Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

As a final posting to initiate this thread a short note on ways of constructing proofs.

Hypothesis
With regard to proof, many like to write out a hypothesis. There are two stages: write the null and alternative hypotheses and then write down the two (usually) variables involved (dependant and independent variables). This is usually the basis of an experiment of some kind so implies repeatability and so in context of this thread might not be all that useful

Setting Standards/Definitions
It is easily acknowledged that in normal life we can almost never get what one might call absolute proof. In courts of law for example they talk about the evidence being “beyond reasonable doubt” or based on “the balance of probabilities” – in other words you get enough information to convince (but not absolutely prove) you of the truth. This may be done in many ways but usually one lists the things one wants to see. For example, if I wanted to prove that Manchester United is the best football team in the world (they are not because everyone knows that is Arsenal!) then I might lay out my standard or definition for proof: no of goals scored, championships won, number of world class players and so on. There are three problems with this approach: firstly whoever you are talking to has to agree to your standards or definition, secondly if I can prove it today will it still be true tomorrow and thirdly once one knows the standards, it is all too easy to find the necessary evidence (one might often say manufacture the evidence).

A final vignette may help you here. I came across a true story of a man who had been married for many years but regularly had nightmares as to whether his wife really loved him. He was so bothered by this that he went to see a Church Minister and was told one way (standard/definition) to find proof (evidence) of love was to consider all the little things you wife does for you: wash you shirts, clean you shoes, cook your meals, look after you when you are ill and so on. You can see the “proofs” would be observable but is it really proof, will that man accept the standard or not, will it still be true in a year’s time and if the wife knows the standard will she just manufacture the evidence? The fact is that one can never know the answer here for certain and there will be many things in life that simply cannot be absolutely proved in any observable or rational manner and all that can be done is to feel convinced.

Falsification
This means that a proof is like a chain with links – break one link and the chain fails. So in proof if you can find one contrary example then the proof fails. In life of course it is all too easy to just ignore contrary opinion or examples and go on only looking for supporting ones. No doubt you have come across many people like this (you or I may be one of them!!), who no matter what you say to them they refuse to be shifted from their own view even when the evidence is overwhelming. Sometime you see this very strong idea distorted. Where you see this is with authors who try to show that X is untrue and then say that Y is therefore true. I am not talking here about a hypothesis because often there is no link at all between X and Y. The argument is something like “I can show that Ford is a bad car therefore Volkswagen is a good one” or even more starkly and absurdly, “you are wrong therefore I am right.” One might say here that if you cannot find at least in principle a way to falsify something then it can never be regarded as a proof - that is it means your proof cannot be tested.

Proof by the Unexpected
Most often when we are working on a topic we have an expectation about the answer so that when we actually see it we feel sort of reassured about it. Now, sometimes we can be surprised and startled by an answer because it is just “too good to be true” and that is most often that somewhere along the line you have made a mistake

Proof by Example or Illustration/Vignette
Many authors try argument as a way of proof. One often seen this in religion and politics but it is also present in many technical papers we see. The idea is that I present my view on something and then proceed to “prove” it by instancing examples that endorse its truth. Often those who use this idea challenge you to find a contrary example (falsification). I rather like this approach but one just needs to be ultra careful that we are not taken in by our own arguments and get to a stage where we just want to keep convincing ourselves that we are right and fail to see weaknesses in our own thinking. When you use this form your logic must be impeccable and you must get evidence that can be checked and always keep in mind that your arguments are almost bound to be constrained.

Does it Work
It is always very strong when you can show that something works. That is you have a sort of theory and although you perhaps cannot prove it in any absolute sense you can show that it works by citing examples. For example, some project management techniques are like this as we can see them working but if one is sensible one just recommends them as likely to work as no one would be willing to offer a guarantee that they always work no matter what the circumstances or project.

Reading
Monk, R and Raphael, F (ed), (2000), The Great Philosophers published, Phoenix ISBN 0-75381-136-7
Popper, K (2005), the Open Society and Its Enemies Volume 1, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-23731-9
Popper K, (2006), the Logic of Scientific Discovery, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-27844-9
Lipton, P, (2004), Inference to the best Explanation, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-2424-09
Forstater, M., “The Living Wisdom of Socrates”, Hodder Headliner Audio books.
Blackburn, Simon, (2001), Think, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-285425-9
Blackburn, Simon, (2006), Truth, Penguin, ISBN 0-141-01423-3
Talib, N,N (2007), The Back Swan, Penguin ISBN 978-0-1410-3459-1
Talib, N,N (2007), Fooled by Randomness, Penguin ISBN 978-0-141-034148-4
Kaye, S. M., (2009), Critical Thinking, Oneworld Publications ISBN 978-1-85168-654-4

Peace Hugo,

Quite a lot in your last couple of posts. It is going to take a bit of time to digest it all. I really appreciate the last post. Quite informative. Perhaps it can serve as a guide for keeping religious debates peaceful. A debate should never be justification for anger. Differences of beliefs are just that, differences, not need for anybody to get in an uproar about them no matter how far apart the differences are. The reasons for the differences can be discussed calmly with reason, and no need for mutual acceptance of a belief to be the call for victory. There are many things in this life people will never agree on, we all need to be open for allowing diversity as long as neither infringes upon the rights of the other.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

One further difficulty is that we have to consider is what about all the people who never had the Qu'ran so it could not have been a message for them?

Indeed. And furthermore, what about those who cannot read Arabic and therefore cannot get the full meaning and poetry of the Qur'an? And what about those who do not speak Hebrew/Greek and cannot obtain the full meaning of the Bible as it was originally intended?

Non-Arabic Muslims are constantly told 'you can never fully understand the Qur'an', and indeed, one English translation will differ quite significantly from another. One will try to be poetic, one will try to be rational, one will try to be half and half. One will be condemned for being apologetic, whilst the other for being too literal. Meanwhile the Arabic-speaking Muslims will simply say 'Learn Arabic or you can never truly grasp what God is saying to you. You have a more difficult path because of your geographic circumstances. Sorry.'

The problem of languages, is that there is no universal language for revealed scripture, that there are parts of the world such as Africa where people speak hundreds of dialects into which neither the Bible nor the Qur'an has been translated. I have met Muslims who have no idea what the Qur'an says and may never know.

The only truly universal revelation which can be appreciated by all peoples of all cultures is the creation itself.

,

Apart from Miracles proof, could you tell us if it is weak argument for you?

Allah says:
"And nothing is hidden from your Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in the heaven. Nor (is there) what is less than that or what is greater than that but is (written) in a Clear Record.)" -Qur'an 10:61


It says 'weight of an atom', do you think Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) possible wrote it in 1400 years ago despite no technology/knowledges at that times?

format_quote Originally Posted by Humbler_359

Apart from Miracles proof, could you tell us if it is weak argument for you?
says: "And nothing is hidden from your Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom] on the earth or in the heaven. Nor (is there) what is less than that or what is greater than that but is (written) in a Clear Record.)" Qur'an 10:61. It says 'weight of an atom', do you think Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) possible wrote it in 1400 years ago despite no technology/knowledges at that times?

1. Well firstly, I think you will find that Muslim doctrine says that it is God who wrote these words not Prophet Mohammed.

2.I think it was Democritus, a Greek philosopher who gave the world let's call it an atomic theory and so it was I suppose customary to think that an atom was the smallest particle but one does not need modern technology to conceive or imagine in ones mind that something might be smaller or larger than something else so there is no miracle of any kind here.

3. You might also like to look at Mohsin Khan's translation and there you get quite a different take on this "Neither you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) do any deed nor recite any portion of the Qur'an, - nor you (mankind) do any deed (good or evil) but We are Witness thereof, when you are doing it. And nothing is hidden from your Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom (or small ant) on the earth or in the heaven. Not what is less than that or what is greater than that but is (written) in a Clear Record. (Tafsir At-Tabari). (سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #61)

4. It is not always or perhaps ever reasonable to look for a scientific miracle in a sentence that speaks of the probability of an improbable thing, and it is simpler and more natural to think of it as hyperbole. In the New Testament St Paul uses hyperbole when he says he is “less than the least of all the saints” (Ephesians 3:8) so is St Paul hinting (about 700 years before the Qu'ran was known) at the existence of sub-atomic particles when he said that even the least of something had something lesser or smaller? This would make the Qur’an’s supposed scientific miracle about the sub-atomic particles inferior to the miracles of the Christian scripture.

5. Not every Qur’an verse talking of an atom includes the phrase “less than that”:

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward. (Surah 4:40)

Say: Call upon those whom you assert besides Allah; they do not control the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth nor have they any partnership in either, nor has He among them any one to back (Him) up. (Surah 34:22)

The Qur’an uses the same notion of weight (mithqal) even with regard to a grain of mustard in the following verse so this example debunks any allegations about the foreknowledge of the sub-atomic particles in the Qur’an.

And We will set up a just balance on the day of resurrection, so no soul shall be dealt with unjustly in the least; and though there be the weight of a grain of mustard seed, (yet) will We bring it, and sufficient are We to take account. (Surah 21:47)

6. It seems to me that making such a woolly assertion borders on tendentious and detracts from the message the verse is actually giving and to push out such weak ideas as proof reduces the argument to sophistry.

I haven't been following this thread, but certainly, it has been discussed before in greater detail here:
Prove that the Qur'an IS the word of God

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

1. Well firstly, I think you will find that Muslim doctrine says that it is God who wrote these words not Prophet Mohammed.

The Quran is the word of God, written by scribes!

2.I think it was Democritus, a Greek philosopher who gave the world let's call it an atomic theory and so it was I suppose customary to think that an atom was the smallest particle but one does not need modern technology to conceive or imagine in ones mind that something might be smaller or larger than something else so there is no miracle of any kind here.

well, when you have christian folks thinking the earth was flat in the 12th c. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404705536.html

it would indeed seem miraculous that an atom or smaller is mentioned 600AD.

3. You might also like to look at Mohsin Khan's translation and there you get quite a different take on this "Neither you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) do any deed nor recite any portion of the Qur'an, - nor you (mankind) do any deed (good or evil) but We are Witness thereof, when you are doing it. And nothing is hidden from your Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom (or small ant) on the earth or in the heaven. Not what is less than that or what is greater than that but is (written) in a Clear Record. (Tafsir At-Tabari). (سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #61)

Mohsin Khan translation isn't a substitute for what is actually written in Arabic.. he providing his own rendition or his own interpretation in brackets doesn't make it a substitute for what God dictated and preserved!

4. It is not always or perhaps ever reasonable to look for a scientific miracle in a sentence that speaks of the probability of an improbable thing, and it is simpler and more natural to think of it as hyperbole. In the New Testament St Paul uses hyperbole when he says he is “less than the least of all the saints” (Ephesians 3:8) so is St Paul hinting (about 700 years before the Qu'ran was known) at the existence of sub-atomic particles when he said that even the least of something had something lesser or smaller? This would make the Qur’an’s supposed scientific miracle about the sub-atomic particles inferior to the miracles of the Christian scripture.

I don't see any similarities...
the term used in the Quran is the same term used today by modern Muslim physicists and chemists who have gone on to win the Nobel prize:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/ahm...ewail-info.htm

Say: Call upon those whom you assert besides Allah; they do not control the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth nor have they any partnership in either, nor has He among them any one to back (Him) up. (Surah 34:22)

5. Not every Qur’an verse talking of an atom includes the phrase “less than that”:

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward. (Surah 4:40)

in your ignorance you fail to see the great significance of that, for surely even atoms can be split!

The Qur’an uses the same notion of weight (mithqal) even with regard to a grain of mustard in the following verse so this example debunks any allegations about the foreknowledge of the sub-atomic particles in the Qur’an.

I don't understand the point you are making here.. mithqal zhara is a different weight from a mithqal khardal.. what is your point?

And We will set up a just balance on the day of resurrection, so no soul shall be dealt with unjustly in the least; and though there be the weight of a grain of mustard seed, (yet) will We bring it, and sufficient are We to take account. (Surah 21:47)

6. It seems to me that making such a woolly assertion borders on tendentious and detracts from the message the verse is actually giving and to push out such weak ideas as proof reduces the argument to sophistry.

Not at all, different examples are given all throughout the quran to address all levels of intellect. You can go as deep or as superficial.. That is why it is said that the wonders of the Quran never cease!

all the best!

Yes, Qur'an is the false book written by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), you are correct..

I assure you it is not first time, Unbelievers like you are still exists today as before. I expect that.

Even idol Unbelievers drowned easily during Noah (PUBH)
Unbelievers argued against Abraham (PBUH)
Unbelievers argued against Moses (PBUH)
More clown Unbelievers still argued against Jesus (PBUH)
More crazy Unbelievers still argued wasting time against Muhammad (PBUH)
.
.
.
.
Prophet Jacobs, Lot, Adam, David, Solomon, Job, Jonah, Joseph, Aaron, so on...... All the messages are SAME and different role models.
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.
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Amazingly, some people still unable to perceive the simple messages of the Qur'an (last reminder of testament) before your time expire.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

If we assume that 'scriptures' here means the Bible then:

Not the ones you have today in your possession.. the torah itself was an oral tradition for a good 800-1000 yrs before it was written down..
surely you have heard of chinese whispers?.. It isn't OK to substitute one word for a similar word in the Quran and claim it is from God obviously very unlike the OT/NT of which I may remind you to the Jews there is no such thing as an NT as it is completely at odds with monotheism!

a. Why is that Muslim don't study and accept the OT and NT as we have them now?

They are full of contradiction.. if you can't get christians to agree on content and not call each other heretics how can you expect that jews should believe it let alone Muslims?

b. If you don't accept them then what can this verse mean? I of course know the Muslim position that the scriptures have been corrupted but you are then in the totally illogical position of trusting in scriptures that do not now as far as we know exist and that is if I may say so an absurd stance.

The verse denotes that God has given previous messengers scriptures, but they weren't preserved, if you go on to read the Quran, you'd come across verses as such
2:75 Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of God, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

يَسْمَعُونَ كَلَامَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَيَقُول تَعَالَى " أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ " أَيّهَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ" أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا لَكُمْ " أَيْ يَنْقَاد لَكُمْ بِالطَّاعَةِ هَؤُلَاءِ الْفِرْقَة الضَّالَّة مِنْ الْيَهُود الَّذِينَ شَاهَدَ آبَاؤُهُمْ مِنْ الْآيَات الْبَيِّنَات مَا شَاهَدُوهُ ثُمَّ قَسَتْ قُلُوبهمْ مِنْ بَعْد ذَلِكَ " وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيق مِنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلَام اللَّه ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ " أَيْ يَتَأَوَّلُونَهُ عَلَى غَيْر تَأْوِيله" مِنْ بَعْد مَا عَقَلُوهُ " أَيْ فَهِمُوهُ عَلَى الْجَلِيَّة وَمَعَ هَذَا يُخَالِفُونَهُ عَلَى بَصِيرَة " وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ " أَنَّهُمْ مُخْطِئُونَ فِيمَا ذَهَبُوا إِلَيْهِ مِنْ تَحْرِيفه وَتَأْوِيله وَهَذَا الْمَقَام شَبِيه بِقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى " فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِمْ مِيثَاقهمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبهمْ قَاسِيَة يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعه " قَالَ مُحَمَّد بْن إِسْحَاق حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّد بْن أَبِي مُحَمَّد عَنْ عِكْرِمَة أَوْ سَعِيد بْن جُبَيْر عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس أَنَّهُ قَالَ ثُمَّ قَالَ اللَّه تَعَالَى لِنَبِيِّهِ - صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ - وَلِمَنْ مَعَهُ مِنْ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُؤَيِّسهُمْ مِنْهُمْ " أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا لَكُمْ وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيق مِنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلَام اللَّه " وَلَيْسَ قَوْله لَيَسْمَعُونَ التَّوْرَاة كُلّهمْ قَدْ سَمِعَهَا وَلَكِنْ هُمْ الَّذِينَ سَأَلُوا مُوسَى رُؤْيَة رَبّهمْ فَأَخَذَتْهُمْ الصَّاعِقَة فِيهَا . وَقَالَ مُحَمَّد بْن إِسْحَاق فِيمَا حَدَّثَنِي بَعْض أَهْل الْعِلْم أَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا لِمُوسَى يَا مُوسَى قَدْ حِيلَ بَيْننَا وَبَيْن رُؤْيَة رَبّنَا تَعَالَى فَأَسْمِعْنَا كَلَامه حِين يُكَلِّمك فَطَلَبَ ذَلِكَ مُوسَى إِلَى رَبّه تَعَالَى فَقَالَ نَعَمْ مُرْهُمْ فَلْيَتَطَهَّرُوا وَلْيُطَهِّرُوا ثِيَابهمْ وَيَصُومُوا فَفَعَلُوا ثُمَّ خَرَجَ بِهِمْ حَتَّى أَتَوْا الطُّور فَلَمَّا غَشِيَهُمْ الْغَمَام أَمَرَهُمْ مُوسَى أَنْ يَسْجُدُوا فَوَقَعُوا سُجُودًا وَكَلَّمَهُ رَبّه فَسَمِعُوا كَلَامه يَأْمُرهُمْ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ حَتَّى عَقَلُوا مِنْهُ مَا سَمِعُوا ثُمَّ اِنْصَرَفَ بِهِمْ إِلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيل فَلَمَّا جَاءَهُمْ حَرَّفَ فَرِيقٌ مِنْهُمْ مَا أَمَرَهُمْ بِهِ وَقَالُوا حِين قَالَ مُوسَى لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيل إِنَّ اللَّه قَدْ أَمَرَكُمْ بِكَذَا وَكَذَا قَالَ ذَلِكَ الْفَرِيق الَّذِينَ ذَكَرَهُمْ اللَّه إِنَّمَا قَالَ كَذَا وَكَذَا خِلَافًا لِمَا قَالَ اللَّه عَزَّ وَجَلَّ لَهُمْ فَهُمْ الَّذِينَ عَنَى اللَّه لِرَسُولِهِ - صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَقَالَ السُّدِّيّ" وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيق مِنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلَام اللَّه ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ" قَالَ هِيَ التَّوْرَاة حَرَّفُوهَا وَهَذَا الَّذِي ذَكَرَهُ السُّدِّيّ أَعَمّ مِمَّا ذَكَرَهُ اِبْن عَبَّاس وَابْن إِسْحَاق وَإِنْ كَانَ قَدْ اِخْتَارَهُ اِبْن جَرِير لِظَاهِرِ السِّيَاق فَإِنَّهُ لَيْسَ يَلْزَم مِنْ سَمَاع كَلَام اللَّه أَنْ يَكُون مِنْهُ كَمَا سَمِعَهُ الْكَلِيم مُوسَى بْن عِمْرَان عَلَيْهِ الصَّلَاة وَالسَّلَام وَقَدْ قَالَ اللَّه تَعَالَى " وَإِنْ أَحَدٌ مِنْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ اِسْتَجَارَك فَأَجِرْهُ حَتَّى يَسْمَعَ كَلَامَ اللَّهِ " أَيْ مُبَلَّغًا إِلَيْهِ وَلِهَذَا قَالَ قَتَادَة فِي قَوْله ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِنْ بَعْد مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ " قَالَ هُمْ الْيَهُود كَانُوا يَسْمَعُونَ كَلَام اللَّه ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِنْ بَعْد مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَوَعَوْهُ وَقَالَ مُجَاهِد الَّذِينَ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ وَاَلَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَهُ هُمْ الْعُلَمَاء مِنْهُمْ وَقَالَ : أَبُو الْعَالِيَة عَمَدُوا إِلَى مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّه فِي كِتَابهمْ مِنْ نَعْت مُحَمَّد - صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ - فَحَرَّفُوهُ عَنْ مَوَاضِعه وَقَالَ السُّدِّيّ" وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ " أَيْ أَنَّهُمْ أَذْنَبُوا وَقَالَ اِبْن وَهْب قَالَ : اِبْن زَيْد فِي قَوْله " يَسْمَعُونَ كَلَام اللَّه ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ" قَالَ : التَّوْرَاة الَّتِي أَنْزَلَهَا اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ يُحَرِّفُونَهَا يَجْعَلُونَ الْحَلَال فِيهَا حَرَامًا وَالْحَرَام فِيهَا حَلَالًا وَالْحَقّ فِيهَا بَاطِلًا وَالْبَاطِل فِيهَا حَقًّا وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ الْمُحِقّ بِرِشْوَةٍ أَخْرَجُوا لَهُ كِتَاب اللَّه وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ الْمُبْطِل بِرِشْوَةٍ أَخْرَجُوا لَهُ ذَلِكَ الْكِتَاب فَهُوَ فِيهِ مُحِقّ وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَحَد يَسْأَلهُمْ شَيْئًا لَيْسَ فِيهِ حَقّ وَلَا رِشْوَة وَلَا شَيْء أَمَرُوهُ بِالْحَقِّ فَقَالَ اللَّه لَهُمْ" أَتَأْمُرُونَ النَّاس بِالْبِرِّ وَتَنْسَوْنَ أَنْفُسكُمْ وَأَنْتُمْ تَتْلُونَ الْكِتَاب أَفَلَا تَعْقِلُونَ "


surely you can fool yourself into believing that the books are error free, even if they are incongruous but it is clear for us in the Quran and tafsir that your books have been tampered with.. it isn't a new definition or spin on the verses, that is how they were always understood!

c. One presumes that Prophet Mohammed understood this verse but could not as far as we know have had access to the supposed uncorrupted versions so he must have understood it as being the versions we know about.

That is what the Quran did, also called the Furqan
مِن قَبْلُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَنزَلَ الْفُرْقَانَ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ ذُو انتِقَامٍ {4}
[Pickthal 3:4] Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).

clearly understood to be the decider between where you lie in error and where the truth is
so point to be made
1- How could prophet mohammed copy your scriptures when firstly he was illiterate, secondly he was an Arabic speaker, and secondly when the content is clearly telling you, that your scribes have perverted the message

and again

تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ الْفُرْقَانَ عَلَى عَبْدِهِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيرًا {1}
[Pickthal 25:1] Blessed is He Who hath revealed unto His slave the Criterion (of right and wrong), that he may be a warner to the peoples.

The Quran is known as the criterion to teach where the folks of old have perverted and erred.

I have no idea why this is a point many of you bring up, because it is actually a non-point, if a Muslim believes in the Quran, he believes in all that there is therein, and clearly the Quran has established that the scribes of old have lied and perverted the message..

____________________

Now I challenge you to bring me a chapter in the bible that speaks of Ahel Al kahf (early monotheistic Christians)

since you can't have it both ways.. you can't say he copied in one stance, then he didn't know in another stance.. the only logical conclusion after an exhaustive search is to conclude the book is from none other than Allah swt

Muhsin Khan
: All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has sent down to His slave (Muhammad SAW) the Book (the Quran), and has not placed therein any crookedness.

18:2 to top

Muhsin Khan
: (He has made it) Straight to give warning (to the disbelievers) of a severe punishment from Him, and to give glad tidings to the believers (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism), who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a fair reward (i.e. Paradise).

18:3 to top

Muhsin Khan
: They shall abide therein forever.

18:4 to top

Muhsin Khan
: And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allah has begotten a son (or offspring or children)."

18:5 to top

Muhsin Khan
: No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. Mighty is the word that comes out of their mouths [i.e. He begot (took) sons and daughters]. They utter nothing but a lie.

18:6 to top

Muhsin Khan
: Perhaps, you, would kill yourself (O Muhammad SAW) in grief, over their footsteps (for their turning away from you), because they believe not in this narration (the Quran).

18:7 to top

Muhsin Khan
: Verily! We have made that which is on earth as an adornment for it, in order that We may test them (mankind) as to which of them are best in deeds. [i.e.those who do good deeds in the most perfect manner, that means to do them (deeds) totally for Allah's sake and in accordance to the legal ways of the Prophet SAW ].

18:8 to top

Muhsin Khan
: And verily! We shall make all that is on it (the earth) a bare dry soil (without any vegetation or trees, etc.).

18:9 to top

Muhsin Khan
: Do you think that the people of the Cave and the Inscription (the news or the names of the people of the Cave) were a wonder among Our Signs?

18:10 to top

Muhsin Khan
: (Remember) when the young men fled for refuge (from their disbelieving folk) to the Cave, they said: "Our Lord! Bestow on us mercy from Yourself, and facilitate for us our affair in the right way!"

18:11 to top

Muhsin Khan
: Therefore We covered up their (sense of) hearing (causing them, to go in deep sleep) in the Cave for a number of years.

18:12 to top

Muhsin Khan
: Then We raised them up (from their sleep), that We might test which of the two parties was best at calculating the time period that they had tarried.

18:13 to top

Muhsin Khan
: We narrate unto you (O Muhammad SAW) their story with truth: Truly! They were young men who believed in their Lord (Allah), and We increased them in guidance.

18:14 to top

Muhsin Khan
: And We made their hearts firm and strong (with the light of Faith in Allah and bestowed upon them patience to bear the separation of their kith and kin and dwellings, etc.) when they stood up and said: "Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, never shall we call upon any ilah (god) other than Him; if we did, we should indeed have uttered an enormity in disbelief.

18:15 to top

Muhsin Khan
: "These our people have taken for worship aliha (gods) other than Him (Allah). Why do they not bring for them a clear authority? And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah.

18:16 to top

Muhsin Khan
: (The young men said to one another): "And when you withdraw from them, and that which they worship, except Allah, then seek refuge in the Cave, your Lord will open a way for you from His Mercy and will make easy for you your affair (i.e. will give you what you will need of provision, dwelling, etc.)."

18:17 to top

Muhsin Khan
: And you might have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the midst of the Cave. That is (one) of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs) of Allah. He whom Allah guides, is rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no Wali (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right Path).

18:18 to top

Muhsin Khan
: And you would have thought them awake, while they were asleep. And We turned them on their right and on their left sides, and their dog stretching forth his two forelegs at the entrance [of the Cave or in the space near to the entrance of the Cave (as a guard at the gate)]. Had you looked at them, you would certainly have turned back from them in flight, and would certainly have been filled with awe of them.

18:19 to top

Muhsin Khan
: Likewise, We awakened them (from their long deep sleep) that they might question one another. A speaker from among them said: "How long have you stayed (here)?" They said: "We have stayed (perhaps) a day or part of a day." They said: "Your Lord (Alone) knows best how long you have stayed (here). So send one of you with this silver coin of yours to the town, and let him find out which is the good lawful food, and bring some of that to you. And let him be careful and let no man know of you.

18:20 to top

Muhsin Khan
: "For if they come to know of you, they will stone you (to death or abuse and harm you) or turn you back to their religion, and in that case you will never be successful."

18:21 to top

Muhsin Khan
: And thus We made their case known to the people, that they might know that the Promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour. (Remember) when they (the people of the city) disputed among themselves about their case, they said: "Construct a building over them, their Lord knows best about them," (then) those who won their point said (most probably the disbelievers): "We verily shall build a place of worship over them."

18:22 to top

Muhsin Khan
: (Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth, guessing at the unseen; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "My Lord knows best their number; none knows them but a few." So debate not (about their number, etc.) except with the clear proof (which We have revealed to you). And consult not any of them (people of the Scripture, Jews and Christians) about (the affair of) the people of the Cave.

18:23 to top

Muhsin Khan
: And never say of anything, "I shall do such and such thing tomorrow."

18:24 to top

Muhsin Khan
: Except (with the saying), "If Allah will!" And remember your Lord when you forget and say: "It may be that my Lord guides me unto a nearer way of truth than this."

18:25 to top

Muhsin Khan
: And they stayed in their Cave three hundred (solar) years, and add nine (for lunar years).

18:26 to top

Muhsin Khan
: Say: "Allah knows best how long they stayed. With Him is (the knowledge of) the unseen of the heavens and the earth. How clearly He sees, and hears (everything)! They have no Wali (Helper, Disposer of affairs, Protector, etc.) other than Him, and He makes none to share in His Decision and His Rule."

_______________________

another miracle here is that of the number of years they remained in the cave, not everyone walks around calculating lunar calendar in comparison with the regular one but that is a story for another!

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

As a final posting to initiate this thread a short note on ways of constructing proofs.

Hypothesis
With regard to proof, many like to write out a hypothesis. There are two stages: write the null and alternative hypotheses and then write down the two (usually) variables involved (dependant and independent variables). This is usually the basis of an experiment of some kind so implies repeatability and so in context of this thread might not be all that useful

Indeed, you can reject the null hypothesis or fail to reject it.
has this been applied to any books of philosophy though? I mean how do you think the bible will do in comparison?

Setting Standards/Definitions
It is easily acknowledged that in normal life we can almost never get what one might call absolute proof. In courts of law for example they talk about the evidence being “beyond reasonable doubt” or based on “the balance of probabilities” – in other words you get enough information to convince (but not absolutely prove) you of the truth. This may be done in many ways but usually one lists the things one wants to see. For example, if I wanted to prove that Manchester United is the best football team in the world (they are not because everyone knows that is Arsenal!) then I might lay out my standard or definition for proof: no of goals scored, championships won, number of world class players and so on. There are three problems with this approach: firstly whoever you are talking to has to agree to your standards or definition, secondly if I can prove it today will it still be true tomorrow and thirdly once one knows the standards, it is all too easy to find the necessary evidence (one might often say manufacture the evidence).

I agree again, and even though the Quran is filled with signs for us to ponder and reflect the very second chapter states:
Muhsin Khan
2:2 This is the Book (the Quran), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqun [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

Muhsin Khan
2:3 Who believe in the Ghaib and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and spend out of what we have provided for them [i.e. give Zakat , spend on themselves, their parents, their children, their wives, etc., and also give charity to the poor and also in Allah's Cause - Jihad, etc.].

as in believe in the unseen, the things that one doesn't know, by placing some measure of confidence in the rest you can then reject or fail to reject!
and that is really what you'd do in any experiment with a P value, a confidence interval, types I or II errors.
There is no book more studied or memorized or recited than the Quran, it has been scrutinized by every possible mean, and it resolute and unfalsifiable!

I suggest you look with some great details at the thread I linked a few posts ago:

Prove that the Qur'an IS the word of God

just to see the many ways it is scrutinized and how all the false claims just crumble to the veritable truth of the Quran

peace




الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَر الرَّازِيّ عَنْ الْعَلَاء بْن الْمُسَيِّب بْن رَافِع عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاق عَنْ أَبِي الْأَحْوَص عَنْ عَبْد اللَّه قَالَ : الْإِيمَان التَّصْدِيق وَقَالَ عَلِيّ بْن أَبِي طَلْحَة وَغَيْره عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهُمَا يُؤْمِنُونَ يُصَدِّقُونَ وَقَالَ مَعْمَر عَنْ الزُّهْرِيّ : الْإِيمَان الْعَمَل وَقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَر الرَّازِيّ عَنْ الرَّبِيع بْن أَنَس يُؤْمِنُونَ يَخْشُونَ . قَالَ اِبْن جَرِير : وَالْأَوْلَى أَنْ يَكُونُوا مَوْصُوفِينَ بِالْإِيمَانِ بِالْغَيْبِ قَوْلًا وَاعْتِقَادًا وَعَمَلًا وَقَدْ تَدْخُل الْخَشْيَة لِلَّهِ فِي مَعْنَى الْإِيمَان الَّذِي هُوَ تَصْدِيق الْقَوْل بِالْعَمَلِ وَالْإِيمَان كَلِمَة جَامِعَة لِلْإِيمَانِ بِاَللَّهِ وَكُتُبه وَرُسُله وَتَصْدِيق الْإِقْرَار بِالْفِعْلِ" قُلْت " أَمَّا الْإِيمَان فِي اللُّغَة فَيُطْلَق عَلَى التَّصْدِيق الْمَحْض وَقَدْ يُسْتَعْمَل فِي الْقُرْآن وَالْمُرَاد بِهِ ذَلِكَ كَمَا قَالَ تَعَالَى " يُؤْمِن بِاَللَّهِ وَيُؤْمِن لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ" وَكَمَا قَالَ إِخْوَة يُوسُف لِأَبِيهِمْ " وَمَا أَنْتَ بِمُؤْمِنٍ لَنَا وَلَوْ كُنَّا صَادِقِينَ " وَكَذَلِكَ إِذَا اُسْتُعْمِلَ مَقْرُونًا مَعَ الْأَعْمَال كَقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى " إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَات " فَأَمَّا إِذَا اُسْتُعْمِلَ مُطْلَقًا فَالْإِيمَان الشَّرْعِيّ الْمَطْلُوب لَا يَكُون إِلَّا اِعْتِقَادًا وَقَوْلًا وَعَمَلًا. هَكَذَا ذَهَبَ إِلَيْهِ أَكْثَر الْأَئِمَّة بَلْ قَدْ حَكَاهُ الشَّافِعِيّ وَأَحْمَد بْن حَنْبَل وَأَبُو عُبَيْدَة وَغَيْر وَاحِد إِجْمَاعًا : أَنَّ الْإِيمَان قَوْل وَعَمَل وَيَزِيد وَيَنْقُص وَقَدْ وَرَدَ فِيهِ آثَار كَثِيرَة وَأَحَادِيث أَفْرَدْنَا الْكَلَام فِيهَا فِي أَوَّل شَرْح الْبُخَارِيّ وَلِلَّهِ الْحَمْد وَالْمِنَّة . وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ فَسَّرَهُ بِالْخَشْيَةِ كَقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى " إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبّهمْ بِالْغَيْبِ " وَقَوْله " مَنْ خَشِيَ الرَّحْمَن بِالْغَيْبِ وَجَاءَ بِقَلْبٍ مُنِيب " وَالْخَشْيَة خُلَاصَة الْإِيمَان وَالْعِلْم كَمَا قَالَ تَعَالَى " إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّه مِنْ عِبَاده الْعُلَمَاء " وَقَالَ بَعْضهمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ كَمَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالشَّهَادَةِ وَلَيْسُوا كَمَا قَالَ تَعَالَى عَنْ الْمُنَافِقِينَ" وَإِذَا لَقُوا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا قَالُوا آمَنَا وَإِذَا خَلَوْا إِلَى شَيَاطِينهمْ قَالُوا إِنَّا مَعَكُمْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُسْتَهْزِءُونَ" وَقَالَ " إِذَا جَاءَك الْمُنَافِقُونَ قَالُوا نَشْهَد إِنَّك لَرَسُول اللَّه وَاَللَّه يَعْلَم إِنَّك لِرَسُولِهِ وَاَللَّه يَشْهَد إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَكَاذِبُونَ " فَعَلَى هَذَا يَكُون قَوْله بِالْغَيْبِ حَالًا أَيْ فِي حَال كَوْنهمْ غَيْبًا عَنْ النَّاس . وَأَمَّا الْغَيْب الْمُرَاد هَاهُنَا فَقَدْ اِخْتَلَفَتْ عِبَارَات السَّلَف فِيهِ وَكُلّهَا صَحِيحَة تَرْجِع إِلَى أَنَّ الْجَمِيع مُرَاد قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَر الرَّازِيّ عَنْ الرَّبِيع بْن أَنَس عَنْ أَبِي الْعَالِيَة فِي قَوْله تَعَالَى " يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ " قَالَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاَللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَته وَكُتُبه وَرُسُله وَالْيَوْم الْآخِر وَجَنَّته وَنَاره وَلِقَائِهِ وَيُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْحَيَاةِ بَعْد الْمَوْت وَبِالْبَعْثِ فَهَذَا غَيْب كُلّه . وَكَذَا قَالَ قَتَادَة بْن دِعَامَة وَقَالَ السُّدِّيّ عَنْ أَبِي مَالِك وَعَنْ أَبِي صَالِح عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس وَعَنْ مُرَّة الْهَمْدَانِيّ عَنْ اِبْن مَسْعُود وَعَنْ نَاس مِنْ أَصْحَاب النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَمَّا الْغَيْب فَمَا غَابَ عَنْ الْعِبَاد مِنْ أَمْر الْجَنَّة وَأَمْر النَّار وَمَا ذُكِرَ فِي الْقُرْآن وَقَالَ مُحَمَّد بْن إِسْحَاق عَنْ مُحَمَّد بْن أَبِي مُحَمَّد عَنْ عِكْرِمَة أَوْ عَنْ سَعِيد بْن جُبَيْر عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس بِالْغَيْبِ قَالَ بِمَا جَاءَ مِنْهُ - يَعْنِي مِنْ اللَّه تَعَالَى - وَقَالَ سُفْيَان الثَّوْرِيّ عَنْ عَاصِم عَنْ زِرّ قَالَ الْغَيْب الْقُرْآن وَقَالَ عَطَاء بْن أَبِي رَبَاح مَنْ آمَنَ بِاَللَّهِ فَقَدْ آمَنَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَقَالَ إِسْمَاعِيل بْن أَبِي خَالِد يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ قَالَ بِغَيْبِ الْإِسْلَام وَقَالَ زَيْد بْن أَسْلَمَ الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ قَالَ بِالْقَدَرِ . فَكُلّ هَذِهِ مُتَقَارِبَة فِي مَعْنَى وَاحِد لِأَنَّ جَمِيع هَذِهِ الْمَذْكُورَات مِنْ الْغَيْب الَّذِي يَجِب الْإِيمَان بِهِ . وَقَالَ سَعِيد بْن مَنْصُور حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَة عَنْ الْأَعْمَش عَنْ عُمَارَة بْن عُمَيْر عَنْ عَبْد الرَّحْمَن بْن يَزِيد قَالَ كُنَّا عِنْد عَبْد اللَّه بْن مَسْعُود جُلُوسًا فَذَكَرنَا أَصْحَاب النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَمَا سَبَقُونَا بِهِ فَقَالَ عَبْد اللَّه إِنَّ أَمْر مُحَمَّد صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَانَ بَيِّنًا لِمَنْ رَآهُ وَاَلَّذِي لَا إِلَه غَيْره مَا آمَنَ أَحَد قَطُّ إِيمَانًا أَفْضَل مِنْ إِيمَان بِغَيْبٍ ثُمَّ قَرَأَ " الم ذَلِكَ الْكِتَاب لَا رَيْب فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ - إِلَى قَوْله - الْمُفْلِحُونَ " وَهَكَذَا رَوَاهُ اِبْن أَبِي حَاتِم وَابْن مَرْدَوَيْهِ وَالْحَاكِم فِي مُسْتَدْرَكه مِنْ طُرُق عَنْ الْأَعْمَش بِهِ وَقَالَ الْحَاكِم صَحِيح عَلَى شَرْط الشَّيْخَيْنِ وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ . وَفِي مَعْنَى هَذَا الْحَدِيث الَّذِي رَوَاهُ أَحْمَد حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْمُغِيرَة أَنَا الْأَوْزَاعِيّ حَدَّثَنِي أَسَد بْن عَبْد الرَّحْمَن عَنْ خَالِد بْن دُرَيْك عَنْ اِبْن مُحَيْرِيز قَالَ : قُلْت لِأَبِي جُمْعَة حَدِّثْنَا حَدِيثًا سَمِعْته مِنْ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ نَعَمْ أُحَدِّثك حَدِيثًا جَيِّدًا : تَغَدَّيْنَا مَعَ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَمَعَنَا أَبُو عُبَيْدَة بْن الْجَرَّاح فَقَالَ يَا رَسُول اللَّه هَلْ أَحَد خَيْر مِنَّا ؟ أَسْلَمْنَا مَعَك وَجَاهَدْنَا مَعَك . قَالَ " نَعَمْ قَوْم مِنْ بَعْدكُمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِي وَلَمْ يَرَوْنِي " طَرِيق أُخْرَى قَالَ أَبُو بَكْر بْن مَرْدَوَيْهِ فِي تَفْسِيره حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّه بْن جَعْفَر حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيل عَنْ عَبْد اللَّه بْن مَسْعُود حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّه بْن صَالِح حَدَّثَنَا مُعَاوِيَة بْن صَالِح عَنْ صَالِح بْن جُبَيْر قَالَ : قَدَّمَ عَلَيْنَا أَبُو جُمْعَة الْأَنْصَارِيّ صَاحِب رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِبَيْتِ الْمَقْدِس يُصَلِّي فِيهِ وَمَعَنَا يَوْمَئِذٍ رَجَاء بْن حَيْوَة رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهُ فَلَمَّا اِنْصَرَفَ خَرَجْنَا نُشَيِّعهُ فَلَمَّا أَرَادَ الِانْصِرَاف قَالَ إِنَّ لَكُمْ جَائِزَة وَحَقًّا أُحَدِّثكُمْ بِحَدِيثِ سَمِعْته مِنْ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قُلْنَا هَاتِ رَحِمَك اللَّه قَالَ : كُنَّا مَعَ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَمَعَنَا مُعَاذ بْن جَبَل عَاشِر عَشَرَة فَقُلْنَا يَا رَسُول اللَّه هَلْ مِنْ قَوْم أَعْظَم مِنَّا أَجْرًا ؟ آمَنَا بِاَللَّهِ وَاتَّبَعْنَاك قَالَ " مَا يَمْنَعكُمْ مِنْ ذَلِكَ وَرَسُول اللَّه بَيْن أَظْهُركُمْ يَأْتِيكُمْ بِالْوَحْيِ مِنْ السَّمَاء بَلْ قَوْم بَعْدكُمْ يَأْتِيهِمْ كِتَاب مِنْ بَيْن لَوْحَيْنِ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ وَيَعْمَلُونَ بِمَا فِيهِ أُولَئِكَ أَعْظَم مِنْكُمْ أَجْرًا " مَرَّتَيْنِ - ثُمَّ رَوَاهُ مِنْ حَدِيث ضَمْرَة بْن رَبِيعَة عَنْ مَرْزُوق بْن نَافِع عَنْ صَالِح بْن جُبَيْر عَنْ أَبِي جُمْعَة بِنَحْوِهِ . وَهَذَا الْحَدِيث فِيهِ دَلَالَة عَلَى الْعَمَل بِالْوِجَادَةِ الَّتِي اِخْتَلَفَ فِيهَا أَهْل الْحَدِيث كَمَا قَرَّرْته فِي أَوَّل شَرْح الْبُخَارِيّ لِأَنَّهُ مَدَحَهُمْ عَلَى ذَلِكَ وَذَكَرَ أَنَّهُمْ أَعْظَم أَجْرًا مِنْ هَذِهِ الْحَيْثِيَّة لَا مُطْلَقًا وَكَذَا الْحَدِيث الْآخَر الَّذِي رَوَاهُ الْحَسَن بْن عَرَفَة الْعَبْدِيّ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيل بْن عَيَّاش الْحِمْصِيّ عَنْ الْمُغِيرَة بْن قَيْس التَّمِيمِيّ عَنْ عَمْرو بْن شُعَيْب عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ جَدّه قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ " أَيّ الْخَلْق أَعْجَب إِلَيْكُمْ إِيمَانًا ؟ قَالُوا الْمَلَائِكَة قَالَ " وَمَا لَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ وَهُمْ عِنْد رَبّهمْ " قَالُوا فَالنَّبِيُّونَ قَالَ " وَمَا لَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ وَالْوَحْي يَنْزِل عَلَيْهِمْ ؟ " قَالُوا فَنَحْنُ قَالَ " وَمَا لَكُمْ لَا تُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَنَا بَيْن أَظْهُركُمْ " قَالَ : فَقَالَ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ " أَلَا إِنَّ أَعْجَب الْخَلْق إِلَيَّ إِيمَانًا لَقَوْم يَكُونُونَ مِنْ بَعْدكُمْ يَجِدُونَ صُحُفًا فِيهَا كِتَاب يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا فِيهَا " قَالَ أَبُو حَاتِم الرَّازِيّ : الْمُغِيرَة بْن قَيْس الْبَصْرِيّ مُنْكَر الْحَدِيث" قُلْت " وَلَكِنْ قَدْ رَوَى أَبُو يَعْلَى فِي مُسْنَده وَابْن مَرْدَوَيْهِ فِي تَفْسِيره وَالْحَاكِم فِي مُسْتَدْرَكه مِنْ حَدِيث مُحَمَّد بْن حُمَيْد - وَفِيهِ ضَعْف - عَنْ زَيْد بْن أَسْلَمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عُمَر عَنْ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِمِثْلِهِ أَوْ نَحْوه . وَقَالَ الْحَاكِم صَحِيح الْإِسْنَاد وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ وَقَدْ رُوِيَ نَحْوه عَنْ أَنَس بْن مَالِك مَرْفُوعًا وَاَللَّه أَعْلَم وَقَالَ اِبْن أَبِي حَاتِم حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّه بْن مُحَمَّد الْمُسْنَدِيّ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاق بْن إِدْرِيس أَخْبَرَنِي إِبْرَاهِيم بْن جَعْفَر بْن مَحْمُود بْن سَلَمَة الْأَنْصَارِيّ أَخْبَرَنِي جَعْفَر بْن مَحْمُود عَنْ جَدَّته بَدِيلَة بِنْت أَسْلَمَ قَالَتْ : صَلَّيْت الظُّهْر أَوْ الْعَصْر فِي مَسْجِد بَنِي حَارِثَة فَاسْتَقْبَلْنَا مَسْجِد إِيلِيَاء فَصَلَّيْنَا سَجْدَتَيْنِ ثُمَّ جَاءَنَا مَنْ يُخْبِرنَا أَنَّ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَدْ اِسْتَقْبَلَ الْبَيْت الْحَرَام فَتَحَوَّلَ النِّسَاء مَكَان الرِّجَال وَالرِّجَال مَكَان النِّسَاء فَصَلَّيْنَا السَّجْدَتَيْنِ الْبَاقِيَتَيْنِ وَنَحْنُ مُسْتَقْبِلُونَ الْبَيْت الْحَرَام قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيم فَحَدَّثَنِي رِجَال مِنْ بَنِي حَارِثَة أَنَّ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ حِين بَلَغَهُ ذَلِكَ قَالَ " أُولَئِكَ قَوْم آمَنُوا بِالْغَيْبِ" هَذَا حَدِيث غَرِيب مِنْ هَذَا الْوَجْه .
وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَقَالَ اِبْن عَبَّاس وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاة أَيْ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاة بِفُرُوضِهَا وَقَالَ الضَّحَّاك عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس إِقَامَة الصَّلَاة إِتْمَام الرُّكُوع وَالسُّجُود وَالتِّلَاوَة وَالْخُشُوع وَالْإِقْبَال عَلَيْهَا فِيهَا وَقَالَ قَتَادَة إِقَامَة الصَّلَاة الْمُحَافَظَة عَلَى مَوَاقِيتهَا وَوُضُوئِهَا وَرُكُوعهَا وَسُجُودهَا . وَقَالَ مُقَاتِل بْن حَيَّان : إِقَامَتهَا الْمُحَافَظَة عَلَى مَوَاقِيتهَا وَإِسْبَاغ الطَّهُور بِهَا وَتَمَام رُكُوعهَا وَسُجُودهَا وَتِلَاوَة الْقُرْآن فِيهَا وَالتَّشَهُّد وَالصَّلَاة عَلَى النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَهَذَا إِقَامَتهَا . وَقَالَ عَلِيّ بْن أَبِي طَلْحَة وَغَيْره عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس " وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ " قَالَ زَكَاة أَمْوَالهمْ وَقَالَ السُّدِّيّ عَنْ أَبِي مَالِك وَعَنْ أَبِي صَالِح عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس وَعَنْ مُرَّة عَنْ اِبْن مَسْعُود وَعَنْ أُنَاس مِنْ أَصْحَاب رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ " وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ " قَالَ نَفَقَة الرَّجُل عَلَى أَهْله وَهَذَا قَبْل أَنْ تَنْزِل الزَّكَاة وَقَالَ جُوَيْبِر عَنْ الضَّحَّاك : كَانَتْ النَّفَقَات قُرْبَانًا يَتَقَرَّبُونَ بِهَا إِلَى اللَّه عَلَى قَدْر مَيْسَرَتهمْ وَجَهْدهمْ حَتَّى نَزَلَتْ فَرَائِض الصَّدَقَات سَبْع آيَات فِي سُورَة بَرَاءَة مِمَّا يُذْكَر فِيهِنَّ الصَّدَقَات هُنَّ النَّاسِخَات الْمُثْبِتَات وَقَالَ قَتَادَة " وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ " فَأَنْفِقُوا مِمَّا أَعْطَاكُمْ اللَّه هَذِهِ الْأَمْوَال عَوَار وَوَدَائِع عِنْدك يَا اِبْن آدَم يُوشِك أَنْ تُفَارِقهَا . وَاخْتَارَ اِبْن جَرِير أَنَّ الْآيَة عَامَّة فِي الزَّكَاة وَالنَّفَقَات فَإِنَّهُ قَالَ وَأَوْلَى التَّأْوِيلَات وَأَحَقّهَا بِصِفَةِ الْقَوْم أَنْ يَكُونُوا لِجَمِيعِ اللَّازِم لَهُمْ فِي أَمْوَالهمْ مُؤَدِّينَ - زَكَاة كَانَتْ ذَلِكَ أَوْ نَفَقَة مَنْ لَزِمَتْهُ نَفَقَتُهُ مِنْ أَهْل أَوْ عِيَال وَغَيْرهمْ مِمَّنْ يَجِب عَلَيْهِمْ نَفَقَتُهُ بِالْقَرَابَةِ وَالْمِلْك وَغَيْر ذَلِكَ لِأَنَّ اللَّه تَعَالَى عَمَّ وَصْفهمْ وَمَدَحَهُمْ بِذَلِكَ وَكُلّ مِنْ الْإِنْفَاق وَالزَّكَاة مَمْدُوح بِهِ مَحْمُود عَلَيْهِ " قُلْت " كَثِيرًا مَا يَقْرُن اللَّهُ تَعَالَى بَيْن الصَّلَاة وَالْإِنْفَاق مِنْ الْأَمْوَال فَإِنَّ الصَّلَاة حَقّ اللَّه وَعِبَادَته وَهِيَ مُشْتَمِلَة عَلَى تَوْحِيده وَالثَّنَاء عَلَيْهِ وَتَمْجِيده وَالِابْتِهَال إِلَيْهِ وَدُعَائِهِ وَالتَّوَكُّل عَلَيْهِ وَالْإِنْفَاق هُوَ مِنْ الْإِحْسَان إِلَى الْمَخْلُوقِينَ بِالنَّفْعِ الْمُتَعَدِّي إِلَيْهِمْ وَأَوْلَى النَّاس بِذَلِكَ الْقَرَابَات وَالْأَهْلُونَ وَالْمَمَالِيك ثُمَّ الْأَجَانِب فَكُلّ مِنْ النَّفَقَات الْوَاجِبَة وَالزَّكَاة الْمَفْرُوضَة دَاخِل فِي قَوْله تَعَالَى " وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ " وَلِهَذَا ثَبَتَ فِي الصَّحِيحَيْنِ عَنْ اِبْن عُمَر رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهَا أَنَّ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ " بُنِيَ الْإِسْلَامُ عَلَى خَمْس : شَهَادَة أَنْ لَا إِلَه إِلَّا اللَّه وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُول اللَّه وَإِقَام الصَّلَاة وَإِيتَاء الزَّكَاة وَصَوْم رَمَضَان وَحَجّ الْبَيْت " وَالْأَحَادِيث فِي هَذَا كَثِيرَة وَأَصْلُ الصَّلَاة فِي كَلَام الْعَرَب الدُّعَاء . قَالَ الْأَعْشَى : لَهَا حَارِس لَا يَبْرَح الدَّهْرَ بَيْتَهَا وَإِنْ ذُبِحَتْ صَلَّى عَلَيْهَا وَزَمْزَمَا وَقَالَ أَيْضًا : وَقَابَلَهَا الرِّيح فِي دَنّهَا وَصَلَّى عَلَى دَنّهَا وَارْتَسَمْ أَنْشَدَهُمَا اِبْن جَرِير مُسْتَشْهِدًا عَلَى ذَلِكَ وَقَالَ الْآخَر وَهُوَ الْأَعْشَى أَيْضًا : تَقُول بِنْتِي وَقَدْ قَرَّبْت مُرْتَحِلًا يَا رَبّ جَنِّبْ أَبِي الْأَوْصَاب وَالْوَجَعَا عَلَيْك مِثْل الَّذِي صَلَّيْت فَاغْتَمِضِي نَوْمًا فَإِنَّ لِجَنْبِ الْمَرْء مُضْطَجَعًا يَقُول عَلَيْك مِنْ الدُّعَاء مِثْل الَّذِي دَعَيْته لِي . وَهَذَا ظَاهِر ثُمَّ اُسْتُعْمِلَتْ الصَّلَاة فِي الشَّرْع فِي ذَات الرُّكُوع وَالسُّجُود وَالْأَفْعَال الْمَخْصُوصَة فِي الْأَوْقَات الْمَخْصُوصَة بِشُرُوطِهَا الْمَعْرُوفَة وَصِفَاتهَا وَأَنْوَاعهَا الْمَشْهُورَة . قَالَ اِبْن جَرِير وَأَرَى أَنَّ الصَّلَاة سُمِّيَتْ صَلَاة لِأَنَّ الْمُصَلِّي يَتَعَرَّض لِاسْتِنْجَاحِ طُلْبَته مِنْ ثَوَاب اللَّه بِعَمَلِهِ مَعَ مَا يَسْأَل رَبّه مِنْ حَاجَاته وَقِيلَ هِيَ مُشْتَقَّة مِنْ الصَّلَوَيْنِ إِذَا تَحَرَّكَا فِي الصَّلَاة عِنْد الرُّكُوع وَالسُّجُود وَهُمَا عِرْقَانِ يَمْتَدَّانِ مِنْ الظَّهْر حَتَّى يَكْتَنِفَانِ عَجْب الذَّنَب وَمِنْهُ سُمِّيَ الْمُصَلِّي وَهُوَ التَّالِي لِلسَّابِقِ فِي حَلَبَة الْخَيْل وَفِيهِ نَظَر . وَقِيلَ هِيَ مُشْتَقَّة مِنْ الصَّلَى وَهُوَ الْمُلَازَمَة لِلشَّيْءِ مِنْ قَوْله تَعَالَى " لَا يَصْلَاهَا " أَيْ لَا يَلْزَمهَا وَيَدُوم فِيهَا" إِلَّا الْأَشْقَى " وَقِيلَ مُشْتَقَّة مِنْ تَصْلِيَة الْخَشَبَة فِي النَّار لِتَقُومَ كَمَا أَنَّ الْمُصَلِّي يُقَوِّم عِوَجه بِالصَّلَاةِ" إِنَّ الصَّلَاة تَنْهَى عَنْ الْفَحْشَاء وَالْمُنْكَر وَلَذِكْرُ اللَّه أَكْبَرُ " وَاشْتِقَاقهَا مِنْ الدُّعَاء أَصَحّ وَأَشْهَر وَاَللَّه أَعْلَم . وَأَمَّا الزَّكَاة فَسَيَأْتِي الْكَلَام عَلَيْهَا فِي مَ

I have been requested several times to join this debate. But to be honest I find it utterly futile. A big portion of the miracle of the Qur'aan lies in the language itself that is why the eluqent arabs at the time of the Prophet called him a sourcer and could not produce the likes of it.

Now for me to sit down and discuss the Qur'aan with people who do not even understand arabic grammar nor the language at all and rather rely on translation then that is a waste of time. The miracle is the Qur'aan and by censensus a translation of the Qur'aan is not the Qur'aan thus the biggest part of the miracle is lost in translation.

The omniscient creator of the universe gave you a brain did He not? What stops you from learning and understanding? Where you born knowing english?

If you are serious about knowning what is so special about the Qur'aan then learn and study arabic, if you just want to talk aimlessly then do not bother, simple as that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

So my starting question is why are Muslim so concerned and to me it obsessively so, about proving the Qu'ran is the word of God, proving its is unchanged etc etc and often it seems as if what it say is of little importance

Interesting question!!!!

Its because Non Muslims are so eager to waste their time proving that its not the word of God.
i.e: your thread!

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

The Qur’an uses the same notion of weight (mithqal) even with regard to a grain of mustard in the following verse so this example debunks any allegations about the foreknowledge of the sub-atomic particles in the Qur’an.

I think you gotta find the literal meaning from the dictionary for the word (zarah)ذرة first before making any argument

format_quote Originally Posted by Khaldun

Now for me to sit down and discuss the Qur'aan with people who do not even understand arabic grammar nor the language at all and rather rely on translation then that is a waste of time. The miracle is the Qur'aan and by censensus a translation of the Qur'aan is not the Qur'aan thus the biggest part of the miracle is lost in translation.

Exactly! I find that hard sometimes with some other people who don't know the language. Its exactly like describing how different colors looks like to a blind person.

I don't believe that it's necessary to know the Arabic language as a prerequisite to understanding that the Qur'an is a miracle.

The linguistic aspect (and indeed there are many other aspects) of the Qur'an's miraculous nature can still be explained in other languages by giving examples, as in the video I posted earlier on in the thread.

It can also be demonstrated to non-Arabs from a historical perspective by showing, for example, the reaction of such people as the companion 'Umar bin al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) who converted to Islam upon simply hearing the Qur'an, such was it's literary excellence. He was previously one of the staunchest enemies of Prophet Muhammad () and his message but when he heard it, he realised that this Qur'an can only have originated from a divine source. All of this despite the fact that the Arabs at the time had already reached the peak of linguistic eloquence. Truly then, when the Qur'an was revealed, they were well-placed to appreciate it's miraculous nature by recognising it's linguistic superiority beyond anything even they could have ever imagined.

Of course, 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) was not the only person to have realised it's miraculous nature upon simply hearing the Qur'an. Many other people also realised it including:

- Tufail ibn 'Amr
- al-Waleed ibn al-Mugheerah
- 'Utbah ibn Rabee'
- Unays al-Ghifaaree
- Jubayr ibn Mut'im

The list goes on.

So far, we seem to have been focusing on Qur'an as a literary miracle in this thread but it must be remembered that there are other aspects of the Qur'ans miraculous nature as well which do not get lost in translation. These aspects include:

- Prophecies contained in the Qur'an which later became fulfilled. These prophecies were not vague and general, but rather they were clear and specific.

- The fact that the Qur'an contains stories of the previous prophets even though Prophet Muhammad () had no recourse to this information.

- That the Qur'an contains accurate information which is consistent with scientific facts established centuries later. This aspect is exaggerated by some Muslims no doubt but nevertheless it definitely has a place as one aspect of the Qur'an's miraculous nature.

This list is not exhaustive and I haven't yet substantiated them in detail at this stage. There are several other aspects which I may mention later on.

Barak Allahu Feek brother Khaldun,

If there is interest in finding out whether it is true or not, people would explore it with honesty and deligent approach. This thread approach is more of sitting back and blindfolding oneself and saying "I dare you to show me the light".

Can the Quran be proven to be the word of God? Absolutely, and has been already, liguistically (by professional linguists) and scientifically (by scientists of all different fields who found that the information in the Quran achieved 100% accuracy till today, NOTHING was ever revised, while most of the hypothesis and theories suggested by greeks, christians, jews, romans always had failures and many of them were disproven later on). Demanding to satisfy philosophical standards of absolute truth and conditions of proof in matters of natural common sense is as futile and senseless as demanding people to be exonerated of a crime not by forensic evidence and analysis, but by tarot cards.

Four people arrive at a spot in the desert and notice several indications that a group was camping in the area. One points towards the hoofprints in the sand as proof that a camel exists and passed through, along with the various prints of humans obviously walking about in the area before continuing along side the camel's. Another points to the ashes in a hole in the ground as proof that there was a deliberate controlled camping fire. A third points to chicken bones and other leftovers littering the area as proof that they had a meal.

Fourth says he doesn't believes any creature can survive in such a place and decides that their "hypothesis" does not satisfy philosphical burdens of proof.

His choice.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

In think this is a fair response because it sets out clearly the Islamic position and this is the question we are exploring here. I have no issues with you stating this but showing it to be true absolutely is quite another story.

Quite a manufactured obstacle in my opinion. There is truth and its evidence. footprints in the sand are indicative proof that someone walked this path, and details of the print can describe his weight and gender and foot characteristics (professional trackers can get more information and even judge whether a woman is pregnant or not). If you wish to discount that because you only live on absolute truth, then you'll need to prove Christianity is true, and absolutely true. Otherwise you're contradicting yourself.

and of course Jesus told his followers to go into all the world and preach the Gospel and it would seem obvious he did not mean just for that time else there seems little point in such a command.

No he didn't, not only by Islamic sources, but by christian ones as well:

"After Jesus has equipped His disciples with authority, He sends them out and charges them: "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:5,6)"

"To a Canaanite woman, seeking help for her daughter, Jesus says: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)"

One further difficulty is that we have to consider is what about all the people who never had the Qu'ran so it could not have been a message for them?

People refusing to look at the quran does not qualify for not having had it. It has been written in one full book during the generation of the prophet's companions and printed and carried by muslim merchants and scholars all over the World. It reached the furthest points of Earth and today it's in every library and is available online in original form as well as translated in every conceivable language for free download.

If someone was remote enough and disconnected enough from the rest of the World not to have heard of Islam or Quran, the consensus is that he is not held liable for it. It was still a message to him, but he did not receive it without fault of his.

format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān

- Prophecies contained in the Qur'an which later became fulfilled. These prophecies were not vague and general, but rather they were clear and specific.

- The fact that the Qur'an contains stories of the previous prophets even though Prophet Muhammad () had no recourse to this information.

- That the Qur'an contains accurate information which is consistent with scientific facts established centuries later.

Specifically also that NOT A SINGLE ONE turned out false. This is important to consider and understand because of the useless arguments that come flicking philosophical theories of ancient greece as also prophecies and scientific hypothesis, some of which was correct.

The miracle is PERFECTION, no error, no reviews, no updates. Greek hypothesis was right one time out of ten, and christian and jewish scripture was rewritten many times by the declaration of the churches and religious authorities themselves.