OK, so this is another trinity-related question, although it doesn't have to do with the confusing nature of the doctrine, but rather the "Holy Ghost" element of it.
So my understanding is that the Holy Ghost is the part of God that lives inside each and every Christian. This spirit causes the person to live a Christian life. I also know that this belief has different meanings to different people, but I think that's the jist of it, right?
OK, so then my question would be this: if God (or a part of Him) is actually living inside of a person, how could that person commit even the smallest, minute sin? The Bible says that God cannot be in the presence of sin, so how can God, Who is Perfect, dwell inside of a creature which is by nature, imperfect?
I think most religions teach that anyone without the "spirit" of God [if the Spirit, as previously asserted, isn't a spirit that literally dwells in human flesh] within them are bereft of knowledge.
Man is composed of spirit, soul, and body. The soul is the mind, will and the emotions. The body needs no explanation. When you become Christian, God in dwells within your inmost man (your spirit) which is also in your body. It is the spirit through which God created so that we might have fellowship with him. We are all born into this world spiritually dead, in enmity towards God, with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, you become spiritually alive (and this is in fact the only way that you can become spiritually alive) and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it.
format_quote Originally Posted by Indigåtor
I reckon it makes sense to you that pious and righteous Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc are people who are still 'in their sins'? The most faithful religious scholars and devotees from over the world who pray, worship and commit to a good lifestyle are still in sin? The only sin left in this context is the sin of not embracing Christ in the Christian sense, which brings me back to my original point.
Yes, this is how it is. Religion is man's attempt to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh. This is a fallen world, and we are all born fallen creatures. The Bible says that without Christ our 'good works' before God are like filthy rags. Simply put, you cannot live the Christian life apart from Christ.
Good works are only those things which God has commanded, just as sin is that which God has forbidden.
Have you perfectly obeyed all that God has commanded?
Have you ever lied? Have you ever lusted in your heart or desired what God has forbidden?
Have you ever put anything above and before God?
If so, then what you call a good work is nothing more than an imperfect work that a perfect and holy God will never accept. No person, except Christ, can keep God’s commandments perfectly; and therefore, all our good works fall short of what God requires. (Rom.3:23)
format_quote Originally Posted by Indigåtor
It's sort of difficult to imagine a saintly person the likes of, say the Dalai Lama, doesn't comprehend things due to his sins. The fella' is morally clean and neither does he worship idols. Regardless, he may study the Bible and intellectually reject it.
Well, I haven't done any extensive research on Buddhism. But I don't have to know the Dali Lama to know that if he hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as his savior that he is still in his sins.
Man is composed of spirit, soul, and body. The soul is the mind, will and the emotions. The body needs no explanation. When you become Christian, God in dwells within your inmost man (your spirit) which is also in your body. It is the spirit through which God created so that we might have fellowship with him. We are all born into this world spiritually dead, in enmity towards God, with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, you become spiritually alive (and this is in fact the only way that you can become spiritually alive) and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it.
Muslim's as they naturally will say, men are slaves to Allah. But how can men be both slaves to both sin and Allah?
Yes, this is how it is. Religion is man's attempt to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh. This is a fallen world, and we are all born fallen creatures. The Bible says that without Christ our 'good works' before God are like filthy rags. Simply put, you cannot live the Christian life apart from Christ.
We should see our work's a filthy. Why because they are washed in muddy water and are consequently unfit for the LORD.
DarkGreen"]Muslim's as they naturally will say, men are slaves to Allah. But how can men be both slaves to both sin and Allah?
>>>well, let's see what your book say:
“God raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26), Matt. 12:8 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.
________________________________________
John 13:16 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.
“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus” (Acts 3:13).
Muslim very proud to be servant of God as Jesus was.
darkgreen"]We should see our work's a filthy. Why because they are washed
in muddy water and are consequently unfit for the LORD
>>>Said who? Where is the LORD or Jesus said such thing?
You been told your good work is filth before the Lord, But the Lord said otherwise:
Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
Muslim's as they naturally will say, men are slaves to Allah. But how can men be both slaves to both sin and Allah?
Well, you can't be a servant of God while you remain in your sins. You will be a servant of sin and the lusts of your flesh. You have to be born again, born of the Spirit of God, set apart from those in the world in order to be a servant of God.
Well, you can't be a servant of God while you remain in your sins. You will be a servant of sin and the lusts of your flesh. You have to be born again, born of the Spirit of God, set apart from those in the world in order to be a servant of God.
Yes, there's a church within a church. Not everyone that confesses Jesus to be their savior is really Christs. Here's what Jesus said:
'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' Matthew 7: 21-23.
Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid, he will tell them that he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils. It all comes back to whether or not you are living a life that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, a life that he enabled you to live because you came to him.
Allahu Ta'ala is (ever) near with His hearing, seeing, and knowledge(unseen and tangible) and His hearing, seeing and knowledge are everywhere. His creation is everywhere and His Malaikat are (ever) near to every human beings.
Al Qur'an(Kalamullah) has stated that Allahu Jalla Jalaaluhu:
Thaha(20):5 (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne .
His creation is everywhere:
6 To Him belongs what is in the heavens and on earth and all between them and all beneath the soil.
His hearing and knowledge are everywhere:
Tha Ha(20):7 If thou pronounce the word aloud (it is no matter): for verily He knoweth what is secret and what is yet more hidden.
He has more than 99 beautiful names.
8 Allah! there is no god but He! To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names.
He will not only give safety and salvation on the earth, but will also give the eternal reward in the Paradise. And His seeing is everywhere:
An Nisa(4):134 Whoso desireth the reward of the world, (let him know that) with Allah is the reward of the world and the Hereafter. Allah is ever Hearer, Seer.
And His angels are everywhere to note what every people doing.
Qaf (50):16 It was We who created man and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular
17 When two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and note them) one sitting on the right and one on the left.
18 Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him ready (to note it).
Allah's reward is near. Allahu Ta'ala create everything below Himself.
Yes, there's a church within a church. Not everyone that confesses Jesus to be their savior is really Christs. Here's what Jesus said:
'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' Matthew 7: 21-23.
Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid, he will tell them that he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils. It all comes back to whether or not you are living a life that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, a life that he enabled you to live because we came to him.
Shalama my good Christian companion,
That's why I never pay those people attention. LORD is all that matters.
Man is composed of spirit, soul, and body. The soul is the mind, will and the emotions. The body needs no explanation. When you become Christian, God in dwells within your inmost man (your spirit) which is also in your body. It is the spirit through which God created so that we might have fellowship with him.
So you believe that He literally "dwells" inside the "inmost" part of man? If the inmost part of me isn't material or a thing beyond time and space, that I can possibly accept, but if my spirit is temporal and inherent to my physical body then I'd rather stay away from your modified form of pantheism.
We are all born into this world spiritually dead, in enmity towards God, with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, you become spiritually alive (and this is in fact the only way that you can become spiritually alive) and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it.
I don't necessarily concur with that first sentence. Islam, for instance, propose the concept of a fitra. The fitra is the human being's natural predisposition of doing what is right, instead of wrong. Unlike the beasts of nature, Muslims also believe that man is born with an inclination to believe in a higher power, and sinless until he matures and begins to act wrongly. I prefer the latter doctrine simply because it makes more sense and is supported by testable evidence [partly from evolution theory]. I however accept neither as unfalsifiable.
Yes, this is how it is. Religion is man's attempt to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh. This is a fallen world, and we are all born fallen creatures. The Bible says that without Christ our 'good works' before God are like filthy rags. Simply put, you cannot live the Christian life apart from Christ.
Therefore I was correct. Your 'sin' needn't be a wrong deed or bad lifestyle, but your true sin is your lack or rejection of the Christian Christ. I am now led straight back to my starting point: If a person is morally sound and free of major sin -- save the sin of disbelief -- then how is he to acquire that special Christian understanding of all things without having any evidence? If you suppose that a person must convert before 'understanding', then on what basis must he convert? As Isaiah 1:18 says, you must use reason to prove yourself. It is not only absurd, but contradictory to the Bible itself to claim that wisdom and knowledge will come after blind conversion.
Well, I haven't done any extensive research on Buddhism. But I don't have to know the Dali Lama to know that if he hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as his savior that he is still in his sins.
You openly believe that not a single non-Christian on earth has, is, or ever will be as righteous as a Christian! Feel free to include Christ's predecessors in your doctrine - Moses, Abraham et al; these early prophets never accepted Christ as their God and redeemer. I imagine according to your way of thinking these intimate friends of God never lived half the true spiritual life of an ordinary lay Christian. Of a surety, they never received any spirit, yet they were the 'beloved' of God and were granted forgiveness.
Blind faith equals lack of reason and vise versa. You cannot interconnect the two because they are mutually exclusive.
You had to see on it's face value. When it doubt revert to blind faith by default. Seriously, if we are no faith and all reason we would begin to reason God away. Because reason, when overused leads to atheistic views. Faith however is dependent on the Scriptures. We associate reason to Athiesm and too much of it leads to everything being subjected to man's reason, which in essence replaces love of Deity (Devotional quality) with love of man (Atheistic quality). Hopefully I have explained my views a little better. Greek philosophers were critics of their own gods! It becomes a matter of faith, free will and reason applied.
"Consecrate yourselfs and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. Keep my degrees and follow them. I am the LORD who makes you holy" Leviticus 20:7 "I said to the LORD, "You are my LORD; apart from you I have no good thing" Psalm 16:2.
So you believe that He literally "dwells" inside the "inmost" part of man? If the inmost part of me isn't material or a thing beyond time and space, that I can possibly accept, but if my spirit is temporal and inherent to my physical body then I'd rather stay away from your modified form of pantheism.
Yes, this is true. Our spirits are not material.
format_quote Originally Posted by Indigåtor
I don't necessarily concur with that first sentence. Islam, for instance, propose the concept of a fitra. The fitra is the human being's natural predisposition of doing what is right, instead of wrong. Unlike the beasts of nature, Muslims also believe that man is born with an inclination to believe in a higher power, and sinless until he matures and begins to act wrongly.
It doesn't take much to understand the concept that we are altogether born in sin and in natural enmity towards God. God is completely holy and there is no darkness in him. He will not tolerate a sinner in his presence because of this reason. God is truth. Consider the fact that a young child does not have to be taught how to tell a lie. Or to steal. Or to disobey their parents.
If human beings were born with a natural disposition to do what is right then this world would not be the way it is. There'd be no such things as murder, war, theft, weapons of mass destruction, genocide, hatred, abortion, greed, and sexual impurity.
format_quote Originally Posted by Indigåtor
Therefore I was correct. Your 'sin' needn't be a wrong deed or bad lifestyle, but your true sin is your lack or rejection of the Christian Christ.
You are correct in a sense that unbelif is sin. But the fact of the matter is, no matter which faith you choose if you are not Christian then you are still committing trespasses before a holy God.
'Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whomsoever committeth sin is the servant of sin (ie not the servant of God).
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.' John 8: 34-36. This is talking about freedom from sin, no matter what your background is.
'Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.' II Corinthians 5: 17. This is not just referencing your mindset, but your lifestyle, you completely throwing off the sinful man and putting on the righteousness of God. It also references the new birth.
Here's two more verses:
'What shall we say then? Shall we contine in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' Romans 6: 1-2.
Or here:
'All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.' 1 John 5: 17-20.
The Bible says that Jesus died to take away the sins of the world, and it means exactly that. You can't live this way apart from Christ, it doesn't matter which faith you choose. As I said, religion is man's attempt to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh. You need the Spirit of God living inside of you, so you can be free from all unrighteousness.
format_quote Originally Posted by Indigåtor
I am now led straight back to my starting point: If a person is morally sound and free of major sin -- save the sin of disbelief -- then how is he to acquire that special Christian understanding of all things without having any evidence? If you suppose that a person must convert before 'understanding', then on what basis must he convert? As Isaiah 1:18 says, you must use reason to prove yourself. It is not only absurd, but contradictory to the Bible itself to claim that wisdom and knowledge will come after blind conversion.
Well, I perhaps misrepresented that passage. If someone who is Christian is witnessing to you, you can understand certain aspects of the faith, just not all. You'd have to understand in any case to convert in the first place. But still, most people who are not Christian would consider something like the cruxificion barbaric. Or the teaching of the rapture. They'd consider it nonsense for instance. This is primarily what the passage I quoted was referencing.
format_quote Originally Posted by Indigåtor
You openly believe that not a single non-Christian on earth has, is, or ever will be as righteous as a Christian!
Well that is true, you can't live the Christian life apart from Christ.
format_quote Originally Posted by Indigåtor
Feel free to include Christ's predecessors in your doctrine - Moses, Abraham et al; these early prophets never accepted Christ as their God and redeemer. I imagine according to your way of thinking these intimate friends of God never lived half the true spiritual life of an ordinary lay Christian. Of a surety, they never received any spirit, yet they were the 'beloved' of God and were granted forgiveness.
Interesting, no?
Yes, Moses, Abraham and all the forefathers of the faith couldn't live like a Christian. They also, when they died, were in what scripture calls paradise in the center of the Earth, because Christ hadn't died yet. For reference, recall the parable of the rich man and the begger Lazarus. How that upon their deaths Lazarus was comforted in Abraham's bosom, while the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell, and how that there was a great gulf separating them.
Now, when Christ was risen, he delivered those who were in the center of the Earth who were the Lord's people out of the Earth to be with God in the third heaven. The point is, we can't be in the presence of a holy God without Christ's redeeming work on the cross.
^why not? Christ is only human in the end. The trinity is mostly derived from cherry picking verses, I don't believe we need a human sacrifice for God, all knowing ,all merciful god to be able to forgive us, being the one who made us as capable of sin to begin with..
you're implying a god that is so far removed from understanding his creation, living in his own purity unawares of all else, that he is incapable of forgiving his own creation for a few millenniums until he sends a 'son' and then 'kills' him and that makes him capable of forgiving?
Christianity has parts of original truth, on the other hand why this rejection of life? the flesh is the flesh, as holy as the spirit within, both being made from God's hands.
without the flesh, there would be no human, humans are made by god just as the rest of creation, given a certain nature by God, why can't God forgive as we are if we repent?
at that the only repentance is that one should kill oneself, then it's all pure sinless spirit,,
^why not? [B]Christ is only human in the end. T he trinity is mostly derived from cherry picking verses. I don't believe we need a human sacrifice for God, all knowing ,all merciful god to be able to forgive us, being the one who made us as capable of sin to begin with..
No, I don't think Psalms 110: 1 'The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool,' is cherry picking a verse. It means exactly what it says. And Isaiah 53 backs up that the Jesus of the New Testament is who he says he is. The thing is, the Old Testament stands up to scrutiny with the New.
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
you're implying a god that is so far removed from understanding his creation, living in his own purity unwares of all else that he is incapable of understanding his own creation..
No, he does understand us, but there is no darkness in God, and as I said, he will not tolerate a sinner in his presence. It stands to reason that God being holy would want those who follow him to be holy as well. So he sent Christ into the world to be a remedy for sin. Christ is the bridge between sinful man and holy God.
why not? Christ is only human in the end. The trinity is mostly derived from cherry picking verses, I don't believe we need a human sacrifice for God, all knowing ,all merciful god to be able to forgive us, being the one who made us as capable of sin to begin with.
Amen, preach to the choir! The Trinity purly is a philosophical invention, not a literal truth. Further to your disbelief in their claims, I cannot see how God can be manisfested in whole, in human flesh, and not only that but be imitated by men, and beaten by men.
you're implying a god that is so far removed from understanding his creation, living in his own purity unawares of all else, that he is incapable of forgiving his own creation for a few millenniums until he sends a 'son' and then 'kills' him and that makes him capable of forgiving??
I see your point. Doe's the warnings of the Old Testament mean nothing? Surely there must be references from the Old Testatment, showing a way for the sinners.
Christianity has parts of original truth, but the rest..
why this rejection of life? the flesh is the flesh, as holy as the spirit within, both being made from God's hands.
without the flesh, there would be no human, humans are made by god just as the rest of creation, given a certain nature by God, why can't God forgive as we are if we repent?
Flesh is matter, like the tangible firmament that we know. I see since flesh is matter our bodies are on par with rocks, leafs and animals. What separates us from the rest of creation is that nature you speak of. Maybe some see forgiveness work's differently, and so ask for proof of Biblical correctness.
"Consecrate yourselfs and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. Keep my degrees and follow them. I am the LORD who makes you holy" Leviticus 20:7 "I said to the LORD, "You are my LORD; apart from you I have no good thing" Psalm 16:2.
but the verse doesn't imply Christ is part of god. It implies Christ's great standing.
how does it stand to reason that God being holy would not accept us as he made us? is it part of holiness not to accept repentance?
otherwise the only need for Christ is to be killed for God to forgive us since then we are as holy as he is?
then how, since we are holy, are there people who sin?
they haven't accepted Christ's sacrifice yet, well then we're back to square one, no sins forgiven regardless of his sacrifice.
I don't mean to insult, yet I truly don't get how is it that God needs such elaborate workings simply to accept our repentance, being the one who made us not completely holy, God does not fall into dilemmas, he does nothing in jest or play, he is God, the forgiver, the merciful and the all powerful.
but the verse doesn't imply Christ is part of god.
The verse says, 'The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son), sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' How can David call someone his Lord if he is not talking about God? Wouldn't that be blasphemy?
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
how does it stand to reason that god being holy would not accept us as he made us?
He does accept you as you are. We are often taught in the Christian faith to witness to people that they can come to Christ exactly as they are. Whether they be murderers, rapists, homosexuals, lesbians, thieves, etc, etc. The thing is, when you come to him, he changes you. So you don't have to live a life a slave to sin anymore.
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
so the only need for Christ is to be killed for God to forgive us since then we are as holy as he is?
then how, since we are holy, are there people who sin?
Well, Christ came into the world to save sinners from their sins. That was his purpose. The most perfect life you can live on this side of existance is as a Christian. And not everyone who calls themselves a Christian are really Christ's. Refer to the scripture I quoted at the top of the page for instance. There are many people who go to church on Sunday and live like hell Monday through Saturday.
but the verse doesn't imply Christ is part of god. It implies Christ's great standing.
how does it stand to reason that God being holy would not accept us as he made us? is it part of holiness not to accept repentance?
otherwise the only need for Christ is to be killed for God to forgive us since then we are as holy as he is?
then how, since we are holy, are there people who sin?
they haven't accepted Christ's sacrifice yet, well then we're back to square one, no sins forgiven regardless of his sacrifice.
I don't mean to insult, yet I truly don't get how is it that God needs such elaborate workings simply to accept our repentance, being the one who made us not completely holy, God does not fall into dilemmas, he does nothing in jest or play, he is God, the forgiver, the merciful and the all powerful.
Amen, Jesus of great standing!
In my signature you'll find an appropriate reference to holiness. Read the whole chapter for a better picture. We can only be holy if we keep to what the LORD decrees. There's isnt much sence in making this claim, unless you know that the OT said on the matter. But following the decrees and because of man's fallen nature it is extremely hard to just follow one, and it take's divine inpiration to keep to them. Ask God, for the answer. It wont come from men.
"Consecrate yourselfs and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. Keep my degrees and follow them. I am the LORD who makes you holy" Leviticus 20:7 "I said to the LORD, "You are my LORD; apart from you I have no good thing" Psalm 16:2.
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