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    'Abd-al Latif's Avatar
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    Authority of the Hadeeth

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    I'm a bit heretical in that I reject the Hadith and only follow the Qu'ran.
    But the Qur'an tells you to follow the hadeeth. It's a part of belief.

    "He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." [Quran 4:80]

    "O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger..." [Quran 4:59]

    "...And let those who oppose the Messenger's commandment beware, lest some trial or affliction befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.”" [Quran 24:63]

    "But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission." [Quran 4:65]

    There are more verses like these that command Muslims to obey hadeeth.
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    Authority of the Hadeeth

    And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.”
    [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]



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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif View Post
    But the Qur'an tells you to follow the hadeeth. It's a part of belief.

    "He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." [Quran 4:80]

    "O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger..." [Quran 4:59]

    "...And let those who oppose the Messenger's commandment beware, lest some trial or affliction befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.”" [Quran 24:63]

    "But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission." [Quran 4:65]

    There are more verses like these that command Muslims to obey hadeeth.
    None of those verses command us to follow the Hadiths. They command us to obey Muhammed (pbuh). If he doesn't believe the hadiths accurately account for what Muhammed did or commanded, he wouldn't be deliberately disobedient.

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Welcome, GodisOne

    I hope you will soon realise that the two important sources for our religion are the Qur'an and sunnah (the sunnah is recorded in the hadeeth), which go together, hand in hand, both to be followed, none in isolation of the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    None of those verses command us to follow the Hadiths. They command us to obey Muhammed (pbuh). If he doesn't believe the hadiths accurately account for what Muhammed did or commanded, he wouldn't be deliberately disobedient.
    The hadeeth are the most accurate records with chains of transmission, and classified so we know which is weak etc. No other literature of that period has been transmitted and recorded so accurately with full "audit trail". We cannot reject the hadeeth wholesale, once we know a hadeeth is authentic.

    How would you obey him without the ahadeeth? Which more accurate record than the hadeeth is there that records his sayings and orders?
    Authority of the Hadeeth


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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaanah View Post
    I hope you will soon realise that the two important sources for our religion are the Qur'an and sunnah (the sunnah is recorded in the hadeeth), which go together, hand in hand, both to be followed, none in isolation of the other.
    There are a number of muslims that reject the Hadith.

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    None of those verses command us to follow the Hadiths. They command us to obey Muhammed (pbuh). If he doesn't believe the hadiths accurately account for what Muhammed did or commanded, he wouldn't be deliberately disobedient.
    Then what in the world do you classify as hadeeth? Hadeeth is the sayings, actions and approvals of the Messenger. The hadeeth that we know today are the recorded forms of his actions, sayings and approvals. Believing in the Messenger and all what he came with is a part of belief, how can one say the shahaadah (i.e. There is none to be worshipped except Allah and Muhammed is His messenger) and claim to believe in the Messenger but doesn't believe in anything that he said or did? How can you make a separation between the person and his actions? Did Allah send a person carrying His message to someone who isn't fit to be followed?

    It's like I tell you that your father was the best businessman that ever lived and you need to follow his example if you want a successful career. Your father dies one day so you write everything in a book to preserve his success, for yourself and for future generations to be as successful. Is there any difference between seeing your father's success in real life and writing a book about it?

    Then what is the difference between obeying the Messenger's example and everything he came with while he was alive and calling the recorded forms of his life hadeeth after he passes away? Allah is far removed from sending a man whose character, conduct and actions we cannot take from. The Qur'an was revealed to him so there must be something about him that Allah saw that no one else in the creation possessed: the best and the most noblest of character. He was the best of all the prophets and Messengers, he is the best of creation and the most beloved to Allah from all of His creation. Allah sent the best message, the Qur'an, to the best of creation because only the best of creation possesses all those qualities that the rest of creation must take as an example and obey in all matters if they hope to possess any good. To disbelieve in this is disbelief in the Qur'an so your argument is flawed and is the opposite to what the sahaba and righteous scholars have understood hadeeth to be.

    From the understanding of the sahaba, these verses are precisely telling us to follow hadeeth and from this, one can see that rejecting hadeeth is disbelief in Islam.
    Last edited by 'Abd-al Latif; 04-29-2012 at 12:53 AM.
    Authority of the Hadeeth

    And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.”
    [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]



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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif View Post
    Then what in the world do you classify as hadeeth? Hadeeth is the sayings, actions and approvals of the Messenger. The hadeeth that we know today are the recorded forms of his actions, sayings and approvals. Believing in the Messenger and all what he came with is a part of belief, how can one say the shahaadah (i.e. There is none to be worshipped except Allah and Muhammed is His messenger) and claim to believe in the Messenger but doesn't believe in anything that he said or did? How can you make a separation between the person and his actions? Did Allah send a person carrying His message to someone who isn't fit to be followed?

    It's like I tell you that your father was the best businessman that ever lived and you need to follow his example if you want a successful career. Your father dies one day so you write everything in a book to preserve his success, for yourself and for future generations to be as successful. Is there any difference between seeing your father's success in real life and writing a book about it?

    Then what is the difference between obeying the Messenger's example and everything he came with while he was alive and calling the recorded forms of his life hadeeth after he passes away? Allah is far removed from sending a man whose character, conduct and actions we cannot take from. The Qur'an was revealed to him so there must be something about him that Allah saw that no one else in the creation possessed: the best and the most noblest of character. He was the best of all the prophets and Messengers, he is the best of creation and the most beloved to Allah from all of His creation. Allah sent the best message, the Qur'an, to the best of creation because only the best of creation possesses all those qualities that the rest of creation must take as an example and obey in all matters if they hope to possess any good. To disbelieve in this is disbelief in the Qur'an so your argument is flawed and is the opposite to what the sahaba and righteous scholars have understood hadeeth to be.

    From the understanding of the sahaba, these verses are precisely telling us to follow hadeeth and from this one can see that rejecting hadeeth is disbelief in Islam.
    [3:19] Allah bears witness that there is no God but He — and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge — Maintainer of justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.



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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    [3:19] Allah bears witness that there is no God but He — and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge — Maintainer of justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.
    Following the Hadith and trying to imitate Muhammed is idolatry. There I said it.

    Saying that one cannot attain full knowledge of Allah through the Qu'ran alone is to deny that that it is the final revelation of Allah.

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    [3:19] Allah bears witness that there is no God but He — and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge — Maintainer of justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.


    And what is this verse supposed to prove?

    You're argument still holds no weight because Allah says in another verse: "He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them" (Quran 4:80)
    Authority of the Hadeeth

    And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.”
    [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]



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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    Following the Hadith and trying to imitate Muhammed is idolatry. There I said it.

    Saying that one cannot attain full knowledge of Allah through the Qu'ran alone is to deny that that it is the final revelation of Allah.

    "He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..."
    [Quran 4:80]

    Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."[ Al Qur'aan 3:31]

    The prophet Sallaahu Alaayhi wa salam is commanded to say 'If you (really) love Allah then follow me'..

    Worshipping Muhammad (P) is idoltry, but we are not worshipping him, and Allaah SWT has told us in the Qur'aan, that he is a perfect example, perfect in what way? Did the companions worship him Sallaahu 'Alaayhi wa salam, by following him? his teachings? Those same companions have told us in narrations how they saw/observe the prophet (SAW) doing so and so task in daily life.

    Akhi, how do you perform salaah? or how do you perform wudhu/ablution? etc etc..
    Last edited by Ğħαrєєвαħ; 04-29-2012 at 12:42 AM.
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    "Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    Following the Hadith and trying to imitate Muhammed is idolatry. There I said it.

    Saying that one cannot attain full knowledge of Allah through the Qu'ran alone is to deny that that it is the final revelation of Allah.
    Bro, the highest authority is Allah. Then from the creation it is His Messenger. We do not worship the Messenger, bow down to him or exaggerate his praise because Muhammad himself has forbidden this. During the lifetime of the Messenger a man asked to bow to him but Muhammad forbade him. Another exaggerated his praise, the Messenger forbade him and yet another time a man equalled his praise to Allah and the Messenger got so angry that his faced turned red and he said in his own words "call me the slave of Allah" and strictly forbade anyone from ever doing that. Idolatry is if we treated Muhammed as a God besides Allah, which is not the case.

    Saying that one can gain full knowledge of Allah through the Quran alone is a mistake and ignorance, not a denial of his revelation. The hadeeth are the explanation of Qur'an and detail the laws that were revealed. This is what Qur'an says, the Messenger has said, his companions and all the righteous scholars after them.
    Last edited by 'Abd-al Latif; 04-29-2012 at 12:39 AM.
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    Authority of the Hadeeth

    And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.”
    [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]



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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    Saying that one cannot attain full knowledge of Allah through the Qu'ran alone is to deny that that it is the final revelation of Allah.

    No, totally wrong.The Quran wasn't revealed to let you attain full knowledge of Allah. To say so is almost borderline shirk akhi.

    Before I answer this question, let's note that if the Qur'an had been revealed all at once, people would ask: "Why was it sent down all at once and not in stages?" The ultimate answer to such questions lies with God, the All-Wise and All-Knowing. Our decisions are based on a very limited viewpoint, as we are limited creatures. The Divine Decree, on the other hand, considers everything—our moral and spiritual well-being, worldly happiness, future and present—and weaves the whole into a single pattern that is coherent with Grace and Wisdom. Thus, the benefit we derive from the Divine commandments is immeasurable, and the blessing that flows from obeying them is beyond our imagination. And so it is with the method that God chose to reveal the Qur'an.The Revelation began when it was time for humanity to reach maturity. The Prophet's mission and that of his community was to become the most complete, progressive, and dynamic exemplars for humanity, and to achieve such a level of advancement that they would be the masters and guides for all subsequent people. But these reformers first had to be reformed. Their qualities and characters had been conditioned by the surrounding non-Islamic environment in which their people had been living for centuries. Islam was to turn their good qualities into qualities of unsurpassed excellence, and to purge their bad qualities and habits in such a way that they would never reappear.
    If the Qur'an had been revealed all at once, how would they have reacted to its prohibitions and commandments? Certainly, they would have been unable to understand, let alone accept and apply, them in the ideal manner. This lack of gradualism would have been self-defeating, as proven by history: Wherever Islam was taken, it spread gradually but steadily, and so became firmly established.
    We see people all around us who cannot free themselves from their bad habits and addictions. If you confined such people, even if you convinced them to abandon their habits for their own benefit, they would not be happy with you. On the contrary, they would feel angry, bored, and irritated. They would complain and try to escape from your program of reform, so that they could revert to their habits as soon as possible. All the arguments and documented evidence of specialists and experts would not persuade them to change. Even those who were cured occasionally suffer a relapse. Indeed, some of those who campaign against such harmful habits as smoking and consuming alcohol still indulge in them!
    Remember that the Qur'an came to change not one or two habits; it came to change everything: ways of living and dying, marrying, buying and selling, settling disputes, and how to perceive one's relation with the Creator, among others. Given the scope of the change envisioned, we can begin to grasp why it was revealed in stages.
    The gradual revelation of the Qur'an prepared the people to accept and then live the virtues, excellent manners, and lofty aspirations it demanded. That so much was achieved in only 23 years is a miracle. As Said Nursi said: "I wonder if the scholars of today went to the Arabian peninsula, could they accomplish in 100 years even 1 percent of what the Prophet accomplished in 1 year?" Current campaigns to eradicate such a peripheral vice as smoking employ famous scholars, individuals, institutions, and the whole network of mass media—yet they still result in overall failure. If 20 fewer people die on the road per year after a campaign against alcohol, it is considered a great success. What the Prophet accomplished, at God's bidding, over 23 years far surpasses what all of humanity has managed to achieve since that time.
    The Qur'an was revealed in stages so that its audience could understand, internalize, and apply its prohibitions, commands, and reforms. Revelation came when the need for guidance arose, without discouraging or grinding down morale: warning and condemnation preceded prohibition, appeal and exhortation preceded command. For instance, alcohol and other intoxicating drinks were prohibited in three or four stages; female infanticide in two stages; uniting warring tribes and building up a close-knit society based on brotherhood, thus raising the collective consciousness, in several stages. These difficult reforms were not gestured at or expressed in slogans—they were achieved.
    Today, we design our projects according to past experience and future possibilities. Taking possible social and economic fluctuations into account, we make our plans flexible in order to leave room for any necessary modifications. Just like a young tree, the early Muslims grew slowly, adapting gradually to new conditions and thus developing naturally. Every day new people were coming into Islam. New Muslims were learning many things, gaining in Islamic consciousness, training themselves to act upon Islam, and thus becoming members of a society rather than separate individuals or mutually hostile clans. Their characters and personalities, their whole lives, were reshaped and reordered in accordance with Islamic precepts and the Qur'anic guidance.
    Such was the magnitude of their spiritual, moral, intellectual, and even physical regeneration. This transformation was achieved through a balanced synthesis of worldly life and spiritual advancement, and it happened gradually, slowly yet continuously, and harmoniously.

    Source: http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/9186/9


    As you can see, nowhere does it mention that one can gain total knowledge of Allah... what one can do is draw closer to Allah - thru deed and intent. Distinction.

    Btw, I'm an Indian Muslim too akhi

    Scimi

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    No, totally wrong.The Quran wasn't revealed to let you attain full knowledge of Allah. To say so is almost borderline shirk akhi.



    As you can see, nowhere does it mention that one can gain total knowledge of Allah... what one can do is draw closer to Allah - thru deed and intent. Distinction.

    Btw, I'm an Indian Muslim too akhi

    Scimi

    Sorry my mistake.

    I meant that one can learn all about the oneness of Allah, and Allah's message to humanity through the Qu'ran.

    Namaste: aap kahaan se hain bhai?
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    Re: Hello from Canada

    GodIsOne, please may I ask:

    How long ago did you convert?
    Were you always a hadeeth rejector, or did you reject them some time after converting?
    What type of Muslims were you in contact around the time of your conversion? Did they reject hadeeth too?

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    There are a number of muslims that reject the Hadith.
    In Islam, we don't go by the number of people that do something. We go by what Allah and His messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have said to us. Incidentally, the overwhelming majority of Muslims, follow Qur'an and sunnah (as recorded in the hadeeth) as ordered by Allah and his prophet

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    Following the Hadith and trying to imitate Muhammed is idolatry. There I said it.
    But what you said goes against the Qur'an, which you say you follow. In the Qur'an Allah tells us that in the messenger is a beautiful example for us to follow, and as per the ayah sister Ghareebah quoted, Allah tells the Prophet to command us to follow him. According to what you're saying then, the Qur'an (Allah forbid) is telling us to commit idolatry. The Prophet is our role model, and we should do our utmost to do all the good things he did. To say that doing so is idolatry, is wrong. I can understand that you've come from a polytheistic background, but please don't let that push you into going to the other extreme of believing that having the prophet as our role model to follow and to strive to follow him and obey and copy his example is idolatry. Allah sent all the Prophets as warners and bearers of Good tidings for mankind, and to be followed.

    "Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah." (33:21)
    Last edited by Insaanah; 04-29-2012 at 06:28 PM. Reason: Typo
    Authority of the Hadeeth


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    Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaanah View Post
    According to what you're saying then, the Qur'an (Allah forbid) is telling us to commit idolatry.
    As another poster has already mentioned, I don't believe that the Hadith is free of political corruption and manipulation, and I don't believe that the Hadith accurately reflects Allah's messenger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaanah View Post
    I can understand that you've come from a polytheistic background, but please don't let that push you into going to the other extreme of believing that having the prophet as our role model to follow and to strive to follow him and obey and copy his example is idolatry.
    I just call it like I see it.

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    AsSalaamu Alaaykum akhi,

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    As another poster has already mentioned, I don't believe that the Hadith is free of political corruption and manipulation, and I don't believe that the Hadith accurately reflects Allah's messenger.
    Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

    What do you make of this verse? When Allaah commands Rasoollalah (SAW) to say 'If you love Allaah then follow me'?

    How would you follow him Sallaahu 'Alaayhi wa salam?
    Authority of the Hadeeth

    "Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    are you guys seriously debating about hadiths?

    this man just converted to islam recently and he did not seem to get support from his peers so he sought support here and you guys are condemning his actions or belief about hadith already?

    all of you should be ashamed of yourselves...

    this isn't a time to give him a lecture and burden him with extraneous material...

    give him support act like brother to him that's all he's here for.

    Inshallah he will come to acknowledge the hadith IN DUE TIME. we don't need to start telling him every little thing which is right and wrong from the start..thats only going to repel him from islam..

    seriously, this forum has disappointed me.

    also none of you should be questioning his relationship with God and what his reasons are for why he doesn't believe in hadiths. He has every right to be sceptical cause they are prone to manipulation but we don't need to start lecturing him about the science of the hadiths and chain of transmissions etc..
    His reason for not accepting them will be b/w him and God to no one else and God will deal with him most justly.

    let him be for now and welcome the dude.
    Last edited by syed1; 04-29-2012 at 08:32 PM.

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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Im disturbed at the lack of respect you are showing towards our Nabi, peace be upon him. The ONLY way to paradise is to follow Allah AND his beloved Messenger, peace be upon him, there are no two ways about it

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    GodIsOne's Avatar
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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Vision View Post
    Im disturbed at the lack of respect you are showing towards our Nabi, peace be upon him. The ONLY way to paradise is to follow Allah AND his beloved Messenger, peace be upon him, there are no two ways about it
    If I felt that the Hadith truly and accurately reflected the words of Allah's messenger I would follow it just as I follow the Qu'ran.

    I haven't disrespected Allah's messenger in any way, I'm sorry that you can't tolerate other schools of thought. We might be the minority of Muslims but Quarnism is a very real sect of Islam.

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    Aprender's Avatar
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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by GodIsOne View Post
    I haven't disrespected Allah's messenger in any way, I'm sorry that you can't tolerate other schools of thought. We might be the minority of Muslims but Quarnism is a very real sect of Islam.
    It is very sad to hear this continued talk of sects even though Allah warns us not to fall into this but it is what it is.

    Anyway, welcome to the message board brother. Very happy to have you here with us. I am also a revert to Islam.

    May Allah grant you happiness. Ameen.

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    Futuwwa's Avatar
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    Re: Hello from Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Vision View Post
    Im disturbed at the lack of respect you are showing towards our Nabi, peace be upon him. The ONLY way to paradise is to follow Allah AND his beloved Messenger, peace be upon him, there are no two ways about it
    Maybe you shouldn't act like you are empowered to determine what constitutes disrespect and what does not.

    We're never going to be united as an ummah if we keep chasing away people because of minor differences

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