Is the bible the word of God

[Abz2000]

and hence jesus knew he was going to get killed and he didn't prevent it anyway even though he had the power.
So he let himself be killed. so god let himself be killed.

If that is not a definition of suicide, I don't know what is.

i'm not sure there - maybe Jesus (pbuh) knew he was being betrayed - and only Allah knew how He would actually raise him, but Prophet Jesus (pbuh) played along for a political purpose, their power was low, and he needed more hearts and minds than weapons.
even if he (pbuh) was assuming they may kill him (he was human - although a messenger),

Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you.
I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."
Quran 46:9

he may have decided that it was the best course of action - it would not be suicide - it would be exposing who the real criminals are. a murder which would take the world by storm, however Allah did it in another way

And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve;
and I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you in those matters wherein ye dispute.
Quran 3:55

as can be seen in the story of the boy and the king - which i believe is a parable of certain events which are yet to come due to the fact that no clear historical event as such has yet happened - the boy finally allows the king to murder him, only by telling him the method was the king able to kill him, but the killing converted the whole nation due to finding out that they couldn't do it without Allah's permission and it also overcame their fear of death.
it was the greatest act of dawah, and the boy became a witness/martyr - same word in arabic.
''The boy used to treat the people suffering from congenital blindness, leprosy, and other diseases.
Other ahadith tell us that Dajjal will offer to people a choice between a fire and a river.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIvIgh34WuU

 

[Ramadhan]

i'm not sure there - maybe Jesus (pbuh) knew he was being betrayed - and only Allah knew how He would actually raise him, but Prophet Jesus (pbuh) played along for a political purpose, their power was low, and he needed more hearts and minds than weapons.
even if he (pbuh) was assuming they may kill him (he was human - although a messenger),

he may have decided that it was the best course of action - it would not be suicide - it would be exposing who the real criminals are. a murder which would take the world by storm, however Allah did it in another way

I don't think you get it yet.

Sis. bluebell and I were not talking about muslims belief.

We are pointing out the clear error of christian belief, where they believe that Eesa (as) was God. and since God is omniscient and omnipotent, the fact that christians believe that eesa (as) aka God was willingly take out his own life can only mean that God was suicidal.

 

[Abz2000]

Yes brother, you're correct, and I said that:

....i know you are referring to erroneous beliefs, but must be clarified.

but was I was setting straight was that even the erroneous belief didn't say suicide, and that wouldn't be suicide in that sense in Islam either, as can be seen in the lesson of the boy and the king.
It is murderers exposed in order to wake people up from their slumber,
Though I will clarify that it is a ridiculous notion to say Almighty God was murdered - by Romans and Jews!

 

[Ramadhan]

but was I was setting straight was that even the erroneous belief didn't say suicide, and that wouldn't be suicide in that sense in Islam either, as can be seen in the lesson of the boy and the king.
It is murderers exposed in order to wake people up from their slumber,

Of course christians would never say that God committed suicide, but that is clearly what it reduces to, no?

Please tell me if I made any error in the logical deduction:

Jesus is God.
God is omniscient and omnipotent.
God knew he was going to get killed.
God let himself get killed.
Hence God committed suicide.

There is fallacy when you make an analogy with the story of "the boy and the king". In that story, the boy believed 100% in the protection from Allah SWT and did NOT want to be killed so he asked Allah for help and protection and so Allah protected him.
Now, contrast that with christians belief that Jesus is God, and hence Jesus must have known he would have been killed, and christians believe that Jesus was willingly to be killed, and hence God was willingly to be killed and hence the suicidal God.

Though I will clarify that it is a ridiculous notion to say Almighty God was murdered - by Romans and Jews!

Anyone with a working single brain cell would also find it ridiculous that God is murdered at all. But that is what christians believe, they follow the way of their ancestors because they find it convenient, not much different from the makkan quraysh actually.

I will post this Qur'an ayat so christians like brother Eric who believes that he is a christians because of God's will can ponder and think:

Sahih International:
Those who associated with Allah will say, "If Allah had willed, we would not have associated [anything] and neither would our fathers, nor would we have prohibited anything." Likewise did those before deny until they tasted Our punishment. Say, "Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying." (QS. 6:148)

 

[Abz2000]

There is fallacy when you make an analogy with the story of "the boy and the king". In that story, the boy believed 100% in the protection from Allah SWT and did NOT want to be killed so he asked Allah for help and protection and so Allah protected him.

when the king was about to dispatch the third set of disposable soldiers, the boy said - don't bother, you won't be able to - and he told him how it would be possible, and the king committed the murder. the boy was NOT trying to die but to gain his freedom and the freedom of the people around him, the king was unrelenting so the boy told him how to do it.
it was murder - not suicide.

to brother Eric, with all due respect:
17Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD:
do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jeremiah 7

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I am not learned.
13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Isaiah 29

please refer to the nicene creed and tell me if it's based on any clear authority from the bible - or whether it is the precept of men.
peace

 

[YusufNoor]

Salam akaikum.
I am asking these questions because i am wanting to give dawah to work colleagues and I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about first.

Jazak Allah khair

here's what we believe that we know about the Jewish Bible:

5 books of the Torah - the 5 books of the torah were edited by Ezra. they consisted of stories from the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. Deuteronomy is believed to have been written by Jeremiah/Baruch ben Nariah; and the "Priestly" additions were done around the times of the Judaic Kings Josiah and Hezekiah with further revision by Ezra.

the Prophets - from Deuteronomy thru II Kings, authorship goes back to the team of Jeremiah and Baruch. Twelve Minor Prophets—published by the Men of the Great Assembly in one scroll. Ezra was the head of the Great Assembly.

the Writings had various authors, David, Solomon, Moses, Ezra and Nehemiah.

the New Testament. authorship of 7 of the letters of Paul is certain, the rest is uncertain.

that is an overall historical viewpoint of scholarship.

:wa:

 

[Karl]

The Catholic Church is in my opinion a pagan order. At the very least, they are idolators. They worship Mary and the Saints and pray to their statues as well as a statue of Jesus on the Cross.

Well don't Muslims worship the black stone in Makkah and throw stones at pillers that represent devils as part of the Hajj and have their Holy towns and places like the Hindus, Christians etc. I think Paganism is in all the worlds religions to some degree. One of the ancient kings of Egypt wanted to go monotheistic and only have temples to Amon Ra as he thought the number of Gods and temples were over the top. But there was an uproar by all the priests making a living from all these temples so the King backed off. Monotheism didn't sell and the first rule of a leader is "keep the mob happy".
So if God is greatest why do you need all the other stuff? The Majids the symbolism the Holy places?

 

[Ramadhan]

Well don't Muslims worship the black stone in Makkah

What is this black stone you are talking about? I am a muslim and I've been to Makkah (or masjidil haram if we want to be more precise), and I never worshiped any black stone nor did I see any muslim worship any black stone and I saw hundreds of thousands of muslims at ANY given time.

Karl, clearly you are either a new muslim who refuses to learn anything about Islam aside from what you read in anti-Islam hate sites, or you are not a muslim but pretending to be one for God knows why.
I am basing this not on just this post, but from many of your previous posts where you have shown not only lack of basic knowledge about Islam but also against what Allah has said in the Qur'an such as in this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/general...ust-myth-people-1000-years-5.html#post1461833

 

[Aprender]

Well don't Muslims worship the black stone in Makkah and throw stones at pillers that represent devils as part of the Hajj and have their Holy towns and places like the Hindus, Christians etc. I think Paganism is in all the worlds religions to some degree. One of the ancient kings of Egypt wanted to go monotheistic and only have temples to Amon Ra as he thought the number of Gods and temples were over the top. But there was an uproar by all the priests making a living from all these temples so the King backed off. Monotheism didn't sell and the first rule of a leader is "keep the mob happy".
So if God is greatest why do you need all the other stuff? The Majids the symbolism the Holy places?

Pardon me for my words but what you wrote here is very foolish to put it lightly. How can you say this and still call yourself a Muslim?

 

[Abz2000]

Narrated ‘Abis bin Rabia:
‘Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said,
"No doubt, I know that you are a stone AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE.
Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667)

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam that his father said:
"I saw ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab kissing the Black Stone and he then said, (to it)
‘Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you, (stone) I WOULD NOT HAVE KISSED YOU.’" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 679)

Muslims neither ask of the stone - nor pray to it.

 

[Karl]

The black stone is the Kaba.

 

[جوري]

The black stone is the Kaba.

No.. it isn't..
this is the black stone

and this is the kaaba

 

[MustafaMc]

Surely, you jest. The black stone is not the Kaaba, but rather a small portion thereof encased in silver.

 

[MustafaMc]

No.. it isn't..
this is the black stone

and this is the kaaba

Yes, you are of course correct. I thought all Muslims knew this and have the same respect for it that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) had.

 

[Abz2000]

i liked one of karl's threads and loved one of his fiery comments! - so i will think the best of him and put it down to a mistake,
also brother karl - the Ka'bah is not prayed to - it is a prayer direction,
a question you may get from someone who doesn't believe may be: why this prayer direction?
Answer (without getting into the commands) : why any other? and the same question could be asked of any choice they make.........it's just a prayer direction which God directed us to - it was Jerusalem before that verse of revelation came down.
or should we all pray in different directions? imagine all the bumping heads in the mosque.
we hold onto the door and ask of Almighty God due to the fact that Abraham (pbuh) built it as the first ever dedicated site to the worship of the Almighty.
and God accepted it.
it's now "His House" - though he doesn't live in it, even the galaxy is too tiny, it's an offer of dedicated service which He accepted, making it sacred - even the Ka'bah is broken down and rebuilt when it falls apart. and it's even been re-sized (used to be rectangular incorporating the semi-circle wall according to a narration is sahih Muslim).

In the Targhib wa’ l-Tarhib of Imam al-Mundhiri, 3/276 it has the following hadith from `Abd Allah ibn `Amr ibn al-`As (Allah be well pleased with him) that he said:“I saw the Messenger of Allah (saw) performing tawaf around the Holy Ka`ba saying to it:
‘how pure and good you are! how pure and good your fragrance is!
how great and exalted you are! and how great and exalted your sanctity is!
But by Him in Whose hand is Muhammad’s soul,
the sanctity of a believer’s blood and property in the sight of Allah is greater than your sanctity!’“

 

[Ramadhan]

The black stone is the Kaba.

HUH???

since when is the black stone ka'ba?

Seriously karl, where do you obtain information about Islam?
www.IkknownothingaboutIslambutletsmakeuptheseliestodiscreditIslam.com ?

 

[Ramadhan]

Any muslim would know that Ka'ba is never black.

Seriously Karl, if you really are a muslim, then learn at least how to pray, and read the qur'an and learn some basic knowledge.

 

[Amigo]

I thought you believe jesus is God, and didn't he communicate in words?

He communicated in far more than words. In facts, words were his least method of communication. The Gospel is not his words (only) but him in his full person and life.

Considering how the discussion has turned out, even looking like it is going beyond the subject, it is comfirming again what happens when words are not considered to their right capacity or potential.

 

[Ramadhan]

He communicated in far more than words. In facts, words were his least method of communication. The Gospel is not his words (only) but him in his full person and life.

Poor Jesus (pbuh)
First, christians made a claim that He is God and worship him as God.
and then now Christians claim he was not effective with words.
Is that why bible is full of made up words by Saul and other rabbis/priests/scribes and then falsely attributed them to Jesus (pbuh)?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Is the rock similar to the crucifix that catholics put in their homes? Not something to be worshiped, but something to focus on and channel worship to God?