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    Proof of God (OP)


    The Islamic belief and subsequently the Islamic way of life are premised on an intellectual basis. Therefore, Islam is neither a religion nor a set of values and rituals that arise from blind faith. Rather, Islam is an intellectual belief from which emanates a comprehensive socio-political and economic system. To understand the unique system that Islam offers necessitates the explanation of the Islamic belief i.e. the belief in God, Allah (swt) and the word of God, and the Qur'aan.


    God: The arguments



    Today if you mention God then you'll probably get a negative reaction. It has become the trend to get on with life and not bother to ask the question whether there is a God or not. In fact this question was not even asked much in the days of old, when you simply had to believe in God or be persecuted. Therefore, it is not surprising that people find it easy to believe that the existence of God is a myth, simply because they have never thought deeply about the idea.



    It is because people continued to believe in God blindly i.e. blind faith, rather than use ration, that science and its attempted explanations of universal phenomena was hailed as the 'new (false) God'.



    But let us deal with both arguments - for and against the existence of a Creator - from a rational perspective. A common argument by many Christians and some other religions is that God is the God of many abstract attributes such as Love, Peace, Mercy which indeed are admirable qualities for human beings to aspire to. This characterisation of God is based upon an implicit assumption that God can be likened to human beings thus the attempt to understand God in a human framework. Accordingly, we find in some societies, such as early Greek, that individual gods were used to represent single human attributes, and in other cultures gods have the quality to reproduce.



    The question this begs is whether the essence of an unlimited Creator is understandable through a limited, imperfect human mind when God lies beyond our perception? Rational thought would dictate that if God exists then knowledge of God's attributes can only come from itself. Therefore, famine in the world leading to the deaths of millions would not deny the Justice, Mercy or Love of a supposed God, but would only if one attributed the human essence to God. Similarly, if one understands God as the Governor and Controller of the universe then the notion of God dying is nonsensical. This is the failure of Christianity and indeed all religions, as their belief becomes a matter of blind faith. Consequently, they allow themselves to be plagued by rational contradictions, which inevitably lead to intellectual rise to disprove the existence of God. Are these arguments valid? To understand the validity of any proposed argument the premise should be examined. Science is concerned with the methodology of processes in the physical world, i.e. it deals with 'how' and not 'why'. Thus scientists are not concerned with why gravity exists but how gravity influences bodies to shape this universe.



    The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observation of physical phenomena. Thus the question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe i.e. the tangible and not the intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is "testable'. Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible in order to test. Since God is tangible and contained within the universe, God must be limited and therefore cannot be God.



    Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion that is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is Love.



    To prove or disprove the existence of a Creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only the rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.



    The rational thought



    Man progresses as a result of his thoughts concerning everything around him. Thoughts are what distinguish man from other animals and without them man would be lost. Thought occurs when man receives information about something through his five senses. He then distinguishes it by linking it to previous information and experiences he has encountered. For example, a person comes across a plant. He knows that it is a plant due to previous knowledge of what a plant looks like. But only when he links it with previous information on the various types of plants will he be able to tell if it is edible or poisonous.



    Hence, just receiving information is not enough. It will remain only as information that we cannot appreciate or understand. However the process of linking it to previous information and distinguishing the information is the process of thought and is the key of understanding and progressing.



    Consequently, when man becomes convinced of the correctness of a thought, it becomes a concept, which he carries, thus, affecting his behaviour. For example, if we carry a concept of dislike of someone, it will affect our behaviour towards that person. So we see that carrying false ideas has serious implications for a person and if such false ideas are carried widely it has serious implications for society.



    Thus the idea and question of God has serious implications because the answer obtained becomes the very basis by which we understand the creation and purpose of man, life and the universe. Therefore, the method used should not merely be the rational thought but be comprehensive and agree with reality. Anything hypothetical or emotional should be rejected since their basis disagrees with ration and reality.



    The rational proof



    When we look around at everything we can sense one factor is shared by these things, they are all limited. By limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they all have definable attributes, i.e. they are finite.



    Man is born and he dies. There is no one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain shape, height and volume. The universe is defined as all the celestial bodies and planets. All these objects have a certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.



    The universe is large, but is still a 'finite' space. No scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when they say the universe arose from a Big Bang and is expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand! There is nothing in reality, which is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited.



    A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend on other parts of the food chain for their existence. The water cycle is dependent on the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and of burning mass, and so on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die.



    There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created. Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and is finite and limited, then there must be a Creator. This Creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring it into, or sustain its existence.



    The universe; the sum of finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent - but dependent on what? It is dependent on something to start and sustain life; and something to plan and develop life.



    The only rational and intellectual solution to the question of creation is that there is a Creator, which has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Ration tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately there must be a Creator who is unlimited in every aspect.



    Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends upon something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational, as it does not explain how anything came into existence in the first place. It uses an idea of ' Infinity’, which we know does not exist in reality. It does not, or even make an attempt, to explain-the very first step in the sequence. It is illogical and incomplete in its theory, and far from being scientific. If at its basis the theory is weak, how is it possible to trust the proceeding theoretical argument for the creation of the universe?



    Conclusion




    Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for the existence of a Creator, what Muslims call Allah (swt).



    This intellectual proof of the existence of Allah (swt) is an understanding open for everyone and obligatory for all Muslims to be convinced of. Each person must explore to the limit of his understanding. Blind belief has no place in Islam. Believing through instinctive emotions is unreliable and dangerous as emotions can change and add error to ones belief and actions. And if the basis of the belief is irrational and weak, how can a system of life be built upon it?
    Proof of God

    “Whoever puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is Allah for him.”

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    Re: Proof of God

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    So you're saying evolution has a conscience? Like 'oh... i think i'll grow some eyes now'?

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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    So you're saying evolution has a conscience? Like 'oh... i think i'll grow some eyes now'?
    Obviously not. But evolution is, first and evidently, evolutionary - it builds on what has happened in the past. So break-down the process of evolving a single cell into a lot of little steps. What are the chances of those little steps?

    And the Universe is very old. It has had a lot of time to get it right. It is about 13.7 billion years old. And it is very big. There are a lot of places where it might have happened. There are about 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the Universe.

    Compared to this, the Earth is just one planet around one star and is just 4.5 billion years old. More or less. And humans have only been around for 160,000 years. A lot of wasted effort there, no? You would think any Conscious Designer would not be so wasteful.

    4600 MYA The planet Earth forms from the accretion disk revolving around the young Sun.
    4100 MYA The surface of the Earth cools enough for the crust to solidify. The atmosphere and the oceans form[1].
    4000 MYA Life appears, possibly derived from self-reproducing RNA molecules. These molecules copying/reproducing/replicating requires resources like energy, space and smaller building blocks, which soon become limited, resulting in competition. Natural selection favors those molecules which are more efficient at replication. The atmosphere does not contain any free oxygen.
    3900 MYA Late Heavy Bombardment: peak rate of impact events upon the Earth, Moon, Mars and Venus by asteroids and comets (planetesimals); this constant disturbance may encourage life to evolve (See: Panspermia). It is thought these impacts cause the oceans to boil away completely, more than once; yet life persists[2].
    Cells resembling prokaryotes appear. These first organisms are chemoautotrophs: they use carbon dioxide as a carbon source and oxidize inorganic materials to extract energy. Later, prokaryotes evolve glycolysis, a set of chemical reactions that free the energy of organic molecules such as glucose. Glycolysis generates ATP molecules as short term energy currency and is used in almost all organisms unchanged to this day. Lifetime of the last universal ancestor; the split between the bacteria and the archaea occurs.
    3500 MYA Bacteria develop primitive forms of photosynthesis which at first do not produce oxygen. These organisms generate ATP by exploiting a proton gradient, a mechanism still used in virtually all organisms.
    3000 MYA Photosynthesizing cyanobacteria evolve; they use water as reductant, thereby producing oxygen as waste product. The oxygen initially oxidizes dissolved iron in the oceans, creating iron ore. Then the oxygen concentration in the atmosphere rises, acting as a poison for many bacteria.
    2500 MYA Some bacteria evolve the ability to utilize oxygen to more efficiently use the energy from organic molecules such as glucose. Virtually all organisms using oxygen employ the same set of reactions, the citric acid cycle and oxidative phosphorylation. The "runaway icehouse" effect[3] results in the Huronian glaciation (2,500 million-2,100 mya)[4].
    2100 MYA More complex cells appear: the eukaryotes, which contain various organelles. The closest relatives of these are probably the Archaea. Most have organelles which are probably derived from symbiotic bacteria: mitochondria, which use oxygen to extract energy from organic molecules and appear similar to today's Rickettsia, and often chloroplasts, which derive energy from light and synthesize organic molecules and originated from cyanobacteria and similar forms. This is an example of co-evolution.
    1200 MYA Sexual reproduction evolves and leads to faster evolution [5]. While most life occurs in oceans and lakes, some cyanobacteria may already live in moist soil by this time.
    1000 MYA Multicellular organisms appear: initially colonial algae and later, seaweeds, living in the oceans.[6]
    1000-750 MYA The first known supercontinent, Rodinia, forms and then breaks apart again.
    950-780 MYA Sturtian Ice Age. This is a time of multiple near-global glaciation with periods oscillating between a Snowball Earth and a greenhouse Earth.
    900 MYA There are 481 18-hour days in a year. The rotation of the Earth has gradually slowed ever since.
    750-580 MYA According to the Snowball Earth hypothesis, the Precambrian Varangian ice age is so severe that the Earth's oceans freeze over completely; only in the tropics do oceans remain liquid.
    600 MYA Sponges (Porifera), Jellyfish (Cnidaria), flat worms (Platyhelminthes) and other multicellular animals appear in the oceans. Cnidaria and Ctenophora are some of the earliest creatures to have neurons; these are in the form a simple net, with no brain or central nervous system.
    600-540 MYA The second supercontinent, Pannotia, forms and breaks up.
    565-525 MYA The Cambrian explosion, a rapid set of evolutionary changes, creates all the major body plans (phyla) of modern animals. The cause of this huge expansion in the variety of life forms is still a matter of scientific debate. Arthropoda, represented by an abundance of trilobites, is the dominant phylum. Pikaia, a small swimmer of the phylum chordata, is possibly the ancestor of humans. Anomalocaris is a predator up to 2 meters in length whose living descendant today may well be the Pycnogonid, or Sea Spider[7].
    530 MYA First footprints on land [8]
    505 MYA The first vertebrates appear: the ostracoderms, jawless fish related to present-day lampreys and hagfishes. Haikouichthys and Myllokunmingia are examples of these jawless fish, or Agnatha. (See also prehistoric fish).
    488 MYA The first of the seven major extinction events over geological time occurs at the Cambrian-Ordovician transition.
    475 MYA The first primitive plants move onto land[9], having evolved from green algae[10] living along the edges of lakes. They are accompanied by fungi, and very likely plants and fungi work symbiotically together; lichens exemplify such a symbiosis.
    450 MYA Arthropods, with an exoskeleton that provides support and prevents water loss[11], are the first animals to move onto land[12]. Among the first are Myriapoda (millipedes and centipedes), later followed by spiders and scorpions.
    450-440 MYA The two Ordovician-Silurian extinction events occur. Taken together these constitute the second mass extinction event.
    400 MYA First insects are without wings: silverfish, springtails, bristletails. First sharks appear[13]. First Coelacanth appears; the species had been thought to be long-extinct until living specimens were discovered in 1938. It is often referred to as a living fossil.
    370 MYA Cladoselache, a shark, is a high speed predator[14].
    365 MYA The Late Devonian extinction is the third mass extinction.
    Insects evolve on land and in fresh water from the myriapods. Some fresh water lobe-finned fish (Sarcopterygii) develop legs and give rise to the Tetrapoda. This happens in the water; tetrapods (Ichthyostega , Acanthostega and Pederpes finneyae) then use their legs to move out onto land, probably to hunt insects. Lungs and swim bladders evolve. Amphibians today still retain many characteristics of the early tetrapods.
    360 MYA Plants evolve seeds, structures that protect plant embryos and enable plants to spread quickly on land. Creation of Woodleigh crater (100 km wide) and Siljan Ring (40 km wide, Dalecarlia, Sweden).
    360-286 MYA The golden age of sharks[15].
    350-250 MYA Karoo Ice Age, beginning with early Carboniferous and ending with late Permian. Two particular periods in which much of Gondwanaland is glaciated from an early centre in Africa and South America, and a later centre in India and Australia, caused by polar wandering
    300 MYA The supercontinent Pangea forms and will last for 120 million years; this is the last time all of the earth's continents fuse into one. Evolution of the amniotic egg gives rise to the Amniota, reptiles, who can reproduce on land. Insects evolve flight, and include a number of different orders (e.g. Palaeodictyoptera, Megasecoptera, Diaphanopterodea, and Protorthoptera) Dragonflies (Odonata) still resemble many of these early insects. Vast forests of clubmosses (lycopods), horsetails, and tree ferns cover the land; when these decay they will eventually form coal and oil. Gymnosperms begin to diversify widely. Cycads, plants resembling palms, first appear.
    280 MYA The Protodonatan dragonfly Meganeura monyi is among the biggest insects that ever lived, with a wingspan of about 2 feet. Vertebrates include many Temnospondyl, Anthrachosaur, and Lepospondyl amphibians and early anapsid and synapsid (e.g. Edaphosaurus) reptiles.
    256 MYA Diictodon, Cistecephalus, Dicynodon, Lycaenops, Dinogorgon and Procynosuchus, are a few of the many mammal-like reptiles known from South Africa and Russia. Pareiasaurs were large clumsy herbivores. The first Archosauriformes.
    250 MYA The Permian-Triassic extinction event wipes out about 90% of all animal species; this fourth extinction event is the most severe mass extinction known.
    Lystrosaurus is a common herbivore that survives the extinction. The archosaurs split from other reptiles. Teleosts evolve from among the Actinopterygii (ray-finned fish), and eventually become the dominant fish group. Atmospheric oxygen, at 10%, is one third of its former level, so animals with air sac breathing systems will do well (present-day bird respiration exemplifies the air sac system). Some spores of bacteria Bacillus strain 2-9-3 (Sali bacillus marismortui) are trapped in salt crystals known as halite in New Mexico. They are re-animated in AD 2000 and have multiplied rapidly. Currently the world oldest living organism.
    220 MYA The climate is very dry, and dry-adapted organisms are favored: the archosaurs and the Gymnosperms. Archosaurs diversify into crocodilians, dinosaurs, and pterosaurs.
    From synapsids come the first mammal precursors, therapsids, and more specifically the eucynodonts. Initially, they stay small and shrew-like. All mammals have milk glands for their young, and they keep a constant body temperature. Also, one of a pair of autosomes acquires gene SRY (derived from the SOX3 gene of the X chromosome) to become the Y chromosome, which has been decreasing in length since. Gymnosperms (mostly conifers) are the dominant land plants. Plant eaters will grow to huge sizes during the dominance of the gymnosperms to have space for large guts to digest the poor food offered by gymnosperms.
    208-144 MYA Second major spread of sharks[16].
    200 MYA Fifth mass extinction event occurs at the Triassic-Jurassic transition.
    Marine reptiles include Ichthyosaurs and Plesiosaurs. Ammonites and belemnites flourish. Dinosaurs survive the extinction and grow to large size, but the thecodonts, or "socket-toothed" reptiles, die out. Modern amphibians evolve: the Lissamphibia; including Anura (frogs), Urodela (salamanders), and Caecilia. Geminiviridae, a diverse group of viruses, are traceable to this epoch or earlier[17].
    180 MYA The supercontinent Pangea begins to break up into several land masses. The largest is Gondwana, made up of the land masses which are now Antarctica, Australia, South America, Africa, and India. Antarctica is still a land of forests. North America and Eurasia are still joined, forming the Northern supercontinent, Laurasia.
    164 MYA The oldest swimming mammal, Castorocauda lutrasimilis, is the immediate predecessor of modern mammals such as the platypus and echidna.
    160 MYA 3 metres long, Guanlong wucaii - meaning crested dragon from the five colours, Xinjiang province in northwestern China, is the oldest Tyrannosaur.
    150 MYA Giant dinosaurs are common and diverse - Brachiosaurus, Apatosaurus, Stegosaurus, Allosaurus, along with smaller forms like Ornitholestes and Othneilia. Birds evolve from theropod dinosaurs. Archaeopteryx is an ancestor of birds, with claws, feathers but no beak.
    135 MYA New dinosaurs Iguanodon, Hylaeosaurus, etc., appear after extinction of Jurassic forms. Microraptor gui, a 77 cm long dinosaur in Liaoning, Northeast China, has bird-like feathered wings on 4 limbs.
    133 MYA Jeholornis prima, primitive bird in the Jiufotang Formation of north-eastern China eats seeds. The bird has large, strong wings, and also had a long, bony tail, like many dinosaurs.
    130 MYA Angiosperm plants evolve flowers, structures that attract insects and other animals to spread pollen. This innovation of the angiosperms causes a major burst of animal evolution and co-evolution.
    128 MYA One early tyrannosaur is Dilong paradoxus in Lioning Province of China. Has feathers and a small body of 5 feet (1.5 m) long.
    125 MYA Eomaia scansoria, a eutherian mammal, which leads to the formation of modern placental mammals. It looks like a modern dormouse, climbing small shrubs in Liaoning, China. The parrot-beaked Psittacosaurus is the ancestor of the later horned dinosaurs.
    123 MYA Sinornithosaurus millenii is a dinosaur in Liaoning, China that has primitive feathers not used for flight. Other dinosaurs with feathers are Sinosauropteryx (most primitive feathers, simplest tubular structures) and Changchanornis. Have common ancestor with Archaeopteryx. Other dinosaurs include Polacanthus (armoured herbivore) and Eotyrannus (early tyrannosaur).
    110 MYA Sarcosuchus imperator, eight metric tons, 12 m long, head 2 m long, largest crocodile. Carnivorous dinosaurs included the "raptor" Deinonychus and sail-backed semi-aquatic spinosaurs, herbivores include the tallest known sauropod Sauroposeidon proteles, as well as the bulbous-nosed iguanodont Altirhinus (ancestral to duck-bills) and the armoured Sauropelta.
    100 MYA The giant theropod dinosaurs Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus are even bigger than Tyrannosaurus.
    88 MYA Breakup of Indo-Malagasy land mass.
    80 MYA Many kinds of sauropod, duck billed, horned and meat-eating dinosaurs; half of all known dinosaur species are from the last 30 MY of the Mesozoic, after the rise of the angiosperms. India starts moving to Eurasia.
    75 MYA Last common ancestor of humans and mice [18].
    65 MYA The Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event (sixth extinction event) wipes out about half of all animal species including all non-avian dinosaurs, probably because of a cooling of the climate precipitated by the giant impact of an asteroid: iridium powder from the asteroid forms a layer that covers the whole Earth. Creation of the Chicxulub Crater (170 km across, now half-submerged off the Yucatan peninsula of Mexico).
    Without the presence of the giant and diurnal dinosaurs, mammals can increase in diversity and size. Some will later return back to the sea (whales, sirenians, seals) and others will evolve flight (bats). A group of small, nocturnal and arboreal, insect-eating mammals called the Archonta branches into the primates, tree shrews, and bats. Primates have binocular vision and grasping digits, features that help them to jump from one tree branch to another. One example is Plesiadapis which is extinct by 45 million years ago.
    60 MYA Creodont, meat eater, northern hemisphere, extinct by 5.2 million years ago, possible ancestor of Miacids.
    55 MYA Australia breaks away from Antarctica. The earliest true primates, called euprimates, first appear in North America, Asia, and Europe. One example is Carpolestes simpsoni at Clarks Fork Basin of Wyoming. It has grasping digits but no forward facing eyes. Another (earliest?) euprimate Teilhardina asiatica (Hunan, China) is mouse-sized, diurnal, and has small eyes. Mako Sharks are the probable ancestor of the Great White Shark [19].
    50 MYA The evolution of the horse starts with Hyracotherium: the size of a fox with large nails instead of hoofs. Ancestor of whales (which include dolphins), Ambulocetus natans (Pakistan) probably walks on land like the modern sea lion and swims like modern otters. It has webbed feet that give it added power when swimming, and still hears directly from its ears. Pezosiren portelli, ancestor of modern manatees, walks like a hippo and swims like an otter. Miacids include Miacis, a five-clawed ancestor of all dogs, cats, bears, raccoon, fox, hyena, jackal, civet; it is a meat-eating, weasel-like tree climber.
    48.5 MYA Gastornis geiselensis (Europe, USA), 1.75 m tall carnivorous bird, is a top predator
    46.5 MYA Rodhocetus, ancestor of whale, successor to Ambulocetus, no longer needs to drink fresh water.
    43 MYA Earliest elephant, Moeritherium (Egypt): 1m tall, size of a large pig, eats soft, juicy plants. It has a long nose, but no trunk nor tusks.
    40 MYA Primates (order) diverge into suborders Strepsirrhini (lemurs and lorises) and Haplorrhini (tarsiers, monkeys and apes); the latter is diurnal and herbivorous.
    37 MYA Basilosaurus, up to 20 m long, snakelike ancestor of whales, has reduced but well-developed hind limbs. Hears from sounds transmitted to middle ears through vibrations from lower jaws. In Egypt's 'Whale Valley', what would later be the Wadi Hitan desert is underwater, teeming with Basilosaurus isis which had no blowhole but had to raise its head above water to breathe. Early ancestors of strepsirrhines primate appear in the Egyptian desert, Biretia fayumensis and Biretia megalopsis.[20].
    35 MYA Grasses evolve from among the angiosperms.
    30 MYA Haplorrhini (suborder) splits into infraorders Platyrrhini (New World monkeys) and Catarrhini (Old World primates). New World monkeys have prehensile tails and migrate to South America. Catarrhines stay in Africa as the two continents drift apart. One ancestor of catarrhines might be Aegyptopithecus. New World monkey males are color blind. Haplorrhines: Bugtipithecus inexpectans, Phileosimias kamali and Phileosimias brahuiorum, similar to today's lemurs, live in rainforests on Bugti Hills of central Pakistan. Ancestor of all cats, 9 kg Proailurus, lives in trees in Europe, goes extinct 20 million years ago.
    27.5 MYA Indricothere, rhino relative, 4.5 m tall, tallest mammal on land, lives in Mongolia.
    27 MYA Phorusrhacos longissimus (Terror Bird) 2.5 m tall in the Americas. Extinct by 15,000 years ago.
    25 MYA Catarrhini males gain color vision but lose the pheromone pathway [21]. Catarrhini splits into 2 superfamilies, Old World monkeys (Cercopithecoidea) and apes (Hominoidea). The Old World primates do not have prehensile tails (e.g. Baboon); some do not have tails at all. All hominoids are without tails.
    22 MYA India collides with Asia, causing the rise of Himalaya and the Tibetan plateau. Cut off from the humidity, Central Asia becomes a desert. Appearance of deinotherium, ancient elephant, extinct by 2 million years ago. Evolving from an animal that looks part dog, part bear and part raccoon, the dawn bear (Ursavus elmensis) is the ancestor of all bears living today. It is the size of a fox, hunts in the tree tops, and supplements a diet of meat with plant material and insects. The first group, the Ailuropodinae, follows a plant-based diet, branches off, and only one member, the giant panda (Ailuropoda melanoleuca), survives today.
    21 MYA A mongoose-like creature floats to Madagascar from Africa on a raft of vegetation. It becomes the ancestor of all carnivorous mammals there.
    20 MYA The African plate collides with Asia. Cynodictis, ancestor of dogs, has a shortened fifth claw which foreshadows the dewclaw (vestigial) of modern dogs. They look like the modern day civet and have feet and toes suited for running. The two superfamilies of carnivores (canines and felines) are distinct by this time. Gomphotherium, ancient elephant.
    19 MYA Megatherium americanum (giant sloth 6m long). Extinct 8000 years ago.
    16 MYA Squalodon shows early echolocation of whales. Megalodon is a gigantic shark the size of a bus [22]; it has a long reign and disappears suddenly about 1.6 MYA.
    15 MYA Apes from Africa migrate to Eurasia to become gibbons (lesser apes) and orangutans. Human ancestors speciate from the ancestors of the gibbon. Orangutans, gorillas and chimpanzees are great apes. Humans are hominins.
    13 MYA Human ancestors speciate from the ancestors of the orangutan. A relative of orangutans: Lufengpithecus chiangmuanensis (Northern Thailand). Pierolapithecus catalaunicus, Spain, possibly common ancestor of great apes and humans.
    10 MYA The climate begins to dry; savannas and grasslands take over the forests. Monkeys proliferate, and the apes go into decline. Human ancestors speciate from the ancestors of the gorillas. This is the heyday of the horses as they spread throughout the Northern hemisphere. After 10 MYA they decline in the face of competition from the artiodactyls. Tomarctus, ancestor of dogs, is an extremely dog like animal.
    7 MYA Biggest primate Gigantopithecus is 2 m tall and lives in China (Gigantopithecus blacki), Vietnam, and northern India (Gigantopithecus bilaspurensis). Extinct by 300,000 years ago.
    5.6 MYA Drying up of the Mediterranean Sea (the Messinian Event).
    5 MYA Volcanoes erupt and create the small area of land that joins North and South America. Mammals from North America move South and cause extinction of mammals there.
    Human ancestors speciate from the ancestors of the chimpanzees. The latest common ancestor is Sahelanthropus tchadensis (Chad, Sahara, west of Rift Valley). The earliest in the human branch is Orrorin tugenensis (Millennium Man, Kenya). Chimpanzees and humans share 98% of DNA: biochemical similarities are so great that their hemoglobin molecules differ by only one amino acid. One group of chimps can have more genetic diversity than all of the six billion humans alive today, due to later population bottlenecking on the human lineage. Both chimpanzees and humans have a larynx that repositions during the first two years of life to a spot between the pharynx and the lungs, indicating that the common ancestors have this feature, a precursor of speech.
    4.8 MYA Chimpanzee size hominim genus, Ardipithecus walks upright
    3.7 MYA Some Australopithecus afarensis leave footprints on volcanic ash in Laetoli, Kenya (Northern Tanzania).
    3.5 MYA Orangutans diverge into Bornean (Pongo pygmaeus) and Sumatran (Pongo abelii) sub-species. Great White Sharks appear.
    3 MYA The bipedal australopithecines (early hominins) evolve in the savannas of Africa being hunted by Dinofelis. Species include Australopithecus africanus, Australopithecus bosei. Other genera include Kenyanthropus platyops.
    Gorillas die out on the South bank of the Congo River. North and South America become joined, allowing migration of animals. Modern horses, Equus first appear. Deinotherium (4 m tall), is a gigantic cousin of the elephant, with downward pointing tusks in the lower jaw.
    2.5 MYA Smilodon (Saber-toothed cat) appears.
    2.2 MYA Gorillas diverge into the Western lowland (Gorilla gorilla) and Eastern (Gorilla beringei) sub-species.
    2 MYA Homo habilis (handy man) uses primitive stone tools (choppers) in Tanzania. Probably lives with Paranthropus robustus. Emergence of Broca's area (speech region of modern human brain). Homo species are meat-eating while Paranthropus eats plants and termites. Some chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) at the Southern part of the Congo River branch off to form the Bonobos (Pan paniscus/pigmy chimps). Bonobos live in female dominated society. Saber Tooth moves from North America to South America.
    1.8 MYA Homo erectus evolves in Africa and migrates to other continents, primarily South Asia.
    1.75 MYA Dmanisi man/Homo georgicus (Georgia, Russia), tiny brain came from Africa, with Homo erectus and Homo habilis characteristics. An individual spent the last years of his life with only one tooth by depending on the kindness and compassion of others to obtain sufficient sustenance.
    The glyptodon, a giant armadillo the size of a Volkswagen Beetle, lives in southern Peru.
    1.6 MYA Biggest marsupials: Appearance of Giant Short-faced Kangaroo (Procoptodon goliah) in Australia, extinct by 40,000 years ago. At 2 m to 3 m tall and weighing 200 kg to 300 kg, it is the largest kangaroo ever known. Wombat-like Diprotodon optatum, 2,800 kg, 3 m long, Australia, extinct by 45,000 years ago.
    1.5 MYA Marsupial lion (Thylacoleo carnifex or Leo) appears in Australia and goes extinct by 46,000 years ago.
    1 MYA Genus Canis (coyotes, jackals, wolves, dingoes, domestic dogs) develops as a branch from Tomarctus. The gray fox, Urocyon cinereogenteus is the most primitive canid still alive today.
    800 kYA Gray Wolf (Canis lupus) moves to Arctic North America.
    780 kYA The Earth's last (most recent) geomagnetic reversal.
    700 kYA Common genetic ancestor of humans and Neanderthals.
    500 kYA Homo erectus (Choukoutien, China) uses charcoal to control fire, though they may not know how to create or start it.
    400 kYA Eastern gorillas (Gorilla beringei) diverge into the eastern lowland (G. beringei graueri) and mountain (G. beringei beringei) sub-species. Giant deer Megaloceros giganteus, Ireland; the antlers together span about 3.6 m or larger, extinct by 9.5 kYA.
    355 kYA Three 1.5 m tall Homo heidelbergensis scramble down Roccamonfina volcano in Southern Italy, leaving the earliest known Homo footprints, which were made before the powdery volcanic ash solidified.
    250 kYA The Polar Bear evolves from an isolated high latitude population of Brown Bears.
    195 kYA Omo1, Omo2 (Ethiopia, Omo river) are the earliest known Homo sapiens.
    160 kYA Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens idaltu) in Ethiopia, Awash River, Herto village, practise mortuary rituals and butcher hippos. Their dead bodies are later covered by volcanic rocks.
    150 kYA Mitochondrial Eve lives in Africa. She is the last female ancestor common to all mitochondrial lineages in humans alive today.
    130 kYA Homo neanderthalensis (Neanderthal man) evolves from Homo heidelbergensis and lives in Europe and the Middle East, buries the dead and cares for the sick. Has hyoid bone (60,000 yrs ago, Kebara cave, Israel), used for speech in modern humans. (Today humans use roughly 6000 spoken languages). Uses spear, probably for stabbing rather than throwing. FOXP2 gene appears (associated with the development of speech).
    100 kYA The first anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens) appear in Africa by this time or earlier; they derive from Homo heidelbergensis. Homo sapiens (humans) live in South Africa (Klasies River Mouth) and Israel (Qafzeh and Skhul), probably alongside Neanderthals. Modern humans enter Asia via two routes: one North through the Middle East, and another further South from Ethiopia, via the Red Sea and southern Arabia. (See: Single-origin hypothesis). Mutation causes skin color changes in order to absorb optimal UV light for different geographical latitudes. Modern "race" formation begins. African populations remain more 'diverse' in their genetic makeup than all other humans, since only a subset of their population (and therefore only a subset of their diversity) leaves Africa. For example, mtDNA shows that an individual with English ancestors is more similar genetically to an individual with Japanese ancestors than are two individuals drawn from two African populations.
    82.5 kYA Humans in Zaire fish using sharp blades spears made from animal bones.
    80 kYA Humans make bone harpoons in Katanda, Democratic Republic of Congo.
    74 kYA Supervolcanoic eruption in Toba, Sumatra, Indonesia, causes Homo sapiens population to crash to 2,000. Six years without a summer are followed by a 1,000 year ice-age. Volcanic ash up to 5 m deep covers India and Pakistan.
    70 kYA The most recent ice age, the Wisconsin glaciation, begins.

    Humans in the Blombos cave in South Africa make tools from bones, show symbolic thinking by creating ochre paintings. They also collect and pierce holes through sea shells to make necklaces. Giant beavers (Castoroides ohioensis, Toronto, Canada) largest rodents, length up to 2.5 m, dies out 10,000 years ago.
    60 kYA Y-chromosomal Adam lives in Africa. He is the last male human from whom all current human Y chromosomes are descended.
    50 kYA Modern humans expand from Asia to Australia (to become today's Indigenous Australians) and Europe. Expansion along the coasts happens faster than expansion inland. Woolly rhino (Coelodonta antiquus) in Britain.
    40 kYA Cro-Magnon Humans paint and hunt mammoths in France. They have extraordinary cognitive powers equivalent to modern humans, which enable them to become predators/hunters at the top of the food chain. Extinction of gigantic marsupials in Australia, probably due to humans, results in the lack of domesticated animals, partially leading to the relatively primitive lifestyle of the humans there, later, when compared to the rest of the world.
    32 kYA First sculpture found in Vogelherd, Germany. First (bird bone) flute found in France. Stone tools in Kota Tampan, Malaysia.
    30 kYA Modern humans enter North America from Siberia in numerous waves, some later waves across the Bering land bridge, but early waves probably by island-hopping across the Aleutians. At least two of the first waves left few or no genetic descendants among Americans by the time Europeans arrive across the Atlantic Ocean. Humans reach Solomons. Humans move into Japan. Bow and arrows used in Sahara (grassland). Fired ceramic animal models made in Moravia (Czech Republic).
    28 kYA Oldest known painting: in the Apollo 11 Rock Shelter[23]., Namibia, Africa. A 20 cm-long, 3 cm-wide object found in Hohle Fels Cave near Ulm in the Swabian Jura in Germany is the earliest sculpted stone penis[24].
    27 kYA Neanderthals die out leaving Homo sapiens and Homo floresiensis as the only living species of the genus Homo. Czech invented textile and pressed weaving patterns into pieces of clay before firing them.
    25 kYA Throwing sticks for hunting animals made from mammoth tusk (Poland).
    23 kYA Venus of Willendorf, a small statuette of a female figure, discovered at a paleolithic site near Willendorf, Austria, dates from this era.
    20 kYA Humans leave foot and hand prints in Tibetan plateau. Oil lamps made from animal fats on shells used in caves in Grotte de la Mouthe, France. Bone needles used to sew animal hides. (Shandingdong Man, China). Microblade culture (Northern China). Mammoth bones used to build houses (Russia).
    18 kYA Homo floresiensis existed in the Liang Bua limestone cave on Flores, remote Indonesian island.
    15 kYA The last Ice Age ends. Sea levels across the globe rise, flooding many coastal areas, and separating former mainland areas into islands. Japan separates from Asia mainland. Siberia separates from Alaska. Tasmania separates from Australia. Java island forms. Sarawak, Malaysia and Indonesia separate. One group of humans in the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East develop agriculture and, as a result of the benefits it brings, permanent settlements and cities. These appear first in what is now Iraq. This process of food production, coupled later with the domestication of available animals caused a massive increase in human population that has continued to the present. In this time, also, the cave paintings of Lascaux and Altamira were produced.
    14 kYA Megafauna extinction starts (continuing to current day), where over 100 large mammal species disappear possibly caused by the expanding human population.
    11.5 kYA Extinction of the Sabertooth (Smilodon).
    11 kYA Human population reaches 5 million. Extinction of Homo floresiensis.

    Extinction of woolly mammoth. Domestication of dogs (first domesticated animal) from Grey Wolf subspecies (Canis lupus pallipes). All modern dogs today (5 main groups, about 400 breeds) belong to a single subspecies Canis lupus familiaris.
    10.4 kYA Plant domestication begins with cultivation of Neolithic founder crops in Near East. Jericho (modern Israel) settlement with about 19,000 people.
    10 kYA Sahara is green with rivers, lakes, cattles, crocodiles and monsoons. Japan's hunter-gatherer Jomon culture creates world earliest pottery. Humans reach Tierra del Fuego at the tip of South America, the last continental region to be inhabited by humans (excluding Antarctica).
    8 kYA Domestic wheat Triticum aestivum originates in southwest Asia, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, and Iraq, due to hybridisation of emmer wheat with a goat-grass, Aegilops tauschii.
    6.5 kYA Two rice species are domesticated: Asian rice Oryza sativa and African rice Oryza glaberrima.
    3 kYA Humans start using iron tools.
    AD 1 Human population 150 million.
    AD 1835 Human population 1 billion.
    AD 1969 Humans walk on the moon.
    AD 2006 Human population approaching 6.5 billion[25].
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

  5. #163
    Ansar Al-'Adl's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    Compared to this, the Earth is just one planet around one star and is just 4.5 billion years old. More or less. And humans have only been around for 160,000 years. A lot of wasted effort there, no? You would think any Conscious Designer would not be so wasteful.
    The first problem with this point is that it makes the [unwarranted] assumption that God expends effort in the process of creation.
    The second problem with this point is that it makes the [unwarranted] assumption that humanity is the greatest purpose in the design of this universe. But the Qur'an doesn't states this, in fact it says:
    40:57 The creation of the heavens and the earth is indeed superior to the creation of mankind, yet most of mankind know not.
    Proof of God

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  6. #164
    azim's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    The "Big bang" theory states that the universe came to be from a "big bang", (A really loud explosion) which science predicted then found and not visa verser.
    Hate to be pedantic, but the 'big bang' theory states that all the substance and matter in the universe had at one point in the past zero distance between them (i.e. where one single infintely small singularity). And there was no noise, for obvious reasons.

    why and how the really big explosion occured is the mystery to which we have a number of options ranging from simply nothingness to "other sides of black-holes meaning matter in matter out" to my personal favourite of two universes colliding within a mutiverse scenario.
    All theories that can neither be proven nor disproven with the current level of science and technology.

    Of course one could just say it was created by god, which I think by far is the weakest hypothosis here.
    No one is saying "it was created by God, let's leave it at that, move it on now boys". Rather, the more we discover about the universe, the more we see a sculpted and designed creation - although this is a matter of opinion.

    What can be said is that all the arrows of logic and science point at something existing that is no bound by space, time, the laws of classical or even quantum physics. Something that existed, always existed and always will exist. Why? Because you always need a constant, and thus, to assume that their is a God isn't a uneducated way of dismissing all scientific research, rather it is the decision one makes based on their knowledge and life experience.

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  8. #165
    moez_b10's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    salam i appreciate the sister who put this article, and for anybody who thinks the exitance of God isn't logic then things popping out of nowhere and coming to existence is no where near logic. we dont have to over complicate things with these crazy theories that this is all a mind game ur mind is pulling a big trick on u. as we know the universe is a complex creation so there has to be a creator, just like a computer, it has complex systems in it, everybody knows somebody invented it right? so if you want to get to know God use ur mind just like you use your mind for everything else, dont think faith in God is when a miricle happens to you and you think oh God saved me therefore there has to be a God, its not because of that you shud believe it's His signs which he put for us in the universe. in the Quran it says "And in the Earth there are signs for those who use reason", also " By the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth, indeed He True (existing) just as you are talking"

    Use your Brains that God gave you, Peace
    salam

  9. #166
    anis_z24's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Salam,
    So may I ask what is anyones reason not to believe in God(this goes to who ever doesn't)?

  10. #167
    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by moez_b10 View Post
    salam i appreciate the sister who put this article, and for anybody who thinks the exitance of God isn't logic then things popping out of nowhere and coming to existence is no where near logic. we dont have to over complicate things with these crazy theories that this is all a mind game ur mind is pulling a big trick on u. as we know the universe is a complex creation so there has to be a creator, just like a computer, it has complex systems in it, everybody knows somebody invented it right? so if you want to get to know God use ur mind just like you use your mind for everything else, dont think faith in God is when a miricle happens to you and you think oh God saved me therefore there has to be a God, its not because of that you shud believe it's His signs which he put for us in the universe. in the Quran it says "And in the Earth there are signs for those who use reason", also " By the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth, indeed He True (existing) just as you are talking"

    Use your Brains that God gave you, Peace

    salam
    Haha.....

  11. #168
    HeiGou's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by anis_z24 View Post
    Salam,
    So may I ask what is anyones reason not to believe in God(this goes to who ever doesn't)?
    As far as I can see there are many reasons - the absurdity of the concept of a God who is watching all the time, judging and eventually punishing, the cruelty and injustice of the world which is hard to reconcile with a All-Powerful and Merciful God, the contradiction between having Free Will and an All-Powerful, All-Knowing God, and simple the fact that there is no objective evidence for Him and, thanks to science, no need to assume He exists.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

  12. #169
    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    What is so hard to believe about there being free-will and an All-Merciful All-Powerful God? Is it easier to assume that evolution is the cause of our existence and that we originate from a chimpanzee? *rolls eyes* I think this requires faith too Hei Gou.

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    HeiGou's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by moez_b10 View Post
    salam i appreciate the sister who put this article, and for anybody who thinks the exitance of God isn't logic then things popping out of nowhere and coming to existence is no where near logic.
    No one assumes that things pop out of nowhere. At least no atheist scientists do. Some religious believers do. What is logical about that?

    [quotye] we dont have to over complicate things with these crazy theories that this is all a mind game ur mind is pulling a big trick on u. [/quote]

    No we do not have to over-complicate things, but science works that way. The assumption that God created the world 6002 years ago is a simple explanation for everything, but it is not productive or useful. Science is very productive and highly useful. So it might be easy not to over-complicate things and assume that if you have a disease God wants you to suffer and that is that. But a sensible approach would be to take advantage of the many benefits of modern science and seek medical help. Why would you accept science in medicine and not in cosmology?

    Of course God is complicated too. You can simplify more and claim that the Invisible Pink Unicorn created the Universe last Tuesday. How do you test to see which claim is stronger?

    as we know the universe is a complex creation so there has to be a creator, just like a computer, it has complex systems in it, everybody knows somebody invented it right?
    Complex systems do not need a creator. A computer is obviously the work of a designer. But the Universe was created and has followed clear lines of development ever since. No sign of design there. Life has evolved. You can create complexity through evolution without too much trouble. That is the difference - there is no random chance here. Nor a designer that we can tell.

    Use your Brains that God gave you
    That is what scientists like to think they are doing.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

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    HeiGou's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    What is so hard to believe about there being free-will and an All-Merciful All-Powerful God? Is it easier to assume that evolution is the cause of our existence and that we originate from a chimpanzee? *rolls eyes* I think this requires faith too Hei Gou.
    Ahh, but faith of a different order. Evolution explains the evidence. You can accept that God created the world, but you have to claim ignorance of His intentions or deny the evidence. Evolution is just common sense really. At least on a small scale. Woudl you deny that the slowest gazelle gets eaten by cheetahs and so over time, gazelles get faster as only the faster live to breed? Fish all over the world are getting smaller. Scientists say this is because fish nets are required to be designed to let the smaller ones go and so only the smaller fish produce young. Would you deny that?

    The problem with free will from an agnostic/atheist perspective is that God knows. Before I was born, before the Earth was formed, from the very moment of Creation God knew what I was going to do and what my eventual punishment would be. He placed me where I am knowing that the influences I am under would make me make the decisions I do. Whatever I think or have thought or will think is known to Him. So if I am faced with a decision, the outcome is known already. I may think I have free will, but that decision has been made for me already. Theologians ties themselves in knots on these issues.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

  16. #172
    anis_z24's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    No one assumes that things pop out of nowhere. At least no atheist scientists do. Some religious believers do. What is logical about that?

    [quotye] we dont have to over complicate things with these crazy theories that this is all a mind game ur mind is pulling a big trick on u.
    No we do not have to over-complicate things, but science works that way. The assumption that God created the world 6002 years ago is a simple explanation for everything, but it is not productive or useful. Science is very productive and highly useful. So it might be easy not to over-complicate things and assume that if you have a disease God wants you to suffer and that is that. But a sensible approach would be to take advantage of the many benefits of modern science and seek medical help. Why would you accept science in medicine and not in cosmology?

    Of course God is complicated too. You can simplify more and claim that the Invisible Pink Unicorn created the Universe last Tuesday. How do you test to see which claim is stronger?



    Complex systems do not need a creator. A computer is obviously the work of a designer. But the Universe was created and has followed clear lines of development ever since. No sign of design there. Life has evolved. You can create complexity through evolution without too much trouble. That is the difference - there is no random chance here. Nor a designer that we can tell.



    That is what scientists like to think they are doing.[/quote]

    Salam
    so prove that God does not exisit, I am not trying to frustrate you but you must show us prove as we have.

  17. #173
    HeiGou's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by anis_z24 View Post
    so prove that God does not exisit, I am not trying to frustrate you but you must show us prove as we have.
    I cannot do that nor do I believe for sure that God does not exist.

    Nor would I try if I thought I could. That would be rude.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

  18. #174
    j4763's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    If the only proof is that everything had to be created, who created god?

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    أحمد's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    I cannot do that nor do I believe for sure that God does not exist.

    Nor would I try if I thought I could. That would be rude.


    It is quite obvious, assuming that God doesn't exist is one thing; knowing for sure with proof just cannot happen. The simple reason is that it is outside the capacity of the Human Mind. I would suggest that if you try to grasp something easier; the concept of the "soul". Can anyone tell me exactly what it looks like? (Most likely your answer will be No, if its Yes, then please do not forget to write the description in your post) As for prooving the existence of God, you limit your proofs to what you can see with your eyes, hear with your ears, taste with your tongue, touch with your hand, and smell with your nose. What keeps you so narrow minded, and away from the truth; is that you limit everything to your tiny little brains. As athiests don't really believe in the existence of the soul, they might believe in something even scientists assume; exists: TIME. I would just like to know what colour time is, before I agree with anything as such, Or is it a mere assumption that intervals of any event can be placed upon a physical object; that you cannot sense with any of your senses, nor is it something which you may understand. Scientists assume that there is this physical feature of the "universe" known as time.


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    أحمد's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by j4763 View Post
    If the only proof is that everything had to be created, who created god?


    No-one created God, he has always existed. The Quran answers your question in Surah 112 (its a very small Surah, it'll take you a few seconds to read).


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    czgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed View Post
    It is quite obvious, assuming that God doesn't exist is one thing; knowing for sure with proof just cannot happen. The simple reason is that it is outside the capacity of the Human Mind.
    True. Atheists never say they have proof that there is no god, but theists sometimes claim to have proof that there is. In fact, of course, there is no proof either way.

    As athiests don't really believe in the existence of the soul, they might believe in something even scientists assume; exists: TIME. I would just like to know what colour time is, before I agree with anything as such, Or is it a mere assumption that intervals of any event can be placed upon a physical object; that you cannot sense with any of your senses, nor is it something which you may understand. Scientists assume that there is this physical feature of the "universe" known as time.
    Time is not a physical feature of the universe, nor is it a substance. However, different conceptions of time exist in different fields of thought. Philosophers who follow Kant regard time as one of the two fundamental categories of all our possible experience, while physicists following Einstein see time and space as intimately connected in spacetime. Since these are abstract notions, in neither case does it make sense to ask what colour time is; it's like asking about the colour of memory, forgiveness or generosity. It's what the philosopher Gilbert Ryle would call a category mistake.

    Peace

  23. #178
    abdul Majid's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,


    In fact, of course, there is no proof either way.

    category mistake.

    Peace

    hmm. take a look around you, do you think that all this beauty and speices and colors and so forth came out of a big bang??? we dont even have to talk about humans or mountians or water or anything else, think of animals only??

    How can order come out of disorder?? it cant no way...

    if i drop a cup of oj on the floor, is it gonna make 4 equal cups with the same oj in it?? ofcorse not!!

    listen , WHEN YOU SEE A PAINTING, YOU KNOW ITS A PAINTING WRITE??
    DO YOU HAVE TO SEE THE ARTIST DRAW IT??

    SO YOU SEE THIS GREAT CREATION IN FRONT OF YOU!! DO YOU HAVE TO SEE WHO CREATED IT, NO?!?! BY YOU CAN TELL ITS CREATED BY A FORCE MUCH GREATER THAN YOU, AND THATS GOD ALMIGHTY MY FRIEND
    Proof of God

    "1. Qull huwa Allahu ahad Allahu alssamad Lam yalid walam yoolad Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad"
    Say: He is Allah the One and Only Allah, the Eternal Absolute He begetteth not nor is He begotten And there is none like unto Him.
    (112)



  24. #179
    Eric H's Avatar
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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings and peace abdul Majid;

    hmm. take a look around you, do you think that all this beauty and speices and colors and so forth came out of a big bang??? we dont even have to talk about humans or mountians or water or anything else, think of animals only??

    How can order come out of disorder?? it cant no way...
    These maybe the reasons that you or I take as proof for the existence of God, because we have a need to believe in God, BUT and it is a huge but;

    We cannot look at a tree, mountain, animal, bird or human and say yes the God of Islam created all this, in a way we have to strive for proof of a religion as a separate issue.

    In a way our friend czgibson has to find a need for God before he will find him, a certain amount of proof is there but you have to want to find it before you start searching.

    To anyone who uses logic this seems to suggest that you have to almost conjure up the evidence you need to find your conclusions. At some point you may come to a conclusion that total proof does not exist and you just accept the existence of God on a certain amount of trust and faith.

    In the spirit of searching for God

    Eric











    210148]hmm. take a look around you, do you think that all this beauty and speices and colors and so forth came out of a big bang??? we dont even have to talk about humans or mountians or water or anything else, think of animals only??

    How can order come out of disorder?? it cant no way...

    if i drop a cup of oj on the floor, is it gonna make 4 equal cups with the same oj in it?? ofcorse not!!

    listen , WHEN YOU SEE A PAINTING, YOU KNOW ITS A PAINTING WRITE??
    DO YOU HAVE TO SEE THE ARTIST DRAW IT??

    SO YOU SEE THIS GREAT CREATION IN FRONT OF YOU!! DO YOU HAVE TO SEE WHO CREATED IT, NO?!?! BY YOU CAN TELL ITS CREATED BY A FORCE MUCH GREATER THAN YOU, AND THATS GOD ALMIGHTY MY FRIEND[/QUOTE]

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  26. #180
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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings,

    It never ceases to amaze me how strongly some theists will rely on the argument from design.

    Quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid View Post
    hmm. take a look around you, do you think that all this beauty and speices and colors and so forth came out of a big bang???
    I believe in the Big Bang theory because it's currently the best on offer.

    if i drop a cup of oj on the floor, is it gonna make 4 equal cups with the same oj in it?? ofcorse not!!
    No, but what does this prove?

    listen , WHEN YOU SEE A PAINTING, YOU KNOW ITS A PAINTING WRITE??
    DO YOU HAVE TO SEE THE ARTIST DRAW IT??
    Of course not.

    SO YOU SEE THIS GREAT CREATION IN FRONT OF YOU!! DO YOU HAVE TO SEE WHO CREATED IT, NO?!?!
    But how do I know it was consciously created? This is a very different case from creating a painting. After all, I've seen people create paintings many times. It happens every day. I've even done it myself.

    But I've never seen or heard of anyone creating a universe.

    BY YOU CAN TELL ITS CREATED BY A FORCE MUCH GREATER THAN YOU, AND THATS GOD ALMIGHTY MY FRIEND
    No need to shout. I'd like you to have a think about this question: would you say god is an ordered or a disordered being?

    Peace

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