He replied, "Wretches! And yet you say that all these existant beings, in the higher and lower worlds, and every intricately precise thing they contain, have no maker?"
And did he also tell them that thunder was a sign of the maker's anger and that plagues and famine were the maker's way of punishing those that did not worship him? And, who made the maker?
And did he also tell them that thunder was a sign of the maker's anger and that plagues and famine were the maker's way of punishing those that did not worship him?
And did he also tell them that thunder was a sign of the maker's anger and that plagues and famine were the maker's way of punishing those that did not worship him? And, who made the maker?
you need to get your head out of the christain europe - the maker is the uncreated cause as nothing goes back to infinity.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
If the maker can exist yet be uncreated, why can't the universe?
2)
Wny is an infinite past harder to accept than an uncreated entity?
1 - Big bang theory - who made thebig bang on and on to the maker - first cause.
2 - can things keep going back forever and and ever? there has to be a first cause otherwise we would keep going back and back to infinity - which doesnt exist - so it stops somewhere - to the maker. - infinite regress.
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
This is a good reasoning for religious people, but it leaves the evidence of the theory of evolution as a good arguement.
However, thinking about stuff like this and thinking about evolution, I am changing my way of life as Agnostic now. Though, that does not mean I am leaning towards Islam or any religion in this issue (if anything, towards a kind of... deterministic nihilism).
I am simply in the middle and have been, actually.
By the way, I don't know why this is so convincing for Muslims. Atheists see humans as evolved after billions of years and don't fall too easily for the "suddenly put together" arguement.
This is a good reasoning for religious people, but it leaves the evidence of the theory of evolution as a good arguement.
However, thinking about stuff like this and thinking about evolution, I am changing my way of life as Agnostic now. Though, that does not mean I am leaning towards Islam or any religion in this issue (if anything, towards a kind of... deterministic nihilism).
I am simply in the middle and have been, actually.
By the way, I don't know why this is so convincing for Muslims. Atheists see humans as evolved after billions of years and don't fall too easily for the "suddenly put together" arguement.
so do you believe everything happend by random chance?
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Could you please enlighten us as to what is wrong with the reasoning?
I can't speak for Clover but in my opinion also the reasoning is faulty.
It's basically a different spin on the watchmaker argument. From our experience we know ships are man-made for a purpose defined by man. You can go to the shipyard and watch them being built.
The argument by Hanifa is basically "Aha! So if a ship is so obviously created and controlled by a maker/guide then so is every other complex thing".
Except that we do have experience of animals and plants and other things being created and it's not by some supernatural maker. They reproduce sexually (usually), Mummy and Daddy cat get together and make baby cat.
I've never seen or heard of a cat appearing out of nowhere or being created from dust or anything else out of a religious creation story, so why would I assume that they are true when there's a perfectly reasonable alternative that I've seen with my own eyes?
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
2 - can things keep going back forever and and ever? there has to be a first cause otherwise we would keep going back and back to infinity - which doesnt exist - so it stops somewhere - to the maker. - infinite regress.
At what point did the maker start existing and what happened to start it?
At what point did the maker start existing and what happened to start it?
At what point did your great, great, great , great, great, great ,great,great,great,great,great,great,great,grea,gr eat,great, great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great Grandma exsist and what happend to start it?
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
I would suggest (give what I know about humans) that my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great Grandma and Grandad got a bit familiar and nine months later out she popped.
I would suggest (give what I know about humans) that my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great Grandma and Grandad got a bit familiar and nine months later out she popped.
You haven't answered my question.
at what point did this happen - and how can you be 100% sure thats exactly how it happend - I am trying to answer your question - we're going back in time - first we have to find at what point did your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great Grandma existed so we can go further back until we get to the maker.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
What I find good is a few snide comments; one in particular...
Clover: I figured out the point. Good story, although I have to laugh at the reasoning, it's a good story.
Could you please enlighten us as to what is wrong with the reasoning?
...wow.
Just to clue you in, I really didn't get it at first, I had (I do believe) first posted, can someone explain it, when I did, I had to laugh at my own ignorance in figuring it out. Now I have to laugh at your assumption.
I never said anything was wrong with the reasoning. You might wana ask if someone means for it to be a malicious comment, before you assume it is.
And did he also tell them that thunder was a sign of the maker's anger and that plagues and famine were the maker's way of punishing those that did not worship him? And, who made the maker?
[2:22] Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith fruits for your sustenance;---
[2:164]
Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the Night and the Day; in the sailing of the ships through the Ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth, (here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.
[2:265]
And the likeness of those who spend their substance, seeking to please Allah and to strengthen their souls, is as a garden, high and fertile; heavy rain falls on it but makes it yield a double increase of harvest, and if it receives not heavy rain, light moisture sufficeth it. Allah seeth well whatever ye do.
[6:6] See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - Generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom we poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet):
6:99]
It is He Who sendeth down rain from the skies; with it We produce vegetation of all kinds: from some We produce green (crops), out of which We produce grain, heaped up (at harvest); out of the date palm and its sheaths (or spathes) (come) clusters of dates hanging low and near: and (then there are) gardens of grapes, and olives, and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety): when they begin to bear fruit, feast your eyes with the fruit and the ripeness thereof. Behold! in these things there are Signs for people who believe.
[7:57] It is He Who sendeth the Winds like heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy: when they have carried the heavy-laden clouds, We drive them to a land that is dead, make rain to descend thereon, and produce every kind of harvest therewith: thus shall We raise up the dead perchance ye may remember
[8:11]
Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and He caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.
[10:24]
The likeness of the life of the Present is as the rain which We send down from the skies: by its mingling arises the produce of the earth, which provides food for men and animals: (it grows) till the earth is clad with its golden ornaments and is decked out (in beauty): the people to whom it belongs think they have all powers of disposal over it: there reaches it Our command by night or by day, and We make it like a harvest clean-mown, as if it had not flourished only the day before! thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who reflect.
I am at a loss as to what you base your opinion on? ills that befell people who were mentioned were a direct result of their tyranny and their deeds are so mentioned-- you are not fit to judge who is deserving of punishment!
.we are created otherwise to be tried: ( I don't know what you think your purpose is here on earth) but I guarantee it will not sway much beyond the seven universal themes ..
[90:4] Verily We have created man into toil and struggle.
you are not God to decide who was sinful and who is being tested..
Isn't it kind of embarrassing to make false assumptions, and present it as facts to theists? are you hoping we'd be as unread and presumptuous as your average atheist?
your latter question is a logical fallacy.
Last edited by جوري; 06-11-2009 at 04:24 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
at what point did this happen - and how can you be 100% sure thats exactly how it happend
Well I can never be 100% sure of anything. Based on the fact that my ancestors were most likely human it's reasonable to assume it happened that way. If you're really interested I could ask my father to go through his research and see if he can find you her name and date of birth, my family has lived in this area for about 900 years.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
I am trying to answer your question - we're going back in time
Don't think I don't understand you, I know exactly what you're saying.
I wasn't really expecting an answer such as "the creator appeared at 16,534BC on a thursday afternoon".
You state that Allah created everything but he hasn't been around forever. The problem I and other non-religious people have is that you seem to find it perfectly acceptable for God to *pop* into existence without a cause or a maker, but it is totally unacceptable for you to think that the universe might have come about like this.
It's such an obviously human thing to do to assume that everything must have a cause and a reason, simply because that's how we go about things.
People are presented with the problem of an uncreated universe and replace it with an uncreated universe creator.
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, 'If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?
In the example given here the narrator asks why “If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the . . . universe came into being without a creator?
The answer is because people know how boats are created and know that they don’t just magically appear and although they don’t know how the universe was created they know that man has witnessed many amazing natural events that the ancients previously put down to the work of God and now they know that are ‘natural events, science has proved them not to be the work of God.
So using the same logic as used by Abu Hanifah Rahimullah one could argue that as man once ascribed lightning, famines and plagues to work of God and now science has proved them to be natural events then science will ultimately find proof that all those things we ascribe to be the work of God to be natural and explainable events; it’s the same type of reasoning.
In the example given here the narrator asks why “If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the . . . universe came into being without a creator?
The answer is because people know how boats are created and know that they don’t just magically appear and although they don’t know how the universe was created they know that man has witnessed many amazing natural events that the ancients previously put down to the work of God and now they know that are ‘natural events, science has proved them not to be the work of God.
Science can't prove or disprove whether or not it is the work of God, only that it is witnessed-- Nothing in science at the very core of will give you a cause or intention underlying an action-- it will merely give you a how and in many cases only to a particular extent!.. take any cycle in the human body.. say glycolysis,
why do we have glycolysis? to harness energy-- why do we need energy?-- to do work, why do we need to do work? to thrive-- why do we need to thrive? how did the body know to incorporate this cycle? how did it come to be in harmony and in this ten step wise process? how do most monosaccharides know to enter this cycle, at set points, how does this cycle know when to have a rate limiting step, or work harmoniously with others so that there are no futile cycles etc-- does science have an answer to any of those? no, only that it exists, that it is wonderful, that if you have a problem at this stage or that stage, you'll have an anemia or petrous teeth or left output heart failure or or or.. none you'll notice actually address the most important questions.. the deep ones of the ages. you are taking it from the deep of very superficial when you attempt and rightfully so to explain it, but you'll only go so far, although you are certainly welcome to the day when science offers you all the answers, right after it finds a cure for the common cold!
Has science an answer for why they happen 'naturally' on their 'own volition'? as for the term 'Natural' you have but imaginary standard by which things are measured or compared.. if you didn't have things as they are, how would you define "natural' in fact what appears 'Natural' to you is quite phenomenal, not only are you unable to re-produce it to establish it as natural but you suffer greatly when missing it, any lowly enzyme in your body that you don't have a name to, will guarantee you a form of suffering that you'd pay a fortune for some doctor/scientist to synthesize using vectors or liposomes or stem research or as body parts from some worthless sap etc.
Notice all that sophistication and yet people are done in by a microorganism 50 to 120nm in diameter...
Is it any wonder that those who appreciate the creator's power the most are scientists and not those who feign being scientists?
[35:28] ---- This is why the people who truly reverence GOD are those who are knowledgeable. GOD is Almighty, Forgiving.
So using the same logic as used by Abu Hanifah Rahimullah one could argue that as man once ascribed lightning, famines and plagues to work of God and now science has proved them to be natural events then science will ultimately find proof that all those things we ascribe to be the work of God to be natural and explainable events; it’s the same type of reasoning.
see above explanation including that illusive definition of 'Natural'--scientists merely gave you some basic steps to its mechanics, they have neither explained why they exist to begin with, how they came about in this planet or why under perfectly 'natural' conditions, the clouds behave in what seems to them a stochastic processes they look gravid, thunder and lightening yet give no rain, it rains when it isn't supposed to rain, all conditions favoring rain yet no rain at all.... in fact it is all planned, whether or not you wish to ascribe it to a creator.
all the best
Last edited by جوري; 06-11-2009 at 08:02 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Well I can never be 100% sure of anything. Based on the fact that my ancestors were most likely human it's reasonable to assume it happened that way. If you're really interested I could ask my father to go through his research and see if he can find you her name and date of birth, my family has lived in this area for about 900 years.
Don't think I don't understand you, I know exactly what you're saying.
I wasn't really expecting an answer such as "the creator appeared at 16,534BC on a thursday afternoon". You state that Allah created everything but he hasn't been around forever. The problem I and other non-religious people have is that you seem to find it perfectly acceptable for God to *pop* into existence without a cause or a maker, but it is totally unacceptable for you to think that the universe might have come about like this.
It's such an obviously human thing to do to assume that everything must have a cause and a reason, simply because that's how we go about things.
People are presented with the problem of an uncreated universe and replace it with an uncreated universe creator.
Yes i knew that you knew where this little talk was heading.
Its true it is a very human thing to think that every thing has a cause and a reason unlike the other direction where the universe has no cause - which doesnt seem to sit well with the human Psyche - on religous terms we call that going against Fithrah.
ps - I never stated the bold.
Last edited by Zafran; 06-11-2009 at 08:08 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Yes i knew that you knew where this little talk was heading.
Well I wasn't expecting that you were stupid or had never considered this before, but it's pretty inevitable that the subject would steer in this direction, it's the one of the most glaring problems with creation from an outsiders point of view.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
ps - I never stated the bold.
Well it wasn't a direct quote, you said:
2 - can things keep going back forever and and ever? there has to be a first cause otherwise we would keep going back and back to infinity - which doesnt exist - so it stops somewhere - to the maker. - infinite regress.
I simply presumed you believe God created everything (in the beginning), correct me if I'm wrong.
And the nothingness said, "Let there be God," and there was God. Nothingness saw that the God was good.
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