The Marriage of Aisha to the Prophet(PBUH)

[Umu 'Isa]

jazakhAllah khair brother nicely said

 

[Taalib-e-'Ilm]

Brother Bin Dereken, i must say that after each post of yours regarding this topic, u shuld read the first kalima, coz i think to accuse the prophet of somehting which he didn't do is called slandering, ur out of Islam mate if u have any doubts abt the prophet. Besides, many ppl on the forum have said and i'll tell u again, that our beloved prophet saw in his dreams that Angel Jibraieel comes down and shows the prophet this women (Aisha) and tells the prophet that he should marry this women.
Notice that jibra'il only comes through the will of Allah, so IF ALLAH DIDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THIS MARRIAGE, THAN Y SHULD WE, ALLAH KNOWS MORE THAN US!!!!!

 

[sapphire]

yup your rite bro.....i think your up for a loosing battle Bin Dereken...may Allah help us all...and guide thoes who need guidance and help the rest to stay on the straight path...Ameen....

 

[bin direnken]

I'm not going to argue with someone who is obviously intellectually "challenged" when speaking medically, but feel it my obligation to correct your "fact" that "average" girls reach puberty by the first day of their ninth birthday. In reality, the "average" age of a young girls first menses is between the ages of twelve and fourteen, and not post second grade and mid-Barbies.

Not that early menses cannot happen earlier, I am just using this as an "average" for the purposes described on this message board. And although early menses is one aspect of quantifying the passing into maturity, the consensus amongst properly trained physicians, (and not website wannabe's) is that, physiologically, girls do not complete puberty until the "average" age of eighteen.

Hence, it's in the best interests of societies elders (who do know better) to make the age of eighteen a hallmark of sorts when discussing marriage and sexual readiness for the safety of our youth.

At least that is the basis for human behavior in civilized societies.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I'm not going to argue with someone who is obviously intellectually "challenged" when speaking medically

Your insults only expose your own insecurity. As for medical knowledge, I have been the one quoting from medical encyclopedias and exposing your blunders and inaccurate statements.

but feel it my obligation to correct your "fact" that "average" girls reach puberty by the first day of their ninth birthday.

Who said this?! YOU DID! So because you are unable to refute my words you have to put your words in my mouth and then respond to them? This is nonsense. You have clearly failed to respond to the challenge I provided:

Prove that Aisha could not have been post-pubescent when she consummated her marriage with the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. No more off-topic rants will be tolerated; they will be deleted.

In reality, the "average" age of a young girls first menses is between the ages of twelve and fourteen, and not post second grade and mid-Barbies.

I think I will take the words of the medical encyclopedia over yours when it says:

Puberty normally occurs between 13 and 15 years old in boys, and between 9 and 16 years old in girls.​

Hence, there is no reason why Aisha could not have attained puberty before she consummated her marriage with the Prophet.

Not that early menses cannot happen earlier, I am just using this as an "average" for the purposes described on this message board. And although early menses is one aspect of quantifying the passing into maturity, the consensus amongst properly trained physicians, (and not website wannabe's) is that, physiologically, girls do not complete puberty until the "average" age of eighteen.

Even if that was true (which it isn't), it still doesn't refute my point, because we're talking about Aisha rd, not other girls. Can you prove to me that Aisha did not reach puberty until eighteen? Of course not!

Besides, I already refuted your claim with authentic medical references. According to Howard and Leppert's Primary Care for Women, the average age of completion of puberty for girls in the west is 12-15, not 18 like you falsely claimed. Also, an assesment of pubertal development in egyptian girls noted that the variety of ages at which puberty is achieved acrossd the world "can be attributed to various genetic, racial, geographical, nutritional, and secular trend factors" (J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;18(6):577-84.). Thus, in the hot desert climate of Arabia it was very common for girls to be married so early. Proof? Aisha was already engaged to someone else before she married the Prophet Muhammad pbuh!

Hence, it's in the best interests of societies elders (who do know better) to make the age of eighteen a hallmark of sorts when discussing marriage and sexual readiness for the safety of our youth.

The vast majority of western countries do not even meet this limit! In the UK, England and Wales have set the age of consent at sixteen. Here are the US states that have the age of consent at sixteen:

Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, Alabama​

And in New Hampshire, females may be married at the age of 13 if they have parental consent.

And countries like Japan, South Korea and Spain have the age at 13, while Mexico and the province of Quebec in Canada have said 12!

And even if we sent the age at 18, there still may be females who are not mature enough at this age. The reality is that the limit varies from individual to individual, and it must be determined according tot he symptoms of puberty.

At least that is the basis for human behavior in civilized societies.

Perhaps the US and UK are not civilized?

Lastly, the issue under discussion here is not what the age of marriage should be set to, for indeed, for practical purposes it is easiest for countries to set an age limit. But the issue under discussion here is the marriage of Prophet Muhammad pbuh to Aisha rd, and whether that marriage was immoral or inappropriate. As I have clearly demonstrated from authentic sources, the answer is a resounding "NO!".

Regards

 

[bin direnken]

Many girls are engaged before they even leave their mothers womb in some backwards countries so I do not understand your angle. If Aisha was engaged to someone else before the prophet, it means nothing.

And Ansar, I could certainly spend time acquiring and quoting the facts directly from "medical encyclopedia's" as you have suggested but I do not see the point in that. This may surprise you, but science is not a practice that is based on "facts", it is based on education, intuition and experience. As a board certified physicians assistant, I choose to write based on my own professional knowledge and work history. That is what people pay me for, Sir.

Salaam

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Many girls are engaged before they even leave their mothers womb in some backwards countries so I do not understand your angle.

Red-herring. This has nothing to do with the topic.

If Aisha was engaged to someone else before the prophet, it means nothing.

Go back and read what I said in context. You're very good at revealing how little of my post you understood.

And Ansar, I could certainly spend time acquiring and quoting the facts directly from "medical encyclopedia's" as you have suggested but I do not see the point in that.

You seem to see the point in very little, considering how most of your posts in this thread have been pointless.

This may surprise you, but science is not a practice that is based on "facts", it is based on education, intuition and experience.

Science is not a practice. PERIOD. Please research the definition of science before attempting to pose as an authority on it.

As a board certified physicians assistant, I choose to write based on my own professional knowledge and work history. That is what people pay me for, Sir.

Feigning knowledge doesn't work in a debate. Your arguments are fallacious. Refute my points with evidence, don't just say, "Trust me, i know what I'm talking about"!

Regards

 

[bin direnken]

Sorry, I am unable to respond to your private message until I've posted 50 posts. So I"m pasting my response to you below.

I am using "intelligence" Ansar. Only a fool would claim to know everything simply because he saw it in print. Even smart humans are fallible and medical journals are constantly being revised.

Ansar, knowledge doesn't only come from books. So be wise and use your own God given judgment when evaluating the written word.

I was just thinking and had to come back. If you want to watch some real science in action, let's do our own little experiment here and post some meaningful "hard data" to ease your concern over my seemingly "lack of".

Since scientific "fact" is generally accepted to be based on a 90 percent consensus, let's subject Aisha and other child brides to the test.

Let's randomly ask a significant number of people on the streets if it's okay for fifty-four year old men to have sexual relations with nine year old prepubescents. Let's ask if most have any doubts that a nine year old is not yet sexually and emotionally mature. If even fifteen percent say "yes" (allowing room for error) I will gladly apologize for my lack of common sense.

That's better than any data that I could pull out of the most up to date science publications.

Silly, isn't it?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I am using "intelligence" Ansar. Only a fool would claim to know everything simply because he saw it in print. Even smart humans are fallible and medical journals are constantly being revised.

It is foolish to back up claims with medical journals but it isn't foolish to speak without evidence?!

I was just thinking and had to come back. If you want to watch some real science in action, let's do our own little experiment here and post some meaningful "hard data" to ease your concern over my seemingly "lack of".

Since scientific "fact" is generally accepted to be based on a 90 percent consensus, let's subject Aisha and other child brides to the test.

Let's randomly ask a significant number of people on the streets if it's okay for fifty-four year old men to have sexual relations with nine year old prepubescents. Let's ask if most have any doubts that a nine year old is not yet sexually and emotionally mature. If even fifteen percent say "yes" (allowing room for error) I will gladly apologize for my lack of common sense.

Again, this is probably the most obvious strawmen visible. I am not saying it is okay for any man to marry any nine year old girl, I am specifically speaking about Aisha rd. Stick to the topic, if you can.

That's better than any data that I could pull out of the most up to date science publications.

No it isn't. They have surveys of people off the street which prove that most people don't even know the names of countries around the world. We don't base oour conclusions on the whims and ignorance of the mases but on specific evidence, historical data.

Its quite clear that you haven't been able to follow the warning I gave. Thanks for your time here.

 

[Malsidabym]

I am not going to reopen the debate about puberty, let us pretend that it was settled by the last few exchanges. I had two questions, but This thread answered one. The second question is, if a very similiar situation were at hand today, with a 54 year old man(not the prophet), and a nine year old girl, would it be ok now? Assume that the girl has reached puberty and is also nine. Would it be ok for them to have sexual relations? Also, would your opinion be any different if it was your daughter or sister? Please for the sake of the question assume that the situation is the same, and not offer reasons why it could not be the same. (My post was redirected here by a moderator)

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi malsidab,

I am not going to reopen the debate about puberty, let us pretend that it was settled by the last few exchanges. I had two questions, but This thread answered one.

For the sake of clarity I was just curious as to which question you felt this thread answered.

The second question is, if a very similiar situation were at hand today, with a 54 year old man(not the prophet), and a nine year old girl, would it be ok now?

The problem with this kind of argument, and I've seen it many times before, is that we are not discussing about people in general but about the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and Aisha rd, and whether their marriage was acceptable.

But to answer your question, let us further examine the situation you have proposed. In the situation you mention the only point that is significant is the age of the girl. The age of the man is not as important. I would rather a girl marries a kind and loving man who is several years older than her, than marry an abusive man who is closer to her in age. So the only question that is important here is whether the girl has reached puberty and if she is ready to be married her consent is given. In that time in arabia, girls reached puberty earlier and it was customary for them to be married off earlier as well:

- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.

- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.

- Hisham ibn `Urwa himself (whom the objector claims to know enough to forward the most barefaced judgments on his reliability) married Fatima bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh Baghdad).

- Our liege-lord `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and Fatima at a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and others.

Also, Islamic marriages are not conducted in privacy but are open to the public. Social standards have a role in what age is considered appropriate for the girl to marry.

Regards

 

[- Qatada -]

First of all, you have to realise that society has changed over the times. This means - marriages like these don't happen that often within todays norm.

Therefore, yeah it is permissible for a marriage like this to exist (within islam) even in todays society, but it doesn't really happen that much.


I dont know if bro Ansar has mentioned this; but why should it be such a big deal if this was the norm of the arabian culture, and even in other parts of the world? Why didn't any of the anti-islamists at the time of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) attack him on his marriage?

Culture is different, and religion is different. Islam allows culture, as long as it doesn't contradict islam. Therefore - if a person is marrying a woman (because islamically, a person on their periods/wetdreams is an adult) then there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Pinkie]

I don't know if anyone brought this up or not but during the time of Rasul Allah (saw), the life expectancy was not great. It was normal to get married at an early age.

 

[Christian_dove]

I'm sure we can always re-defined any word so that it would fit any individual but that isn't going to change anything. The fact is that paedophilia is medically recognized as a psychosexual disorder with specific symptoms that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh simply doesn’t fit. He didn’t marry Aisha because of an attraction towards children, on the contrary, as the Islamonline teams notes:

As for the purpose of this marriage, it was purely for sociopolitical reason. The Prophet’s main concern was the future of Islam. He was interested in strengthening the Muslims by all bonds.
​

It seems the good prophet didn't realize what future generations would think about it, then? If he had lived in a modern society he would have been arrested and imprisoned. And thank God for that. Paedophilia is disgusting, and if the marriage was for "sociopolitical" reasons, why doesn't this come clear out of the story? Saying it was for sociopolitical reasons.. Well, that's just like your opinion, man... Not facts. Having said that, I am not saying that it couldn't be the case.

You as a non-muslim consider that Aisha was a child. She was nine years old when she came to live with the Prophet. What happened at the age of nine? She had her menses. According to Islamic law she is now considered a young women. And this is the natural dividing line between a child and a women. In the west if you look at the numbers at what age can men and women have consensual sex. In the UK it is 16 for heterosexual and for homosexual it is eighteen. You go to Ireland, it’s seventeen. You go to Germany, it’s sixteen. You go to France, it’s fifteen. Go to Italy, it’s fourteen. Go to Holland, it’s twelve. What in England is considered to be paedophilia in Holland is considered to be consensual sex. So their numbers are not based on any tangible dividing point. These numbers have just evolved or have been modified from cultural practices and norms. These figures were derived from a Newsweek article.

So what you are saying is that having sex with a 9 year old is perfectly okay as long as she has had her first period?

…So on one hand, the argument that she was a child falls because they don’t have an accurate point of deciding who’s a child and who’s not.

That is a pretty desperate thing to say in order to protect your faith. Any person with an adequate intellectual capasity is clearly able to see the difference between an adult and a 9 year old child. But if someone has a problem with this, here is the definition from Wikipedia:

Child development is the study or examination of processes and mechanisms that operate during the physical and mental development of an infant into an adult.

* Zygote, the point of Conception, fertilization
* Embryo; in the later stages also called fetus
* Birth
* Child
o Infant (baby, newborn) (0-1.5)
o Toddler (1.5-4)
o Primary school age (also called prepubescence) (4-12)
+ Elementary school age (also called middle childhood) (4-8)
+ Preadolescence (preteen, or late childhood. The child in this and the previous phase are called schoolchild (schoolboy or schoolgirl), when still of primary school age.) (9-12)
* Adolescence and puberty (teenage) (13-19)
* Young adult (16-25)
* Adult (16-21 or older; exact minimum age may vary)

So to categories Prophet Muhammad pbuh with a label describing sexual predators with a psychosexual disorder is simply ludicrous. Not only does Prophet Muhammad pbuh not fit the description of paedophilia, but the historical fact that Aisha attained puberty before she moved in with the Prophet saws refutes the charge entirely.

No, it doesn't. You may not like to hear this, but she was still a child and that is a fact that wont change no matter what you claim. You can ask any educated doctor and he will tell you the truth.

You're using a two-step method of trying to classify the Prophet Muhammad pbuh as immoral. First by adjusting the definition of paedophilia so that it fits him, and then sliding him back to be categorised amongst paedophiles whom we all regard as immoral.

Personally, I am not saying that Muhammad had sex with this girl at all. Maybe he was a wise man and only married here for sociopolitial reasons. However, that doesn't change the fact that you claim a 9 year old girl is a woman as long as she is having her periods. I have more problems with your definition of a woman than the story about Muhammad and his young wife...

A 9 year old girl is by no means ready to give birth to a child, even if she is capable of becoming pregnant. Her body isn't fully developed and neither is her mind.

Now, you may ban me for this, but your claims are so unreasonable I just couldn't resist refuting them.​

 

[Christian_dove]

But to answer your question, let us further examine the situation you have proposed. In the situation you mention the only point that is significant is the age of the girl. The age of the man is not as important. I would rather a girl marries a kind and loving man who is several years older than her, than marry an abusive man who is closer to her in age. So the only question that is important here is whether the girl has reached puberty and if she is ready to be married her consent is given.
Regards

So the answer is yes? A 9 year old can marry and have sex with someone whos 54? Actually I am pretty shocked at your statements, Ansar Al-'Adl. I haven't discussed these matters with muslims before but now I am really concerned as to what is going on amongst some of you..

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It seems the good prophet didn't realize what future generations would think about it, then? If he had lived in a modern society he would have been arrested and imprisoned.

I've already refuted this:

The vast majority of western countries do not even meet this limit! In the UK, England and Wales have set the age of consent at sixteen. Here are the US states that have the age of consent at sixteen:

Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, Alabama​

And in New Hampshire, females may be married at the age of 13 if they have parental consent.

And countries like Japan, South Korea and Spain have the age at 13, while Mexico and the province of Quebec in Canada have said 12!

And even if we sent the age at 18, there still may be females who are not mature enough at this age. The reality is that the limit varies from individual to individual, and it must be determined according tot he symptoms of puberty.

So what you are saying is that having sex with a 9 year old is perfectly okay as long as she has had her first period?

1. I'm not speaking about anyone, I am speaking about the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and Aisha - I clarified this in my last post.
2. I quoted evidence from medical encyclopedia which clearly states that a) girls can reach puberty at the age of nine and b) the rate of maturity differs depending on different countries and climate.

Even though I should have to reapet myself, here is another quotation:

In healthy girls living in a temperate climate, the earliest sign of puberty occurs at a mean age of 10.6 years (standard deviation of 1.2 years), whereas, in boys, testicular growth begins at a mean age of 11.8, with a standard deviation of one year. The average age of menstruation is 13.5 years (range, 9–17 years). (Britannica 75999)​

No, it doesn't. You may not like to hear this, but she was still a child and that is a fact that wont change no matter what you claim. You can ask any educated doctor and he will tell you the truth.

I already have. All medical professionals confirm that in the Arabian climate, girls matured much earlier and it was customary for them to be married off early. Even in the west, many countries used to have the age of consent at nine years or lower.

A 9 year old girl is by no means ready to give birth to a child, even if she is capable of becoming pregnant. Her body isn't fully developed and neither is her mind.

This actually quite easily refuted by ACTUAL CASE where a nine year old girl gave birth to a healthy child - see the appendix in this article:
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/index.php/articles/the-young-marriage-of-aishah

See also the evidence that it was customary for women to be married at this age in arabia, which I posted here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/178382-post52.html

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Do you have a problem with a girl who has attained puberty and is medically known to be able to birth, getting married? Please answer this question. What is the difference if a 20 year old girl marries a 30 year old man or a 40 year old man?

 

[Halima]

So the answer is yes? A 9 year old can marry and have sex with someone whos 54? Actually I am pretty shocked at your statements, Ansar Al-'Adl. I haven't discussed these matters with muslims before but now I am really concerned as to what is going on amongst some of you..

Girls mature faster then men 'scientifically proven'

It doesnt make any difference if a 9 year old girl that has reached puberty to have sex with a 54 year old guy then a 25 year old girl to have sex with a 54 year old guy. There is no difference whatsoever.

How do you know that Prophet Muhammed(saw) had sex with Aisha immediately after they got married? Presumptions like these are lead to false perceptions about a topic as serious as this. This was all the way back in the 7th century. Back then, you had kings and queens from the royal dynasty marry someone that was not even 11 years old. Again in the Quran, it states that once a girl hits puberty then it is liable for her to marry. The Quran has not particulary stated which age a girl could hit pubety but I hope that you get the picture. Today girls hit puberty from 9-16 years old. Thousands of years ago It was normal for a girl to have hit puberty at the age of 16 years. I am quite certain it doesn't state the age when Aisha has hit pubert in the Quran. When prophet Muhammed (saw) married Aisha he probably waited a few years from the age of 9 years old to 12 years old to have sex with her. who knows?

 

[Christian_dove]

How do you know that Prophet Muhammed(saw) had sex with Aisha immediately after they got married? Presumptions like these are lead to false perceptions about a topic as serious as this.

Thank you for your reply. I wasn't saying that he did have sex with her, I haven't seen proof of that. I just think that someone at the age of 9 is too young to have sex...

 

[Halima]

Peace.

Thank you for your reply. I wasn't saying that he did have sex with her, I haven't seen proof of that. I just think that someone at the age of 9 is too young to have sex...

Yep I agree with you. Nine years old indeed is a pretty young age to have sex..but there are numerous cases when a girl reaches puberty at that age in the link that Brother Ansar has provided. However, I do see today in the modern world girls having sex at the age of 9 years old. If they can do it in this soceity, what is so phenomenal about doing it back during the Prophet's time? Of course the Prophet was married but today in the modern world how often do you see a 9 year old girl married compared to having sex out of wed lock? The numbers surely do vary. This day and age you see 9 year old girls being prostitues that are bound to get viral diseases but when you hear the Prophet Married to a 9 year old girl..you flip and why is that? Most of the people today are so afraid of peodhiles and rapists lurking around but when a man like the Prophet Muhammed(saw) choose to MARRY a 9 year old girl you they think that is absurd and may I ask why is that?