After deciding to depart this forum and take from you the benefits of my insightful thought and sharp wit I find myself with a question which I am having difficulty to answer and knowing the answer lies amongst you I return for your help.
The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims and in considering what is happening has formed the view that there are two types of Muslim, Islamists and Muslims or radical Muslims and moderate Muslims. Words have been invented to describe the ‘bad’ Muslims and the ‘good’ Muslims. I came across an article on the Middle East Forum which Argued that "radical Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution."
My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?
The next question is, is Islam radical or moderate; is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?
If you believe that there is a radical Islam and a moderate Islam and radical Muslims and moderate Muslim; what is a moderate Muslim, what does he/she believe and do differently than the Islamist?
If there are radical and moderate Muslims, what percentage of the membership here is radical / moderate?
There is no such thing as Moderate Muslim or Extremist Muslim its just Muslim one who worships Allah (SWT) & all who say Moderate Muslim or Extremist Muslim are cowards working for the Zionists/Crusaders. How dare you Kafir call Muslims Extremists just becaues they are Muslims defening themselves in Afghanistan, Palestine & Iraq. May Allah (SWT) help the Mujahideen to crush the crusaders/zionists in all Muslim lands. Please dear Muslim Brothers & Sister don't say a hurtful thing like Moderate or Extremists we are all Muslims, all part of one family. A Muslim is required to defend his brother when someone talks about him behind his back. In Islam, Muslims should not do injustice to others nor do they tolerate any injustice to themselves. In their love and concern for each other, all Muslims are like one body, as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:
“when any part of the body suffers, the whole body feels the pain”.(Sahih Muslim)
There is no such thing as Moderate Muslim or Extremist Muslim its just Muslim one who worships Allah (SWT) & all who say Moderate Muslim or Extremist Muslim are cowards working for the Zionists/Crusaders. How dare you Kafir call Muslims Extremists just becaues they are Muslims defening themselves in Afghanistan, Palestine & Iraq. May Allah (SWT) help the Mujahideen to crush the crusaders/zionists in all Muslim lands. Please dear Muslim Brothers & Sister don't say a hurtful thing like Moderate or Extremists we are all Muslims, all part of one family. A Muslim is required to defend his brother when someone talks about him behind his back. In Islam, Muslims should not do injustice to others nor do they tolerate any injustice to themselves. In their love and concern for each other, all Muslims are like one body, as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:
“when any part of the body suffers, the whole body feels the pain”.(Sahih Muslim)
Of course ideally there should be no such thing as "moderate", "extremist", "modern", "traditional", and any other label. Ideally, there should only be Muslims, who have a united word.
But unfortunately, the reality is not the same as what is ideal. Unfortunately, Muslims are broken up into seventy-three different sects. Muslims have differences with each other in virtually each and every aspect of the Religion, including the most fundamental pillar of Islam, which is Tawheed.
So we need to accept this reality that there are indeed Muslims who go to different extremes. There are some Muslims who go to the extreme of negligence. They do not feel it necessary to abide by the divine injunctions and ordinances of the Quran and Sunnah. They are totally secularized and only Muslim in name. This is one extreme.
Another extreme you have Muslims who add things to the religion. They invent extreme forms of worship like Sufism. They go to extremes in asceticism. And likewise in this category are the extremists who do acts of terrorism and killing of innocents in the name of "Jihaad".
However, the Muslims who stick to the Quran and the Sunnah follow the middle path between the extremes. They strictly follow only the Quran and Sunnah, not taking anything away from it, and likewise not adding anything to it.
Moderate Islam = no Salah.....no Shariah.....no modesty......
Moderate Islam = A diluted form of Islam
Troof. As someone who studies Political Science, a social science, it is remarkable how people with such high credentials, such as PhDs and so on, are yet so utterly ignorant of Islam.
They define a civilized society as one that possess what is called "self-expression" values, such as high levels of individualism, homosexuality, all forms of freedom of speech, including blasphemy, and so on. So, what they are implying, is that until you have homosexuals, blasphemy, porn, and people who only care about themselves, then you are backward.
And essentially a Muslim who accepts this, such as "progressive Muslims", "secular Muslims", etc, they are moderate. On the other hand, if you want Sunnah, and you want to rule off the Qur'an and Sunnah you are backward, terrorist, fundamentalist, etc. Which, to me is fine if you choose to believe that (talking about non-Muslims), my problem is when they try and force their way of life on others, in particular Muslim countries.
labels stick if you allow them, i dont know of the sect and this is my ignorance.
i started from scratch a book and four walls, i had already been tought to read the quran at an early age but the first time i actually read the quran i was 26.
i remember at uni i would go to the mosque with my friends but did not affiliate with the islamic society at the uni, we would see the same people day in and day out but religiously the sermons that i heard were what we had in common.
there are three mosques i visit and i know they are different in teachings but the only thing i know are the sermons before prayer.. this ramadan the main mosque imam said he was against the other mosque and he would never take advice from them or be with them, so i no longer use that mosque.
the other mosque that he talked about was very close to where i used to work and i never ever heard mention of the main mosque or the imam.
all my relatives visit the main mosque so i guess i pretty much lost out on a lot but to me that was the difference between moderate and extreme.
lol anybody can call me anything they like but i didnt want to know the 73 devisions just as much as i can about the book and the things that it has lead me to hear.
Moderate Muslims are those Muslims who follow the Religion, without going into extreme, and without falling into neglect. They follow a middle course. In this sense, moderate Muslims are the true Muslims, who are truly following in the footsteps of our beloved Prophet, Muhammad Mustafaa صلى اللّه عليه وآله وسلم
Muslims are very diverse, after all, there are seventy-three different sects among the Muslims. The Prophet Muhammad صلى اللّه عليه وسلم said that out of all the sects, there is only one which is saved. It was asked to him which one is that, to which he replied: "The like of that which today I and my companions are upon."
Jibrael you have sidetracked from the actual idea of this thread and you assisted in spreading deception to non-Muslims. The spirit of Thinker's (OP) original question has to do with the false idea that the reason Moderate Muslims are not violent is because they do not actually follow Islam and that Muslims who are violent, are violent because they follow Islam stringently.
The idea of the questioner is that the Quran and the Hadith are radical books, and Muslims that actually follow the Quran and the Hadith correctly are therefore radical. Thinker suggested that Muslims who do not think that they should correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith are the moderate Muslims.
And you have helped to confuse him.
You attempted to explain a point about Islam that really has little to do with the spirit of Thinker's question.
In order to make this tangential point, you stated that moderate Muslims are the ones that correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith; in other words you stated that moderate Muslims are the true Muslims.
Thinker suggested that moderate Muslims are Muslims that do not correctly following the Quran and the Hadith.
You stated that moderate Muslims are Muslims that do correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith.
You both have different definitions of the same term.
However there is no organized group of people that define themselves as "Moderate Muslims".
Unfortunately many Muslims like you frequently use the term. The term is now taken to be a legitimate term because Muslims like you agree that "moderate Muslims" exist.
I understand the meaning of the Hadith that you cited but Thinker does not need to know that many Muslims follow different paths besides the Quran and the Hadith and that true Muslims follow the Quran and the Hadith. And you should not have defined the path of the prophet and his companions as the "Moderate" path. That is the language that non-Muslims have concocted. "Straight" path, or perhaps "Middle" path, is the language of Islam.
The prophet was not a "Moderate Muslim"
NON-MUSLIMS DO NOT DEFINE "MODERATE MUSLIMS" THE SAME WAY AS YOU DO. AND THEY ALSO DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR DEFINITION. WHAT THEY UNDERSTAND IS THAT MUSLIMS USE THE TERM AND THEREFOR THEY THINK THAT THE TERM IS LEGITIMATE.
Furthermore, you stated that Muslims are divided into 73 sects.
Your statement did not promote the idea that you intended.
Your intended idea was that there are 72 groups of Muslims that do not correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith and that these Muslims are radical because they do not correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith.
When non-Muslims here that Islam is divided into 73 sects they understand that the Quran and the Hadith can be interpreted in 73 different ways and that "radical" Muslims are interpreting the Quran and the Hadith the correct way.
In any event I don't agree with you that there are 73 different sects of Islam. 90% of Muslims are Sunni Muslims. Within the Sunni Muslim group probably 30% also subscribe to the advise of a particular scholar. But all of these scholars give advise based upon the Quran and the Hadith.
You made the claim that there are 73 different sects. I would like for you to list these sects because I don't agree with you.
Abû Hurayrah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said “This religion is easy. No one becomes harsh and strict in the religion without it overwhelming him. So fulfill your duties as best you can and rejoice. Rely upon the efforts of the morning and the evening and a little at night and you will reach your goal.” [Sahîh al-Bukharî]
These words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) defines for us the concept of moderation in its proper Islamic context. When it comes to understanding the principles of Islamic Law, our definitions must be drawn from established sources and not purely from the discretion of the individual. Otherwise, our definition might yield a practical model that justifies nothing but itself. Many of our accepted and established principles have begun to take forms that represent only one narrow vision and that are unable to cope with the many demands of Islamic work and propagation.
The Prophet (peace be upon him) says: “This religion is easy.” Ease is moderation. So our religion is moderate and we as a nation of people are moderate.
Allah says: “Thus We have made you a moderate nation”. [Quran Sûrah al-Baqarah 2: 143]
a moderate Muslim is one who believes in "there is god god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger" adding no more than what has been approved by Allah and his messenger (peace be upon him) and taking away nothing less what Allah and his messneger have approved.
a moderate muslim is one who sticks to all commands of Islamic law, be it obedience to paretns, prayer, jihad, upholding ties pf kinship, neighborliness, polygamy, ...everything that Islam comes with and the servant believes and practices, this is what a moderate Muslim is.
a moderate Muslim is not one defined by what hate mongers define him as, in an attempt t make him feel belittled and sow doubt in the hearts concerning his lord and religion.
a moderate Muslim is not one who gives up their prayer or starts drinking and committing zina becuase everyone else thinks its extreme to do so or not to do so..
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
In any event I don't agree with you that there are 73 different sects of Islam.
Brother, it's not my personal opinion that there will be 73 sects among the Muslims, it is an authentic Hadeeth which I already quoted. How can you reject an authentic Hadeeth of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم
Don't you know that anyone who rejects even a single authentic Hadeeth is on the brink of destruction?
90% of Muslims are Sunni Muslims. Within the Sunni Muslim group probably 30% also subscribe to the advise of a particular scholar. But all of these scholars give advise based upon the Quran and the Hadith.
90% of Muslims are not Sunni. In fact, vast majority of Muslims are people of innovation.
You made the claim that there are 73 different sects. I would like for you to list these sects because I don't agree with you.
There are Seventy-three sects, but actually, there are thousands of sub-sects which branch out of the deviated seventy-two sects. The Muslim historians compiled lists of these seventy-two sects. For example, Abdul Qaahir al Baghdadi compiled a list of seventy-two deviated sects in his book "Al-Farq Baynal Farq".
you can Google "List of 73 sects in Islam" and you will find it, insha Allah.
Abû Hurayrah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said “This religion is easy. No one becomes harsh and strict in the religion without it overwhelming him. So fulfill your duties as best you can and rejoice. Rely upon the efforts of the morning and the evening and a little at night and you will reach your goal.” [Sahîh al-Bukharî]
These words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) defines for us the concept of moderation in its proper Islamic context. When it comes to understanding the principles of Islamic Law, our definitions must be drawn from established sources and not purely from the discretion of the individual. Otherwise, our definition might yield a practical model that justifies nothing but itself. Many of our accepted and established principles have begun to take forms that represent only one narrow vision and that are unable to cope with the many demands of Islamic work and propagation.
The Prophet (peace be upon him) says: “This religion is easy.” Ease is moderation. So our religion is moderate and we as a nation of people are moderate.
Allah says: “Thus We have made you a moderate nation”. [Quran Sûrah al-Baqarah 2: 143]
Qatada, I will try to reiterate this point and explain it in different terms.
The Quran teaches, "do not go into excess in your religion". And personally I interpret the teachings of Islam to be an ideology of moderation. But as I have pointed out now a number of times, when Christians here the term "Moderation" in reference to Islam they don't understand that you should "not go into excess", what they understand is that "you should not properly follow".
If you want to express the idea that Islam is a religion of moderation, please, use a different term than "Moderate" Muslim. The term moderate has a different meaning in this society than what you are trying to convey (I'm not sure how many times I have stressed this point).
There is nothing wrong with expressing moderation in Islam with a different term than "Moderate Muslim".
And the media has promoted this confusion to the extent that they have trick us into misconstruing our deen. You quoted the Quranic verse 2:143 with these terms: "Thus We have made you a moderate nation".
I have never heard this verse translated in this fashion.
Yusuf Ali translates 2:143 "Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced"
Picktall translates 2:143 "Thus We have appointed you a middle nation"
M Asad translates 2:143 "And thus have We willed you to be a community of the middle way"
You see "middle way" implies that you follow the way fully, but the way is a specific way that is within boundaries and does not go into excess. Whereas the term "moderate" implies that one should not actually fully follow.
Qatada, I will try to reiterate this point and explain it in different terms.
The Quran teaches, "do not go into excess in your religion". And personally I interpret the teachings of Islam to be an ideology of moderation. But as I have pointed out now a number of times, when Christians here the term "Moderation" in reference to Islam they don't understand that you should "not go into excess", what they understand is that "you should not properly follow".
If you want to express the idea that Islam is a religion of moderation, please, use a different term than "Moderate" Muslim. The term moderate has a different meaning in this society than what you are trying to convey (I'm not sure how many times I have stressed this point).
There is nothing wrong with expressing moderation in Islam with a different term than "Moderate Muslim".
And the media has promoted this confusion to the extent that they have trick us into misconstruing our deen. You quoted the Quranic verse 2:143 with these terms: "Thus We have made you a moderate nation".
I have never heard this verse translated in this fashion.
Yusuf Ali translates 2:143 "Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced"
Picktall translates 2:143 "Thus We have appointed you a middle nation"
M Asad translates 2:143 "And thus have We willed you to be a community of the middle way"
You see "middle way" implies that you follow the way fully, but the way is a specific way that is within boundaries and does not go into excess. Whereas the term "moderate" implies that one should not actually fully follow.
I'm fully aware of the western mindset/objective in regard to 'moderate Islam'. However, we Muslims have more right to defining the religion as it has been defined by God and His Messenger themselves (whether you agree or otherwise.) Since a religion/way of life is based on its teachings, and not on what other outsider people define it as.
In regard to the word used in the Qur'an ayah 2:143, the word "Wasatta" is used, which means a "middle way". Moderate can also be used a definition of the word "Wasatta."
Brother, it's not my personal opinion that there will be 73 sects among the Muslims, it is an authentic Hadeeth which I already quoted.
The Hadith states that "there will be". You stated that there "are". So please list them for me.
90% of Muslims are not Sunni. In fact, vast majority of Muslims are people of innovation.
The vast majority of Musilm are not devout. Many of us model our behavior on cultural mores as opposed to the teachings of Islam. But there is a difference between a person who does not care to correctly practice Islam and a person who makes a conscious effort to practice a variant form of Islam.
But actually this is kind of off topic.
There are Seventy-three sects, but actually, there are thousands of sub-sects which branch out of the deviated seventy-two sects. The Muslim historians compiled lists of these seventy-two sects. For example, Abdul Qaahir al Baghdadi compiled a list of seventy-two deviated sects in his book "Al-Farq Baynal Farq".
you can Google "List of 73 sects in Islam" and you will find it, insha Allah.
I Googled the topic and I can't find the list. If you will, please cut and paste the list so that we can examine it
we Muslims have more right to defining the religion as it has been defined by God and His Messenger themselves (whether you agree or otherwise.) Since a religion/way of life is based on its teachings, and not on what other outsider people define it as.
In regard to the word used in the Qur'an ayah 2:143, the word "Wasatta" is used, which means a "middle way". Moderate can also be used a definition of the word "Wasatta."
God and his messenger use the word "middle way", and then you use word "moderate" in order to fit the definition that non-Muslims have given to you.
You should follow your own advice.
God and his messenger use the word "middle way", and then you use word "moderate" in order to fit the definition that non-Muslims have given to you.
You should follow your own advice.
The word 'moderate' has an implication of something not leaning to either extreme. Whatever extreme that might be.
i.e. "That is a moderately cool drink" i.e. it is neither too hot, neither too cold.
That is the pure root of the word Moderate. And that is the definition of the word Wasatt - that which is in the Middle - that which is inclining to neither extreme.
The Hadith states that "there will be". You stated that there "are". So please list them for me.
You should really study Arabic and then study the Qur'an and Sunnah. Without knowing these, you are getting a false sense of confidence.
To answer your point; "there will be" and "there are" is said the same way in Arabic. Since there are only 2 tenses in arabic: Past tense, and Present-Future tense. The exception is if the letter "seen" or the word "sawfa" is added before a statement - which means 'soon'/future tense.
The hadith mentioned by bro Jibrael is as follows;
رواه أبو داود ( 4597 ) وغيره وصححه الحاكم ( 1 / 128 )
It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise...
Narrated by Abu Dawood (4597) and others; classed as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/128),
That letter "seen" made the statement into future tense [coming from the word "sawfa"], so the sects can continue to arise in future generations.
But actually this is kind of off topic.
I Googled the topic and I can't find the list. If you will, please cut and paste the list so that we can examine it
There are many sects which have formed throughout our 1,400 year history. All of them stray from the pure teachings of the Qur'an and prophet Muhammad. This is why they are criticized. If someone cannot name all 73, it may be because there will be more to come in the future.
PS: If anyones interested in finding out what more Letters mean in the Arabic language, and their meanings - they can see this link;
The word 'moderate' has an implication of something not leaning to either extreme. Whatever extreme that might be.
i.e. "That is a moderately cool drink" i.e. it is neither too hot, neither too cold.
That is the pure root of the word Moderate. And that is the definition of the word Wasatt - that which is in the Middle - that which is inclining to neither extreme.
Hence my definition is correct.
The pure root of the word is not what is questionable. The issue is that non-Muslims don't define the word when applied to Islam the same way as you do.
"MODERATE MUSLIM" IS A TERM THAT NON-MUSLIMS HAVE ADOPTED TO DISCREDIT ISLAM
YOU HAVE ADDED TO THEIR CONFUSION.
STOP USING THE TERM.
THERE ARE OTHER TERMS THAT YOU CAN USE TO RELATE A SIMILAR, AND LESS CONFUSING UNDERSTANDING.
You should really study Arabic and then study the Qur'an and Sunnah. Without knowing these, you are getting a false sense of confidence.
To answer your point; "there will be" and "there are" is said the same way in Arabic. Since there are only 2 tenses in arabic: Past tense, and Present-Future tense. The exception is if the letter "seen" or the word "sawfa" is added before a statement - which means 'soon'/future tense.
You just agreed with the exact point that I made.
The Hadith refers to the future. But Jibrael stated that there are 73 sects right now.
Jibrael does not know if the Hadith is referring to our current time or a time in the future.
But since he stated unequivocally that it is referring to our current time.
bro kidcanman yes, non muslims have used it to discredit Islam and i don't like using it either.
However, the Muslims on this site used it to 'fight against' those who claim 'moderate Islam' is to give up Islamic values.
The people on this site wanted to say that 'Moderate Islam is the Full Quran and the Full Prophetic Sunnah' since God and His Messenger told us that this is the Moderate/Middle way.
The Hadith refers to the future. But Jibrael stated that there are 73 sects right now.
Jibrael does not know if the Hadith is referring to our current time or a time in the future.
But since he stated unequivocally that it is referring to our current time.
I would like for him to show me his proof.
I've quoted the hadith which states it is the future tense.
رواه أبو داود ( 4597 ) وغيره وصححه الحاكم ( 1 / 128 )
It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise...
Narrated by Abu Dawood (4597) and others; classed as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/128),
Even if we look at the hadith logically, Angel Jibreel would not say that there are 73 sects in Islam during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), since there was only one group at that time - Prophet Muhammad and his companions way only. That was the Ahlus Sunnah (the people of the Prophetic way.)
Only later on different sects formed as history progressed.
Even if we look at the hadith logically, Angel Jibreel would not say that there are 73 sects in Islam during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), since there was only one group at that time - Prophet Muhammad and his companions way only. That was the Ahlus Sunnah (the people of the Prophetic way.)
Only later on different sects formed as history progressed.
I did not refer to the angel Jibreel. I referred to the poster Jibrael. Jibrael insisted, in post #60, that there are 73 different sects in our current time. I would like to know how he determined that the Hadith is referring to our current time.
There are indeed 73 sects which emerged in the early history of Islaam. Now however, there are literally THOUSANDS of sects and parties...which have branched out of the main 72 divisions.
I don't have the full list with me, but here are some of the common deviated sects:
1. Qadariyyah -who deny the Qadr
2. Rafidhah (Shi'ah) -who bear enmity toward the Companions
3. Murji'ah - the most common today are the Maturidi Hanafis -believe faith is static, neither increases nor decreases
4. Khawaarij (including the Ibadhi sect in Oman) -believe major sins takes one out of Islaam
5. Zaidi Shi'ah (mostly in Yemen)
6. Isma'ili Shi'ah - divided into Nizari and Musta'ali branches - represented today by Agha Khani and Bohra subsects
7. Sufi sects, orders, and suborders (Naqshbandi, Qadiri, Chishti, Suhruwardi, Shadhili, Tijani, Rifa'i, Niamatullahi, Bekhtashi, etc.)
8. Ashari and Neo-Jahmis (who deny the Attributes of Allaah except for about 7 odd)
9. Mu'tazilah (who believe the Quraan is created and not the speech of Allaah)
10. Mujbirah (who deny free will and believe a person is forced)
11. Nawaasib (who bear enmity towards Ahlul Bayt)
12. Akhbari Twelver Shi'ah (who believe the Quraan has been corrupted)
13. Hizb-ut-Tahrir (who deny punishment of the grave)
14. Ahlul Quraan (who deny the Sunnah and Ahadeeth)
15. Parwaizi (who reject the importance of the Sunnah)
16. Submitters/19ers (who believe Rashad Khalifah to be a Messenger of Allaah)
17. Qadiyanis/Ahmadis (who believe Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani to be a Prophet)
18. Nation of Islam (who believe Elijah Poole to be a prophet)
19. Jama'at-ul-Muslimeen (a sect which believes anyone who is not part of their Jamaa'ah is out of Islaam)
20. Habashis
21. Ikhwan-ul-Muslimeen/Jama'ati Islaami
22. Barailwis (who promote grave worshiping and other innovations)
23. Deobandis (who believe in Wahdatul Wujood) -divided into Hayati and Mamati subsects
24. Nusairis
25. Dhahiris
From the top of my head I counted at least 25 major sects. But trust me, there are a lot more than that.
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yes, non muslims have used it to discredit Islam and i don't like using it either. 
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