Okay so on the question of absolute and objective and subjective morality.
Here is a small socratic analysis of the problem:
If god exists and if God is wholly good then he cannot do anything evil.
therefore, the rules that god has chosen are good OR since he is good the rules he chooses become Good to fit his good-ness.
If it is the latter than the rules are arbitrary and there is no absolute good or evil since they depend on the whim of god and can be otherwise.
If it is the former then there exists a moral good independent of God.
Either way God's existence does not change the metaphysical status of good or evil: his existence does not guarantee they exist absolutely nor does his exist entail that they are arbitrary; it is just as unknown.
Now, the obvious rejection is "well at least we have God to tell us whereas non-theists don't have god to tell them".
Well, sure. BUt just as there are many different religions competing there are many different ethical systems competing (for instance, consequentialism and deontological ethics) so the theist isn't any better off than the non-theist since the theist just picks their religion based on what makes sense to them and the atheist picks their ethical theory that they feel is most logical.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
-Plato
...
And I told you how the advantages aren't the only occassions where a polygamous relationship is allowed. It is also allowed for non-moral reasons.
Like what?
Lol. right. Islam isn't a practical religion I think.
Oh please, enough with your bull****. When it suits you principles matter but when anyone else says the same you mock them.
Great, you forgot about the first wife.
No you forget muslims are human beings that use their God-given common sense when following Islamic teachings.
Again, you forgot about the first wife. Also, you're quite funny. You seem to be saying that it only happens in those places but that is totally untrue. These marriages happen everywhere in all parts of the world; even in the west you find polygamous marriages that are done illegally.
If it's done illegaly it is considered haram.
Furthermore, you seem to be ignoring the cases where men just marry out of lustful purposes which is the point I am trying to get across.
So what? People commit adultery for the same reasons. How is polgyamous marriage worse than adultery in such cases?
But if it makes you feel better, we're supposed to control our lust in Islam.
Okay so I take it that your original statement about men psychologically being given a greater sexual appetite and that I should just accept that God made them like that was a totally irrelevant statement.
What? You decided to link that with homosexuality - not me.
So, you are telling me that if a new Islamic state was established with a caliph, and if he wanted to take some slaves, he would be forbidden to do so?
YES!
Yes Islam encourages freeing the slaves but it does not prohibit taking slaves altogether. If an Islamic state were to arise and the caliph wanted slave girl concubines and followed the guidelines set out by the Quran and Sunnah on how to get concubines, the most a scholar could do is remind the caliph that he ought to be freeing slaves but he cannot declare the caliph to be sinning since it appears to be a recommended act to end slavery but NOT mandatory.
Wow I didn't know you were a sheik! Where did you get your degree?
Anyway, even if it wasn't allowed now for whatever reason...it does not make all the concubine relationships throughout the centuries after the advent of Islam any less ridiculously immoral.
Now you're judging yesterday's standard by today's.
Face it pal, women get the short end of the stick when it comes to pretty much every religion ever.
Rofl. 20,000 american females convert to Islam and you come out with this crap?
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Marriage to satisfy sexual urges despite the wife's opposition.
Oh please, enough with your bull****. When it suits you principles matter but when anyone else says the same you mock them.
Well how should I respond when your response is "get a divorce" as if it was the easiest thing in the world. Like I said before it is far more effecient if the conditions were spelled out clearly in the Quran or even the Sunnah.
No you forget muslims are human beings that use their God-given common sense when following Islamic teachings.
Nothing common about common sense-unfortunately.
If it's done illegaly it is considered haram.
Doesn't matter the point is people do it anyway even if there isn't a 2:1 ration of women to men.
So what? People commit adultery for the same reasons. How is polgyamous marriage worse than adultery in such cases?
But if it makes you feel better, we're supposed to control our lust in Islam.
Lol, exactly. There isn't a significant difference between adultery and polygamous marriages.
What? You decided to link that with homosexuality - not me.
To show you the problem with what you said. But as you say, it's a side issue so forget it.
YES!
Wow I didn't know you were a sheik! Where did you get your degree?
Morals given by GOD are always absolute but those professed and given by any person are subject to change as and when required. One must follow GOD's morals always
Marriage to satisfy sexual urges despite the wife's opposition.
Well how should I respond when your response is "get a divorce" as if it was the easiest thing in the world. Like I said before it is far more effecient if the conditions were spelled out clearly in the Quran or even the Sunnah.
Nothing common about common sense-unfortunately.
Doesn't matter the point is people do it anyway even if there isn't a 2:1 ration of women to men.
Lol, exactly. There isn't a significant difference between adultery and polygamous marriages.
To show you the problem with what you said. But as you say, it's a side issue so forget it.
Both sites show that although its rare it is OKAY in principle.
I don't think this particular problem was much different back then.
People convert for all sorts of reasons.
I hope you realize that you have a lot of pre-misconceptions about Islam.
- You cannot marry a second wife if your first wife does not appreciate it. Besides, the ruling is that you have to be equal to all of your wives. If you can't commit to that, it is not permissible to marry a second wife. Marrying multiple wives is not for sexual urges. And even if it was, wouldn't you say non-Muslims were even more immoral because most of them don't even have the decency to marry? Anyway, the reason for this is that we have more women than men. Most women want a companion but cannot find one. This takes care of that problem but not against their wishes.
- The conditions are spelled out clearly in the Qur'an and Sunnah. You obviously have not been researching properly or have been misinformed. It's important you intake information with a critical mind, my dear brother in humanity. It's people like you that distort it. Otherwise, the Qur'an and Sunnah are literally perfect.
- If you're expecting all Muslims to follow their religion, then you should expect the same from your own faith. We're only humans and that is one (among many other things) that Islam recognizes. We are easily forgiven and religion has been made easy for us, believe it or not.
- There is quite a significant difference between polygamy and fornication. Believe me. First of all, 4 wives is the max. Where as, fornication is with literally tens of women. Look into society, boy.
- When people convert to Islam, there is no worldly affair here. It's between them and their Lord. For you to have insubstantial accusations is really unfair. You just slammed down a huge group of people. Have you not heard the quote "All generalizations are faults"? Looks like you need to brush up on your religion AND basic morals.
Also, I hope I have not offended you. Typically people have a more gentle approach when speaking in regards to religion but you were not confirming with us the points you mentioned. Rather, you just slammed them down as if you were a professional in this field. At any rate, I apologize for jumping between the exchange you had with bro aamirsaab.
I hope you realize that you have a lot of pre-misconceptions about Islam.
- You cannot marry a second wife if your first wife does not appreciate it. Besides, the ruling is that you have to be equal to all of your wives. If you can't commit to that, it is not permissible to marry a second wife. Marrying multiple wives is not for sexual urges. And even if it was, wouldn't you say non-Muslims were even more immoral because most of them don't even have the decency to marry? Anyway, the reason for this is that we have more women than men. Most women want a companion but cannot find one. This takes care of that problem but not against their wishes.
I don't think you were keeping up with the discussion so far. In any case, I provided 2 opinions from 2 scholars one of which is a moderate-type from islamonline & the other a more hardliner type from Islamqa. I appreciate your willingness to correct me but I think you ought to research your own faith before spreading falsehoods. Whether or not the first wife appreciates the second wife is irrelevant for the second marrage would still be valid. I challenge you to find credible scholars that state otherwise.
What non-muslims do is a red-herring so I will not address it & the last statistics i checked on world populations is that there are currently more men than women.
- The conditions are spelled out clearly in the Qur'an and Sunnah. You obviously have not been researching properly or have been misinformed. It's important you intake information with a critical mind, my dear brother in humanity. It's people like you that distort it. Otherwise, the Qur'an and Sunnah are literally perfect.
The only one spreading misconceptions is you since you are claiming that the wife needs to appreciate the second wife for the marriage to be sound however this isn't the case.
- If you're expecting all Muslims to follow their religion, then you should expect the same from your own faith. We're only humans and that is one (among many other things) that Islam recognizes. We are easily forgiven and religion has been made easy for us, believe it or not.
okay but I am not sure what this has to do with anything I've said.
- There is quite a significant difference between polygamy and fornication. Believe me. First of all, 4 wives is the max. Where as, fornication is with literally tens of women. Look into society, boy.
Well I said adultery and polygamous marriage.
- When people convert to Islam, there is no worldly affair here. It's between them and their Lord. For you to have insubstantial accusations is really unfair. You just slammed down a huge group of people. Have you not heard the quote "All generalizations are faults"? Looks like you need to brush up on your religion AND basic morals.
What was my accusation?
Also, I hope I have not offended you. Typically people have a more gentle approach when speaking in regards to religion but you were not confirming with us the points you mentioned. Rather, you just slammed them down as if you were a professional in this field. At any rate, I apologize for jumping between the exchange you had with bro aamirsaab.
No offense received and likewise none intended.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
-Plato
For the benefit of those here who can't read Latin...
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Indunisiy
Es femina! Expectabam quod esse virum.
Triste est dicere, sed vir sum. Nihilista verbum masculinum est, simile nauta e.g. nauta/nihilista bonus est. Ultima 'a' oculos fallet. Scio autem multas feminas qui sentiunt velut ego.
It's sad to say, but I am a guy. The word nihilist is in the masculine case, like the word sailor. For example, this sentence: the sailor/nihilist is good. The final 'a' gives a wrong impression. But I do know many women who think like I do.
Nihilista sum, ita dicta mihi decora esse videtur. Sed etiam, ludebam dictis.
I'm a nihilist, and so the words (for the name) seemed to me to be appropriate. But I was also just playing around with words.
Utirisne Latinam Classicam, Mediaevalem, Modernam, aut alias? Egomet utor Latinam Mediaevalem, simplicior quam Classica est. Versionem personalemque utor (mixta Italiana, Arabica, aliis linguis antiquisque), amo ludere linguabus/linguis.
Last edited by Al-Indunisiy; 06-22-2010 at 11:56 PM.
what exactly is the big problem with polygamy marriage brother lynx? look at the state of how non muslims carry on. if a man wants another woman in islam at least he has the decency to marry her and look after there kids. im so happy that Allah blessed me to be apart of this ummah. id rather be thrown in the hellfire rather then live a life as a dirty kafir with no morals.
what exactly is the big problem with polygamy marriage brother lynx? look at the state of how non muslims carry on. if a man wants another woman in islam at least he has the decency to marry her and look after there kids. im so happy that Allah blessed me to be apart of this ummah. id rather be thrown in the hellfire rather then live a life as a dirty kafir with no morals.
I don't have a problem with polygamy in itself. I just think it's wrong for someone to marry another wife/husband without seeking the permission of the first. And you know not every Kafir is so dirty and immoral ;p
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
-Plato
Why?
Quia iste Dominus universi. Toti subter voluntate sua.
Is this a bad thing?
Est res mala quia homines sunt fallibiles. Est possibilitas ibi errare.
Why?
Videas responsionem primam.
Okay...so why do you think Nazis were evil, with reference to God?
Nihil commentarius de me.
Ita responsiones mihi.
Last edited by Al-Indunisiy; 06-25-2010 at 09:30 AM.
Nihil deus nisi Allah, Muchammad est Nuntius Allahi.
Timeo quod: mea voluntas pro pace inter hominibus possit ferre me a Gehennam.
Re: For the benefit of those here who can't read Latin...
format_quote Originally Posted by nihil est
Triste est dicere, sed vir sum. Nihilista verbum masculinum est, simile nauta e.g. nauta/nihilista bonus est. Ultima 'a' oculos fallet. Scio autem multas feminas qui sentiunt velut ego.
It's sad to say, but I am a guy. The word nihilist is in the masculine case, like the word sailor. For example, this sentence: the sailor/nihilist is good. The final 'a' gives a wrong impression. But I do know many women who think like I do.
Nihilista sum, ita dicta mihi decora esse videtur. Sed etiam, ludebam dictis.
I'm a nihilist, and so the words (for the name) seemed to me to be appropriate. But I was also just playing around with words.
Mea culpa. My bad.
Nihil deus nisi Allah, Muchammad est Nuntius Allahi.
Timeo quod: mea voluntas pro pace inter hominibus possit ferre me a Gehennam.
God is beyond good and evil - morality is created by God - so the Lord of morality decides whats Good and bad.
peace
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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