Alleged Affirmations of Scientifically Accurate Verses

format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin

Out of curiosity, what would you choose, if you could make up your own option?

I don't know, it isn't the sort of question that crossed my mind.. for me it was, is there a God, YES/NO, once I have determined which of the two, it was, I moved on to which religion.. I didn't stick with any ideologies (Buddhism, Shintoism, Janism etc) you get the pic.. I stuck with Abrahamic faiths, and out of that, it was down to Judaism or Islam, and Islam made the most sense.. Yes there was a time in my life when I didn't pray/fast or believed in anything, I believe it is natural for every human to question...

It was more active reading on my part than the scientific miracles, although when you read them and they make sense, it is an added bonus...

It was more a case of where was the author addressing me.. and this is more a personal experience, every time I had a question, not two or three days later it was answered therein in the Quran... I can't say it will work out that way for you... it is an inside willingness to do something...

for instance when I decided to study science, I took the appropriate steps, find best programs, best schools, where I could personally grow, and what suited me.. I know science doesn't change from one institution to the next.. it was a matter of where best I can cultivate my talents.... It was in me to be who I am today.. it was just a matter of finding which route suited me best... I had to weed out what didn't work in order that I may achieve what does work...

Great, I don't see where I've stated otherwise.

Well the fact that you narrowed it down to two options, is sort of a cul de sac?

Great! That's wonderful. I would like to find out what they're thinking. There's obviously something that they have found that I have yet to discover. Why keep it bottled up? Share with the infidels and maybe they'll save a few souls.

I don't think it is a matter of saving anyone really or converting the infidels.. I mean has that ever worked? it is a matter of your own heart, You have to want it.. read my very first reply on this very post.. You can have a million glossy books, with a bazillion endorsement from heavy weights but it simply doesn't work for you... Not everyone can be Muslim.. It is something you have to want to attain... for every opinion you've out there, there is one contradicting it.. even in science, you've multiple theories competing with each other.. You personally have to sort and intellectualize through it.... You can't force your own track of thoughts on someone, any more than they can impose theirs on you... The forum really is a prime example of that? How many times do atheists post talk origins, to which I post a counter rebuttal by another leading scientist of the impossibilities that lie therein? The best most people do when cornered is go for the credibility of someone.. but for the most part it really doesn't touch the work.. if you don't know enough science to discuss the work, then one theory is as good as the next.. wouldn't you say?

This is a refutations board, yes? Surely you expected to find some opposition to the Islamic teachings.

Of course.. I'd just like it to be colored a little differently.. but I can't impose that either.. to be honest, it is the under lying tone patronage and condescension that irks me... not so much what you do or don't believe!

In any case, a quick search of the words Qu'ran and modern science will lead to hundreds of books and websites claiming what you suggest I have imposed as the truth. From the Harun Yahas to the Zakir Naiks and many literate scholars in between.

So? it is certainly a part of the Quran.. some people focus on the allegory, some focus on the poetry, some focus on the numerology..some focus on the arrangement of suras, some focus on the 'mutaqati3at' (the suras that start with only a few letters) that in an of itself has loan rise to a thousand theory, personally, I think they will have missed the point entirely, but Allah SWT has stated 'its wonders never cease' and it is certainly an art all its own to go on trying to decode the centuries old book!

Edit:



I've never said that. Clearly if the word was revealed to an illiterate nation, they could not already be Muslims.

alrighty then.. thank you for the clarification...
I still get a depressing feeling though around atheists.. it is my own psychology, and I am very set in my ways.. I can't unlearn some habits/feelings now, considering they are ingrained there from impressions I have gathered in my experience..

all the best

cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin

No, I would not.

I take it to mean that you want me to explain those references.


The proposal itself is vague, but false nonetheless.

If by "pairs" you mean sexually compatible mates of the same species then there are quite a few that do not follow that rule.
Under asexual reproduction, various forms of budding, gemmules, fragmentation and regeneration can produce offspring. And it is not just the sponges and starfish who perhaps can conceivable be disregarded as important in the lives of humans but the numerous Oligochaeta and micro organisms that make human life even possible.

Earthworms, to take an example, are hermaphrodites and contain a full set of the necessary organs to reproduce "Sexually" but what is more interesting is that the will just as often reproduce asexually by simply folding their own bodies in half. Without these creatures in abundance, working our soil to make it more conducive for plant life, we may have given up farming many parts of the world.

Mitochondria, to take in internal example, are not part of the human cell structure in that our bodies to not produce them. These microorganisms and other bacterium living inside our bodies essentially create a world within our bodies that even allows for us to survive by producing the chemicals and proteins necessary for us to survive. This was only discovered recently. Like other bacterium, these organisms reproduce asexually through a process called binary fission.

If by "pairs" you mean mutually beneficial partnerships among plants and animals, in order to facilitate their lives, then unfortunately even that is false. Not all creatures have such pairs.

Unless you happen to take the evolutionary approach of arguing that a gazelle should be grateful for cheetahs because it has evolved to become a faster land animal in order to escape it's death, and cheetahs should be grateful for such an elusive prey for the same reason, only to be give up their kills on average to scavengers such as hyenas.

Quran says everything was created in pairs like even night and day, that would include everything including reproduction sexual and asexual among other thing. It is not talking about genders specifically.

As for the Water idea. You really must read about other creation myths. 12th century BCE Sumerian, Assyrian, and Babylonian mythology created even their gods in the water let alone humans.

First, similarity doesn't make Quran wrong. It is still correct, it is your presumption that if there is similarity than it must be copied. Interestingly, it happened to copy the correct one out of all the other creation myths around at that time.

Second, those myths are not same other than some water similarity. Quran says everything of life we see God created out of them water. Neither of those mention creation of the celestial bodies out of smoke and dust.

I was looking at all the scientific Miracles that were predicted in the Quran and Bible.

Can anyone use these books to find the next major scientific Discovery?

Dont get depressed around us Skye! We can do some singing if ya like to cheer you up?

format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin

Perfectly fine. When you read a passage about the revolutions of celestial bodies. Do you think "it's really cool how god could have made the universe like that" or "it's really cool how this hidden knowledge is revealed to us by god". Would you then tell your friends about the cool passage in the book as a useful metaphor for a deism, or would you say that this passage could not be conceived by mortals, and thus we have proof of the "hand of god"

Is it revealed truth, or not?



I agree.

i am not qualified to know what is revealed truth or not! but yeah, i do think, "yeah, isn't that cool how god made....." both when i read these passages as well as when i look at a tiny flower in the desert.
personally, i think it is a mistake to try to use these things in the qur'an as scientific proof and only opens up the way for a lot of silly arguments. also, i would never try to convince anybody about anything.
since one reason i came to believe in god is by learning about and observing nature, i think it's cool that god directs your attention to various creations and refers to them as signs of his creation. i believe that god works through nature.
but religion isn't science and shouldn't be expected to be or claimed to be.

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

Can anyone use these books to find the next major scientific Discovery?

Sure one can get the direction as muslim scientist once did before. For example, one can infer our universe is essentially flat from the descriptions in Quran. There could be numerous other things. But I believe we are reaching at the end of our discovery spectrum, there won't be any major new discoveries in physics, but mainly improvement in existing technologies. One major that might come could be teleportations or reducing 3D space travel with wormhole/spacewraps if our civilization doesn't collapse within 500 years.

However for specific things, there are prophecies of events that will take place near the end of our world, but no point in mentioning them now your not gonna believe them, people will know when they will happen.

^^^ there is actually one egyptian scientist working on a project to see what it is in sweat that can cure elevated intraocular pressure progressing to blindness as was the case of Jacob when he lost Joseph..
You'll recall that he was cured of his blindness when he held Joseph's shirt to his face.. I'll try to find that article for you..

I am sure it will prove interesting insha'Allah



Addendum: article found
personal note: I don't know how accurate these results are, I can't find the original article from Ar'Raya Qatar and not sure if it were published in any medical journal foreign or domestic.. I just wanted to share it....

Treatment of Cataract from Al-Quran

One of the Swiss pharmaceutical companies has started producing a new medicine called "Medicine of Quran" which allows the treatment of cataract without surgery. As the newspaper Ar-Raya, published in Qatar writes, "this drug which was synthesised by an Egyptian doctor Abdul Basit Muhammad from the secretions of human sweat glands and has an effectiveness of 99 per cent with absolutely no side effects, was registered in Europe and the United States. It is also reported that one of the Swiss companies produces the new drug in the form of liquid and eye drops."

The source of inspiration is Surah Yusaf. Dr. Abdul Basit Muhammad emphasised that he obtained his inspiration from Surah Yusaf and said: "Once in the morning, I was reading Surah (chapter) Yusuf. My attention lingered over the 84th and successive ayats (verses). "Go with this shirt of mine, and cast it over the face of my father, he will become clear-sighted, and bring to me all your family" (Qur'an 12:93)

They tell that Prophet Yaqoob who was mourning his son Yusaf (AS) in sadness and grief got his eyes turned white and later when people cast over the sorrowful father's face, the shirt of his son Yusuf, vision returned to him and he was able to see again.

Here I started pondering. What could be there in the shirt of Yusuf? Finally I arrived at the decision that nothing except sweat could be on it. I concentrated my thoughts over the sweat and its composition. Then I proceeded to the laboratory for research. I carried out a series of experiments on rabbits. The results turned out to be positive. Later I performed treatment on 250 patients by administering the drug twice a day for two weeks. Finally I achieved 99 per cent success and said to myself: "This is the miracle of the Quran".

Dr Abdul Basit Muhammad presented the results of his research to appropriate institutions in Europe and the United States dealing with patenting of new discoveries for consideration. After tests and research were performed, he finalised a contract with a Swiss company on the production of the medicine on the condition that the package should clearly mention - "Medicine of Quran." In the words of the Egyptian scientist, the company accepted his condition and started producing the new drug.

We send down from the Qur'an that which is a healing and mercy to those who believe. (Al-Qur'an 17:82)


Courtesy: Ar-Raya, Qatar

http://ajmalbeig.addr.com/isl_medicine.htm

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

I was looking at all the scientific Miracles that were predicted in the Quran and Bible.

Can anyone use these books to find the next major scientific Discovery?

Dont get depressed around us Skye! We can do some singing if ya like to cheer you up?

Yes
A time is coming when there will be very severe earthquakes and the world will be destroyed .

Isn't a spade just a really big spoon, do we call it a spade simply because of the way we use it? I have no problems if religious institutions are run like a business. It's in their best interest to come up with the best arguments to get the most converts to get more money and people to do the same. This time it's all for a wealth you can't measure in this world, one just hopes to be filthy rich in the end. If that's offensive, I don't know what to say. It's true.

That has nothing to with Islam. Being filthy rich has no importance in Islam. We would never do it for cash, since for us we aren't supposed to get attached to the materialism of this world. That is if you know what Islam is about and act on that, it's not something you would do. So in fact, it's not true and I won't judge it for other religions.

So the question becomes, why would anyone focus on that particular aspect (i.e.the science)?

Because that part of Islam is different than other religions. And that aspect of Islam is what intrigues a lot of people. But to make it clear, the Qur'an is a book of "signs" more than it is science. But it doesn't negate the fact that it does have it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy

That has nothing to with Islam. Being filthy rich has no importance in Islam. We would never do it for cash, since for us we aren't supposed to get attached to the materialism of this world. So in fact, it's not true and I won't judge it for other religions.

You missed the metaphor, simply the part of the sentence which explained the rest of that.

Have another go?



Edit:

It's called the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. You can imagine that a man could fire several shots into the side of a barn and then walk up to it and draw a circular target, to claim to be a sharpshooter.







Faysal

I didn't take it like a metaphor, I figured it's best to clear it up incase But what did you mean, just to be sure?

format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin

Fair enough. To that extent I too could conceive of a god who devised all the natural laws, but would you state that he has given purpose to the universe or that we are all predestined to a particular outcome?

You claim to be agnostic, but are you also a deist in the sense that Spinoza was or religious in a cultural sense in that it seems like a good way to live?


All the best wishes,


Faysal

i don't know if god has given purpose to the universe or if we are all predestined to a particular outcome.
i'm an agnostic who believes in god, but not religion.

well this is why i don't belong to any religion.

format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin

I've now read what you've written no less than 6 times.

I suppose I have to ask you a few questions,

How did you determine that a god exists, or probably exists?

Simply at the end of every question I posed to my person, no scientific method provided me with a satisfactory answer.. I was left with two choices really.. either silence the nagging questions and await such a time when science will provide me with an answer or accept that the true secret of life doesn't have an answer in palpable physical science..

Just on a personal level, why not Jainism? On the face of it, it seems to be better than Islam if one had limited knowledge of both ideologies.

How is it better? I didn't say I didn't read about other ideologies, I stated, it simply wasn't for me.. I can make up my own philosophy just the same, there is no divinity in it. Religion is much more than a code of conduct.. it has to satisfy one both heart and mind!

A lot of stuff, if read by itself, can make sense if one doesn't explore the other ideologies. That's simply called rationalization. It doesn't mean it's right, it just has to make sense if you've allowed the premises.

Everything has a bit of truth in it.. and I used this analogy before from one of my previous posts.

Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I don't think it is a matter of right or wrong..rather which is most correct...

I'll use the analogy of you showing up say with chest pain in the ER
1- Does your ER doc take your troponins?
2-Does he administer an EKG?
3-Does he give you an Aspirin/ heparin and draw a blood test?
4-Does he give you TPA on an emergent basis?
5-Does he secure your airway breathing and circulation?
6-Does he rule out other possibilites than a heart attack like an aortic dissection or GERD?

DO you see how they are all potentially correct answers? on a state licensing exam only ONE IS MOST CORRECT. Only one will score you a point on the test... Thus I say.. I personally don't believe the other monotheistic religions are wrong, whether Manadeans, sabeans, Jewish, Christian or whatever... it is a matter of which is most correct.. of course that is a decision left to the individual. In Islam generally we don't need to prove that the other prophets are wrong, to make prophet Mohammed (p) the one true messenger.. we hold them all in the same regards... It is actually a bonus being a Muslim Al7mdlilah.. one doesn't have to spend his/her life debunking the achievements of other messengers to shine a light on another....Islam to me and most practicing Muslims is the most well preserved and encompassing...

peace!

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post844253

Wonderful, a lot of people don't do that. They just hear about this school or that school and apply because their friends will be close.

That might work for a period of time, but surely we all evolve emotionally and intellectually with the passage of time!

To be honest, I think you put yourself in the second option in what you wrote. I really don't think I narrowed it down at all.

That is your interpretation.. I don't feel like broadening the field. I can only work with what you yourself post!

Aye, you'd be right. Someone who hasn't a clue about science shouldn't be fervently advocating one theory or another. Science is not advanced through a democratic process. even if tomorrow everyone got up and said that earth is flat, it could be demonstrated, quite easily, that it isn't. Scientists don't get paid to have a consensus, they get paid to provide evidence for or against theories.

In fact though some things are as clear as day.. many things aren't hence they are called theories..you'd need to know a little something about how the scientific method is approached.. I am taking the liberty to quote another one of my previous posts.. in short.. people have to stand there and defend their thesis and even with, there is always critical evaluation

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

You can't prove something is such or such..
try to read a little about the null hypothesis and the confidence interval..
in science and generally in experimentation you never accept the null hypothesis. We either reject them or fail to reject them. and we create a confidence interval where there is a certain percentage of error..
The scientific method is never 100% fool proof ..

Thus, you'll be waiting an awfully long time for someone to come with proof that this universe came ex nihilo and out of no ones volition.

Isn't a spade just a really big spoon, do we call it a spade simply because of the way we use it? I have no problems if religious institutions are run like a business. It's in their best interest to come up with the best arguments to get the most converts to get more money and people to do the same. This time it's all for a wealth you can't measure in this world, one just hopes to be filthy rich in the end. If that's offensive, I don't know what to say. It's true.

I have no idea what that means? but I am sure it makes sense in the confines of your mind.. in the scheme of things it is inconsequential to me or to Islam

So the question becomes, why would anyone focus on that particular aspect (i.e.the science)?

Why not? It is an aspect of it.. you seem to only find it I am guessing because that is all you are typing into google.. try a different variety of words and you'll get a different set of rationales..

Now, I need to be up at 4:30 AM to cheerio