Authority of the Hadeeth

[Muhammad]

And why was this thread turned to one on the authority of the hadith? All I'm calling for is tolerance and inclusion of GodIsOne.

There was a discussion on this topic in GodIsOne's introduction thread, so I moved those posts here so that the original thread would not go off-topic.

 

[Scimitar]

As far as I know, full knowledge of Allah is only private to Allah. Claiming you fully know/can_know Allah, is claiming to have something proper to Allah. To That's why - if I understood well - bro Scimitar described it as something similar to shirk. Correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Absolutely right.

To claim knowledge of the unseen is what the sorcerers and magicians do - and they are most definitely guilty of shirk. There are lengthy explanations on this in SUnan Abu Dawood.

However, today - some people often mis-translate and mis-interrpet Quran and hadeeth to fit in with their own understanding - this is not the path to knowledge, but the path to corruption.

For example, some people will read ayahs from the Quran and then claim they have found a secret or something - maybe even claim to know everything about Allah - as if full knowledge of Allah can be contained in a book. Kinda wrong don't you think?

Anyone who claims knowledge of the unseen, is guilty of claiming Asma was Sifaat of Allah, and therefore are partnering themselves up with Allah - that is shirk. Allah is unseen...

I mentioned "almost borderline shirk" because I doubt that the OP realised this was what they were unwittingly claiming. However, it seems that they had no intention of being a polytheist - so, repentance is still a very good option. May Allah accept it, Ameen.

Scimi

 

[Scimitar]

My problem with the hadiths is that they date to 250 years after muhamad died. I often wonder why it took so long for them to get recorded.

It's understandable that you feel this way - which is why i have taken the time to answer your question.

Moving on, this Art of Narration was lost after the Niceans had managed to hijack Christianity... But in Arabia - a land where even the most adventurous wouldn't dare travel into because it was known as the "wilderness" (unhospitable land too difficult for normal folk to survive in) and was widely beleived to be populated by barbaric tribes; the Art of Narrative was not only preserved - but improved upon by the nomads and the dwellers of the land itself. Their culture and customs were largely unaffecgted by the progress seen in the world at the time. Infact, Arabia was known as the old world - simply because the oldest teachings were still practiced there (not talking religion here - but cultural and traditional ones - such as the art of narration).

When people mention "lost arts" and "Lost knowledge" they really should look towards the Arabian cultural and traditional practices of a bygone era - especially because the Arabs were the last people to hold onto the old teachings, in the world.

back to hadeeth, In Arabia, the legal requirements that were expected for a narration to be believable and trusted, required a certain amount of scientific process. We now have something called "the chain of narration" which must be trusted through its various narrators - meaning that if even one narrator had been found out to have told just one small little white lie - his testimony and narration of the story, would be classed as unauthentic... Kinda harsh you may think. But given the sensitivity of the materials/narrations, it is very necessary to make sure we don't accept lies and liars as givers of truth.

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is only those who believe not in the Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars."
[al-Nahl 16:105]

Ibn Kathir said:

“Then Allah tells us that His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not a fabricator or a liar, because only the most evil of people who do not believe in the signs of Allah, the kafirs and heretics who are known amongst the people for telling lies, tell lies about Allah and His Messenger(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was the most truthful of people, the most righteous, the most perfect in knowledge, action, faith and certain belief. He was known amongst his people for his truthfulness; none of them doubted that, to such an extent that he was known amongst them as ‘al-Ameen (the trustworthy) Muhammad.’
So, when Heraclius, the ruler of Rome, asked Abu Sufyan about the characteristics of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), one of the things he asked was, ‘Did you ever accuse him of lying before he said what he said?’ He said, ‘No.’ Heraclius said: ‘If he refrained from telling lies about people he would not go and tell lies about Allah’
(Tafseer Ibn Kathir, 2/588)

2. It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; and when he is entrusted with something, he betrays that trust.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 33; Muslim, 59)

al-Nawawi said:

“What the commentators and most of the scholars said – which is correct – is that this means that these characteristics are the characteristics of hypocrisy, and the one who has these characteristics resembles the hypocrites in this sense."
The words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), ‘He is a pure hypocrite’ mean that he strongly resembles the hypocrites because of these characteristics.

Some of the scholars said: this is concerning one in whom these characteristics predominate; one in whom these characteristics rarely appear is not included in this. This is the favored view concerning the meaning of this hadeeth. Imam Abu ‘Eesa al-Tirmidhi (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated this meaning from the scholars and said: ‘The meaning of this according to the scholars is hypocrisy in one's actions.’”
(Sharh Muslim, 2/46-47)

The most evil kinds of lies are:

1. Lies told about Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
This is the most serious kind of lie, and the one who does this is subject to a severe warning. Some of the scholars said that the one who does this is to be denounced as a kafir.

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: ‘Verily, those who invent a lie against Allah will never be successful’”
[Yunus 10:69]

It was narrated that ‘Ali (may Allah be pleased with him): “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ‘Do not tell lies about me. Whoever tells lies about me, let him enter the Fire.’”
(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 106).

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever tells lies about me, let him take his place in Hell.”
(narrated by al-Bukhari, 110; Muslim, 3).

Ibn al-Qayyim said:
“… ‘Whoever tells lies about me, let him take his place in Hell’, i.e., let him take his place in Hell where he will abide and settle; it is not like a manzil or camp where he stays for a while and then moves on.”
(Tareeq al-Hijratayn, p. 169)

And thus, we see why we have such a stringent methodology in recording hadeeth. No one wants to propagate a false hadeeth and end up in the hellfire.

Over the past millennia, we have seen that the Art of Narration has been taken very seriously - so seriously infact, that it is no longer called the respectful term of "The Art of Narration" but now, has a much more appropriate and respectful term borne out of improving the methodology of collecting hadeeth... it is now called "The Science of Hadeeth" due to the stringent approach in methodology.

Anyone who rejects the sahih (authentic) hadeeth has disobeyed Allah and HIS messenger, may peace and blessing be upon him and his family, Ameen.

Scimi

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Well, the hafs Is not word for word identical to the warsh, which is not word for word identical to the sana quran, which is not word for word identical to the Ciaro quran.

My problem with the hadiths is that they date to 250 years after muhamad died. I often wonder why it took so long for them to get recorded.

What is interesting to note is that both of these are Christian missionary claims, which of course have been refuted multiple times. The first one was already addressed in your previous thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134312592-discussion-orangeduck.html

And the second one has been dealt with here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/12485-ahadeeth-myths.html

More about early hadeeth collections:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/hadith.html

My parents never placed my emphasis on the hadiths when we were growing up, so I never really read and studied them till only a few years ago.

Then you must by now be familiar with the science of Hadith in Islam - generations of scholars have laid down a whole system of classification and criticism of hadeeth, where both the body of the hadeeth along with its multiple chains of narration are analysed, and each chain examined for the frequency of narration, continuity to the Prophet (may Allaah's peace and blessings be upon him) and every narrator evaluated for his honesty and strength of memory... if we employed this methodology to the study of the Bible, we would very soon note the huge disparity in authenticity.

In his introduction to Hafidh Ibn Hajar's Al Isabah fee Tamyeez_is_ Sahaaba, Dr A.Sprenger has paid a glowing tribute to the scholars of the Traditions (hadith):

"The glory of the literature of the Mohammedans is its literary biography. There is no nation, nor has there been any which like them has during twelve centuries recorded the life of every man of letters. If the biographical records of the Musalmans were collected, we should probably have accounts of the lives of half a million of distinguished persons. and it would be found that there is not a decennium of their history, nor a place of importance which has not its representatives." Sprenger vol.1, pg.1.

Taken from 'Ali Miyan Nadwi's "Saviors of Islamic Spirit", chapter on the Traditionists and Jurists of Islam with minor spelling changes.

One only has to visit threads like these to appreciate the depth and complexity of this science:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/37234-rules-governing-criticism-hadeeth.html

Most of them are rather dull to read in my opinion (not everyone if going to agree with me).

That is unfortunate, assuming of course, that you have read the thousands upon thousands of hadeeth to make such a bold judgement? I am sure that even a non-Muslim like yourself can appreciate many beautiful teachings conveyed through the hadeeth. We've had numerous threads here where people can share their favourite hadeeth, perhaps you might like to visit those to refresh your memory:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/134282688-my-favourite-hadeeth.html

Regards.