OK, so this is another trinity-related question, although it doesn't have to do with the confusing nature of the doctrine, but rather the "Holy Ghost" element of it.
So my understanding is that the Holy Ghost is the part of God that lives inside each and every Christian. This spirit causes the person to live a Christian life. I also know that this belief has different meanings to different people, but I think that's the jist of it, right?
OK, so then my question would be this: if God (or a part of Him) is actually living inside of a person, how could that person commit even the smallest, minute sin? The Bible says that God cannot be in the presence of sin, so how can God, Who is Perfect, dwell inside of a creature which is by nature, imperfect?
I didn't know if I would find it and it took me a little while of searching ... but in the end I did.
You are indeed right. In one of his letters John writes this about those who sin:
Quite scathing, eh?
I am not sure who John is addressing, and why he might choose such harsh words. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other Christians on this.
It seems to me that John's expectations of himself and his fellow humans is quite unrealistic.
Well, he means exactly what he wrote. It's true that everybody sins, but the sins that a Christian cannot overcome are sins like being lazy, and sins of the mind. When you become Christian, you're not supposed to be committing trespasses.
Well, this would be true of anyone who is still committing trespasses. The important distinction that can be made in a Christian's life though is that, if they fall into sin, at least they know what it is like to serve and live holy before God, while all the sinner knows is sin.
>>>There no such thing "still committing" in the scripture.
The scripture very clear: If you believe and committed sin, then you are servant of the sin or the devil, simple.
>>>There no such thing "still committing" in the scripture.
The scripture very clear: If you believe and committed sin, then you are servant of the sin or the devil, simple.
This is what the scripture says:
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.[...]
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother
This simply means that if you accept Christ as your savior that you aren't going to practice or do the things that you were previously doing, while you were in your sins. Yes you are no longer in sin, and you no longer live the way a sinner lives (in all areas of life), but you are not impervious from ever committing another sin. It may seem contradictory but it is not.
So if you are a prostitute, that life is now passed. If you are a homosexual, you won't want to live like that anymore. As I said, it doesn't mean that you are impervious from ever committing another sin, because in Hebrews the writer tells us that God can and does discipline those who DO sin. And quite simply, I could explain the lifestyle of a Christian to you over the net, but you won't truly understand unless you yourself become born again. My parents were Christian, and they've been an example to me, but it wasn't until I myself became Christian that I understood.
Tha Ha (20):110 He knoweth (all) that is before them and (all) that is behind them, while they cannot compass it in knowledge.
An Naml (27):84. Till, when they come (before their Lord at the place of reckoning), He will say: "Did you deny My Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) whereas you comprehended them not by knowledge (of their truth or falsehood), or what (else) was it that you used to do?"
Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace, development and safe from guile be upon who follow the guidance)
I dont actually believe that deity dwells within the fleshly matter of the human body. But what does happen it that His Will is at work through an agent, whether it be grace or Holy Spirit.
I dont actually believe that deity dwells within the fleshly matter of the human body. But what does happen it that His Will is at work through an agent, whether it be grace or Holy Spirit.
I agree that 'dwelling inside' within the context of this discussion is a figure of speech. (Having God's Spirit 'living in us' is not like being 'taken over' by another entity, like a body-snatching event ...)
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
I agree that 'dwelling inside' within the context of this discussion is a figure of speech. (Having God's Spirit 'living in us' is not like being 'taken over' by another entity, like a body-snatching event ...)
Peace
Shalama,
Not only that its one way whereby men attempt to justify thier beliefs as to how Deity influences the world in a way that it attains to His Will. We dont become mere pawns, but we do our part in performing the Will of one who calls us.
Certainly what occured was a change in the relationship between God and humanity!
Whether people are worse today is debatable and probably doesn’t belong here.
As for your comments about sin, you are right. Sin has not been removed. Our God-given freedom to make our own choices remains in place.
Sin will not be eradicated until the final day of judgement.
The point is not whether we still sin or not … clearly we do!
The point is that with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us we have access to his comfort, his guidance, his conviction. Whether we use it as much as we should or could is a different matter.
Salaam
so again, the relationship changed, sins have not been removed, rather it's the access to guidance, and atleast the prophets in the OT had the spirit in them, thus that access, doesn't that make the sacrifice of Jesus unnecessary then?
Abraham and Moses don't seem to have needed Jesus to have the spirit dwell within them, regardless of their sins. what happens to all the humans before the relationship changed btw, were they all denied by god?
so again, the relationship changed, sins have not been removed, rather it's the access to guidance, and atleast the prophets in the OT had the spirit in them, thus that access, doesn't that make the sacrifice of Jesus unnecessary then?
Abraham and Moses don't seem to have needed Jesus to have the spirit dwell within them, regardless of their sins. what happens to all the humans before the relationship changed btw, were they all denied by god?
Shalama,
Your've made a good point concerning the Prophets in the Torah. More emphasis is placed on the Spirit rather then the sin. For the Prophets of God are sanctified meaning that their sins are padoned by the Spirit. None the less it does not mean that Prophets are perfect, for no one is perfect to God. But if the Will of God is performed within a Prophet, it would be difficult to think that a Prophet could sin unless God Wills it. Elijah didn't join the pagan prophets in calling on their gods!
Unlike the chosen prophets, humanity isn't sanctified by the Spirit or His Will. So, we the gentiles need the instruction of the Prophets to calls us to Him and to perform His Will on earth, as commanded.
Those born without the knowledge of Jesus or prior to his coming will be judged according to the knowledge they had been given.
I am sure that God knows best and will judge us all justly and graciously.
Peace
Are you saying that Jesus judgement will be based on their own relevation, or teaching? Of would His Judgement be of that God's Will? (That is free of any religious attachment)
And quite simply, I could explain the lifestyle of a Christian to you over the net, but you won't truly understand unless you yourself become born again. My parents were Christian, and they've been an example to me, but it wasn't until I myself became Christian that I understood.
Fedos,
It is most interesting how Christians teach others that they will 'not understand' Christianity or the beliefs thereof, until they are 'born again' or converted. If an individual does not understand the most significant matters pertaining to the Christian faith then how else are they to embrace it, other than by blind faith?
I think this explanation is flawed and that it is quite easy for non-Christians to come to understand Christianity to the fullest - except for not 'feeling' it; they will lack that spiritual sensation within that 'enlightens' one's understanding of their faith and god.
It is most interesting how Christians teach others that they will 'not understand' Christianity or the beliefs thereof, until they are 'born again' or converted. If an individual does not understand the most significant matters pertaining to the Christian faith then how else are they to embrace it, other than by blind faith?
I think this explanation is flawed and that it is quite easy for non-Christians to come to understand Christianity to the fullest - except for not 'feeling' it; they will lack that spiritual sensation within that 'enlightens' one's understanding of their faith and god.
Well, I have explained the Christian lifestyle, in earlier posts in this thread even.
And other things relating to Christianity. Multiple times I've explained it. But just because I explain something that doesn't mean that you'll understand it. Here's what the scripture says:
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given unto us.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.' I Corinthians 2: 12-14.
You have to be born of God to understand the things of God. If you are still in your sins then it will seem like foolishness.
so again, the relationship changed, sins have not been removed, rather it's the access to guidance, and atleast the prophets in the OT had the spirit in them, thus that access, doesn't that make the sacrifice of Jesus unnecessary then? Abraham and Moses don't seem to have needed Jesus to have the spirit dwell within them, regardless of their sins. what happens to all the humans before the relationship changed btw, were they all denied by god?
The Old Testament saints did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, because Christ hadn't died yet, and sin debt was not paid. The parallel between the Old Testament and the New, is seen with the Levitical priesthood carrying God's presence on their shoulders in the Ark of the Covenant.
You said: You have to be born of God to understand the things of God. If you are still in your sins then it will seem like foolishness.
I say: I agree, no one can actually understand God and the Scriptures without being 'born' of His Will. I wounldn't define as a physical birth because I view it is a spiritual birth of the new man who is the one who has become spiritually discerning.
It is most interesting how Christians teach others that they will 'not understand' Christianity or the beliefs thereof, until they are 'born again' or converted. If an individual does not understand the most significant matters pertaining to the Christian faith then how else are they to embrace it, other than by blind faith?
I think this explanation is flawed and that it is quite easy for non-Christians to come to understand Christianity to the fullest - except for not 'feeling' it; they will lack that spiritual sensation within that 'enlightens' one's understanding of their faith and god.
Isn't blind faith based on the face value of the assurance that the faith is the one to believe?
Well, I have explained the Christian lifestyle, in earlier posts in this thread even.
And other things relating to Christianity. Multiple times I've explained it. But just because I explain something that doesn't mean that you'll understand it. Here's what the scripture says:
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given unto us.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.' I Corinthians 2: 12-14.
You have to be born of God to understand the things of God. If you are still in your sins then it will seem like foolishness.
I think most religions teach that anyone without the "spirit" of God [if the Spirit, as previously asserted, isn't a spirit that literally dwells in human flesh] within them are bereft of knowledge.
I reckon it makes sense to you that pious and righteous Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc are people who are still 'in their sins'? The most faithful religious scholars and devotees from over the world who pray, worship and commit to a good lifestyle are still in sin? The only sin left in this context is the sin of not embracing Christ in the Christian sense, which brings me back to my original point.
It's sort of difficult to imagine a saintly person the likes of, say the Dalai Lama, doesn't comprehend things due to his sins. The fella' is morally clean and neither does he worship idols. Regardless, he may study the Bible and intellectually reject it.
Isn't blind faith based on the face value of the assurance that the faith is the one to believe?
That face value of assurance varies from person to person and religion to religion. It still remains blind faith - following a set of beliefs without actual evidence to support them. It does not at all matter how powerful your personal certainty may be when the fact remains that you have no actual knowledge of what you believe in.
Both the Bible [OT] and the Qur'an call for the use of reason. Yet, Christians sometimes resort to the fallacious no Holy Spirit = no understanding argument and flee at the mention of the word 'reason'.
Isaiah 1:18 reads: "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord."
Sadly, when a question cannot be answered we -- the most sinless of us -- are told that we shall come to understand once we open up ourselves to receive the spirit.
That face value of assurance varies from person to person and religion to religion. It still remains blind faith - following a set of beliefs without actual evidence to support them. It does not at all matter how powerful your personal certainty may be when the fact remains that you have no actual knowledge of what you believe in.
Both the Bible [OT] and the Qur'an call for the use of reason. Yet, Christians sometimes resort to the fallacious no Holy Spirit = no understanding argument and flee at the mention of the word 'reason'.
Isaiah 1:18 reads: "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord."
Sadly, when a question cannot be answered we -- the most sinless of us -- are told that we shall come to understand once we open up ourselves to receive the spirit.
I understand. I'll have to be dependent on blind faith and reason. But I won't be reasoned away from what people call the LORD.
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