Is the bible the word of God
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Ramadhan
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:wa:
The short answer is no.
The bible as we know it today is a collection of books (the word "bible" came from latin "biblia" or books), and depending on which bibles you are talking about, they are different. For example, protestant bible contains 66 books and catholic bible contains 73 books, while ethiopian orthodox bible contain 81 books and eastern orthodox bible has 84 books.
You really have to know which bible you are going to discuss.
Now, those bibles consist of old testament and new testament. Old testament contains torah, prophets and writings. These were supposedly written by various prophets, rabbis, scribes, and the oldest extant manuscripts were greek translation from the fourth century.
New testament contains four canonical gospels - Luke, Matthew, Mark, John (accounts of sayings and actions of Jesus pbuh, similar to non-authenticated ahadeeth), acts of apostles, letters of paul, other letters, and book of revelation.
The four canonical gospels only made it into bible late second century or early third century. There were hundreds of other gospels that were hunted down and destroyed by roman christians which made it clear that jesus (pbuh) was messenger of God.
Letters of paul (or saul of Tarsus) dominate the NT, while sayings and actions of Jesus (pbuh) only account for as much as 18% of the NT. Letters of paul was written by paul who had never met jesus pbuh in his life and was actually an enemy of Jesus pbuh during Jesus time, but claimed to have met him in either dreams or stupor.
The current bibles took hundred of years to be developed and only made it as definitive list by council of trent in 1546.
Notwithstanding those other hundreds gospels and gnostic oral tradition that didn't make it into bible, current bible is very problematic on its own.
For example, In the 17th century Thomas Hobbes collected the current evidence to conclude outright that Moses could not have written the bulk of the Torah. Shortly afterwards the philosopher Baruch Spinoza published a unified critical analysis, arguing that the problematic passages were not isolated cases that could be explained away one by one, but pervasive throughout the five books, concluding that it was "clearer than the sun at noon that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses . . ."
Another example: the infamous passage that christians love to cite to tolerate sinners, the pericope adulterae (John 7:53 - 8:11) was never found in the oldest bible manuscripts (codex sinaiticus, vaticanus, alexandrinus) and was only written into vulgate bible. Most scholars now agree that it was never part of original text of john's gospels.
Right now, most christians do not even believe bible is the word of god, so who are we to argue with them? ;D
Another thing to remember, if christians believe bible is the word of god, that means the christian god either:
1. makes errors
2. lies
3. loves to confuse human beings
4. does not really know who he is or his own creation
5. into eroticism and scatology
as there are literally thousands of errors both factual and non, contradictions, etc in the bible.
The short answer is no.
The bible as we know it today is a collection of books (the word "bible" came from latin "biblia" or books), and depending on which bibles you are talking about, they are different. For example, protestant bible contains 66 books and catholic bible contains 73 books, while ethiopian orthodox bible contain 81 books and eastern orthodox bible has 84 books.
You really have to know which bible you are going to discuss.
Now, those bibles consist of old testament and new testament. Old testament contains torah, prophets and writings. These were supposedly written by various prophets, rabbis, scribes, and the oldest extant manuscripts were greek translation from the fourth century.
New testament contains four canonical gospels - Luke, Matthew, Mark, John (accounts of sayings and actions of Jesus pbuh, similar to non-authenticated ahadeeth), acts of apostles, letters of paul, other letters, and book of revelation.
The four canonical gospels only made it into bible late second century or early third century. There were hundreds of other gospels that were hunted down and destroyed by roman christians which made it clear that jesus (pbuh) was messenger of God.
Letters of paul (or saul of Tarsus) dominate the NT, while sayings and actions of Jesus (pbuh) only account for as much as 18% of the NT. Letters of paul was written by paul who had never met jesus pbuh in his life and was actually an enemy of Jesus pbuh during Jesus time, but claimed to have met him in either dreams or stupor.
The current bibles took hundred of years to be developed and only made it as definitive list by council of trent in 1546.
Notwithstanding those other hundreds gospels and gnostic oral tradition that didn't make it into bible, current bible is very problematic on its own.
For example, In the 17th century Thomas Hobbes collected the current evidence to conclude outright that Moses could not have written the bulk of the Torah. Shortly afterwards the philosopher Baruch Spinoza published a unified critical analysis, arguing that the problematic passages were not isolated cases that could be explained away one by one, but pervasive throughout the five books, concluding that it was "clearer than the sun at noon that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses . . ."
Another example: the infamous passage that christians love to cite to tolerate sinners, the pericope adulterae (John 7:53 - 8:11) was never found in the oldest bible manuscripts (codex sinaiticus, vaticanus, alexandrinus) and was only written into vulgate bible. Most scholars now agree that it was never part of original text of john's gospels.
Right now, most christians do not even believe bible is the word of god, so who are we to argue with them? ;D
Another thing to remember, if christians believe bible is the word of god, that means the christian god either:
1. makes errors
2. lies
3. loves to confuse human beings
4. does not really know who he is or his own creation
5. into eroticism and scatology
as there are literally thousands of errors both factual and non, contradictions, etc in the bible.
Abz2000
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Yet we must bear in mind that there is still information and prophecy remaining despite the continuous edits, which is why the prophet (pbuh) advised us to neither believe or disbelieve the unconfirmed things in the edited previous scriptures as we may disbelieve something true and accept something edited.
But when something stares you in the face and is obvious, you must use your intellect to decide if it is likely from man or God
eg:
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond,
to receive a mark in their right hand,
or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell,
save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast,
or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 13
Would have taken a stretch of the imagination to just make up 2000 years ago,
Especially considering there was no digital currency, credit cards or even electricity.
According to research released today by the Institute for Grocery Distribution (IGD), a retail think-tank, almost one in ten teenagers and one in twenty adults are willing to have a microchip implanted to pay shop bills and help to prevent card or identity fraud and muggings.
A quick scan of the arm would connect immediately to bank details and payments could be made swiftly. Such microchips are already used in cats, dogs and horses. They are used in cattle and sheep so that consumers can trace their food from farm to plate and are also being used to help to combat drugs counterfeiting.
But now the retail industry is looking at body chips among a range of biometric payment methods, including fingerprint and iris recognition. So far the only example of a human body chip being used is at the VIP Baja Beach Club in Barcelona, where people wear bikinis and shorts and there is nowhere to carry wallets and purses.
BT's 'Soul Catcher 2025' Implants
A recent report has revealed that scientists working for British Telecom are currently developing a new microchip that will be ready for use in the year 2025. The microchips future-tech design will mean that, when implanted in the skull just behind the eye, it will be able to record a person's every thought, experience and sensation. Hence its name: Soul Catcher 2025.
"This is the end of death," Dr Chris Winter of British Telecom's Artificial life team claimed. He went on to explain that the implant will enable scientists to record other people's lives and play back their experiences on a computer. "By combining this information with a record of a person's genes," Dr Winter said, "we could recreate a person physically, emotionally and spiritually."
Me, I acknowledge openly what I can confirm to be the truth and show them the contradictions to prove that there are obvious edits, by asking them if they think God made the mistake - or man.
If they still say it's unedited - disregarding the facts shown, I ask them: which version, since no two manuscripts are identical. But I always try to be extremely respectful and never allow it to get heated, if they get over-excited, I just discuss similarities in order to make them consider.
Argue too much, people get defensive and close up like a clamshell.
And I try to talk on a plain level with no bias, but find it difficult when they try to use theology which doesn't make any sense in order to argue with reason.
That's where you know to tone it down since they think you're attacking them.
I try to bear in mind that my job is not to beat them in a debate - which is not too difficult- but to try and bring them the guidance, also bearing in mind that it is Almighty God who guides whom he will, it is not something I have to sell, but something I have to offer.
But when something stares you in the face and is obvious, you must use your intellect to decide if it is likely from man or God
eg:
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond,
to receive a mark in their right hand,
or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell,
save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast,
or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 13
Would have taken a stretch of the imagination to just make up 2000 years ago,
Especially considering there was no digital currency, credit cards or even electricity.
According to research released today by the Institute for Grocery Distribution (IGD), a retail think-tank, almost one in ten teenagers and one in twenty adults are willing to have a microchip implanted to pay shop bills and help to prevent card or identity fraud and muggings.
A quick scan of the arm would connect immediately to bank details and payments could be made swiftly. Such microchips are already used in cats, dogs and horses. They are used in cattle and sheep so that consumers can trace their food from farm to plate and are also being used to help to combat drugs counterfeiting.
But now the retail industry is looking at body chips among a range of biometric payment methods, including fingerprint and iris recognition. So far the only example of a human body chip being used is at the VIP Baja Beach Club in Barcelona, where people wear bikinis and shorts and there is nowhere to carry wallets and purses.
BT's 'Soul Catcher 2025' Implants
A recent report has revealed that scientists working for British Telecom are currently developing a new microchip that will be ready for use in the year 2025. The microchips future-tech design will mean that, when implanted in the skull just behind the eye, it will be able to record a person's every thought, experience and sensation. Hence its name: Soul Catcher 2025.
"This is the end of death," Dr Chris Winter of British Telecom's Artificial life team claimed. He went on to explain that the implant will enable scientists to record other people's lives and play back their experiences on a computer. "By combining this information with a record of a person's genes," Dr Winter said, "we could recreate a person physically, emotionally and spiritually."
Me, I acknowledge openly what I can confirm to be the truth and show them the contradictions to prove that there are obvious edits, by asking them if they think God made the mistake - or man.
If they still say it's unedited - disregarding the facts shown, I ask them: which version, since no two manuscripts are identical. But I always try to be extremely respectful and never allow it to get heated, if they get over-excited, I just discuss similarities in order to make them consider.
Argue too much, people get defensive and close up like a clamshell.
And I try to talk on a plain level with no bias, but find it difficult when they try to use theology which doesn't make any sense in order to argue with reason.
That's where you know to tone it down since they think you're attacking them.
I try to bear in mind that my job is not to beat them in a debate - which is not too difficult- but to try and bring them the guidance, also bearing in mind that it is Almighty God who guides whom he will, it is not something I have to sell, but something I have to offer.
Last edited:
Salam Alaikkum, may Allah reward you big for doing this.Amen
As Muslims we know that Bible is not pure words of our Creator.
Bible itself means collection of BOOKS.
However to avoid conflicts and rejections, we should not say it straight words not to hurt our Brothers&Sisters in Humanity, you can bring it in a way that we seriously follow many things mentioned in the Bible, like Circumsition, Fasting, prostating, greeting of peace, not eating pork and washing before praying. Remembering the Bible verse is good for their reference, a sincere Christians would check what you said when they reach home and inshallah it will open the doors for them if they are really looking for truth.
We should not separate the Bible from Quran instead I feel we should bring it in a way that Quran is extension of God's previous revelations to all the Prophets (peace be upon them all). Later on inshallah when they accept ISLAM, they will appreciate you much and they can tell within themselves that YES BIBLE IS NOT WORDS of GOD.
As Muslims we know that Bible is not pure words of our Creator.
Bible itself means collection of BOOKS.
However to avoid conflicts and rejections, we should not say it straight words not to hurt our Brothers&Sisters in Humanity, you can bring it in a way that we seriously follow many things mentioned in the Bible, like Circumsition, Fasting, prostating, greeting of peace, not eating pork and washing before praying. Remembering the Bible verse is good for their reference, a sincere Christians would check what you said when they reach home and inshallah it will open the doors for them if they are really looking for truth.
We should not separate the Bible from Quran instead I feel we should bring it in a way that Quran is extension of God's previous revelations to all the Prophets (peace be upon them all). Later on inshallah when they accept ISLAM, they will appreciate you much and they can tell within themselves that YES BIBLE IS NOT WORDS of GOD.
Ramadhan
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I forgot to add these points by the time I posted mine:
As muslim we believe that Musa (as), Daud (as) and Eesa (as) were given taurah, zabur and injeel as Allah SWT tells us in the Qur'an.
However, Allah SWT also mentions that scribes/rabbis/priests changed and corrupted the message after the departures of the prophets (as) and the true unadulaterated message was lost.
Bible may still contain some traces of injeel, zabur and taurah, but those little traces are lost among many falsehoods as the scribes/rabbis/priests mix up the true message by the prophets (as). If they are confirmed by Qur'an, then they are from Allah SWT.
For example these passage from Deuteronomy:
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
It is clear that it is consistent with "La Ilaha Ilallaahu" (there is no God but Allah) and hence that deuteronomy passage still retains the true message.
However, when saul of tarsus in the NT wrote that Jesus (pbuh) was God who came down to earth to kill himself in order to erase the sins of humanity, that is clearly not from God.
As muslim we believe that Musa (as), Daud (as) and Eesa (as) were given taurah, zabur and injeel as Allah SWT tells us in the Qur'an.
However, Allah SWT also mentions that scribes/rabbis/priests changed and corrupted the message after the departures of the prophets (as) and the true unadulaterated message was lost.
Bible may still contain some traces of injeel, zabur and taurah, but those little traces are lost among many falsehoods as the scribes/rabbis/priests mix up the true message by the prophets (as). If they are confirmed by Qur'an, then they are from Allah SWT.
For example these passage from Deuteronomy:
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
It is clear that it is consistent with "La Ilaha Ilallaahu" (there is no God but Allah) and hence that deuteronomy passage still retains the true message.
However, when saul of tarsus in the NT wrote that Jesus (pbuh) was God who came down to earth to kill himself in order to erase the sins of humanity, that is clearly not from God.
Salam Sister,
No one can say that there are other Words of Allah except the Holy Quran simply because only Quran proves it is the word of Allah for many reason, the oldest book still exist, and there is no error in Quran.
Ramadhan
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Again, which old testament?
Protestant's old testament contain 39 books while catholic old testament has 46 books and others (ethipian, eastern orthodox etc) have different number of books.
Also, which bible? the greek bible or the hebrew bible?
In addition, the torah (pentateuch) written in the old testament, most of which couldn't have been written by Musa (as) as proven by Thomas Hobbes in the 17th century and by most bible scholars today. For example, there are parts in the torah that recount the stories of Musa (as) death and burial. umm... do you think the dead Musa (pbuh) wrote those stories from his grave?
Most of old testament were written by scribes and rabbies, the most famous of which was Ezra who heavily edited the hebrew scriptures.
As I explained in my previous post, there are traces of word of God in bible (in the torah, psalm or gospels part) which can be confirmed by Qur'an such as that passage in Deuteronomy (deuteronomy is the last part of the pentateuch) about oneness of God and prohibition of worshipping idols. However, most of old testament were clearly and factually made up by those scribes and rabbis, deviating from the truth/message brought by the prophets (pbut).
Abz2000
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yes, the Quran confirms there is some - but we must bear in mind that it may have been re-interpreted in translation:
29. Muhammad is the Messenger of God. and those who are with him are strong against disbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Almighty God and (His) Good Pleasure.
On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration.
This is their similitude in the Taurat;
and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade,
then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight.
As a result, it fills the disbelievers with rage at them.
Almighty God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
Quran 48:29
And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.
And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
ezekiel 8&9
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 7
And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches;
so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
Mark 4:30-32
and for those who changed the word:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!
- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for the gain they make thereby.
Quran 2:79
46. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places,
and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith.
If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper;
but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
47. O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you,
before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition,
and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out.
Quran 4:46-47
If they get offended by those verses - i just ask them if they think the mistakes were from God or from man,
when they inevitably say: man, they acknowledge that man has tampered with it.
29. Muhammad is the Messenger of God. and those who are with him are strong against disbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Almighty God and (His) Good Pleasure.
On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration.
This is their similitude in the Taurat;
and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade,
then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight.
As a result, it fills the disbelievers with rage at them.
Almighty God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
Quran 48:29
And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.
And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
ezekiel 8&9
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 7
And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches;
so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
Mark 4:30-32
and for those who changed the word:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!
- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for the gain they make thereby.
Quran 2:79
46. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places,
and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith.
If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper;
but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
47. O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you,
before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition,
and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out.
Quran 4:46-47
If they get offended by those verses - i just ask them if they think the mistakes were from God or from man,
when they inevitably say: man, they acknowledge that man has tampered with it.
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I'm probably going to take some shots for this, but I will say it anyway.
I still have my Bible. I still read my Bible from time to time. I still think that there is some good information and good advice for living in the Bible. The Psalms and Proverbs in particular are good. I try to stick to the Old Testament and avoid the New Testament.
I also read my Qur'an. I still think that the Qur'an is the primary source, but I use the Bible as a backup source of inspiration.
*straps on body armor and helmet*
OK, fire away!
Abz2000
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same here - even though i grew up in a Muslim family, i was far from faith, i read both books and found the Quran to hold the test, but that the bible still contains snippets of information that are inspiring, i was able to gain a wealth of knowledge and see it as productive even if only to understand the mind-frame of those who take it as unadulterated truth, there are stories of what some of the Prophets went through, i especially liked the book of Isaiah,
i called my first son Isaiah after confirming that he was indeed a prophet in Islam due to his fearless preaching and scathing condemnations of his own leaders - a true revolutionary.
the prominent historian Ibn Kathir also used any sources available - including the bible to tie in loose ends.
did you know that the story of zamzam is in the book of Genesis even though it is not in the Quran? though the "editors" changed some of the names and places around to suit their domination purposes, they called Isaac the firstborn and "only son" who was to be sacrificed - despite Ishmael being the older one, when i told someone who believed it, they said that it was due to Isaac being born of the married wife,
then when i explained that the 12 sons of Israel (jacob) are not all from married wives, making the children of Israel not the children of Israel, they went into a confused trance.
still - i believe in calling to the truth on the basis or agreement in preference to disagreement though i don't hesitate to point out mistakes when necessary.
say for instance:
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Genesis 22:14
And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty,
but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Exodus 6:2-3
.............Abraham was a long time before Moses.............right???.................
but to dismiss it all as totally false is a no-no once you see parts of the message confirming what is with you.
reading the first verses of the Quran should tell you that the message is continuous:
1. A.L.M.
2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
sifting through and trying not to totally accept or totally deny uncertain parts which can't be confirmed is difficult though,
but must be done by those who choose to delve through it since that's what the Prophet (pbuh) advised us.
look at my signature below...............
i called my first son Isaiah after confirming that he was indeed a prophet in Islam due to his fearless preaching and scathing condemnations of his own leaders - a true revolutionary.
the prominent historian Ibn Kathir also used any sources available - including the bible to tie in loose ends.
did you know that the story of zamzam is in the book of Genesis even though it is not in the Quran? though the "editors" changed some of the names and places around to suit their domination purposes, they called Isaac the firstborn and "only son" who was to be sacrificed - despite Ishmael being the older one, when i told someone who believed it, they said that it was due to Isaac being born of the married wife,
then when i explained that the 12 sons of Israel (jacob) are not all from married wives, making the children of Israel not the children of Israel, they went into a confused trance.
still - i believe in calling to the truth on the basis or agreement in preference to disagreement though i don't hesitate to point out mistakes when necessary.
say for instance:
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Genesis 22:14
And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty,
but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Exodus 6:2-3
.............Abraham was a long time before Moses.............right???.................
but to dismiss it all as totally false is a no-no once you see parts of the message confirming what is with you.
reading the first verses of the Quran should tell you that the message is continuous:
1. A.L.M.
2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
sifting through and trying not to totally accept or totally deny uncertain parts which can't be confirmed is difficult though,
but must be done by those who choose to delve through it since that's what the Prophet (pbuh) advised us.
look at my signature below...............
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Abz2000
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here's another example of amazing lack of mathematics on the part of the ones who put the genealogies together:
so...if Noah (pbuh) was born 1056 AA (after the creation of Adam) and died 2006 AA
and Abraham (pbuh) was born 1948 AA
..........Abraham (pbuh) was not only around but 58 years old when Noah (pbuh) passed away.
this does not make any sense since Noah (pbuh) cleansed the earth of idolatry......and Abraham (pbuh) was born into a time when idolatry was the status quo, practiced by the whole kingdom, even the ancestry had been pagans.
“And rehearse to them (something of) Ibrahim's story.
Behold, he said to his father and his people: "What do you worship?"
They said: "We worship idols, and we remain constantly devoted to them."
He said: "Do they hear you when you call (on them), "Or do they do you good or harm?"
They said: "Nay, but we found our forefathers so doing."
He said: "Do ye then see whom ye have been worshipping, "Ye and your fathers before you?" For they are enemies to me;
not so the Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds; "Who created me, and it is He Who guides me;
"Who provide me food and drink, "And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me; "Who will cause me to die, and then brings me back to life;
"And Who, I hope, will forgive my faults on the Day of Judgment...
"O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous;
"Grant me the power to convey the truth unto those who come after me; "Make me one of the inheritors of the Garden of Bliss;
"Forgive my father, for he is among those who gone astray;
"And let me not be in disgrace on the Day when all will be raised up from the dead;
The Day whereon neither wealth nor children will be of any use,
"But only he (will prosper) who comes to Allah with a heart at total peace with You.”
Quran (26:69-89)
here's another i found:
so...if Noah (pbuh) was born 1056 AA (after the creation of Adam) and died 2006 AA
and Abraham (pbuh) was born 1948 AA
..........Abraham (pbuh) was not only around but 58 years old when Noah (pbuh) passed away.
this does not make any sense since Noah (pbuh) cleansed the earth of idolatry......and Abraham (pbuh) was born into a time when idolatry was the status quo, practiced by the whole kingdom, even the ancestry had been pagans.
“And rehearse to them (something of) Ibrahim's story.
Behold, he said to his father and his people: "What do you worship?"
They said: "We worship idols, and we remain constantly devoted to them."
He said: "Do they hear you when you call (on them), "Or do they do you good or harm?"
They said: "Nay, but we found our forefathers so doing."
He said: "Do ye then see whom ye have been worshipping, "Ye and your fathers before you?" For they are enemies to me;
not so the Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds; "Who created me, and it is He Who guides me;
"Who provide me food and drink, "And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me; "Who will cause me to die, and then brings me back to life;
"And Who, I hope, will forgive my faults on the Day of Judgment...
"O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous;
"Grant me the power to convey the truth unto those who come after me; "Make me one of the inheritors of the Garden of Bliss;
"Forgive my father, for he is among those who gone astray;
"And let me not be in disgrace on the Day when all will be raised up from the dead;
The Day whereon neither wealth nor children will be of any use,
"But only he (will prosper) who comes to Allah with a heart at total peace with You.”
Quran (26:69-89)
here's another i found:
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Insaanah
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"How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?"
(Jeremiah 8:8-9)
Either this verse is from the original text stating the truth, and the Bible has been altered, OR this verse is not from the original text, i.e. someone has written that verse in the book themselves, and the Bible has thus been altered.
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Who Am I?
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I actually talked to an older brother at masjid last night about this. Before the time of the Messenger (saws), people followed the example of the latest prophet. Before Muhammad (saws), it would have been Jesus (pbuh). before Jesus, it would have been someone else, and so on.
Early Christianity was in fact Islam. The two were identical. It wasn't until a few hundred years after the death of Jesus that Christianity took its modern form. All of the Old Testament prophets preached the message of Islam.
Abz2000
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the council of nicea - after the roman emperor decided to "accept" the faith,
most of the people were accepting it and the emperor attempting to clamp down would have meant revolution at home.
nero tried by staging a false flag arson attack and blaming it on the believers - but failed.
the whole thing was turned into something unrecognisable by the nicean council,
in my opinion paganism just made a compromise in order to survive the tide of faith that was engulfing it.
most of the people were accepting it and the emperor attempting to clamp down would have meant revolution at home.
nero tried by staging a false flag arson attack and blaming it on the believers - but failed.
the whole thing was turned into something unrecognisable by the nicean council,
in my opinion paganism just made a compromise in order to survive the tide of faith that was engulfing it.
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Who Am I?
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The Catholic Church is in my opinion a pagan order. At the very least, they are idolators. They worship Mary and the Saints and pray to their statues as well as a statue of Jesus on the Cross.
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Exactly.
I always wondered when a christian read that verse in the bible, surely they must come to conclusion that bible has been altered.
That is, if they use their god-given capacity to think and ponder.
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Remember this: thoughout most of the Middle Ages, the Bible was only available in Latin. So only the educated nobility and clergy could actually read it for themselves (and the version they read was of course edited and sanctioned by Rome).
The commoners could not read or speak Latin, so they had to rely on what their local priest told them that the Bible said.
I don't think I have to point out the flaws in this system. But then, the clergy and nobility wanted it that way, because they wanted to hold onto their power.