time the lay muslim is doing it for cultural reason, and inthe outwards to a foreigner it looks like he is doing it because of Islam.

I hope to it help's.

I do undertand that Aisha's marriage and the 4 wive thing and another verse in the Quran(which I am not going to mention here) is the main issue that comes up quite often.

Peace.

Skill.
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chris4336
12-06-2006, 03:16 AM
I think Islam shows a tremendous amount of both compulsion and guidance to show a man that he must be kind to women. I believe you that Islam teaches you should make it easy on a wife, but I think that many scholars and Muslim men might choose to emphasize different aspects of the religion.
I think Islam does treat women better than the current system we have in the west (whatever that system is).

But there are still some aspects about it that I just don't like. Its hard to make the distinction: Is the problem the religion or the person following it?
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chris4336
12-06-2006, 03:21 AM
Skill - Haha NOOOO not the beating verse. To me one of the great mysteries of the Arabic language is how a word can mean both "Beat them" and "Hit them lightly with a toothbrush" but I will have to trust you guys on that one..
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Skillganon
12-06-2006, 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by chris4336
I think Islam shows a tremendous amount of both compulsion and guidance to show a man that he must be kind to women. I believe you that Islam teaches you should make it easy on a wife, but I think that many scholars and Muslim men might choose to emphasize different aspects of the religion.
I think Islam does treat women better than the current system we have in the west (whatever that system is).

But there are still some aspects about it that I just don't like. Its hard to make the distinction: Is the problem the religion or the person following it?

Sometime it is a matter of perception. So most likely people see it from the perception of the sorrounding/teaching they been bought up in and compare it with Islam.
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*charisma*
12-06-2006, 03:27 AM
Hey,

Sorry if this was mentioned before, I read most replies, and skimmed through others..

Every single Muslim I asked in my country said they would not let there 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old man. And then when we read "Yes, Islam does support these marriages, in fact the its an example of the Prophet" its very very hard to understand. Its also very hard for me to come up with a situation where this would be in the girls best interest.
You have to realize that there are two types of societies: the type we are used to living in and the type that we can never relate to. Personally, I would never allow my daughter to marry someone of that much older in age while she is that young. However, in Islam this isn't haram (forbidden)at all as long as it complies with the boundries of Islamic teachings. During the Prophet's time (pbuh) and those before him, it wasn't uncommon to find girl's marrying at a very young age. Now, because we can't relate and also because marriage seems to be dispersing in this (western) society, it goes against many of our morals as social beings. Because Islam hasn't been changed (maybe ever so slightly, but not much) ever since it was relevated to the world, it doesn't comply with the west's depiction of modernism.

I'm sure there are many reasons why the US and Europe, and many other countries in the world have ages of the consent above 9. There are reasons why Muslims even will agree that marriage at the age of 9 probably is not appropriate in today's society. There are reasons why you probably would have some doubts before you gave our 9 year old daughter away in marriage to a 50 year old.
I completely agree.

So I think its the responsibility of Muslims to provide explanation of why this is allowed and how the girls will be protected, and NOT the responsibility of NonMuslims to just accept it as something thats permissible, do you see what I mean? Because its cleary not something that NonMuslims and Muslims alike will find acceptable outside of specific circumstances.
While that is true, (after all it is our beliefs) I think it depends on who you ask. For example, we are educated people alhemdulilah, because of our knowledge about our own religion IF we were to marry our daughters at a young age, it would be for a valid reason inshallah. If someone were to be ignorant of Islam, yet still claim to be Muslim or not be practicing, etc, etc. they might do it for thier own benefits or reasons out of the teachings of Islam, allahu a'lem (only allah knows) and try to justify their reasonings with that of religion by saying it is permissible because the Prophet (pbuh) did it. This still would not make it valid.

Their true reasonings, however, could be that they were probably illiterate and couldn't read up on ahadith and Quran so they didn't know any better, or that they were infact living in destitution in which they had to marry their daughters to live with someone that could support them rather than having them live in a terrible state of poverty. This is probably something we couldn't relate to. Any parent, i think, would go to that extent if they couldn't feed their own daughters, just through paternal instinct.

Just like bro Hab (I can call him that, right?) said, many of these problems are in the corrupted people, not Islam.

May allah guide the misguided ameen

peace
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-06-2006, 06:12 AM
The previous thread had been closed as much of the material was being repeated and people were not reading the thread which tends to happen with a thread of that length and that controversy. For this reason, I had mentioned that if someone felt they had new material to add to the thread, to pm me. What one percieves to be new material isn't always the case and this is something that can be quickly pointed out via pm before it spawns a multipage discussion, which is identical in content to the previous discussion.

I'm going to go through the different questions raised in this thread in a concise fashion leaving out the off-topic comments with regard to polygamy and domestic violence which have already been answered in other threads on the forum.
Originally Posted by chris4336
In the last thread Ansar challenged those who think sexual relations for a girl of the age of 9 is wrong to provide medical evidence.
If you wish to respond to another member you should quote exactly what they said so that members can see if you have actually provided a potent response to their assertions or if you have misquoted them entirely. As it turns out, you have falsely attributed to me something I never said. In fact, I specifically made the following statments in that thread:
"Again, this is probably the most obvious strawmen visible. I am not saying it is okay for any man to marry any nine year old girl, I am specifically speaking about Aisha rd."

"I'm not speaking about anyone, I am speaking about the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and Aisha - I clarified this in my last post."
So the issue here is whether the marriage of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh to A'ishah was harmful and immoral, NOT whether early marriages in other societies could be classified as such. What is confirmed is that A'ishah was mature and post-pubescent, her marriage to the Prophet was acceptable by cultural norms, she did not bear children which is something God knew before He commanded the Prophet to marry her, and A'ishah did not suffer any harm. Much to the contrary, she lived a very outspoken and public life as a religious scholar and leading figure and she always had the best things to say about the Prophet Muhammad saws.

The purpose in the marriage was mentioned in the thread:
As for the purpose of this marriage, it was purely for sociopolitical reason. The Prophet’s main concern was the future of Islam. He was interested in strengthening the Muslims by all bonds. This also explains the reason why he married the daughter of `Umar, his Second Successor. It was by his marriage to Juwayriyyah that he gained the support for Islam of the whole clan of Bani Al-Mustaliq and their allied tribes. It was through his marriage to Safiyyah that he neutralized a great section of the hostile Jews of Arabia. By accepting Mariya, the Copt from Egypt, as his wife, he formed a political alliance with a king of great magnitude. So his marriage to `Aisha could never be of anything save cementing his relation with Abu Bakr, `Aisha’s father. (SOURCE)
Q: What about the example the Prophet set?

The absurd issue here is how when people speak about the example of the Prophet they focus only on his marriage to A'ishah! What about all his other marriages? Let us look at a basic table:

Name of Bride/----------------/ Age at marriage/-------------/ Comments
Khadija bin Khuwailid /---------------/ 40 /-------------------/twice widowed before
Sawda bint Zam'ah /-------------------/ 50 /-------------------------------/ widow
Aisha bint Abi Bakr /------------------/ 9 /-----------/ Started living with the prophet at the age of 9.
Hafsa bint Umar /---------------------/ 22 /-------------------/ widow
Zaynab bint Khuzaimah /-----------/ 30 /--------------------/
Umm Salamah bint A.U. /-----------/ 26 /--------------------/ widow
Zaynab bint Jahsh /------------------/ 38 /--------------------/ widow
Juwayriyyah bint Harith /------------/ 20 /--------------------/ widow
Umm Habiba bint A.S. /------------/ 36 /--------------------/ widow
Safiyyah bint Huyay /----------------/ 17 /--------------------/ widow
Maymuna bint Harith /-------------/ 36 /--------------------/ widow

The majority of the Prophet's wives were middle-aged widows!

Q: But doesn't the prophet's example mean that all muslims should marry at that age?

Such a question betrays a gross misunderstanding of the most basic principles in Islamic jurisprudence. I noticed a considerable amount of ignorance in this regard, as expressed in statements like:
I think it would be foolish to say that Muslims men in the world are not using this rule because of their desires
Note the erroneous word highlighted above. The truth of this matter is that just because an action is done by the Prophet pbuh does not make it a part of the religion. If the Prophet ordered others to do it, then it would acquire the status of wâjib, or obligatory. If he did not order us to do it but he recommended it or promised a reward for it, then it would acquire the religious ruling of mustahab or recommended. But other actions like riding a camel or wearing a turban or various cultural practices do not have religious significance. It is only what the prophet commands or recomments. But in this case, we see neither!! In fact, not only is there no recommendation at all in Islam to marry at such an age, but it is forbidden if there is any risk of danger associated with the marriage.

I would quote the following fatwa from Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azîz ibn Ahmad Ad-Durayhim:
As for the possible negative consequences of a man of such a mature age marrying such a young girl, it is patently obvious. The discrepancies in their capabilities, both physically and mentally, could bring about serious differences between the two of them that could lead to the failure of the marriage. This is something that has been seen and is well understood.

Therefore, I would not recommend such a marriage nor would I encourage it.

Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm."

It can also be seen in the very conduct of the Prophet (peace be upon him). He did not consummate his marriage with 'A’ishah for a number of years on account of her young age.
And from the fatwâ committee supervised by Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî we note:
The lawfulness of consummating a marriage at such an age is contingent on the maturity of the girl and that no harm would come to her.
So if any harm would come from it, then it is unlawful i.e. harâm.


Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said,

لا ضرر ولا ضر
"There is to be no harming, nor reciprocating of harm." (Musnad Ahmad, authenticated by Al-Albânî)

Yes, I don't deny that Aisha was a very happy woman, my concern was what is being done to protect very young girls from getting into a situation with an older man where they might not be as happily married, and might actually be harmed, but this was very fully explained to me because of the protection a Wali is expected to offer, and that such a marriage should never take place if it is not in the girl's best interest.
Then the issue is resolved.
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