What is the meaning of "I bear witness"?

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

My question here is simply this, how has any Muslim witnessed that Allah is the only god and Mohammad is His prophet? Does witness mean “I believe”? You could say, “I am witness to the love of Allah, because every time I pray, I feel His presence and love.” Here it means, “I have experienced Allah’s love. I bear witness to it.” You are your own witness. But in the Shahada, a Muslim is claiming that Allah is the only god. Did he go to a high mountain, peer into heaven, see no one else but Allah sitting there, and come back to claim that Allah is the only god? Similarly, a Muslim may know from the Quran that Mohammad is Allah’s prophet and this knowledge may be absolute truth for him. But in what way does the word ‘witness’ come into the picture? Was any Muslim on the scene when Allah dubbed Mohammed as his prophet? Therefore are not Muslims in reciting the Shahada being untruthful?

Being a revert i had to face that as an issue. I was not taught it as a belief, I had to search and prove to myself it was true.

Life experiences and searching have long ago convinced me that there is only one God(swt). I will not deny the possibility there may be or may have been other creations that are superior to human's but the preponderance of evidence, leads to the conclusion that there is a supreme being and that we call him Allaah(swt)

All that I have seen and study of cultures has by the preponderance of evidence proven to me that Allaah(swt) has sent messengers to give his message to mankind.

Historical evidence does verify that Muhammad(PBUH) was one of these messengers and therefore what he has passed onto us as being the word of Allaah(swt) is the word of Allaah(SWT) so the statement of he being the final messenger, has to be true, simply because it was told to us by Allaah(swt).

When I say "I bear witness......." I am testifying that it is the truth and that I have searched and that I have found sufficient evidence to verify it as being the truth to my satisfaction.


Now if you or anyone else,disagrees with what I accept as proof, so be it. Prove, to me that any other options are the truth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Armand

Moreover, a Muslim ''witnesses" Allaah (with our inner eye) through progressive spiritual practise under the guidelines of Islamic spirituality and mysticism.

A human being is to engage in muraaqaba (a form of deep spiritual reflection and meditation) to be able to begin comprehending reality.

I believe these two sentences of yours are nearer the truth. Please tell me what you mean by Islamic spirituality and mysticism. Please also tell me more about muraaqaba. It appears that only a person who undergoes deep spiritual practice can claim to have witnessed truths about Allah. In the mouths of such persons, the Shahada is credible. Do you think the mass of Muslims can claim such spiritual experiences?

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Being a revert i had to face that as an issue. I was not taught it as a belief, I had to search and prove to myself it was true.

Look, my question is only on the usage of the word ‘witness’. When you say you believe such and such a thing, that is acceptable. Who am I to dispute what you believe in? However, when you say you are testifying to the truth of anything, it has to be something more than belief. Unless you have a personal experience, you cannot testify anything. Mere believing in something will not do. You cannot say in a Shariat court that you believe you saw a rape scene. You should have actually seen the penetration in the act of rape to qualify as a witness. When the Shariat is so precise about the use of the word ‘witness’, why the laxity in the case of the Shahada in the usage of the word?

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

When I say "I bear witness......." I am testifying that it is the truth and that I have searched and that I have found sufficient evidence to verify it as being the truth to my satisfaction.

Where have you searched and found the evidence? In the Quran? But the Quran is not your evidence, it is Allah’s evidence. To be a witness you have to base your evidence on your own experience. Not on your experience of another’s experience, even if Allah’s.

It is said in the Quran that when Allah created Adam, He also brought into existence all the descendents of Adam (that would include all of us living now) and He took a pledge from all of us saying: Am I not your Lord? To which they [we?] all replied, Yes, we testify to it. Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and the only true God worthy of worship. He said: That was in case you (mankind) should say on the Day of Resurrection, Verily we were unaware of all this. (Quran 7:172)
Is the Shahada connected to the original witnessing all people (as per the Quran) had? Since in any case we do not remember the original witnessing, would it still not be a false witnessing when we say it now?

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

My question here is simply this, how has any Muslim witnessed that Allah is the only god and Mohammad is His prophet? Does witness mean “I believe”? You could say, “I am witness to the love of Allah, because every time I pray, I feel His presence and love.” Here it means, “I have experienced Allah’s love. I bear witness to it.” You are your own witness. But in the Shahada, a Muslim is claiming that Allah is the only god. Did he go to a high mountain, peer into heaven, see no one else but Allah sitting there, and come back to claim that Allah is the only god? Similarly, a Muslim may know from the Quran that Mohammad is Allah’s prophet and this knowledge may be absolute truth for him. But in what way does the word ‘witness’ come into the picture? Was any Muslim on the scene when Allah dubbed Mohammed as his prophet? Therefore are not Muslims in reciting the Shahada being untruthful?

Of all the arguments I have seen on this forum, this has to be the silliest one yet! Congratulations.

Secondly, your argument itself is based upon ignorance of the Arabic language. 'Witness' is simply a translation, إشهد can also be translated as 'testify', i.e. "is a solemn attestation as to the truth of a matter". Therefore الشهادة is the testimony of Imaan. Not really a tough thing to understand.

[QUOTE=K.Venugopal;958615]It is said in the Quran that when Allah created Adam, He also brought into existence all the descendents of Adam [QUOTE]

I was asked to partake in this thread though I have positively no interest in it.. but out of honor to a Muslims's request...

I am not sure what it is about bearing witness that irks you so? perhaps you can elaborate a little.. give me the ultra contracted version.... and while at it.. give me the alternative.. what alternative to the one God is there?

cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

...your argument itself is based upon ignorance of the Arabic language. 'Witness' is simply a translation, إشهد can also be translated as 'testify', i.e. "is a solemn attestation as to the truth of a matter". Therefore الشهادة is the testimony of Imaan. Not really a tough thing to understand.

I do not know Arabic. I know ‘witness’ is a translation. The question is, is it a correct translation? In translations of the Shahada, ‘witness’ and ‘testify’ are used interchangeably. Do you see a difference between ‘witness’ and ‘testify’ as used in the Shahada?

How can anyone attest to the truth of the claim that Allah is the only god unless he has had personal knowledge of the matter? Concluding that it is so on the basis of the Quran cannot qualify one to attest. We can attest only if we have personal knowledge as to the truth of what is being stated. Faith cannot be the basis of attestation, because you are only attesting your own faith, not the truth of the matter.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

I was asked to partake in this thread though I have positively no interest in it.. but out of honor to a Muslims's request...

I am not sure what it is about bearing witness that irks you so? perhaps you can elaborate a little.. give me the ultra contracted version.... and while at it.. give me the alternative.. what alternative to the one God is there?

cheers

When a Muslim says, in reciting the Shahada, “I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his messenger”, is the Muslim simply reciting a verse which is in the Quran or elsewhere? In that case the Muslim is simply repeating like a parrot and he cannot be accused of lying. But if the Shahada is supposed to be a truthful testimony by each person uttering the Shahada, then it is a lie because no one would have witnessed what they claim to have. Therefore please clarify what exactly the Shahada is all about. Moreover, is the phrase “I bear witness” in the Quran? Where did the Shahada, in full, originate?

We will talk about the alternative to the one God, if any, later. Let’s talk about the Shahada first. One subject at a time.

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

When a Muslim says, in reciting the Shahada, “I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his messenger”, is the Muslim simply reciting a verse which is in the Quran or elsewhere?

A Muslim is then satisfying the first pillar of Islam!

In that case the Muslim is simply repeating like a parrot and he cannot be accused of lying.

I am not following?.. You have made a nonsensical statement and assumed it to be true but haven't told us why this one follows from the other?--

But if the Shahada is supposed to be a truthful testimony by each person uttering the Shahada, then it is a lie because no one would have witnessed what they claim to have. Therefore please clarify what exactly the Shahada is all about. Moreover, is the phrase “I bear witness” in the Quran? Where did the Shahada, in full, originate?

How is it a lie? I have written this just a couple of days ago

I beg to differ with the title of the thread.. should read more like..
'Will atheists ever give proof of God's nonexistence'-- since they with the burden of proof of course to find a logical manner to explain all that is in existence.. preferably under one canopy considering they are often fond of the 'principle of parsimony'... In the end they too are subject to infractions resulting from the fallacy of drawing an affirmative conclusion from a negative premise... If at the inception is a non-demonstrable theory of their own making (panspermia) (abiogenesis) etc.. they too are illogical and are followers of a man made doctrine....

'Which God' and 'why' is much too advanced a topic for folks who don't believe in God or I should say believe in a lesser God being (palpable science) only.. there is no point discussing finite details on the flight manual when you can't distinguish a bird from a plane..


Ultimately you have folks who have replaced Thor, or odin for Darwin or Dawkin et al.

One can arrive to the truth of God, simply by process of elimination.. When you have a test question with four possible answers, and you don't know what is the correct answer, but by process of elimination have concluded logically that the other three are impossible, whatever is left, must be the correct answer!
And ultimately that is a solo journey... I can gurantee that you don't have enough tricks up your sleeves to come up with a logical answer to our existence without conjecturing, so who is to say your theories are less or more faulty?

We will talk about the alternative to the one God, if any, later. Let’s talk about the Shahada first. One subject at a time.

see my reply above.. once you have taken care of that, can we ourselves get a bit more advanced!

cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

When you say, for example, “Allahhu Akbar”, I am not going to question you as to on what basis you are saying that Allah is great. Even if I do, that would only be for academic reasons. But in the case of the Shahada, you are saying, “I bear witness.” Unless the word ‘witness’ also means ‘believe’, it is plain that a lie is being uttered in the Shahada.

in your opinion it is a plain lie. Can you disprove it though?

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

A Muslim is then satisfying the first pillar of Islam!

I am, in this thread, only asking why all Muslims keep repeating the Shahadah with the phrase “I bear witness”? If the phrase was “I believe”, it would have been perfect. A Muslim in repeating the Shahada is saying that he is witness to Allah being the only god and Mohammad being His messenger. All I want to know is in what way is he a witness to Allah being the only god and Mohammad being his messenger? If he is simply agreeing to what is stated in the Quran, how does he become a witness?

I am not, in this thread, asking about proof of Allah’s existence, His being the only god or Mohammad being His messenger. I am just asking about the usage of the word witness.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah

Testifying that there is only one God, isn't the same as witnessing a rape, since God is 'Unseen'. When a muslim says the shahada he doesn't claim to have seen God but rather professes that there is only one God. It is claiming to believe in one God.

I beg to differ from you. The Shahada clearly uses the word ‘witness’. You can never be a witness unless you have seen or experienced. Believing is not witnessing.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah

Also, back in the Prophet's time people bore witness that Muhammed (PBUH) is the messenger of Allah, therefore having witnessed the second part of the shahadah with their own eyes and believed. And since the Prophet's message was to worship one God, a muslim who believed in Muhammed (PBUH) to be the messenger of God, would have to believe in the message of there being only one God, hence declaring the sahadah/announcing one's faith.

I have contention only with the usage of the word witness. I repeat, believing is not witnessing.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah

I know that arabic words can have several meanings, so the word 'witness' can simply mean to profess and not witness in it's literal sense. It's not the first time a translation has caused confusion, so it's worth looking into.

You might feel the correct translation of the word is ‘profess’ but since the word ‘profess’ means ‘to affirm faith in or allegiance to’ are you, in reciting the Shahada simply affirming your faith or allegiance to the idea that Allah is the only god?

format_quote Originally Posted by amani

in your opinion it is a plain lie. Can you disprove it though?

Look, I used the word ‘lie’ only because the word ‘witness’ is used. To witness we needs have a personal experience and without this personal experience we would be lying in claiming to have witnessed.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

According to Webster's II dictionary

bear 1. To hold up: support ... 13. To give as testimony <bearing witness>

testimony 1. A declaration or affirmation of truth or fact, as that given before a court.

testify 1. To make a declaration of truth or fact under oath 2. To make a serious statement in support of an argument, position or asserted fact.

When I bear witness that "There is no God, but Allah" it does not mean that I have actually seen or even personally experienced Him to the exclusion of all other possible "gods". It is a statement of faith which is more than simply believing.

faith 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

You have given the definition of all related words but not the actual word in contention – witness.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

One's personal faith is a fundamental element of that person's being or existence. When I was a Christian, my faith that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for my sins was a basic, fundamental part of the person I was at that time. Likewise, my present faith that there is only One God - Allah, and that Jesus was no more than a Servant, Prophet and Messenger of Allah fundamentally defines who I am today.

If faith can be changed, then what is so fundamental about it?

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

I do not have to observe something to be able to testify as to its truth. I do not have to observe a molecule of oxygen (2 oxygen elements) going into my lungs and observe a molecule of carbon dioxide (a carbon and 2 oxygen elements) being exhaled to have faith that is what actually happens when I breathe. I accept what the textbooks taught me as being true. Likewise, I accepted as true that Saturn has beautiful rings around it even before I actually observed them a few years ago through a powerful telescope. Again, likewise, I accept as true that there is only One God, because I accept the Quran as being true, the Word of Allah, and I accept what it says is the Truth.

When you first said Saturn has beautiful rings around it, you were not testifying to the truth of it, you were only stating or forming your opinion or belief based on the findings of the scientists or astronomers who discovered the fact through observation, witnessing and personal experience. But when you finally got to see Saturn through the telescope, you have witnessed and what you say would have a ring of truth around it. Likewise, knowing Allah through the Quran and knowing Him personally are two different things. We can claim to be a witness to the truth of Allah only if we have personal experience. And the truth is, if we have had a personal experience of Allah, then we would not need His middleman any more.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

When I testify that, "There is no God but Allah" it means that I accept the statement as being true to the exclusion of all other competing statements. When I testify that, "Muhammad was the Messenger of Allah" it means that I accept what Muhammad said was true and I accept his example, or Sunnah, as the pattern for my life as an illustration of Allah's Will for how to live my life.

Testifying and acceptance are different. You can accept anything you wish, right or wrong, and it is your freedom to do so. But you cannot freely testify. There must be a basis for testifying and that has to be personal experience.

format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

I beg to differ from you. The Shahada clearly uses the word ‘witness’. You can never be a witness unless you have seen or experienced. Believing is not witnessing.



I have contention only with the usage of the word witness. I repeat, believing is not witnessing.

You might feel the correct translation of the word is ‘profess’ but since the word ‘profess’ means ‘to affirm faith in or allegiance to’ are you, in reciting the Shahada simply affirming your faith or allegiance to the idea that Allah is the only god?

Surah Al-Bakarah (Chapter Two - Verse 283)

Wa in-kuntum a'laa safarin-wa lam taji-duu kaatiban fari-haanum-maqbuuzah. Fa-'in a-mina ba' zukum ba-zan-fal-yu-'addil-lazi-tuminu ' 'amaanatahuu wal-yatta-qillaha Rabba. Waa laa taktumush-shahaadah; wa many-yaktumhaa fa-'innahuuu 'aa-simun-qalbuh. Wallaahu bimaa ta-'maluuna' Aliim.

Translation:
If you be on a journey and cannot find a scribe, then a pledge in hand (shall suffice). And if one of you entrusts to another let him who is trusted deliver up that which is entrusted to him (according to the pact between them) and let them observe his duty to Allah. Hide not testimony. He who hides it, verily his heart is sinful. Allah is ware of what you do.



Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.