The title is intended to be a humorous introduction to a serious matter.
For an Islamic forum we do have a high non-Muslim membership. To some of our Muslim members this comes as a shock and some even see it as a bad trend. To some of our non-Muslim members it may be a bit scary to be around all of us Muslims.
It is this diversity that makes LI what it is.
while most of the time it leads to interesting and constructive dialog, there are also times it leads to problems. Sometimes the problems appear to be insurmountable.But when we analyze our perceived problems they often only exist in our minds and our personal fears and dislikes.
Some of our Muslim members may see it as katowing to or pacifying non-Muslims. Some non-Muslims may see it as a means to belittle and insult non-Muslims. Neither is the intent of this forum.
One of the most noticed things about this forum is it is a reasonably safe place to discuss our differences and come to an understanding of how to live together in the solid, material world outside of the internet.
I am hoping this thread can/will become a dialog in which we can each express our expectations of what we think the forum should be. We want to know if there are areas in need of improvement? Do our Muslim members feel the non-Muslim members have too much freedom to discuss their religion ? Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly? Are we actually benefiting anybody and if so who is being benefited?
This thread is really getting on my nerves. Surely it is our duty as Muslims to sit patiently and discuss and debate issues relevant to todays society with Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
I would like to make one thing clear. I have been on this forum for almost 5 years now and at one point was a VERY active member. Due to one reason and another my attendance declined but recently felt I would like to rejoin. The attitude and manners (or lack of) shown by some Muslims towards non-Muslims is shocking. It has made me rethink my wish to join here.
The one thing I would like to say on the issue is ....... shouldn't we consider how the Prophet (saw) would deal with non-Muslims? How did he live with non-Muslims? A class I attended last week was discussing how at the time of the Prophet there was religious coexistence rather than religious tolerance. Nowadays everyone preaches tolerance but as Muslims we should strive much further than this. We have much more in common with non-Muslims than many people like to think.
And another thing....every time one of us(as Muslims) is disrespectful, rude or patronising towards others we are giving the reward to the others and are accumulating sins instead.
We all need to think and rethink before we speak(or post). Less haste.
well if the non muslim starts abusing our religion and can't speak in a respectful manner then i think we as muslims should not tolerate that then and these non muslims should be banned.
because its a total waste of time trying to argue with these types of non muslims who make out that islam is the cause of oppression in the world. it just really gets on my nerves these stupid trolls who don't want to learn about islam at all.
personally if a non muslim came to me and asked me where is the best place to learn islam, i would not recommend a forum for learning this deen because not only is there trolls which join a forum there is also some dodgy muslims which join too some extremist muslims and non practicing muslims
however there is some brilliant muslims on board who are brilliant at arguing with non muslims in polite straight forward manner however i wish i could say the same for everyone.
I just keep out of debates because i am no good in debating.
I'm not sure why you think I don't understand the hadeeth. I do see that it is largely about the relationship between Allah and his servant. Reading it out of context, I don't know if "the servant" is specifically Muhammad (this is what I suspect, or if it could apply to any servant of Allah (which would seem equally applicable to me even if it was originally intended as a reference to Muhammad).
It is equally applicable.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The problem is not with my ability to understand the passage, but with a difference in our hermeneutical approach to it. As the issue of being at war is NOT central to the passage, I see no need for including it and if choosing said hadeeth for my signature, would have begun with the second sentence.
I am sorry, but you are reading too much into things and being somewhat over-sensitive about this. You say you understand that the word war is NOT central to the passage, yet say thus there is no need to include it. That seems somewhat contradictory to me. If you understand that it's not the central thing in the passage, then there shouldn't be a problem because your understanding is telling you it's not central. Again, I feel a whole issue is being created here out of a signature.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Thus, for me and my understanding, to use the first sentence in conjunction with the rest of the hadeeth is to say that this first sentence speaks to the person quoting it on par with the rest of the hadeeth. If that is the case, then it seems that the issue of being at war with those who show enmity to those devoted to Allah is just as significant to the poster as is the rest of the hadeeth. Now, you (pardon me if it was another and not you) say that in Islam one quotes the whole of the hadeeth. That is not my hermeneutic, but I can respect the pattern. So, then, I suggest that one has to take a look at the whole of the hadeeth, not just one portion of it, and ask oneself if the whole of the thing speaks for the poster or not. If so, post it. If not, then don't.
It is a whole hadeeth. As I stated before, and I'm happy to state again, we don't leave out bits we think others might not like. I can understand that that word war in there probably isn't to your liking, but the whole hadeeth will still get quoted. We are not apologetic about any of the words in the Qur'an or hadeeth, and feel no need to remove portions to cater to the sensibilities of others who may not like it, or who may draw their own incorrect inferences from it. If Allah says He is at war with those who show enmity to those devoted to Him, as part of a longer passage in which He comforts and encourages those devoted to Him, there is absolutely no need to remove/cut/edit/delete sentences from it, at all.
I'm afraid I don't subscribe to this "does the whole thing speak for you? If so post it, and if not then don't" theory. Whole hadeeths will be posted, and if someone doesn't like that or can't understand it, I'm sorry.
Perhaps the problem that you perceive exists lies here: You are viewing it very much as "are our signatures representative of us, or are the hadeeths we post, is every single word representative of us, or of our personal opinion." When we post, we are posting the whole hadeeth; we are not thinking of "is it representative of us or our personal opinion?", we want to post the whole hadeeth, without additions or deletions, just all of Allah's (or the Prophet's as the case may be) beautiful words in the passage, and that however the passage was transmitted in the hadeeth, we are transmitting it completely unadulterated in the same way.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But if one does post it, recognize that one has post a hadeeth in one's signature that speaks in a particular way with regard to war, and to ask the rest of us to ignore that just because one says something diametrically the opposite of that in one's post is asking too much.
I am sorry that's asking too much of you!
Peace.
Last edited by Insaanah; 07-17-2010 at 11:06 PM.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
You need not apologize for anything in Islam. Islam isn't Christianity, God will not mold the religion to acquiesce to the desires of televangelists and the likes whose sole existence is about stealth crusading using whatever ignoble means.
I didn't even wish to dignify that whole statement with a response partially because of the baseness with which it brings down the religion and secondly because it was completely irrelevant and as stated earlier some will stoop to whatever means to create an issue where there is none to state grievances which they have created in their mind with the expectation that we are to modify parts and constituents to cater to their whims..
Isn't that exactly what ails them and what ails their religion?
53:23] ------- They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire! Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
It is not a duty upon muslims to be patient with non-muslims who come to attack Islam. It is our duty to answer questions from non-muslims and muslims if they are seeking clarification or dawah. Meaningless debate which is what a lot of topics particularly in certain areas of this forum digress too is not islamic neither do I think it is pleasent for muslims to have to constantly defend Islam from such attacks on a muslim forum. If the non-muslims have a question they can get an answer if they dont like the answer move on. Why certain topics turn into 50 page debates when the answer was clarfied on page 1, I dont understand.
The example of the hadith in sis Skye's signature on this topic is just one example.
Salam
I actually appreciate the points you have made. I get that while I may think it appropriate to be selective in the quoting of just those portions of a hadeeth that reflect one's viewpoints, that for a Muslim it might be inappropriate to do any editing. That leads to another question, but not one for this thread.
I also get that Muslims are going to value different things than do non-Muslims. And I can see how this particular hadeeth would have value to the Muslim. I can even see how that portion that I am not enamored by might have meaning to the Muslim.
What I am asking you and others that take offence to me drawing attention to it to see, is that if someone posts something such as this hadeeth as one's signature, that others who read it might understand it to be reflective of that poster's views. And as such, the views of the signature and the views of the written post that The Vales Lily made expressed two points of view that she might hold as consistent with one another, but might be just as easily seen as inconsistent by others.
This thread began by asking the question:
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly?
Apparently the answer to that question is:
format_quote Originally Posted by Lisa0
If the non-muslims have a question they can get an answer if they dont like the answer move on.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 07-18-2010 at 03:11 AM.
No one is taking offense at you drawing attention to the hadith, if we wanted to hide it we wouldn't post it for a siggy so that it is read over and over-- we are rather marveling at the irrelevance with which you desire to espouse this hadith with the matter at hand.. how desperate are you for a straw-man?
I fear that your definition of inconsistency is lost to us, perhaps you can get a couple of board jesters and yes men to validate your views so that what you wrote here would have some semblance of credence!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
[FONT="Book Antiqua"][COLOR="DimGray"][SIZE="3"][B]No one is taking offense at you drawing attention to the hadith, if we wanted to hide it we wouldn't post it for a siggy so that it is read over and over-- we are rather marveling at the irrelevance with which you desire to espouse this hadith with the matter at hand..
It sure seemed to me like some were taking offence. But if not, then that's good. We are done. Some will see the relevance and some won't. That's just the way it is.
It sure seemed to me like some were taking offence. But if not, then that's good. We are done. Some will see the relevance and some won't. That's just the way it is.
All the best.
wise words indeed.. and we are glad for their evolution thereafter .. ever the diplomat you are!
off topic,
but as someone else has previously said, 100% honestly, the hadith on sis lily's signature was among my most favorite hadith when I was on the down.
It gives good news to muslims that as long as we completely live our life for Allah SWT, then we should not be worried or afraid of anything or anyone.
What I am asking you and others that take offence to me drawing attention to it to see,
None of us has taken offence at it. If anything I'm somewhat bemused by all this.
And, as to your "drawing attention to it" for all to see, that is a non-issue, because the signature is there openly for all to read, there's nothing to hide in it, be embarrassed of, or apologise about. Everyone in this forum has read it, and nobody else seems to have the vaguest problem with that beautiful hadeeth. Most likely because people read the whole hadeeth and see that
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
It gives good news to muslims that as long as we completely live our life for Allah SWT, then we should not be worried or afraid of anything or anyone.
Nowhere in that passage is Allah telling His servant to declare war; Allah is stating His own position, yet despite that, there is a repeated and persistent insistence that somehow the person using that signature is doing so because they are at war with others in some way.
I can see how this repeated and persistent insistence at reading something into the passage that is clearly not there must be exasperating.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
is that if someone posts something such as this hadeeth as one's signature, that others who read it might understand it to be reflective of that poster's views. And as such, the views of the signature and the views of the written post that The Vales Lily made expressed two points of view that she might hold as consistent with one another, but might be just as easily seen as inconsistent by others.
Clarified above.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
This thread began by asking the question:
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly?
Apparently the answer to that question is:
Originally Posted by Lisa0
If the non-muslims have a question they can get an answer if they dont like the answer move on.
I don't think Lisa0 is attempting to answer that question here. The statement by her in no way suggests that people must be stifled. A degree of common sense must prevail here amongst those asking questions too. If five or six pages of a thread are devoted to one question, which a person has answered, yet there is a repeated persistence at asking the same question again and again hoping for the answer to be changed (as happened to me in another thread with another person a few months ago, I'm not talking about this thread), thus a reply repeatedly given explaining the answer and the reason for it, and if the responder eventually sounds exasperated, that is not stifling of speech.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
We are done.
I think that is of benefit to everyone.
Peace.
Last edited by Insaanah; 07-18-2010 at 01:39 PM.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
You are absolutely right, you don't use the us vs. them approach, rather the I have read and confused approach for instance, you've read the Quran cover to cover yet confused about the 'mohammedan practice' of pilgrimage in which you not only missed a good 23~24 verses on the matter but a chapter so entitled!
you are confused as to why God would grant respite to Muslim women during the fast of Ramadan so you conclude it must be because God despises women and thinks they are dirty. conveniently ignoring verses in the bible that actually echo that exact sentiment that you wish to project unto Islam.
you are confused as to why we fast, and decide to fast a day in 'show of solidarity' yet come with the verse from your bible that you don't desire to fast as you put it 'the hypocrites do' which in fact for no other reason than learning of the hardships and discipline that Muslims go through, so 'hypocrisy' seems like a nicer alternative!
etc. etc. but who is keeping record when you are so fair, and just and loving?
all the best
Greetings, Lily
Your post really took me aback, and I have been thinking about it ever since I first read it.
You see, I make no apology for asking questions, sometimes even challenging questions.
It is how I learn and engage with new topics.
Not only with Islam, but with many other things in my daily life too - I ask similar questions of my own faith, of politics, of work related issues, or personal relationships etc etc.
Without asking questions, how can I learn and grow and develop??
I try my very, very hardest to ask questions in ways which are not insulting or offensive. If I don't always succeed, then I apologise. But believe me that it is never my intention to offend!
I cannot and will not go into the individual points you have raised. The original threads are likely to have disappeared in the recent forum crashes, and this really isn't the place to resurrect them - it would take the thread completely off topic ...
Let me just say that of the issues you have mentioned, some I have come to understand better - thanks to the kind explanations people have offered -, others I continue to disagree and/or struggle with, and others still you have simply misunderstood.
I will leave it at that.
* * *
What really took me aback most, Lily, is that these discussions/disagreements to which you refer happened months, some even several years ago!
Have you remembered them and held a grudge for so long?
If so, why??
Because I asked questions pertaining to your faith?
Because I disagreed with the answers?
Because you couldn't persuade me otherwise?
Lily, we may disagree on certain aspects of our lives and/or faiths ... but that doesn't mean we have to be enemies, dislike each other or never agree with each other in any other aspects!
Please, not for my sake or the sake of anybody else here, but for your own sake, learn to let things go, forgive and move on.
Don't let anger and bitterness eat you up!
I hope and pray that you will receive this post in the spirit in which it is intended – as a gesture of peace and friendship.
God's peace and joy to you, Lily
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Your post really took me aback, and I have been thinking about it ever since I first read it.
I can't imagine why? I have always been very straight forward-- or is it that you don't like your shortcomings aired out in public but enjoy dispensing with them in an occult fashion in hopes others will see them for something other than what they are?
You see, I make no apology for asking questions, sometimes even challenging questions.
It is how I learn and engage with new topics.
I have never found any of your Q's challenging, I find them to be boldly marked by deception, ill thought of, and then abandoned when at a loss to reconcile with your own convictions!
Not only with Islam, but with many other things in my daily life too - I ask similar questions of my own faith, of politics, of work related issues, or personal relationships etc etc.
What you do in your personal time is of no interest to the topic here!
Without asking questions, how can I learn and grow and develop??
There are multitudes of ways to ask Q's for instance if you wanted to ask about 'mohameddan practices outside of the Quran', don't firstly allege that you've read the Quran cover to cover-- what do you think? in the least to loan your queries some semblance of truth seeking- The reality is you constantly tighten the noose around your neck and then allege that you have asked 'the tough question' if in fact those are tough questions, then I pity your simple minded existence!
I try my very, very hardest to ask questions in ways which are not insulting or offensive. If I don't always succeed, then I apologise. But believe me that it is never my intention to offend!
I think your honesty is something you have to work out with yourself!
I cannot and will not go into the individual points you have raised. The original threads are likely to have disappeared in the recent forum crashes, and this really isn't the place to resurrect them - it would take the thread completely off topic ...
Let me just say that of the issues you have mentioned, some I have come to understand better - thanks to the kind explanations people have offered -, others I continue to disagree and/or struggle with, and others still you have simply misunderstood.
I will leave it at that.
Convenient!
* * *
What really took me aback most, Lily, is that these discussions/disagreements to which you refer happened months, some even several years ago!
Have you remembered them and held a grudge for so long?
If so, why??
you continue in fact on the same path, and I hold no grudges against random forumers if I did then I wouldn't simply say it as it is!
Because I asked questions pertaining to your faith?
Because I disagreed with the answers?
Because you couldn't persuade me otherwise?
If you are keen on rhetoric and drawing satisfaction out of your overly-simplistic conclusions in that smarmy way you have mastered and enjoy dispensing with, then why do you keep being a member of this forum? I find your queries and conclusions inane at best? and do Pls. do tell of a time I have solicited you at all to be Muslim-- in fact I insist on it!
Lily, we may disagree on certain aspects of our lives and/or faiths ... but that doesn't mean we have to be enemies, dislike each other or never agree with each other in any other aspects!
as stated before I make no emotional investment in random forumers-- but I choose the friends I keep, and their their trust and friendship is earned, not thrust upon!
Please, not for my sake or the sake of anybody else here, but for your own sake, learn to let things go, forgive and move on.
Don't let anger and bitterness eat you up!
You are way too funny.. you have made up your own fulsome movie and live in it and expect everyone else to take part in it!
I hope and pray .
You do that!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
That's one way of putting it. I don't think I've seen anything quite as unjustified, arrogant and unpleasant as that since I've been here, and aimed at glo of all people. Very, very sad.
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Akhi wa Ukhti, Peace to our non-Muslim members,
as the case may be) beautiful words in the passage, and that however the passage was transmitted in the hadeeth, we are transmitting it completely unadulterated in the same way.
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