Proof of God
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Like I said - I would not present the parting of the moon as proof to you.
Rather I presented the Quran and three aspects of it that proved it to be beyond human creation - thus true - thus divine.
Pay attention to the three links I provided - thanks to Ansar who collected them - put that in balance with everything else provided. It's conclusive proof.
umm *Scratches head* ok I'd like to see you back that one up.
Anyone sincerely wanting to discuss this based on their actual beliefs? :S
umm *Scratches head* ok I'd like to see you back that one up. hehe again, just for the sake of discussion, who created them? (I'm kinda losing hope in you Root, its obvious you're not here to discuss....)
Anyone sincerely wanting to discuss this based on their actual beliefs? :S
Peace Root,
"Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.
Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.
And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.
Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.
After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?" "
"Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.
Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.
And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.
Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.
After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?" "
czgibson
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Greetings hamzaa,
This is not true. Surprising as it may sound, it's not actually possible to prove your own existence. Using your senses doesn't help at all in this question, because you're making the assumption that your senses exist before using that to "prove" that the rest of you exists.
On a very similar subject, check this out - it's the famous brain in a vat thought experiment.
This is no proof of god's existence, since you start with the assumption that god exists and has created things. You look around the world and apply a particular interpretation of the origins of the objects within it, even though there is no justification for that interpretation.
Peace
This is not true. Surprising as it may sound, it's not actually possible to prove your own existence. Using your senses doesn't help at all in this question, because you're making the assumption that your senses exist before using that to "prove" that the rest of you exists.
On a very similar subject, check this out - it's the famous brain in a vat thought experiment.
This is no proof of god's existence, since you start with the assumption that god exists and has created things. You look around the world and apply a particular interpretation of the origins of the objects within it, even though there is no justification for that interpretation.
Peace
Things getting a bit off topic, lol.
My own personal opinion about that line of philosophy is that if were are 'a brain in a vat', then we have no real way to distinguish between simulated life and real life.
Thus, theres no point in doubting what we hav know way evidence or argument to even suggest one way or another - so we assume that we are real and we do exist and that we're not a 'brain in a vat'.
As a final note - what an inconsequential and pointless life it would be if you were the only person who ever really existed and you had a boring life simulated where you go to school, study and learn fake knowledge, have fake exams, earn fake money... that kind of thinking leads to suicide.
.I'm going to argue that Descartes himself, Mr. Brain in a vat experimentor, "I think therefore I am" actually logically proved the existance of a higher being (i.e. God)....be it the "scientist" playing with the brain in a vat or some other higher being
czgibson
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Greetings,
That's precisely the point of the thought experiment. You have just as much reason to believe one way or the other.
So you're making an assumption, and therefore you cannot prove that what you say is true.
Well, Descartes didn't mention the brain in a vat concept, although you're right to bring him up here because he made very similar points. His idea was that there could be a demon constantly deceiving him as to what was real, so he would have to suspend judgement on everything he possibly could in order to find out what the secure foundations for knowledge could actually be.
On his proof for the existence of god: his proof is famous for being transparent in its departure from the logic of the rest of his Discourse on Method, and it is actually discounted if you follow that logic through properly. He basically claims to have proven god's existence because he cannot doubt it, whether for personal reasons of faith or due to fear of persecution from the religious authorities. Here's an excerpt from the wikipedia entry on Discourse on Method:
Peace
That's precisely the point of the thought experiment. You have just as much reason to believe one way or the other.
So you're making an assumption, and therefore you cannot prove that what you say is true.
muslimahh said:
Well, Descartes didn't mention the brain in a vat concept, although you're right to bring him up here because he made very similar points. His idea was that there could be a demon constantly deceiving him as to what was real, so he would have to suspend judgement on everything he possibly could in order to find out what the secure foundations for knowledge could actually be.
On his proof for the existence of god: his proof is famous for being transparent in its departure from the logic of the rest of his Discourse on Method, and it is actually discounted if you follow that logic through properly. He basically claims to have proven god's existence because he cannot doubt it, whether for personal reasons of faith or due to fear of persecution from the religious authorities. Here's an excerpt from the wikipedia entry on Discourse on Method:
Peace
czgibson
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Greetings Eric,
I've explained in outline what led to me becoming an atheist on this thread:
Click me ->
I suppose your question is slightly different, though. There are many things that prevent me from believing in god, chief among them being the overwhelming lack of evidence for his existence. Following on from that, I think it's massively more likely that god is a fiction created by humans for various purposes than that an unobservable, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator being actually exists.
The famously sceptical philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked about what he would say to god after his death if it turned out that he had been wrong all along, and god actually did exist. He answer was: "I would say: God, why have you made the evidence for your existence so insufficient?" That just about sums up my position.
If god does exist, I think he's bored with us and wants to be left alone. After all, it's been a very long time since any event occurred that huge numbers of people would designate as being a miracle. Compare the situation today with the times of the Old Testament, when god was described as being like a person, with no embarrassment about making an appearance and performing miracles for all to see. Things have changed - either god isn't putting in the effort to convince people he exists, or he's been a fiction from the start and his changing characteristics are the result of the differing needs of human society. You know which of those I believe.
Peace
I've explained in outline what led to me becoming an atheist on this thread:
Click me ->
I suppose your question is slightly different, though. There are many things that prevent me from believing in god, chief among them being the overwhelming lack of evidence for his existence. Following on from that, I think it's massively more likely that god is a fiction created by humans for various purposes than that an unobservable, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator being actually exists.
The famously sceptical philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked about what he would say to god after his death if it turned out that he had been wrong all along, and god actually did exist. He answer was: "I would say: God, why have you made the evidence for your existence so insufficient?" That just about sums up my position.
If god does exist, I think he's bored with us and wants to be left alone. After all, it's been a very long time since any event occurred that huge numbers of people would designate as being a miracle. Compare the situation today with the times of the Old Testament, when god was described as being like a person, with no embarrassment about making an appearance and performing miracles for all to see. Things have changed - either god isn't putting in the effort to convince people he exists, or he's been a fiction from the start and his changing characteristics are the result of the differing needs of human society. You know which of those I believe.
Peace
interesting... The Qur'an actually mentions things around that line, saying that people will be asking a question along those lines and God will point to His Creation and many signs as proof. Things you're surrounded with and take for granted:
2:118 AND [only] those who are devoid of knowledge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a [miraculous] sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they, say, spoke those who lived before their time [97] their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.
Interesting how the Quran tackles every issue...