Authority of the Hadeeth
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IslamicRevival
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Re: Hello from Canada
Its got nothing to do with tolerance, the fact you are questioning the fundamental beliefs whilst being a Muslim is shocking to me. You cannot say its idolatry to imitate our Nabi peace be upon him, That's showing disrespect to our Nabi peace be upon him and i take it to heart.
Maybe you should take a reality check. Minor differences? Were talking about the bare fundamentals of the deen here. To reject Hadith is bad enough but to claim is idolatry to follow and imitate Allah's Messenger, peace and blessing be upon him is bordering on blasphemous.
Its got nothing to do with tolerance, the fact you are questioning the fundamental beliefs whilst being a Muslim is shocking to me. You cannot say its idolatry to imitate our Nabi peace be upon him, That's showing disrespect to our Nabi peace be upon him and i take it to heart.
Maybe you should take a reality check. Minor differences? Were talking about the bare fundamentals of the deen here. To reject Hadith is bad enough but to claim is idolatry to follow and imitate Allah's Messenger, peace and blessing be upon him is bordering on blasphemous.
Hulk
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Re: Hello from Canada
Brother, it is a big step to convert from one religion to another. I'm sure it's not a decision that the brother made overnight. He says he rejects hadith because he doesn't believe they are free from corruption. It is unlikely that he would change his opinion within a few forum posts. Instead we can tell him to learn more about the science behind hadith. If we want to make it a topic of discussion then it should be in its proper place in one of the sub forums, not in someone's introduction.
How many muslim converts fell out of islam because fellow muslims pressure them that so and so is haram? I don't think anyone here wants to a contributing factor for someone to leave Islam. I think the fact that alcohol was made haram gradually instead of instantaneously should at least teach us that there is a journey involved in achieving what is right.
How many times did our Prophet pbuh reminded the non-muslims of Allah? He was patient and kind throughout the way. The irony in telling the people to follow the sunnah of the Prophet in an impatient manner.
Brother, it is a big step to convert from one religion to another. I'm sure it's not a decision that the brother made overnight. He says he rejects hadith because he doesn't believe they are free from corruption. It is unlikely that he would change his opinion within a few forum posts. Instead we can tell him to learn more about the science behind hadith. If we want to make it a topic of discussion then it should be in its proper place in one of the sub forums, not in someone's introduction.
How many muslim converts fell out of islam because fellow muslims pressure them that so and so is haram? I don't think anyone here wants to a contributing factor for someone to leave Islam. I think the fact that alcohol was made haram gradually instead of instantaneously should at least teach us that there is a journey involved in achieving what is right.
How many times did our Prophet pbuh reminded the non-muslims of Allah? He was patient and kind throughout the way. The irony in telling the people to follow the sunnah of the Prophet in an impatient manner.
Re: Hello from Canada
, ahadeeth are also revelation, although they are not as authentic as the Quran, we must go by the strong ahadeeth or else we wouldn't know how to pray or the sunan and such. Speaking of worship, how exactly do you worship? :hmm:
, ahadeeth are also revelation, although they are not as authentic as the Quran, we must go by the strong ahadeeth or else we wouldn't know how to pray or the sunan and such. Speaking of worship, how exactly do you worship? :hmm:Re: Hello from Canada
Fundamental beliefs? There has always been a group of muslims that reject the Hadith. I don't care how small that population of muslims might be, don't talk to me like some outsider because I choose not to follow your fundamentalism. I let religious fundamentalism kill my faith in spirituality and religion once, I'm not going to let it happen again.
My view of this obsession with imitating Allah's messenger as idolatrous is mine and mine alone, it has nothing to do with any of you. I'm not forcing or even asking any of you to accept my view as fact, think for yourselves. Blasphemy is wilfully slandering and disrespecting Allah's messenger which I have definitely not done. Choosing not to follow the Hadith does not in any way make me less faithful to Allah and his messenger than you are.
Fundamental beliefs? There has always been a group of muslims that reject the Hadith. I don't care how small that population of muslims might be, don't talk to me like some outsider because I choose not to follow your fundamentalism. I let religious fundamentalism kill my faith in spirituality and religion once, I'm not going to let it happen again.
My view of this obsession with imitating Allah's messenger as idolatrous is mine and mine alone, it has nothing to do with any of you. I'm not forcing or even asking any of you to accept my view as fact, think for yourselves. Blasphemy is wilfully slandering and disrespecting Allah's messenger which I have definitely not done. Choosing not to follow the Hadith does not in any way make me less faithful to Allah and his messenger than you are.
aadil77
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Re: Hello from Canada
brother
I can understand why you would think imitating the prophet is 'idolatrous' especially coming from the background you're from.
Many times in history people have gone astray and turned people they revere into Gods. The Christians did the same with their love of prophet Isa. Now in Islam some sects can give this sort of image as well, when I was young I remember a barelwi (deviant sect person) telling me to love the prophet more than our Creator - It was shocking but I didn't know any better. This sort of excessiveness can put you off from following the prophet at all. Keep your connection with Allah Al-Mighty, glorify Him and praise Him - this is better than those who just continually send salams on the prophet.
What you have to remember is that prophet Muhammad (saws) is one of thousands of prophets and messengers sent to mankind. Their main task is to deliver a message to their people, some brought revelation others simply followed previous revelation but what they all will have done is put that message into practice. They will have explained the laws and practices that Allah will have wanted them to follow. Previously people were taught through verbal narration but eventually the message would be lost down the line, now we're fortunate that the sayings of the prophet have been recorded for us to use. Everything the prophet did or said was inline with divine revelation, we need this revelation to practice islam. Many vital explanations of verses of the Qur'an, many vital practices are found in the hadith.
You don't need to imitate the prophet with regards to the optional things he did but what is commanded in the hadith is part of revelation and has to be followed.
Like sis Ghareebah quoted:
"He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." [Quran 4:80]
Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."[ Al Qur'aan 3:31]
brotherI can understand why you would think imitating the prophet is 'idolatrous' especially coming from the background you're from.
Many times in history people have gone astray and turned people they revere into Gods. The Christians did the same with their love of prophet Isa. Now in Islam some sects can give this sort of image as well, when I was young I remember a barelwi (deviant sect person) telling me to love the prophet more than our Creator - It was shocking but I didn't know any better. This sort of excessiveness can put you off from following the prophet at all. Keep your connection with Allah Al-Mighty, glorify Him and praise Him - this is better than those who just continually send salams on the prophet.
What you have to remember is that prophet Muhammad (saws) is one of thousands of prophets and messengers sent to mankind. Their main task is to deliver a message to their people, some brought revelation others simply followed previous revelation but what they all will have done is put that message into practice. They will have explained the laws and practices that Allah will have wanted them to follow. Previously people were taught through verbal narration but eventually the message would be lost down the line, now we're fortunate that the sayings of the prophet have been recorded for us to use. Everything the prophet did or said was inline with divine revelation, we need this revelation to practice islam. Many vital explanations of verses of the Qur'an, many vital practices are found in the hadith.
You don't need to imitate the prophet with regards to the optional things he did but what is commanded in the hadith is part of revelation and has to be followed.
Like sis Ghareebah quoted:
"He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." [Quran 4:80]
Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."[ Al Qur'aan 3:31]
IslamicRevival
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Re: Hello from Canada
I really don't care what brand of Islam you follow. Anyone who recites the Shahadah is a Muslim but to reject the Sunnah, ways of our Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is a dangerous thing to do. Its only out of love for our Nabi peace be upon him that im even posting in this thread.
I agree, but..
Allah has commanded us to follow our Nabi, peace be upon him.
'He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allâh, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as a watcher over them'
Surah An Nisa, Verse 80
..but you say its idolatry to imitate him..
How can you be faithful to Allah (and his Messenger peace be upon him) by disobeying him.
Doesn't add up
I really don't care what brand of Islam you follow. Anyone who recites the Shahadah is a Muslim but to reject the Sunnah, ways of our Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is a dangerous thing to do. Its only out of love for our Nabi peace be upon him that im even posting in this thread.
I agree, but..
Allah has commanded us to follow our Nabi, peace be upon him.
'He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allâh, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as a watcher over them'
Surah An Nisa, Verse 80
..but you say its idolatry to imitate him..
How can you be faithful to Allah (and his Messenger peace be upon him) by disobeying him.
Doesn't add up
Insaanah
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Re: Hello from Canada
Was just reading another thread and saw this:
If by Yasoo' you mean Isa alayhissalaam, (Jesus, peace be upon him), then this is what the Qur'an states:
Pickthall
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-(4:157)
(Underlining mine)
I pray that over time inshaa'Allah, you will be open to what is said, and that you learn much from your stay on the forum, and that Allah guides us all, ameen.
Peace.
Was just reading another thread and saw this:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134312592-discussion-orangeduck-4.html#post1513029
If by Yasoo' you mean Isa alayhissalaam, (Jesus, peace be upon him), then this is what the Qur'an states:
Pickthall
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-(4:157)
(Underlining mine)
I pray that over time inshaa'Allah, you will be open to what is said, and that you learn much from your stay on the forum, and that Allah guides us all, ameen.
Peace.
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Re: Hello from Canada
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" Luke(23:46)
يَسُوعَ said this before he ascended to the heavens and Allah. يَسُوعَ did not die from the crucifixion so he was not technically crucified "but it appeared so unto them"
It takes several days of agony and torment for people to die, while يَسُوعَ willingly chose to ascend to heaven after just 6 hours. He was not crucified "but it appeared so unto them"
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" Luke(23:46)
يَسُوعَ said this before he ascended to the heavens and Allah. يَسُوعَ did not die from the crucifixion so he was not technically crucified "but it appeared so unto them"
It takes several days of agony and torment for people to die, while يَسُوعَ willingly chose to ascend to heaven after just 6 hours. He was not crucified "but it appeared so unto them"
Insaanah
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Re: Hello from Canada
Interestingly, the ayat says, they did not kill Isa (Alayhissalaam), and they did not crucify him. It mentions the two seperately. It is not saying that they didn't kill him but he was crucified without dying. It's saying neither was he killed, and neither was he crucified. None of those two things happened, at all. So he was not crucified without dying, and then raised up. It means he was not crucified at all.
This is what happened:
Sahih International
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. (4:158)
Peace.
Interestingly, the ayat says, they did not kill Isa (Alayhissalaam), and they did not crucify him. It mentions the two seperately. It is not saying that they didn't kill him but he was crucified without dying. It's saying neither was he killed, and neither was he crucified. None of those two things happened, at all. So he was not crucified without dying, and then raised up. It means he was not crucified at all.
This is what happened:
Sahih International
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. (4:158)
Peace.
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Futuwwa
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Re: Hello from Canada
Matter of definition, not fact. There is no part in the shahada about recognizing the authenticity and authority of the hadiths.
Matter of definition, not fact. There is no part in the shahada about recognizing the authenticity and authority of the hadiths.
Futuwwa
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Re: Hello from Canada
Shirk? Like, how? Does not compute. How does believing the Quran to be sufficient constitute worshiping others beside Allah?
Shirk is an accusation so lightly thrown around nowadays that it's becoming a meaningless buzzword.
Shirk? Like, how? Does not compute. How does believing the Quran to be sufficient constitute worshiping others beside Allah?
Shirk is an accusation so lightly thrown around nowadays that it's becoming a meaningless buzzword.
Re: Hello from Canada
Crucifixion is a form of execution.
If someone fails to die a humiliating death from it then that means he was not crucified... it's that simple
The mention of two seperate instances "Killed or Crucified" is due to the fact that the Babylonian Talmud says Yeshua was hanged, and that many Rabbinical leaders spread deliberate lies about his "execution" to make themselves look self-righteous.
Crucifixion is a form of execution.
If someone fails to die a humiliating death from it then that means he was not crucified... it's that simple
The mention of two seperate instances "Killed or Crucified" is due to the fact that the Babylonian Talmud says Yeshua was hanged, and that many Rabbinical leaders spread deliberate lies about his "execution" to make themselves look self-righteous.
Insaanah
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Re: Hello from Canada
When you accept Muhammad :saws: as the messenger of Allah (which is part of the shahadah, and one of the conditions of the shahadah is acceptance), that means accepting him wholeheartedly, his sayings too.
But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission. (4:65)
If you say, "I accept him as messenger, but reject x command of his and reject y command of his, and don't believe he said a, b and c, and even though it is said he commanded d, e, and f, I don't believe those statements are true or authentic at all", despite a unanimous agreement of the righteous scholars with multiple verified strong chains of narration, attesting the authenticity and strongness of the same hadeeth, then that begs the question as to how strong that acceptance really is. If his sayings aren't to be accepted, he's not a role model to aspire to and try to imitate, then is it simply a case of believing that he existed and that Allah just revealed the Qur'an to him and nothing else? Remember shaytaan believes in Allah too. Simply believing is not enough, we have to whole heartedly accept, and obey. And obedience to the Prophet can only be done if you know what he did, said, approved of, and commanded. And you can only know that through the hadeeth, the records of his sayings, actions and approvals.
^ As for the crucifixion, as far as I know, there is no proof from the Qur'an or hadeeth, that Isa alayhissalam ever went onto the cross or stake.
And Allah knows best in all matters.
When you accept Muhammad :saws: as the messenger of Allah (which is part of the shahadah, and one of the conditions of the shahadah is acceptance), that means accepting him wholeheartedly, his sayings too.
But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission. (4:65)
If you say, "I accept him as messenger, but reject x command of his and reject y command of his, and don't believe he said a, b and c, and even though it is said he commanded d, e, and f, I don't believe those statements are true or authentic at all", despite a unanimous agreement of the righteous scholars with multiple verified strong chains of narration, attesting the authenticity and strongness of the same hadeeth, then that begs the question as to how strong that acceptance really is. If his sayings aren't to be accepted, he's not a role model to aspire to and try to imitate, then is it simply a case of believing that he existed and that Allah just revealed the Qur'an to him and nothing else? Remember shaytaan believes in Allah too. Simply believing is not enough, we have to whole heartedly accept, and obey. And obedience to the Prophet can only be done if you know what he did, said, approved of, and commanded. And you can only know that through the hadeeth, the records of his sayings, actions and approvals.
^ As for the crucifixion, as far as I know, there is no proof from the Qur'an or hadeeth, that Isa alayhissalam ever went onto the cross or stake.
And Allah knows best in all matters.
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Jalal~
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Re: Hello from Canada
welcome to the forum!
I see you are from India, i guess that makes you my biggest rival in cricket
But yea, since your already in some heated discussions, ill just give my say-so on the subject and move on.
As you might already know, as a Muslim, one of the six fundamental beliefs is that we should believe in all the books sent down to all the Prophets (such as the Torah, Bible, & obviously Quran, etc.). But all of these books were either lost or corrupted, which is why Allah sent down the Quran to his final messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him)
And so since he was such an important figure in Islam, many of his closest buddies wrote down basically his whole life. It was completely public to the world, even the things he did with his wives were mentioned.
But of course, there were haters. They made up their own sayings and what not and pretended that these were the words of the Muhammad (peace be upon him).
So yes, you are right, there are many hadiths out there that are corrupted or wrong. But that doesn't mean that all of them were wrong.
What I'm trying to say here is that you should at least give the authentic hadiths a chance. Just like you gave Islam a chance and behold, Allah straightened out the path for you and invited you to the greatest religion in the world.
I mean its not like all of the thousands of hadiths can be wrong, can they? I mean, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) promoted good into the world, he told people to keep a smile on there face, and donate to charity; he mentioned that the strongest men were the ones who could control their anger and the best men were the ones who were best to their wives. After you do read some of the basic and popular hadiths, you'll realize that all of them aren't corrupted or wrong after all.
All I'm saying is that you should read some hadiths and give it a chance, just like you did with the Quran.
welcome to the forum!I see you are from India, i guess that makes you my biggest rival in cricket
But yea, since your already in some heated discussions, ill just give my say-so on the subject and move on.
As you might already know, as a Muslim, one of the six fundamental beliefs is that we should believe in all the books sent down to all the Prophets (such as the Torah, Bible, & obviously Quran, etc.). But all of these books were either lost or corrupted, which is why Allah sent down the Quran to his final messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him)
And so since he was such an important figure in Islam, many of his closest buddies wrote down basically his whole life. It was completely public to the world, even the things he did with his wives were mentioned.
But of course, there were haters. They made up their own sayings and what not and pretended that these were the words of the Muhammad (peace be upon him).
So yes, you are right, there are many hadiths out there that are corrupted or wrong. But that doesn't mean that all of them were wrong.
What I'm trying to say here is that you should at least give the authentic hadiths a chance. Just like you gave Islam a chance and behold, Allah straightened out the path for you and invited you to the greatest religion in the world.
I mean its not like all of the thousands of hadiths can be wrong, can they? I mean, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) promoted good into the world, he told people to keep a smile on there face, and donate to charity; he mentioned that the strongest men were the ones who could control their anger and the best men were the ones who were best to their wives. After you do read some of the basic and popular hadiths, you'll realize that all of them aren't corrupted or wrong after all.
All I'm saying is that you should read some hadiths and give it a chance, just like you did with the Quran.
Re: Hello from Canada
I'm really skeptical of the Hadith, but you're right I was also very skeptical of the Qu'ran at one point in time.
Can you recommend any Hadith that you feel are essential to the Islamic faith? Either Shia or Sunni. I'll give it an honest try and see where it goes.
I'm really skeptical of the Hadith, but you're right I was also very skeptical of the Qu'ran at one point in time.
Can you recommend any Hadith that you feel are essential to the Islamic faith? Either Shia or Sunni. I'll give it an honest try and see where it goes.
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Re: Hello from Canada
Which is irrelevant for the discussion unless you actually believe the hadiths accurately reflect him in the first place. Whether the hadiths accurately reflect him is a historical, not theological, question.
Which is irrelevant for the discussion unless you actually believe the hadiths accurately reflect him in the first place. Whether the hadiths accurately reflect him is a historical, not theological, question.
Re: Hello from Canada
I must add something here.
We all (all of us who start to read the Quran) think that we are quite apt in understanding everything as per our own limited grasp in this vast literature. I used to think the same, till i studied under a scholar. What I did read on my own, gave me a lot to go on, but it was NOT enough to last , for a very long time.
You tend to miss genuine interpretations , good appropriate evidence based interpretations when you read everything on your own and have no idea how to link all of it; where's the missing links, how did this verse come after this, why was this verse said, when was it said? etc and etc.
All that knowledge is given in the hadith literature, about the time, place and event of the verse being revealed, the lesson that it meant to compound and the extent of the effect it was supposed to give. We, normal book readers of the Quran and sunnah have NO IDEA what to actually derive from so many verses, which have a whole battle, or a big event to read up on behind them. Without sitting with a scholar even on a weekly basis, it is so hard to grasp the depth of Islam, and the colossal knowledge in it.
It is just like claiming to become a doctor just be giving a few reads to all the medical books. Scholars spend their lifetimes studying from authentic certified sources, in every minute detail and then they comprehensively deliver that knowledge to common people for better understanding. We cannot deduce much out of the Quran even after a solid hundred reads: a comprehensive preface , a context is absolutely mandatory to be known in order to be able to even begin to understand it.
It is only the people who've sat with scholars who understand the importance of hadith, the rest mostly seem to roam around as pseudo experts on the Quran and on its depth, just by verbally reading its meanings. Its just like missing the whole text's essence and beauty by not reading up about how it actually happened.
Lastly, If one keeps on praying to Allah swt for true guidance, with all their sincerity, Allah will protect them against disbelief and fitna. One must regularly pray to Allah that if this thing is the right one, make my heart accept it with full conviction. Rest your guidance in the hands of Allah swt, and you will never go astray. May ALlAH swt be with you and ease your way, ameen.
I must add something here.
We all (all of us who start to read the Quran) think that we are quite apt in understanding everything as per our own limited grasp in this vast literature. I used to think the same, till i studied under a scholar. What I did read on my own, gave me a lot to go on, but it was NOT enough to last , for a very long time.
You tend to miss genuine interpretations , good appropriate evidence based interpretations when you read everything on your own and have no idea how to link all of it; where's the missing links, how did this verse come after this, why was this verse said, when was it said? etc and etc.
All that knowledge is given in the hadith literature, about the time, place and event of the verse being revealed, the lesson that it meant to compound and the extent of the effect it was supposed to give. We, normal book readers of the Quran and sunnah have NO IDEA what to actually derive from so many verses, which have a whole battle, or a big event to read up on behind them. Without sitting with a scholar even on a weekly basis, it is so hard to grasp the depth of Islam, and the colossal knowledge in it.
It is just like claiming to become a doctor just be giving a few reads to all the medical books. Scholars spend their lifetimes studying from authentic certified sources, in every minute detail and then they comprehensively deliver that knowledge to common people for better understanding. We cannot deduce much out of the Quran even after a solid hundred reads: a comprehensive preface , a context is absolutely mandatory to be known in order to be able to even begin to understand it.
It is only the people who've sat with scholars who understand the importance of hadith, the rest mostly seem to roam around as pseudo experts on the Quran and on its depth, just by verbally reading its meanings. Its just like missing the whole text's essence and beauty by not reading up about how it actually happened.
Lastly, If one keeps on praying to Allah swt for true guidance, with all their sincerity, Allah will protect them against disbelief and fitna. One must regularly pray to Allah that if this thing is the right one, make my heart accept it with full conviction. Rest your guidance in the hands of Allah swt, and you will never go astray. May ALlAH swt be with you and ease your way, ameen.
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aadil77
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Re: Hello from Canada
That's good
Hadith cannot be read in the same form as the Qur'an many will apply to different situations but here's a book with some common hadtih:
http://hadithcollection.com/downloa...-forty-hadith/69-an-nawawis-forty-hadith.html
That's good
Hadith cannot be read in the same form as the Qur'an many will apply to different situations but here's a book with some common hadtih:
http://hadithcollection.com/downloa...-forty-hadith/69-an-nawawis-forty-hadith.html