Christianity or Islam?

format_quote Originally Posted by Turin Turambar

blackjubba,

1.- The Christianity we practice today is the same one the Apostles practiced back then. The only difference is that we have had two thousand years to develop a more perfect understanding of those teachings. In Christian countries we are always improving our thinking, never going back and imitating a long-forgotten past as Muslims do.

2.- We follow Jesus, who is the one in which the law was perfected. In that sense we are certainly following the law. Once again, we Christians look forward, that is why we have progressed socially and technologically. We are always improving our thinking and acting.

3.- When I say that Muhammad and his successors were aggressors, I am using the Muslim sources. Check in the websites of Ibn Warrraq and Ali Sina. They have a very detailed description of everything that Muhammad did.

In # 1 of your post, you have admitted to changing things. Which is why I stated that you do not practice the same Christianity as the Apostle's did. If you did, you would not have changed anything or felt the need to modernize your faith. It is that type of thinking that has allowed Modern Day Christians (I don't mean you per se) to engage in conduct that is against their own faith - i.e. same sex marriages and women preachers! I could go on, but we already know all the things that have now been allowed by some modern day Christians. Muslims such as myself embrace what you call the forgotten past, because Allah has told us in the Qu'ran, that HE has perfected our religion. If Allah (God) has perfected mans religion for him, then who are we to make modern day changes that WE feel are best, just to suite our desires?

In # 2 you use the term "in that sense." Yes, maybe in that sense, but in reality, most Christians do not follow the Law, citing the teachings of Paul as their reasoning.

In # 3 - I need to research those sources. I believe them to be inaccurate and exaggerated, but I'll get back to you on this one. I cannot comment on something I have never read.

About the passage where Jesus didn't stone the girl, one of the reasons could be because you need witnesses. If all the witnesses leave then there is no allegation, thus no reason to stone. However the gospels are written by men...

All inspiration is divine, the level or purity of it's divinity will never matter, because the Quran is the word of Allah (Swt).

Inspiration comes from Allah (swt) alone, even if it's the shaytan inspiring something bad, it's still from Allah (swt). If it's good or bad, all is from Allah (swt), thus the gospels can never be a source to lead life by when you have the Quran, which is directly from Allah.

Have you read the Quran? I reverted not too long ago and I'm currently reading it, it's better to actually research the religion from that religion's source.

For example, if I were to study Christianity I'm not going to ask a few Atheists that used to be Christian. I also wouldn't ask the Jews that criticise Christianity. It's like learning football from people that hate football.

Of course you can check it out, like in the cases of Ali Sina and Ibn Warraq, but after I looked at those websites and read some debates it's clear that all they do is take verses out of context, number one, and number two they use non-authentic hadeeths (a source of history that involves the actions and sayings of the prophet.)

I just want to let you know from first hand experience, going to those sites will brain wash almost anyone that's not Muslim or is uneducated or has weak faith. The way they debate over there is by slandering. They first attack the character of Mohammed then they attack your character.

You should learn from brother Ansar Al-'Adl, very knowledgable in refuting false claims

Christians believe they know better than God and just change what they don't like.

sorry I didn't know, I thought... I knew better than God

btw... I don't!

Why do we have to compare Jesus and Mohammad? They were two very different individuals, sent by God. They each were sent to serve a different purpose.

Greetings and peace sargon,

About the passage where Jesus didn't stone the girl, one of the reasons could be because you need witnesses.

Here is the passage of John's Gospel and I think you may see a different message

John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

If all the witnesses leave then there is no allegation, thus no reason to stone. However the gospels are written by men...

The Gospel of John continues.

The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

I feel that Jesus was trying to put across a different message that we should look at our own sins before we judge other people. If we judge others and punish them then we may not leave so much room for God to judge them a second time for that sin. We should even strive to forgive others and pray for them so that we leave room for God to judge.

The message to forgive and not to judge others is indeed powerful.

In the spirit of seeking justice for all

Eric

Greetings and peace renak;

Why do we have to compare Jesus and Mohammad? They were two very different individuals, sent by God. They each were sent to serve a different purpose

We may each share in doing good deeds, and as you say if only we could stop competing against each other in faith; then life would indeed be better for all of us.

In the spirit of seeking interfaith friendships

Eric

inappropriate

format_quote Originally Posted by islamictruth

inappropriate

Salam.
Sister please try to refrain from such bursts. We are here to discuss educate and learn, not to attack. Talking like that will get us no where.
Wasalam.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamictruth

inappropriate

The anger and hate in your heart that you have shown here is not what I expect God would wish.
I hope you find some peace.

btw Christians do not go around knocking on peoples door...I think you are mixing Christianity up with JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES who are not Christians in fact. Also the church is a building yes...but to a Christian the church is the Christian people, we ourselves.. our bodies are the Holy temple the church is the body of Christ.

Do you personaly know any Christians who shag drink and dance naked thats all u guys know, I don't do those things and I neither know any fellow Christians who do either.
This is like me saying all Muslims are suicide bombers and terrorists...It would be quite ignorant of me to say the least!

Greetings and peace be with you islamictruth and welcome to the forum;

We must pray for each other in the hope that we may all gain salvation'

In the spirit of seeking interfaith friendships

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H

Greetings and peace sargon,


Here is the passage of John's Gospel and I think you may see a different message

John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

The Gospel of John continues.

The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

I feel that Jesus was trying to put across a different message that we should look at our own sins before we judge other people. If we judge others and punish them then we may not leave so much room for God to judge them a second time for that sin. We should even strive to forgive others and pray for them so that we leave room for God to judge.

The message to forgive and not to judge others is indeed powerful.

In the spirit of seeking justice for all

Eric

The law that Moses laid down isn't the laws of men, it was also sent by Allah so I don't know what Jesus (pbuh) could be talking about.

I think he's referring to the fact that you need 2 witnesses to refute a claim but I have no idea...

I understand the message of love and turn the other cheek, it's very appealing but had little effect on the world, didn't build a society, and isn't able to manage humankind as effectively as Islam, thus I chose Islam.

A good example would be if some crimes were comitted such as theft, and the burgler always got away because we kept forgiving him. This leads other people into thinking it's ok, and causes corruption in society.

In Islam when you have a chance to forgive it is a virtue to do so, but not when other people would be put in danger because you forgave someone.

[Pickthal 42:41] And whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong - for such, there is no way (of blame) against them.
[Pickthal 42:42] The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom.
[Pickthal 42:43] And verily whoso is patient and forgiveth - lo! that, verily, is (of) the steadfast heart of things.

If someone did happen to steal from you, you could sit at the place of punishment cursing them, or hold a grudge, or you could forgive them. Either way actions need to be taken in society when people harm other people.

format_quote Originally Posted by sargon

The law that Moses laid down isn't the laws of men, it was also sent by Allah so I don't know what Jesus (pbuh) could be talking about.

I think he's referring to the fact that you need 2 witnesses to refute a claim but I have no idea...

I understand the message of love and turn the other cheek, it's very appealing but had little effect on the world, didn't build a society, and isn't able to manage humankind as effectively as Islam, thus I chose Islam.

A good example would be if some crimes were comitted such as theft, and the burgler always got away because we kept forgiving him. This leads other people into thinking it's ok, and causes corruption in society.

In Islam when you have a chance to forgive it is a virtue to do so, but not when other people would be put in danger because you forgave someone.

[Pickthal 42:41] And whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong - for such, there is no way (of blame) against them.
[Pickthal 42:42] The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom.
[Pickthal 42:43] And verily whoso is patient and forgiveth - lo! that, verily, is (of) the steadfast heart of things.

If someone did happen to steal from you, you could sit at the place of punishment cursing them, or hold a grudge, or you could forgive them. Either way actions need to be taken in society when people harm other people.

Turning the other cheek at crime and violence is not OK, because it does not demonstrate justice. What Christ meant by turning the other cheek is simply when a Christian is being persecuted, avoid retaliation. 2 Peter 1:20; (Yet) first (you must) understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is (a matter) of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening,solving). The verse is simply stating to interpret scripture with scripture. Thats why there are some so called Christians that will over-look justice. Yes, we are to be forgiving as Christ was, that the Love of God can be shown.(example; the women caught in adultery). Christ did tell the women caught in adultery to go and SIN NO MORE..The fact is justice was there, Christ told her what she did was in fact a Sin. So now we have God's justice and mercy.

Christianity or Islam?

yeeeea...so i think its gotto be Islam for sure. Too much truth in it.