I realize there are very few adherents of JW beliefs present as members and any answers would most likely be the personal opinions of just a few people. Most of us here have very little knowledge of JWs and do not understand how they differ from other groups that call themselves Christian. I do realize that JWs do differ very much from the other denominations to such a large degree that many who call themselves Christian do not consider JWs to be Christians.
Mainstream Christians believe that God (the father) is divine, Jesus (peace be upon him) is divine, and the holy spirit is divine.
Jehovah's witnesses believe that God (Jehovah) is divine and Jesus (peace be upon him) is divine.
Muslims believe that only Allah is divine.
No lesser gods, no greater gods, no equals, no sons, no trinity, no persons, no godheads, no sharers/associates in divinity whatsoever.
Peace.
Last edited by Insaanah; 11-16-2010 at 10:41 AM.
Reason: Typo
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
Mainstream Christians believe that God (the father) is divine, Jesus (peace be upon him) is divine, and the holy spirit is divine.
Close enough for government work, but not close enough for a technical or nuanced theological conversation.
Mainstream Christsianity believes that God is divine, that there are not other gods than God (neither lesser, nor greater); God is the only god. God is one, eternal, uncreated, and almighty over all his works. There is none like him. And one of the things in which there is none like him is that he exists in communion and community within himself -- one being, yet three persons. So, you can't say that God is the Father that would be an incomplete understanding of God, because God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all three in one. You'll note that we never say "the Gods are", but rather "God [singular] is."
So, from the point of view of mainstream Christianity, the better way to state what you have worded would be God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is divine, and Jesus is the manifestation of this divine being appearing in the flesh.
I can understand that. I get people challenging my religious beliefs all the time, even here. And the Bible translated by JWs, the New World Translation, is always being attacked as containing errors.
No one has challenged my convictions as of yet!
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Maybe that was what you needed to do. Sort things out for yourself without having other people telling you what to think.
No one has ever told me what to think as evinced by the fact that I WASN'T A PRACTICING MUSLIM PRIOR TO 911. However I needed the time to reflect.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
The Sep 11 attacks must have polarized the thinking of many people either for or against Islam.
Indeed I started out thinking if Muslims have anything to do with this then I want nothing to do with this religion.. Then I picked up the Quran, ahadith and rediscovered this beautiful religion.. the same way many others find it by doing exactly that!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
No one has ever told me what to think as evinced by the fact that I WASN'T A PRACTICING MUSLIM PRIOR TO 911. However I needed the time to reflect.
Indeed I started out thinking if Muslims have anything to do with this then I want nothing to do with this religion.. Then I picked up the Quran, ahadith and rediscovered this beautiful religion.. the same way many others find it by doing exactly that!
all the best
My own story isn't as dramatic as yours, I think. When my mother gave birth to my younger brother she discovered that he had deformities and would be severely mentally handicapped (Down's syndrome). She had already stuggled with poverty and had undergone a lot of hardship and disappointment in life. This further development made her wonder what was the meaning of a life so filled with trouble. So she began to search for God.
She went to a church to pray and ask for help. But she felt no comfort at all. She just felt empty and went home. Then some people called on our door to talk about religion. There were the Mormons and also the Jehovah's Witnesses. In addition my mother took an interest in the Ambassador College Church of God and subscribed to their magazines. I also had two older brothers and one of them took a special interest in the Jehovah's Witnesses teachings. This amazed me because I didn't think that he was at all religiously minded. I was in my teenage years and had a strong belief, like most people, in evolution. So I personally didn't believe in the Bible, not in Genesis anyway. But in discussions with my mother I began to see that scientific proof for evolution was lacking. I was very proud and didn't want to admit to being wrong. But gradually I realised that evolution was wrong and the Bible was indeed right. Because of this and because of my respect for my older bother, I began to study with JWs as well. I started to learn very surprising things that I never knew were in the Bible.
It took a long time but my mother finally got to see that JWs were the only ones with the truth and she rejected the Mormons and all the other religions. I also took a long time to dedicate myself partly because of the JWs strict rules of moral conduct but also because I didn't find it easy to preach from door to door. But after four years I got baptized.
I didn't tell you whether my story was dramatic or not.. I did spend a great deal of time studying religion.. there was no emotionality during my studies.. no sob stories and no door to door service for me to finally see the light.. either way I didn't share any details of my story beyond the initiative for my studies nor have I asked for details of yours that it isn't appreciated but it is hardly in keeping with the thread title '' why I chose Jehvoism' would be more appropriate!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Not me. In fact I appreciate the opportunity to ask questions of you regarding your beliefs in this setting. Much preferable to an unanticipated knock at my door. Not that they are unwelcomed, but the timing is often not as convenient as posting here is.
Yet you've also made a point that there are many mighty ones. To say that God is THE Almighty One among the many Mighty Ones then needs something to substantiate it beyond a presupposition that it is so. And you have yet to offer that.
Which still doesn't answer my question. YES or NO? Do you claim that Jesus was a god, a divine being in addition to Jehovah?
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I thought that I had made that clear. Yes I do claim that. This was the understanding that the early Christians had from the beginning. In the book "Early Christian Doctrines" by J. N. D. Kelly. Apologist Justin Martyr is quoted as speaking of Jesus as "a second God" on page 101 and on page 148. On page 132, Origen is cited as saying that John "accurately describes the Son simply as theos, not ho theos [referring to John 1:1]. In relation to the God of the universe He merits a secondary degree of honour; for He is not absolute goodness and truth, but His goodness and truth are a reflection and image of the Father's." And on page 128 Origen is quoted as saying that "His Deity is derivative and He is thus a "secondary God" (deuteros theos)."
(Emphasis mine)
Hiroshi, another question, if I am not imposing on you. Do you worship both the gods you believe in or just one?
If the answer to the above is one, what is the reasoning for not worshipping the other god?
Peace.
Note: In Islam there are no lesser gods, no greater gods, no less almighty gods, no secondary gods, no equals, no sons. God is Almighty. He alone is the Creator of the Universe. Anyone not Almighty is not God, and there is no hierachy of gods, some more/lesser almighty/greater than others. Purely only One God, with no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
Last edited by Insaanah; 11-20-2010 at 11:51 AM.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
Hiroshi, another question, if I am not imposing on you. Do you worship both the gods you believe in or just one?
If the answer to the above is one, what is the reasoning for not worshipping the other god?
Peace.
Note: In Islam there are no lesser gods, no greater gods, no less almighty gods, no secondary gods, no equals, no sons. God is Almighty. He alone is the Creator of the Universe. Anyone not Almighty is not God, and there is no hierachy of gods, some more/lesser almighty/greater than others. Purely only One God, with no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
Insaanah, sorry for the delay in replying. I've not had much free time recently.
The Bible uses the same word for "obeisance" (bowing down to, for example, a prophet or a king as a gesture of respect) as it does for actual religious "worship" of God. The context is what determines the meaning of the word in each case. And the Bible does say that all should bend the knee to Jesus (Philippians 2:10).
However, I do not address Jesus in prayer and I direct my worship only to God. But I pray in the name of Jesus acknowledging him to be a mediator, as a priest, and as my Lord and saviour.
The Bible uses the same word for "obeisance" (bowing down to, for example, a prophet or a king as a gesture of respect) as it does for actual religious "worship" of God.
You yourself here give the meaning of obeisance as an act of bowing down. Worship is so much more than bowing down. All that you have really shown is that it is ok to bow down to something other than God. Worship is still reserved for God alone. Hence when that bowing is understood to be an act of worship, those who follow God refuse to do it. Additionally, when the scriptures speak of Jesus being worshipped, it is not the same word as obeisance. I believe you made a faulty connection between the two in your comment.
Now, as regards your actual answer to Insaanah the logical follow-up is why, if you consider Jesus and Jehovah to distinct from one antoher and yet both be gods, would you worship one god and not the other.
Then a question of my own springing from what you have written. What does it mean to you to say that "Jesus is Lord"?
You yourself here give the meaning of obeisance as an act of bowing down. Worship is so much more than bowing down. All that you have really shown is that it is ok to bow down to something other than God. Worship is still reserved for God alone. Hence when that bowing is understood to be an act of worship, those who follow God refuse to do it.
I agree with all of that.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Additionally, when the scriptures speak of Jesus being worshipped, it is not the same word as obeisance.
Additionally, when the scriptures speak of Jesus being worshipped, it is not the same word as obeisance.
The word in question in the Greek is "proskuneo" as for example in Matthew 2:8 where King Herod declares (according to the NIV and many other versions) that he will go and worship the baby Jesus. Did people in the king's court understand the trinity doctrine? Did they understand Herod to be saying that he intended to go and worship God? Of course not!
The sense in this verse is in reference to an act of obeisance to one who will be king: Jesus. "Proskuneo" here does not mean religious worship. But in other contexts it does.
Insaanah, sorry for the delay in replying. I've not had much free time recently.
That's no problem.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
The context is what determines the meaning of the word in each case.
Who determines the context? Is that up to each individual reading it to determine what they see as the context, or is there some sort of authority that tells you what the context is?
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
However, I do not address Jesus in prayer and I direct my worship only to God.
But to Jehovah's Witnesses, they are both gods. So that could be construed as your saying that you worship both...
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I do not address Jesus in prayer and I direct my worship only to God. But I pray in the name of Jesus acknowledging him to be a mediator, as a priest, and as my Lord and saviour.
Does that mean that you can't pray to God directly, and have to go through a mediator, who is the second god?
If so:
How can you go through the mediator without asking that mediator to mediate for you (which is a form of prayer in itself)?
Or, do you pray directly to God and ask Him that the second god to be allowed to mediate for you, in which case you have directly asked God something anyway?
Or if you say you are praying in the second gods name, in that case, you are still praying to God directly without mediation, but just mentioning the name of the other god in your prayer.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
God has made Jesus to be Lord over everything. We must acknowledge that.
Is God not Lord over everything? If not, does that mean that the God that you worship is not Lord over everything, but the god that you don't worship is?
Sorry for these questions, but I am just trying to understand.
Peace.
Last edited by Insaanah; 11-27-2010 at 09:20 PM.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
Who determines the context? Is that up to each individual reading it to determine what they see as the context, or is there some sort of authority that tells you what the context is?
For example:
Matthew 4:10 "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God".
Matthew 18:26: "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him [a king], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all."
Daniel 2:46 "Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel [a prophet]".
(All quoted from the King James)
In each case the Greek word for "worship" is proskuneo (Daniel appears in Greek in the Septuagint). Usually the context is pretty clear about who is being worshipped.
So to sum it up, it sounds as though JWs believe in one Almighty God. They pray to that God in the name of Jesus. That one God is Jehovah.
But they also believe that Jesus is a god. He is the Son of God but he is not God Almighty. They worship the one Almighty God but do not worship Jesus. Jesus is a Mediator between man and God Almighty.
Also, Jesus was crucified, but was not resurrected with a physical body, but a special kind of spirit body. He was Michael the Archangel before he was born in the flesh.
Is that correct?
Did I miss something?
Last edited by Rabi Mansur; 11-28-2010 at 12:06 PM.
“All day I think about it, then at night I say it. Where did I come from, and what am I supposed to be doing? I have no idea. My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there.”
Sob7an Allah.. I was just reading about the greatest sin today and you summed it up above!
رب اغفر لي ولوالدي، رب ارحمهما كما ربياني صغيرا
عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَسْعُودٍ رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهُ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: أَيُّ الذَّنْبِ أَعْظَمُ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ؟ قَالَ: "أَنْ تَجْعَلَ لِلَّهِ نِدًّا وَهُوَ خَلَقَكَ". أخرجه أحمد (1/434 ، رقم 4131) ، والبخاري (4/1626 ، رقم 4207) ، ومسلم (1/90 ، رقم 86) ، وأبو داود (2/294 ، رقم 2310) ، والترمذي (5/336 ، رقم 3182) ، والنسائي (7/89 ، رقم 4013). ندا: أي شريكا. قال العلامة عبد المحسن بن حمد العباد البدر في "شرح تطهير الإعتقاد": الشرك بالله عبادة غير الله معه، وهو أعظمُ ذنب عُصي الله به، وهو الذنب الذي لا يغفره الله، قال الله عزَّ وجلَّ: "إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَن يَشَاء" في آيتين من سورة النساء، وهو الذنب الذي يُخلَّد صاحبُه في النار أبد الآباد، ولا سبيل له للخروج منها وقد كثرت نصوص الكتاب والسنة في النهي عن الشرك والتحذير منه وبيان خطره، بل جاءت النصوص في سدِّ الذرائع التي تؤدِّي إليه، من ذلك البناء على القبور وتعظيمها واتِّخاذها مساجد، وقد تواترت الأحاديث في ذلك عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال ابن القيم رحمه الله في كتابه إعلام الموقعين (3/151) في الوجوه التسعة والتسعين التي أوردها في سدِّ الذرائع قال: ((الوجه الثالث عشر: أنَّ النَّبيَّّ صلى الله عليه وسلم نهى عن بناء المساجد على القبور ولَعَن مَن فعل ذلك، ونهى عن تجصيص القبور وتشريفها واتِّخاذها مساجد، وعن الصلاة إليها وعندها، وعن إيقاد المصابيح عليها، وأمر بتسويتها، ونهى عن اتِّخاذها عيداً، وعن شدِّ الرحال إليها؛ لئلاَّ يكون ذلك ذريعةً إلى اتِّخاذها أوثاناً والإشراك بها، وحرم ذلك على مَن قصده ومن لم يقصده، بل قصد خلافه سدًّا للذريعة))
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Is God not Lord over everything? If not, does that mean that the God that you worship is not Lord over everything, but the god that you don't worship is?
Sorry for these questions, but I am just trying to understand.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Quote
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks