What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

This last choice you describe is also how I understand the meaning

Do I understand you correctly that you agree with the "third alternative is that Allah (swt) miraculously created an embryo in Mary's uterus that subsequently went through normal embryogenesis resulting in Jesus' natural birth as a human"? If so, do you also agree with the Quran 3:59, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is." For Allah (swt) to have created Jesus it must mean that he did not exist prior to being created. At what point did Jesus become divine?

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Do I understand you correctly that you agree with the "third alternative is that Allah (swt) miraculously created an embryo in Mary's uterus that subsequently went through normal embryogenesis resulting in Jesus' natural birth as a human"?

I do believe that God miraculously created an embryo in Mary's uterus and that this embryo matured just as every human embryo matures and when born was named Jesus.

If so, do you also agree with the Quran 3:59, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is."

I don't know that God spoke at all in the creating of the embryo in question. The Qur'an reports this, the Bible does not. Considering that I accept the Bible as my authority, my knowledge of this particular embryo's creation is that I cannot say one way or another about any declaration such as "Be!" But I will certainly not exclude it from the realm of possibility, as it does parallel how God spoke the world into being.

For Allah (swt) to have created Jesus it must mean that he did not exist prior to being created. At what point did Jesus become divine?

Now, this is a conclusion that your reach from your interpretation of the Qur'an. It is not something that (at least in this passage) is specifically stated by the Qur'an. However, my reading/interpretation of the Bible leads me to a different conclusion. My understanding is that in Jesus God is with us (Matthew 1:23). My understanding is that in Jesus God becomes flesh and dwells with us (John 1:14). Logic does not say that a uncreated spiritual being who is all powerful and able to conform nature to do as he wills cannot embody created matter. Thus I affirm the creation of the embryo, and that is the beginning of the person we know as the man Jesus. But that point of creation is not the beginning of the God who from before all time and all creation has always existed as one triune being.

You ask at what point did Jesus become divine? Jesus didn't become divine. The divine became Jesus.

My understanding of Islam is that Muslims believe God places our human spirits (al-ruh) within the embryo, but that they are actually previously created in heaven. (I may need to be corrected on that point.) So, does that make each one of us pre-existent beings? Rumi says in his book, Masnavi, that the reason why a child cries the first moment after it is born on earth is because it realizes its exile from the higher place. Yet, Islam does not understand the human being to be an uncreated being, even though our spirits are.

This is where Islam and Christianity differ with regard to Jesus. Christianity teaches that the human body (embryo) is indeed created, but that embryo was the flesh in which dwells the pre-existant and eternal second person of the Trinity, God the Son. So it is that Jesus is born with two complete natures, a human nature and a divine nature, in his one body.

You might rightly ask how two natures can inhabit one being, the answer is I don't know. I only know that this is the conclusion I draw from my understanding of what the scriptures teach with regard to Jesus, that he is both fully human and fully divine at the same time. Likewise, I don't know how it is that God places our human spirits within our human bodies, but I do believe that he does this, completely aside from my own lack of understanding as to how he does so.

(Of course, another difference between Christians and Muslims is that Christians don't believe that our spirits are pre-existant and that only God is. So, our spirits are created along with the creation of our physical bodies. But that's a rabbit trail for another thread.)

So, to restate my answer to your above question in slightly different words that I hope are understood as still saying the same thing-- it was at the very moment when the divine became Jesus and the body (embryo) of Jesus was created in which the divine would dwell, only then did Jesus begin to exist, and the eternally existing God was from that point in time incarnated as Jesus.



I don't expect those answers to satisfy you in the sense of creating agreement. But I do hope it helps to comprehend better how it is that Christians understand the divine/human nature to co-exist in the person of Jesus.

Now, important though your questions are, and because I believe you asked them sincerely seeking to understand I wanted to answer. However, still I feel we have strayed far from the topic of this thread and have ventured into discussion that more appropriately belongs in a discussion of the Trinity. So, unless you have something specific to ask in order to clarify my initial statement related to agreeing with you regarding the creation of the embryo Jesus. Let's wrap up this part of our discussion. Any follow-up questions created by this post should probably be moved to another thread.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I feel we have strayed far from the topic of this thread and have ventured into discussion that more appropriately belongs in a discussion of the Trinity. So, unless you have something specific to ask in order to clarify my initial statement related to agreeing with you regarding the creation of the embryo Jesus. Let's wrap up this part of our discussion. Any follow-up questions created by this post should probably be moved to another thread.

I would like to pursue this train of discussion as you raise some interesting points. To that end, I have requested a new thread, "What is the nature of Jesus' (as) birth?"

format_quote Originally Posted by

My understanding of Islam is that Muslims believe God places our human spirits (al-ruh) within the embryo, but that they are actually previously created in heaven. (I may need to be corrected on that point.) So, does that make each one of us pre-existent beings? Rumi says in his book, Masnavi, that the reason why a child cries the first moment after it is born on earth is because it realizes its exile from the higher place. Yet, Islam does not understand the human being to be an uncreated being, even though our spirits are

You baffle me with the rest of your sentences.

But the underlined words caught my attention. Did you actually say that in Islam we believe that spirits are uncreated?

Is that one of you stealth, sly lies that you attribute to Islam?

(I'm, not surprised if it is the case)

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

But the underlined words caught my attention. Did you actually say that in Islam we believe that spirits are uncreated?

My understanding of what he said was that our souls existed before we were conceived and that the soul joined our bodies during pregnancy. I believe that he was implying that our souls are not created. Allah (subhana wa ta ala) knows best the nature of our souls.

format_quote Originally Posted by

My understanding of what he said was that our souls existed before we were conceived and that the soul joined our bodies during pregnancy. I believe that he was implying that our souls are not created. Allah (subhana wa ta ala) knows best the nature of our souls.

Even if the soul is not created in this world and it was pre-existed, they are still created, right?


But GS charged that muslims believe that soul is not created, even though everything in the qur'an and ahadeeth tell equivocally that everything is created but Allah SWT.
hence, my suspicion that he purposefully inserted that, in the middle of his usual long-winded sentences.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

Even if the soul is not created in this world and it was pre-existed, they are still created, right?

GraceSeeker actually brought forward something that I had previously thought about as well.

I remember the hadith about seeking intercession and it says of Adam, "So they will go to Adam and say to him. 'You are the father of mankind; Allah created you with His Own Hand, and breathed into you of His Spirit (meaning the spirit which he created for you); and ordered the angels to prostrate before you; so (please) intercede for us with your Lord." The part in parenthesis is an interpretation of the meaning and not part of the hadith. This also brings to mind the ayat 66:12 "And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient." and ayat 21:91 "And she who was chaste, therefore We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples."

Allah knows best the meaning of these hadith and ayat and the nature of our souls. However, my understanding is that the nature of Jesus is as the likeness of Adam. As for myself, I am a creature that was created by the Creator to worship Him.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I cannot say one way or another about any declaration such as "Be!" But I will certainly not exclude it from the realm of possibility, as it does parallel how God spoke the world into being.

In the Bible Jesus (alayhi salam) is referred as the "Word" John 1:1 as he is in the Quran 3:45 "(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)." I believe in the truth of the Quran and that Allah (subhana wa ta ala) has speech that is befitting of his Majesty.

Now, this is a conclusion that your reach from your interpretation of the Qur'an. It is not something that (at least in this passage) is specifically stated by the Qur'an.

No, it is from my understanding of the word "create" which is "to bring into existence". The Quran clearly states that Allah (swt) created (brought into existence) Jesus (as).

Logic does not say that a uncreated spiritual being who is all powerful and able to conform nature to do as he wills cannot embody created matter.

Perhaps, your logic allows for this, but mine does not. As I have stated previously I don't know the nature of the human soul, but I have trouble understanding that God can enter a human body and at the same time exist outside of that body and have a conversation with Himself. So also I don't see how He can sit at the right hand of Himself. Those things are illogical in anyone's book.

Thus I affirm the creation of the embryo, and that is the beginning of the person we know as the man Jesus. But that point of creation is not the beginning of the God who from before all time and all creation has always existed as one triune being.

You ask at what point did Jesus become divine? Jesus didn't become divine. The divine became Jesus.

Herein lies the difficulty of Christianity being able to explain how Jesus (as) is fully human and fully divine. This is another illogical doctrine.

My understanding of Islam is that Muslims believe God places our human spirits (al-ruh) within the embryo, but that they are actually previously created in heaven. (I may need to be corrected on that point.)

This is not different from what I believe, but again I am unclear as to the nature of the soul prior to our birth.

Yet, Islam does not understand the human being to be an uncreated being, even though our spirits are.

Well, above you said, "God places our human spirits (al-ruh) within the embryo, but that they are actually previously created in heaven" which denies that we believe the soul is not created. Perhaps, this is something that you believe and I misunderstood that you see it as what Islam teaches.

Christianity teaches that the human body (embryo) is indeed created, but that embryo was the flesh in which dwells the pre-existant and eternal second person of the Trinity, God the Son. So it is that Jesus is born with two complete natures, a human nature and a divine nature, in his one body.

I don't see how the spirit or soul of Jesus being existent prior to his birth is different from that of Adam.

You might rightly ask how two natures can inhabit one being, the answer is I don't know. I only know that this is the conclusion I draw from my understanding of what the scriptures teach with regard to Jesus, that he is both fully human and fully divine at the same time. Likewise, I don't know how it is that God places our human spirits within our human bodies, but I do believe that he does this, completely aside from my own lack of understanding as to how he does so.

You see a distinction between the first part of what you said and the last sentence. I see they are one and the same.

(Of course, another difference between Christians and Muslims is that Christians don't believe that our spirits are pre-existant and that only God is. So, our spirits are created along with the creation of our physical bodies. But that's a rabbit trail for another thread.)

This explains the distinction I made above.

So, to restate my answer to your above question in slightly different words that I hope are understood as still saying the same thing-- it was at the very moment when the divine became Jesus and the body (embryo) of Jesus was created in which the divine would dwell, only then did Jesus begin to exist, and the eternally existing God was from that point in time incarnated as Jesus.

In what form does Jesus now exist relative to the Father?

I don't expect those answers to satisfy you in the sense of creating agreement. But I do hope it helps to comprehend better how it is that Christians understand the divine/human nature to co-exist in the person of Jesus.

Your explanation was actually quite helpful to my understanding and I see more agreement with what you wrote than usual.

I view the virgin birth miracle as as a miracle like Jesus spoke in the cradle as a baby or infant am I right that Jesus was the only Prophet who spoke in the cradle as a infant the virgin birth and speaking in the cradle and the other miracles are not proofs of Jesus being God.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Your explanation was actually quite helpful to my understanding and I see more agreement with what you wrote than usual.

I'm glad for both. I suspect that there are many more things on which we are, if not in total agreement, more aligned than not by virtue of having complimentary understandings. Unfortunately (at least in my opinion) far too many of the threads in "Comparative Religion" seem to focus on contrasting our differences rather than comparing our similiarities.

In what form does Jesus now exist relative to the Father?

This really is, in my opinion, one of the big overlooked questions of Christian theology. I'll not be able to do it justice here, but out of respect for your openness try to at least float a few ideas.</p>

It is good that you asked the question, "In what form does Jesus now exist relative to the Father?" That is quite a different question than if you had asked the question "relative to God?" for that would have muddied the waters from the start. And the distinction between the two questions shows that from a Christian perspective we are talking about the nature of the Trinity.

Not sure if this is what you are getting at (so let me know if I misunderstand), but the question might also have been asked, "Is Jesus still in his physical body at present?"

And not trying to be evasive, but I don't know. I can only speculate. So, what follows is just that, the result of me processing thoughts and not final conclusions that I would necessarily reaffirm even a few days from now.

Clearly the Christian scriptures speak of Jesus ascending to heaven in bodily form, of him sitting on a throne and reigning from there, and of his glorious return. All of these have led many Christians to have a picture in their mind of some sort of throne room in heaven where Jesus presently sits in discrete bodily form just as he occupied here on earth....many, but not all.

There is another group that views this language and even the witnessed and prophecied events themselves as being metaphorical. Yes, the disciples may have seen Jesus rise into heaven, "taken up before their very eyes." But that doesn't mean that Jesus is "up there" any more than heaven itself is.

Heaven, after all, so this group would argue (and in my mind convincingly so) isn't a physical realm that one could get into their spaceship and with enough fuel fly to. Heaven is where God reigns, it is the spiritual realm where all that occurs is in accordance with his will. Our concrete and finite minds have trouble conceiving of such abstractions and so we create images that we are familiar with to add shape and form to our image of heaven. But heaven is not so much about these projections of material things as it is about the projection of the will of God.

And if this is true of heaven, where Christ is, then would it not be true of Christ himself?

Now, I just caught myself having made a change from answering your question about Jesus, to talking about Christ. I didn't make that change intentionally, but unconsciously, and yet it too speaks to your question more than those who prefer short and simplistic answers might realize.

Those gospel passages that have Jesus himself speak of this heavenly reign are:

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

Jesus replied, “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64)

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

You will note that the prophecy is with regard to "the Son of Man" and alludes to a scene from Daniel:

Daniel 7:
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Even before the advent of Christianity, the Jews understood this passage to be a Messianic prophecy. And I believe that the way Jesus uses this image from Daniel that he is applying the prophecy to himself. But is it a literal and historical event that is to unfold? Given that the image comes from Daniel's dream, and the interpreation of that dream, provided in the extended passage itself, shows that the images of the beasts are to be taken not as literal beasts, but more as representative of other powers, it seems appropriate to understand this image of the son of man the same way. If so, then it is saying that all of this "authority, glory and sovereign power", and even being worshipped by "peoples of every language" is due him, and the image of him sitting at a literal and physical throne is just another way, a symbolic way of saying this.

Yet, all of that said, I still can't exclude it from the realm of possibility. After all, I also believe that the spiritual realm is every bit as real as the physical realm. I don't think that references to spiritual entities are just allusions to an abstract idea, but to real beings. And though they aren't concrete physical beings, they are nonetheless still very much real. But do these spiritual beings have form and substance? None that my physical senses are able to discern. Yet since they are real, perhaps if I had better developed spiritual senses I might actually perceive form and substance in the spritiual world the same way that I do in the physical world?

We know that when Jesus was transfigured before the disciples they saw him in a way that they had never seen him before. We know that in his vision of the end times, John describes Jesus in a way that resembles a human being, but is unlike any human I have ever seen:

Revelation 1:
13and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

But, this too is yet another vision. So, what does all of this mean? It leads me inconclusive as to the form in which Jesus is found today.

If one were to read the writings of George Elerick you would see that he conceives of the second coming of Christ (Jesus' return if you will) as already taking place whenever followers of Jesus live out their faith in relationships with others in ways which exhibit the presence of the kingdom of God (and hence his will being done) in the world today. To some Jesus is present wherever and in whatever form his people are present as "the body of Christ" and there is no other presence to look for or anticipate. At the other end are those who think that Jesus is simply hanging out in heaven listening to harp music, perhaps playing a game of checkers with the Father in the throne room. Personally, I find both of those views too extreme and too limiting. And I'm not even sure that those views are on some sort of continuim, but if they are I would definitely be inbetween.

Until then, as to Jesus' specfic form right now, I don't know. Let me think on this another day, and I'm sure I'll have some more thoughts, though I don't promise them to be any more helpful than what I've already shared.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I'm glad for both. I suspect that there are many more things on which we are, if not in total agreement, more aligned than not by virtue of having complimentary understandings.

Yes, it seems there is some agreement at least in understanding to other's beliefs. Do you care to comment on what I wrote concerning the soul?

It is good that you asked the question, "In what form does Jesus now exist relative to the Father?" That is quite a different question than if you had asked the question "relative to God?" for that would have muddied the waters from the start. And the distinction between the two questions shows that from a Christian perspective we are talking about the nature of the Trinity.

...

But, this too is yet another vision. So, what does all of this mean? It leads me inconclusive as to the form in which Jesus is found today.

...

To some Jesus is present wherever and in whatever form his people are present as "the body of Christ" and there is no other presence to look for or anticipate. At the other end are those who think that Jesus is simply hanging out in heaven listening to harp music, perhaps playing a game of checkers with the Father in the throne room. Personally, I find both of those views too extreme and too limiting. And I'm not even sure that those views are on some sort of continuim, but if they are I would definitely be inbetween.

This gets at the gist of my question. In your first example in blue font, Jesus (as) now exists in a figurative sense as embodied by the Church and in the second example, in teal font, he exists in a literal sense as a being quite distinct from the Father. My point is that if Jesus (or Christ) and the Father are both the same One God then how can one play checkers with the other or be 'the Church' which again is distinct from the Father? I am confused about how this can ultimately all tie in with the concept of the Unity of God.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Do you care to comment on what I wrote concerning the soul?

Do you refer to your comment in post #7, #9, or somewhere else? Perhaps you could do me the favor of re-highlighting that portion which you would like me to comment on. Thanks.

My point is that if Jesus (or Christ) and the Father are both the same One God then how can one play checkers with the other or be 'the Church' which again is distinct from the Father? I am confused about how this can ultimately all tie in with the concept of the Unity of God.

I don't blame you for being confused. One of my points is that when Christians (or others) use such an image, that it doesn't actually very well convey the nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son that I understand is being expressed in scripture.

@MustafaMc

It is my opinion that our use of language sometimes distorts our capacity to understand. When we think of "virgin birth" of Prophet Jesus(pbuh), we describe it as a miracle. However, we rarely contemplate the big bang as a miracle. Yet, God has a hand in the creation of both the birth of the universe and the birth of humans. Just because some things work according to principles/law of science/nature and others don't ---does not mean that God does not have a hand in those that work according to principles/law. The very principles/laws of nature/science are made by God and work according to his will.

soul---my understanding may be inadequate, but from what I know, the Quran mentions "nafs" (Judaism=nefesh, Indian=atman) this is the self, or consciousness. Apart from soul, there is also mention of spirit or "ruh" (Judaism=ruach, Chineese=Qi,Chi, Indian=Prana)

(note---some things maybe different between the Quran and other religions)

The Quran mentions 3 levels of "nafs"
nafs ammara (Judaism=Yetzer hara)
nafs lawwama (Judaism=Yetzer hatov)
nafs mutmainna (Judaism=Neshama)

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Do you refer to your comment in post #7, #9, or somewhere else? Perhaps you could do me the favor of re-highlighting that portion which you would like me to comment on. Thanks.

Yes, my posts #7 and #9 are what I was referring to. In the first case, I was wondering if what I wrote was a reflection of what you were trying to say. The second post gave 2 examples of an interpretation of what I said in post #7. Specifically, the hadith and the ayat used similar language in the creation of Adam and of Jesus (pbut). If both of these are accurate what is the distinction between Adam and Jesus regarding their natures? Brother Naidamar made a point about even if our souls were pre-existent to our births that they were still not created because the only thing not created is God. I am interested in hearing you perspective.

I don't blame you for being confused. One of my points is that when Christians (or others) use such an image, that it doesn't actually very well convey the nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son that I understand is being expressed in scripture.

The point is that I can see the distinction between the Son and the Father, but I fail to see the unity of the two. How can one pray to the other or one sit on the right hand of the other and yet both be One God?

format_quote Originally Posted by siam

@MustafaMc

It is my opinion that our use of language sometimes distorts our capacity to understand. When we think of "virgin birth" of Prophet Jesus(pbuh), we describe it as a miracle. However, we rarely contemplate the big bang as a miracle. Yet, God has a hand in the creation of both the birth of the universe and the birth of humans. Just because some things work according to principles/law of science/nature and others don't ---does not mean that God does not have a hand in those that work according to principles/law. The very principles/laws of nature/science are made by God and work according to his will.

I agree that we often don't appreciate the miraculous nature of the creation. I am a scientist and knowledgeable about genetics. I am utterly amazed at how the union of sets of chromosomes in a sperm and an egg can result in a single human being. All I can say is, "Subhan'Allah".

soul---my understanding may be inadequate, but from what I know, the Quran mentions "nafs" this is the self, or consciousness. Apart from soul, there is also mention of spirit or "ruh"

I think that I can relate to the 'nafs' which I understand from what you wrote to be our soul which is what makes us unique. Perhaps it is the 'ruh' that I am confused about. Are we comprised of body, soul and spirit?

Are we comprised of body, soul and spirit? ----my understanding, from reading the Quran, is Yes. However, there are times in Islamic philosophical discourse that some scholars use "nafs" and "ruh" interchangeably.

I will try to find the Quranic verses if you are interested---however, roughly, this is what I understand......

The "nafs"(soul) is our self/consiousness. Therefore it is part of our body only when we are conscious and leaves when we are not. The ruh on the other hand, (understood as "the force that animates) remains with us until the death of the physical body. At the time of death our "nafs" experiences the death of the physical body.

(I am most familiar with the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran)

format_quote Originally Posted by siam

I will try to find the Quranic verses if you are interested---however, roughly, this is what I understand......

Yes, I would like to see evidences if possible. I don't know if you know about this search engine, but it helps me find things on my mind. http://www.searchtruth.com/

The "nafs"(soul) is our self/consiousness. Therefore it is part of our body only when we are conscious and leaves when we are not. The ruh on the other hand, (understood as "the force that animates) remains with us until the death of the physical body. At the time of death our "nafs" experiences the death of the physical body.

Would you also say that animals don't have souls?

format_quote Originally Posted by siam

Are we comprised of body, soul and spirit? ----my understanding, from reading the Quran, is Yes. However, there are times in Islamic philosophical discourse that some scholars use "nafs" and "ruh" interchangeably.

I will try to find the Quranic verses if you are interested---however, roughly, this is what I understand......

The "nafs"(soul) is our self/consiousness. Therefore it is part of our body only when we are conscious and leaves when we are not. The ruh on the other hand, (understood as "the force that animates) remains with us until the death of the physical body. At the time of death our "nafs" experiences the death of the physical body.

(I am most familiar with the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran)

Is Surah 29:57 relevant here? "Every soul (nafs) shall have a taste of death:"

The soul dies when the body dies. And the spirit, the force that animates the body, does not continue conscious existence after death. Surah 2:259 contains an account of someone who was dead for 100 years and then came back to life. For all of that 100 years the resurrected man had been conscious of nothing and so when he returned to life he thought that only a short time had passed.