How Do Mulsims Resolve the Eyewitness Testimony of the Disciples?

**noselfwilling** · 02-05-2011

I know Muslims claim Jesus never went to the cross, but of the 45 sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death no one claims that Jesus didn't die the cross, and the bulk of these sources do mention his death on the cross (see Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus, The Historical Jesus, and The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas).

How can you come along six centuries later and say the complete opposite of what has been recorded historically? Normally historians focus on the primary sources closes to the timing of the events, so the Qu'ran is given no consideration because it has no evidence and we can't trust any spirit for that would not be prudent. Faith should be backed up by evidence. Test the spirits and "prove all things".

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4.1). If it does not line up with the word of God it is not to be trusted.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5.21).

**noselfwilling** · 02-05-2011

The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.

**Woodrow** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.

We have no doubt many people did believe they saw Jesus(as) crucified and resurrected. We are also certain that somebody was crucified and even the Roman officials believed they had crucified Jesus(as).

But based on the words of the Qur'an and quoted to us by Allaah(swt) we know it was not Jesus(as) who was crucified.

"For They Killed Him Not": A Muslim portrayal of Jesus

For They Killed Him Not

A Muslim portrayal of Jesus

“For they killed him not”: Jesus’ ascent to heaven
Just as Jesus’ entry into this world was miraculous, his departure from this world was equally so. Instead of dying a natural death, he was raised to heaven and saved from those who plotted against him.

“(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend to Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me you will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that in which you used to differ.” (Qur’an chapter 3, verse 55).

And:

“But Allah took him up to Himself. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.” (Qur’an chapter 4, verse 158).

Christians do not deny Jesus’ ascension, but believe it followed his crucifixion. They teach that he rose from the dead and then was raised to God, and they see this as his greatest miracle and proof of divinity. Jesus’ alleged crucifixion is probably the biggest issue of contention between Christians and Muslims. The crucifixion has also been the source of enmity between Christians and Jews because Jesus was allegedly put to death on the behest of the Jewish elders.

The key Christian doctrine is that by sacrificing His own son, God redeemed the world of sin. According to the old testament, crucifixion was a humiliating death reserved for those who were cursed.

In his letter to the Galatians Paul explains that everybody is cursed under the law of God, because no-one can fully keep it, but that by taking this curse upon himself Jesus has freed the world from the curse of the law Phillipians 2:6

Phillipians 2:6 "Have this mind among yourselves, which you have in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Christians, therefore, replace the requirement of keeping the law with the need to love Jesus who sacrificed himself for them.

This is, of course, in contradiction to Jesus’ own teaching mentioned earlier that he had not come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it.

There are other contradictions in this doctrine. The idea that God punished His innocent son to free mankind from inherited sin violates the rule set out in Deuteronomy 24.16: “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers, every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” The same is expressed in the Qur’an:

“No soul shall bear another’s burden.” (Qur’an chapter 6, verse 164).

In trying to show that God knows no limits in His attempt to forgive and redeem mankind, Christian theologians have Him break His own laws and punish the innocent in order to save the guilty.

A truly loving God does not need this kind of inequity in order to be forgiving.

From the Muslim point of view, the crucifixion never took place:

“…they killed him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them; and those who disagree concerning it are in doubt of it; they have no knowledge of it except pursuit of a conjecture; they killed him not for certain.” (Qur’an chapter 4, verse 157).

Some commentators explain the phrase “but it appeared so to them” as meaning that some other person, maybe Judas who had betrayed him, was put on the cross instead in a case of mistaken identity.

According to the teachings of Islam, Jesus did not die and then rise again from the dead. He was saved the humiliating death of crucifixion by God Who made him ascend to Himself. He remains in the presence of God until the time when he will have to complete his task: to return as the Messiah or Christ near the end of time.

A Muslim Portrayal of Jesus: “For they killed him not”: Jesus’ ascent to heaven

Peace be upon you

SOURCE It is from a forum and posting of this quote does not reflect endorsement of that forum, but this quote explains better, than I could have said it myself.

**aadil77** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is alive, it was made to look like he had died on the cross:

4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

**YusufNoor** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.

there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for ANYTHING that happened during the Prophet-hood of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.

there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for the martyrdom of ANY of the Sahabah of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.

the EARLIEST written Gospel, [the one mislabeled the Gospel according to] Mark, DOES NOT contain ANY eyewitness accounts of a "risen Jesus." it's not until AFTER the time of what would have been the "martrydom of the disciples" that Gospel accounts appear claiming the falsehoods that you believe. your beliefs are based upon NEW religion that Paul preached AFTER he claimed that "his" testimony of Jesus was superior than that witnessed by Jesus' own disciples.

we see evidence of the TRUE teachings of the one you call Jesus here:

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard the Sadducees arguing. He noticed that Jesus had given the Sadducees a good answer. So he asked him, "Which is the most important of all the commandments?"

29 Jesus answered, "Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your mind and with all your strength.'—(Deuteronomy 6:4,5) 31 And here is the second one. 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'—(Leviticus 19:18) There is no commandment more important than these."

32 "You have spoken well, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one. There is no other God but him. 33 To love God with all your heart and mind and strength is very important. So is loving your neighbor as you love yourself. These things are more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 Jesus saw that the man had answered wisely. He said to him, "You are not far from God's kingdom.

as Muslims, we are in agreement with those statements.

as for the other pagan myths you believe, we are NOT in agreement. we see no valid "evidence" for them.

peace

**Perseveranze** · 02-05-2011

Peace,

Since the questions already answered... The truth is the truth.

59359 430200962251 348662852251 5263598 4006576 n - How Do Mulsims Resolve the Eyewitness Testimony of the Disciples?

59359 430200962251 348662852251 5263598 4006576 n - How Do Mulsims Resolve the Eyewitness Testimony of the Disciples?

**noselfwilling** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by aadil77

Jesus (peace be upon him) is alive, it was made to look like he had died on the cross:

4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and then John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.

**Aprender** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and then John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.

Interesting point here but even in the words of John the Baptist that you posted doesn't necessarily say that Jesus (pbuh) was God but only to believe in him. It seems to me like a forced interpretation with those brackets added in. Why the modification? I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm not agreeing with you either.

**MustafaMc** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

I know Muslims claim Jesus never went to the cross, but of the 45 sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death no one claims that Jesus didn't die the cross

Actually, in "Lost Christianities" Bart Ehrman quotes Irenaeus in his book "Against Heresies" as refuting the notion that Basilides claimed Jesus transformed himself to look like Simon of Cyrene and vice versa such that the 'wrong man' was crucified. This is also supported in the "Second Treatise of the Great Seth", one of the Gnostic manuscripts found at Nag Hammadi, "another one was lifted up on the cross on his shoulder, who was Simon. Another was the one on whom they put the crown of thorns."

How can you come along six centuries later and say the complete opposite of what has been recorded historically?

Because we accept what the Quran says is true. Including the ascension of Jesus to be with God in 3:55 (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me you will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ.

**aadil77** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and then John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.

Like I said, your accounts confirm that obiously someone did die on the cross, but it was not Jesus, it was someone who was made to look like Jesus:

Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."
—Al-Nasa'i, Al-Kubra, 6:489

**noselfwilling** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by YusufNoor

there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for ANYTHING that happened during the Prophet-hood of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.

John the Baptist was pointing to Jesus, "Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him [Jesus]" (John 3.28). John the Apostle records this in his gospel account. John is the disciple whom Jesus loved most.

The Bible is full of contemporaneous accounts of the life of Jesus.

there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for the martyrdom of ANY of the Sahabah of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.

John the Apostle places himself at the cross when Jesus died with the women specifically mentioned by name, including Jesus' mother. All the books of the Bible were written down right when their events occurred or shortly thereafter. Nobody in antiquity is so well documented.

the EARLIEST written Gospel, [the one mislabeled the Gospel according to] Mark, DOES NOT contain ANY eyewitness accounts of a "risen Jesus." it's not until AFTER the time of what would have been the "martrydom of the disciples" that Gospel accounts appear claiming the falsehoods that you believe. your beliefs are based upon NEW religion that Paul preached AFTER he claimed that "his" testimony of Jesus was superior than that witnessed by Jesus' own disciples.

We don't know which of the 4 gospels came first, but we do know they were all written down nearly right when the events occurred. Mark writes about the death of Jesus on the cross and said Jesus was resurrected and where to go so see Him. Mark 16 gives some resurrection appearances. This was a retrieved chapter that apparently was lost. Since all the disciples died around 65 AD, all the books of the NT were written before then except for Revelation, John the Apostle wrote around 95 AD. Acts written by Luke recounts many of the works and testimony of Paul which do not differ with the experiences of the Apostles. Whether you have the gospels only or Paul's writings only or Peter's writings only or John's writing only, the eyewitness testimony and message is the same in setting up the first churches. Paul's role was to travel to the Gentiles to set up the churches outside of Judea to spread the gospel of salvation to the world.

we see evidence of the TRUE teachings of the one you call Jesus here:

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard the Sadducees arguing. He noticed that Jesus had given the Sadducees a good answer. So he asked him, "Which is the most important of all the commandments?"

29 Jesus answered, "Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your mind and with all your strength.'—(Deuteronomy 6:4,5) 31 And here is the second one. 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'—(Leviticus 19:18) There is no commandment more important than these."

32 "You have spoken well, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one. There is no other God but him. 33 To love God with all your heart and mind and strength is very important. So is loving your neighbor as you love yourself. These things are more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 Jesus saw that the man had answered wisely. He said to him, "You are not far from God's kingdom.

Jesus was speaking of God the Father, not God the Son, as He showed perfect obedience unto the Father as only God the Son could do. Jesus is God the Son because He forgave sins, which only God can do, and when the scribes wanted to kill Jesus for being the Forgiver of sins, they accused him of claiming to be God, "who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2.7). Jesus responded, "And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, "Why do you question thus in your hearts?" (v.8). Now "ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy)" (v.10) when he healed him.

as Muslims, we are in agreement with those statements.

Nonetheless wrong.

as for the other pagan myths you believe, we are NOT in agreement. we see no valid "evidence" for them.

peace

It is a myth that Jesus didn't die on the cross. An old wives tale without evidence or support overturn the death that Jesus endured on the cross for the sins of the world.

as Muslims, we are in agreement with those statements.

as for the other pagan myths you believe, we are NOT in agreement. we see no valid "evidence" for them.

peace[/QUOTE]

**noselfwilling** · 02-05-2011

Originally Posted by Aprender

Interesting point here but even in the words of John the Baptist that you posted doesn't necessarily say that Jesus (pbuh) was God but only to believe in him. It seems to me like a forced interpretation with those brackets added in. Why the modification? I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm not agreeing with you either.

I think John is placing Jesus as God above all other men that ever lived or ever will live. To be that unique one must be God. Any other interpretation is forced. Why modify how John felt? If Jesus were just a man, John the Baptist would be sinning by exalting Jesus to such a high level that only God's shoes could fill.

**aadil77** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

I think John is placing Jesus as God above all other men that ever lived or ever will live. To be that unique one must be God. Any other interpretation is forced. Why modify how John felt? If Jesus were just a man, John the Baptist would be sinning by exalting Jesus to such a high level that only God's shoes could fill.

Prophets are often exhalted high above men, because they have a high status as messengers of God, but this does not make them God Himself, or anything like even close to being God.

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Actually, in "Lost Christianities" Bart Ehrman quotes Irenaeus in his book "Against Heresies" as refuting the notion that Basilides claimed Jesus transformed himself to look like Simon of Cyrene and vice versa such that the 'wrong man' was crucified. This is also supported in the "Second Treatise of the Great Seth", one of the Gnostic manuscripts found at Nag Hammadi, "another one was lifted up on the cross on his shoulder, who was Simon. Another was the one on whom they put the crown of thorns."Because we accept what the Quran says is true. Including the ascension of Jesus to be with God in 3:55 (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me you will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ.

Since Irenaeus refutes someone taking Jesus' place, then that goes against what Muslims believe. And any gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant since they have no impact on the primary sources of the New Testaement and early church fathers.

Since there is no evidence to claim Jesus die on the cross, then He most certainly died on the cross. You're in doubt about Jesus not having died on the cross.

**Woodrow** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and then John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.

For 3 centuries the early Christians also followed other books such as the Gospels of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas. But since these differed from the teachings of Paul and did not acknowledge Jesus(as) died on the cross they were cast out as being gnostic by the council of Nicea. You ever think of the possibility that the true gospels were cast out and the false ones kept? Keep in mind the Bible you have today came as a result of the choosing of books by the Popes between the year s 300 - 800. You are following the teachings of Catholicism, not the word of God(swt).

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Since there is no evidence to claim Jesus die on the cross.

Correction. There is no evidence Jesus DIDN'T die on the cross since the primary sources only testify to Jesus dying on the cross.

Men of God are often killed as martyrs.

If the disciples were deceived God would be a liar, but God is no liar. And there is no purpose for God deceiving the disciples. Satan would though.

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by aadil77

Like I said, your accounts confirm that obiously someone did die on the cross, but it was not Jesus, it was someone who was made to look like Jesus:

Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."
—Al-Nasa'i, Al-Kubra, 6:489

The record of the New Testament is that Jesus died on the cross and to confirm this even further the disciples reported they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. Since Jesus wouldn't lie to them, nor did they lie, then it is true, they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

**MustafaMc** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Since Irenaeus refutes someone taking Jesus' place, then that goes against what Muslims believe. And any gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant since they have no impact on the primary sources of the New Testaement and early church fathers.

The point is that Basilides had written that Jesus did not die. Are not the Nag Hammadi manuscripts older than any surviving canonical gospel text?

Since there is no evidence to claim Jesus die on the cross, then He most certainly died on the cross. You're in doubt about Jesus not having died on the cross.

No, I have no doubt that he did not die, but the question remains for you, "Where does your salvation stand if he did not die on the cross?"

**aadil77** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Correction. There is no evidence Jesus DIDN'T die on the cross since the primary sources only testify to Jesus dying on the cross.

Men of God are often killed as martyrs.

If the disciples were deceived God would be a liar, but God is no liar. And there is no purpose for God deceiving the disciples. Satan would though.

Exactly, They were not decieved, they knew about it, read the my post above.

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by aadil77

Prophets are often exhalted high above men, because they have a high status as messengers of God, but this does not make them God Himself, or anything like even close to being God.

Prophets are never exalted above all men that ever lived or eve will live as Jesus was, is, and always will be. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, created all things, and no man can come to the Father but by Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved than Jesus.