You mean whether I will be punished for any evil or awarded for any good I did?
yep.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Why should I contemplate it? I think it would be a waste of time. What happens, happens. Who would punish me? My ancestors?
No the one that made all your ancestors would. So you think being moral and unmoral has no bearing on your afterlife? you just eat, drink go to sleep and die and never contemplate if at all it realy matters at all?
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
There are some other points I'd like to address but it's late so I'll do that tomorrow.
In response to the post by TKTony about complexity and creation (though I would appreciate comments from any other creationists)...
Given that you believe DNA exhibits properties such as incredible complexity and functionality which point to it's origins as the creation of an intelligent being, could you tell me what the characteristics are of things which are not created and possibly give me some examples of those things?
There are some other points I'd like to address but it's late so I'll do that tomorrow.
In response to the post by TKTony about complexity and creation (though I would appreciate comments from any other creationists)...
Given that you believe DNA exhibits properties such as incredible complexity and functionality which point to it's origins as the creation of an intelligent being, could you tell me what the characteristics are of things which are not created and possibly give me some examples of those things?
nothing in our physical world (realm) is uncreated.. no examples can be given.. there is no such a word in the dictionary even as 'uncreated' for one to identify for you things that aren't!
everything in our known universe has to come out of something else or a combination of other things...
p.s: Notice I wrote (our universe/our known universe/our physical world)
our laws and understanding doesn't compass the creator only the created.. so we won't keep going about in circles.. whatever complexities and informal objections atheists have toward a supreme being must be handled in their own private time, since they make up definitionsthat don't fit any standard understanding of "God''.
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
and the second how is it that you know the universe was conceived out of thoughts?
You have no set definition as there are none of what God is-- and I am not sure anyone is interested in the reductionist definition of atheists,as their whole world doesn't seem to rise above that pedantic mentality where God has to be either a celestial teapot or a man who died in Galilee...
Indeed a belief in God is the natural way of being not otherwise
No the one that made all your ancestors would. So you think being moral and unmoral has no bearing on your afterlife? you just eat, drink go to sleep and die and never contemplate if at all it realy matters at all?
Do you require a reward and punishment dynamic handed down from a god in order to live a peaceful and constructive life? I don't think you do. I think you have a moral compass completely independent of this reward/punishment dynamic from your religion.
magical being? nobody said anything about magically being or that the maker brought the universe by its own thoughts?
My point is that the idea of a always existing all powerful all knowing "God" making the universe out of nothing but itself is just as absurd to many of us as infinite regress.
The honest answer to these questions is rarely given on these boards. It is "I DON'T KNOW". Its very freeing to be able to be so honest with yourself. Its even more freeing to realize that the origin of the universe doesn't matter anyway.
Not knowing anything about the supreme being doesn't denote a 'magical being' -- simply denotes your inability to compass the nature of that being...
"Magical" and not understanding how it works is part of the foundation of the concept of any God. If you could explain all about God and how he/she/it works etc, it would cease to be "miraculous" and wouldn't be seen as a "God". It'd be seen as some sort of alien creature.The mystical and magical is core to Gods and religion, hence the term "Mysticism". Where there are no gaps to fill you don't need a God to fill them. By creating the god of the gaps you are skipping over admitting you simply don't know something and attributing it to mystical and magical forces you call Gods.
Reading the thread surprises me how people are so strong in their beliefs, so much so that they would not look eyond them and consider it a falsehood or misunderstanding.
Pygoscelis, have you ever tried to understand the concept of God? I think many of us have tried to understand the non existance of God, i maan why people believe that and HOW people people that. Not that because it makes sense but because it is rational to put yourself in another's shoes before telling them they are wrong or inviting them to the truth.
I think that perhaps you should try and think from a believer's point of view, the notion of God, especially as Allah. Perhaps you should try and imagine yourself as a believer and look it up in the HOly books with an open mind, then look at the facts, because right now, whatever anyone says you are just trying to prove your way of life/point of view/belief right.
It is not a competition.
All of us do it, we are just keep on being rigid throughout our lives, instead of thinking out of the box, what a shame!
I think it would be useless for me to be a part of the debate as such, I see no use for it.
. Pygoscelis, have you ever tried to understand the concept of God? I think many of us have tried to understand the non existance of God, i maan why people believe that and HOW people people that. Not that because it makes sense but because it is rational to put yourself in another's shoes before telling them they are wrong or inviting them to the truth.
There are many concepts of God. Possibly infinite such concepts. But if we talk bare theism, that is belief in Gods without any specific trappings most of them do have certain things in common.
.Perhaps you should try and imagine yourself as a believer and look it up in the HOly books with an open mind
Most atheists have done that. In fact many, if not most, are former theists. It is pretty much impossible not to have done as you suggest given the theistic culture that we live in. That you assume I have not I won't take as offensive, but others may.
It is not a competition.
Note, I didn't start this thread (or the one it split from). We atheists were specifically invited to it. If you don't want to know the views of the other side then you shouldn't ask (or read threads in which people are asking). If in a thread like this somebody makes a point, I feel perfectly ok with presenting the other side of the coin. If I just agreed with them to avoid conflict it'd make for a pretty meaningless thread, no? Note I don't go around calling people names, I just present some non-islamic thoughts.
I myself am actually not very concerned anymore with why people believe in religions (I used to focus on that). I'm now far more concerned with the thought processes these beliefs lead to and actions resulting from them, be that charity or atrocity.
"Magical" and not understanding how it works is part of the foundation of the concept of any God. If you could explain all about God and how he/she/it works etc, it would cease to be "miraculous" and wouldn't be seen as a "God". It'd be seen as some sort of alien creature.The mystical and magical is core to Gods and religion, hence the term "Mysticism". Where there are no gaps to fill you don't need a God to fill them. By creating the god of the gaps you are skipping over admitting you simply don't know something and attributing it to mystical and magical forces you call Gods.
No, it isn't part of the foundation of the concept of God. It is part of your desired understanding of God because it lowers it to the atheist low common denominator and it is a comfort zone, so long as your mind justifies to you that, God ia magical being, can you exempt yourself from basic duties as a human being or loan them your desired 'morality' or understanding!
There is alot you can't explain that is perfectly logical. Simply on your human level I can almost guarantee that you can't explain the Luzin theorem and right-hand sides of differential inclusions, in the least you'd either have someone explain it to you if your brain can grasp it all together as it is still conceived by man... it doesn't make it magical, or miraculous, it just means for all you think you are or know, you know diddlysquat if at all!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
And did he also tell them that thunder was a sign of the maker's anger and that plagues and famine were the maker's way of punishing those that did not worship him?
no, he told us that thunder was a way of praising the lord...
And, who made the maker?
who says the maker has to be made? if the maker was made, then he wouldn't be the maker, he would be made which makes no sense what so ever. its like saying He was begotten...why do Christians think that god was begotten---> he is simply above that...creation is a state of imperfection whereas "godness" is perfection. God is perfect, creation is not therefore the assumption that the Maker had to be made is ridiculous.
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Except that we do have experience of animals and plants and other things being created and it's not by some supernatural maker.
says the atheist...
They reproduce sexually (usually), Mummy and Daddy cat get together and make baby cat.
that's called reproduction NOT production.
I've never seen or heard of a cat appearing out of nowhere or being created from dust or anything else out of a religious creation story, so why would I assume that they are true when there's a perfectly reasonable alternative that I've seen with my own eyes?
strange...doesn't the evolution theory state that we evolved from one cell?
so where did this one cell come from? whee was its beginning?
At what point did the maker start existing and what happened to start it?
why is it assumed that the maker had to be made?
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
In the example given here the narrator asks why “If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the . . . universe came into being without a creator?
The answer is because people know how boats are created and know that they don’t just magically appear and although they don’t know how the universe was created they know that man has witnessed many amazing natural events that the ancients previously put down to the work of God and now they know that are ‘natural events, science has proved them not to be the work of God.
So using the same logic as used by Abu Hanifah Rahimullah one could argue that as man once ascribed lightning, famines and plagues to work of God and now science has proved them to be natural events then science will ultimately find proof that all those things we ascribe to be the work of God to be natural and explainable events; it’s the same type of reasoning.
errr no, it's not because evolution/things coming into existence due to natural circumstance is based on existence coming from non-existence, whereas religion is based on existence coming from existence. abu hanifah's argument is stating that that cannot happen simply because it isn't logical/possible...so your thinking is a little flawed!
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
haha, you are adamant to keep your head buried arent you, Ok look whats time ? its nothing why does there have to be a begining or end as we percieve it. You choose to the words "one minute nothing , then there was God" not me. Yes I am happy to let it go that I am human and cannot comprehend the nature of out obvious creator. If you cannoy see that then ok, but you do not have a right to try and trip up muslims from thier belief just to justify your lack of ubderstanding our place in existence. We are Muslims and therefore we know the truth, I find nothing difficult when examining the origins of the world, or matter. Allah created me, this is enough. You choose not to believe and I am sorry for you, but its your loss. What answers have you come to regarding the origins of existence, and I ask with a genuine desire to know and nothing more. Peace
i couldn't have put it better myself...you can choose ignorance over knowledge, but don't go and "frown" upon people when their beliefs don't conform with yours!
Last edited by Ummu Sufyaan; 06-16-2009 at 02:50 AM.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
No the one that made all your ancestors would. So you think being moral and unmoral has no bearing on your afterlife? you just eat, drink go to sleep and die and never contemplate if at all it realy matters at all?
Tao is everything, so I guess it's suitable to say he could punish me, since me and my ancestors are part of Tao too.
I do not say what happens after death, and I don't think anyone should, but many do. I do not know what happens after this life, maybe we are reincarnated, maybe we come before God, maybe we turn into spirits, or maybe we just turn into nothingness.
Pygoscelis, have you ever tried to understand the concept of God?
I suspect that most atheists and agnostics started life as followers of a particular religion and became atheists and agnostic after spending many hours considering the question – does God exist. It’s much easier to follow the suggestion that God does exist (see Pascal’s wager) and far harder to deny it, not least because if we’re wrong there is the possibility of undesirable consequences on judgment day. If there is a God and I am called to account I will say, “you gave me the intellect and ability to critically analyse the evidence and form a view, I must presume that when you gave me that ability you expected me to use it, I used it and formed the view that your existence was a possibility but unlikely, I also formed the view if you did exist you would judge me well if I acted honestly and was true to my convictions and would be angry with me if I simply followed the lead of others because of fear or because it brought me comfort.”
It’s much easier to follow the suggestion that God does exist (see Pascal’s wager)
Yea it makes more sense.
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).
[QUOTE=Thinker;1166509]I suspect that most atheists and agnostics started life as followers of a particular religion and became atheists and agnostic after spending many hours considering the question – does God exist. It’s much easier to follow the suggestion that God does exist (see Pascal’s wager) and far harder to deny it, not least because if we’re wrong there is the possibility of undesirable consequences on judgment day. If there is a God and I am called to account I will say, “you gave me the intellect and ability to critically analyse the evidence and form a view, I must presume that when you gave me that ability you expected me to use it, I used it and formed the view that your existence was a possibility but unlikely, I also formed the view if you did exist you would judge me well if I acted honestly and was true to my convictions and would be angry with me if I simply followed the lead of others because of fear or because it brought me comfort.”[/QUOTE]
wow you seriously have even thought of an excuse - all i can say on that day - you'll know when the excuses are lame.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
I suspect that most atheists and agnostics started life as followers of a particular religion and became atheists and agnostic after spending many hours considering the question – does God exist. It’s much easier to follow the suggestion that God does exist (see Pascal’s wager) and far harder to deny it, not least because if we’re wrong there is the possibility of undesirable consequences on judgment day. If there is a God and I am called to account I will say, “you gave me the intellect and ability to critically analyse the evidence and form a view, I must presume that when you gave me that ability you expected me to use it, I used it and formed the view that your existence was a possibility but unlikely, I also formed the view if you did exist you would judge me well if I acted honestly and was true to my convictions and would be angry with me if I simply followed the lead of others because of fear or because it brought me comfort.”
your 'self' can justify many things to you that are both speculative and defective...
God, I get a thrill out of kleptomania, I was driven in spite of absence of any economic motive to steal...if you didn't want me as a Klepto why did you create me this way?
God, I was attracted to that woman, I was overcome with desire, I raped her in the back ally.. well if you didn't want me to rape her, why did you madden me with desire and love.
God, I thought about it, I contemplated everything in the known universe, the billion biochemical pathways in my body, the animals, the fruits of the earth, the change of season, the planetary cycles, couldn't classify any of it under the principle of parsimony but figured, if you wanted me to be a believer, you'd have descended down on a gold chariot to show me your magical being.
Don't mistake your desires/ hopes and comfort for what God intends, firstly, you are not God to fathom what he intends for this world, and secondly when you deny him all together don't coax yourself into believing it will all be ok.. Just make up your own mind about what you want for yourself but not integrate into some universal theme or a divine injunction for this world...
I am glad you stumbled upon that it is harder to be an atheist.. indeed, I believe that to be true.. you constantly have to convince and prove to yourself something that can potentially bite you in a horrific and eternal way... instinctive indeed is the belief in God, being a rebel doesn't equal free thoughts, at least to me, it is a sign of lack of gratitude!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
If god turns out to exist and to be as described in the bible or quran I would feel no need to justify myself to him. Nor would I respect his judgment. Sure, if he is all powerful he could torture me for this, but that doesn't make bowing down to such a tyrant noble or good.
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because evolution/things coming into existence due to natural circumstance is based on existence coming from non-existence, whereas religion is based on existence coming from existence. abu hanifah's argument is stating that that cannot happen simply because it isn't logical/possible...so your thinking is a little flawed!
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