Proof of God

[czgibson]

Greetings,

interesting... The Qur'an actually mentions things around that line, saying that people will be asking a question along those lines and God will point to His Creation and many signs as proof. Things you're surrounded with and take for granted:

2:118 AND [only] those who are devoid of knowledge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a [miraculous] sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they, say, spoke those who lived before their time [97] their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.

Interesting how the Quran tackles every issue...

If I was writing a religious book about a god I claimed was speaking to me I'd be sure to include passages addressing the doubters. It's an obvious tactic really, isn't it?

It's interesting how the last part of the quote there uses circular reasoning:

Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.

So, only the people who are already certain about god will even realise that signs have been given to all humanity - in other words, these people believe because they believe.

Peace

 

[cool_jannah]

<BLOCKQUOTE>By AbuAmeenah Bilal Philps


<FONT face=Garamond size=4><B><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">"Why was I created? Why am I here? What am I doing in this world? Why did God create me?"

 

[muslimahh]

Greetings,


If I was writing a religious book about a god I claimed was speaking to me I'd be sure to include passages addressing the doubters. It's an obvious tactic really, isn't it?

It's interesting how the last part of the quote there uses circular reasoning:



So, only the people who are already certain about god will even realise that signs have been given to all humanity - in other words, these people believe because they believe.

Peace

czgibson

Would you like to share what else you would write in such a book? Whatever you write in such a book would not, for a fact, be as comprehensive as the Quran which deals with any issue, and many statements such as yours above have been addressed AND answered. Your argument is a weak one.

On another topic, I was wondering today, as an atheist, what is your purpose in life? What value do your actions bring you? I'm not trying to pratronize you, I honestly have no idea. In my mind it would be a horrible and futile existance...

 

[muslimahh]

So, only the people who are already certain about god will even realise that signs have been given to all humanity - in other words, these people believe because they believe.

Peace

Its actually closer to their faith is reaffirmed when they believe. Pondering and recognizing one sign leads to another and leads to another that further reaffirms you, its up to those themselves however to be open to such thoughts and begin the initial belief.

Its hard to explain in such a small post but through reading the Quran as a whole, its a lot easier to understand rather than have it explained third person styles.

 

[root]

its up to those themselves however to be open to such thoughts and begin the initial belief.

That sounds like one has to be prepared to believe, before they are ready to believe?

 

[muslimahh]

of course,

its like a student, if you're not prepared to learn and you're thrown into a classroom but mentally shut your eyes and ears are you going to learn anything? not much.

It comes within yourself first, which is why we're all accountable for whether we believe and follow God's Word or if we don't. If God Willed everyone would believe.

Here's an example from a philosophy class that demonstrates this. We were all discussing the proof of God in our tutorial, so I asked this one girl "what would cause you to believe" and she said something along the lines of a divine miracle where say a dead bird was raised to life again. Before that the class was discussion scientific factors behind other occurances and how they are nothing but scientific, not divine. I replied that with this too, should she see a bird revive from the dead, certain people would see this as a sign from God while others would just figure out another scientific explanation for it and it would not cause them to believe at all.....see somewhat what i mean?

disclaimer - i'm not denying science, rather it is the process as to how this happens through the Will of God. We often, as humans, focus on symptoms of a certain occurance and name those as the cause rather than the overall picture.

Those are my thoughts on this anyways.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings muslimahh,

Would you like to share what else you would write in such a book?

Well, I'm not a religious person or someone who claims to be a prophet, so I don't know what else I'd include. That point about addressing the doubters seems very obvious though.

Whatever you write in such a book would not, for a fact, be as comprehensive as the Quran which deals with any issue, and many statements such as yours above have been addressed AND answered.

To address your first point here, it's perfectly possible that someone could produce a book as comprehensive as the Qur'an. You can't assume it's not possible. Of course, it depends what you mean by comprehensive. Is the Encyclopedia Britannica as comprehensive as the Qur'an? I would say it is - far more so, in fact.

On the second point, can you show me where in the Qur'an that that precise statement of mine earlier was addressed and answered?

Your argument is a weak one.

You're free to think so, of course, but I respectfully disagree. I'm open to being proven wrong on this point, though.

On another topic, I was wondering today, as an atheist, what is your purpose in life? What value do your actions bring you? I'm not trying to pratronize you, I honestly have no idea. In my mind it would be a horrible and futile existance...

I think my biological purpose in life is to survive - the same as every other species. That is something I cannot determine; it has already been chosen for me simply by virtue of being alive.

Other purposes that I have given myself are to learn, to make friends, to be happy and to try and bring about happiness for others.

Do you think that without belief in god your life would be horrible and futile?

Peace

 

[root]

I think my biological purpose in life is to survive - the same as every other species. That is something I cannot determine; it has already been chosen for me simply by virtue of being alive.

Other purposes that I have given myself are to learn, to make friends, to be happy and to try and bring about happiness for others.

Do you think that without belief in god your life would be horrible and futile?

As an athiest, I would like to add to this good comment from czgibson that our purpose beyond surviving is to reproduce and pass our ancient DNA to new life so my Genes may carry on:

A new favourite saying I have adopted:

An itinerant selfish gene said:

"Bodies a-plenty I've seen you think your so clever but i'll live forever. Your just the survival machine"

 

[muslimahh]

to czgibson and root

An itinerant selfish gene said:
A new favourite saying I have adopted:

"Bodies a-plenty I've seen you think your so clever but i'll live forever. Your just the survival machine"

lol, that is pretty funny.

I guess we Muslims are giving you a run for your money or at least something to think about

Do you think that without belief in god your life would be horrible and futile?

My thoughts of a life without purpose being horrible and futile stem from back in the day before I found Islam, so for me personally they are well founded. As a Muslim now, I have purpose in every single one of my actions. A smile counts as charity, and charity, God Willing, will be rewarded. I have directions, rules to follow and an explanation as to why I was created and what will happen after that has information and logic behind it.

Had I been just created as a being to pass on my gene to others, I would be no more than an animal and, clearly, that is not the case since, and I'm assuming that you would agree, there is at least some level of difference between an animal and humans. Although we have the same eyes, ears, general morphology, there is something extra there. Logically, it doesn't make sense that such a complex and beautiful earth has been made without any higher purpose than just surviving. The world and our bodies ourselves are just too complex and interdependent to have come by chance.


As humans, we can't even firmly figure out when its going to rain, nevermind being able to make it rain, and yet we thing we have creation all figured out? I'm not convinced at all. There is, without doubt, a God up there controlling this all and creating us.

To address your first point here, it's perfectly possible that someone could produce a book as comprehensive as the Qur'an. You can't assume it's not possible. Of course, it depends what you mean by comprehensive. Is the Encyclopedia Britannica as comprehensive as the Qur'an? I would say it is - far more so, in fact.

Hmm, I'm going to definitely argue against that. Regardless, I am very interested in your thoughts on the Quran(once you have had the time to read it) as an objective reader. It is not just a book of laws and is much richer in infomation, knowledge and guidance than any encyclopedia.

If you need a link to it, you can get a shareware program of the Quran at
http://www.islamchannel.tv/downloads.aspx

I'd sincerely like to know what you two think.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

My thoughts of a life without purpose being horrible and futile stem from back in the day before I found Islam, so for me personally they are well founded.

Who says an atheist's life is without purpose?

A smile counts as charity, and charity, God Willing, will be rewarded.

That's not the only reason why you smile, surely? I'm sure that being nice to people isn't something that requires god-given rewards in order for you to do it.

I have directions, rules to follow and an explanation as to why I was created and what will happen after that has information and logic behind it.

You have an explanation - I'm just not convinced it's the right one. Each to their own.

Had I been just created as a being to pass on my gene to others, I would be no more than an animal and, clearly, that is not the case since, and I'm assuming that you would agree, there is at least some level of difference between an animal and humans. Although we have the same eyes, ears, general morphology, there is something extra there.

Right. It's difficult to put your finger on just what it is though, isn't it? I suspect dolphins might think they're different from all the other animals too.

Logically, it doesn't make sense that such a complex and beautiful earth has been made without any higher purpose than just surviving.

That the earth is complex and beautiful is a subjective judgement that you have just made, therefore you can't say this argument rests on logic.

The world and our bodies ourselves are just too complex and interdependent to have come by chance.

Who says they did? I certainly don't.

As humans, we can't even firmly figure out when its going to rain, nevermind being able to make it rain, and yet we thing we have creation all figured out? I'm not convinced at all.

Who says we do? I certainly don't.

Hmm, I'm going to definitely argue against that. Regardless, I am very interested in your thoughts on the Quran(once you have had the time to read it) as an objective reader.

I've tried several times. I've managed to read substantial sections of it, but overall I find it very repetitive and hectoring.

It is not just a book of laws and is much richer in infomation, knowledge and guidance than any encyclopedia.

I don't see how this is possible. Encyclopedias generally contain huge amounts of information comprising a large chunk of the world's knowledge at a given time. If I want to find out about quantum mechanics, Martin Luther, the Beatles, Leonardo da Vinci or the Spanish Inquisition, am I going to look in the Qur'an?

If you need a link to it, you can get a shareware program of the Quran at
http://www.islamchannel.tv/downloads.aspx

I've got two editions of it on my shelf. Thanks for the link though.

Peace

 

[root]

Of course, nothing you have said is "proof" of god. However I would like to disect your main comment if I may.

Had I been just created as a being to pass on my gene to others, I would be no more than an animal and, clearly, that is not the case since, and I'm assuming that you would agree,

I would not agree with you at all. Mankind has only spritually and emotionally developed in the last 40,000 years which is not even a nano second in evolutionary time, You & me are just animals with animal instincts too, why do you think you are scared in the woods at night?

there is at least some level of difference between an animal and humans.

In what way are we different?

Although we have the same eyes, ears, general morphology, there is something extra there.

I think you neglected to say the most important part, DNA.

Logically, it doesn't make sense that such a complex and beautiful earth has been made without any higher purpose than just surviving.

Is that not based on the "assumption" the earth was made "just for man".

The world and our bodies ourselves are just too complex and interdependent to have come by chance.

Some say this, others don't but who is right. Evolution for example requires "time", and your concept of time is in built into your brain via DNA the very same sequence of "ticking clock" DNA is found in all living life on this planet, not so different from the animails eh!

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace to you all,

I think we have to be very sympathetic towards our atheist friends, many of them are highly knowledgeable, but knowledge on its own is not a sufficient reason to believe in God. Believing on its own is not enough because we need to trust in God, if we trust in God we will be inspired to do something.

The amount of arguing between people of the same faith and different faiths is no great advert to say that a loving God exists, religions cause a huge turmoil on this Earth.

Many atheist turn towards humanist values; as a way of seeking good for mankind.

If the religions of the world could build greater interfaith friendships and work more for the overall benefit of mankind; then we would give atheists a greater incentive to believe.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith friendships

Eric

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Greetings and peace to you all,

I think we have to be very sympathetic towards our atheist friends, many of them are highly knowledgeable, but knowledge on its own is not a sufficient reason to believe in God. Believing on its own is not enough because we need to trust in God, if we trust in God we will be inspired to do something.

The amount of arguing between people of the same faith and different faiths is no great advert to say that a loving God exists, religions cause a huge turmoil on this Earth.

Many atheist turn towards humanist values; as a way of seeking good for mankind.

If the religions of the world could build greater interfaith friendships and work more for the overall benefit of mankind; then we would give atheists a greater incentive to believe.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith friendships

Eric

:bravo:

I think you've reached a profound truth there.

Peace

 

[muslimahh]

Ummm sorry I took so long to answer.



I have a good excuse, promise.



I was sitting at home and my regular computer was occupied, so I waited, and waited......and waited.



Then the funniest thing happened....




I was sitting for a while, nothing....then, all of a sudden this little metal think appeared. I started to reach for it, then poof, it got bigger. So I waited.




Later, I saw the metal thing expand and expand until it looked kind of green and spotted, kind of like a microchip.


then it grew and grew until a plastic layer formed on the outside


....and these wires developped,


....then a monitor....


and then BOOM! A working computer....TOTALLY BY CHANCE! and OUT OF NOTHING!! *GASP* and I sit here typing this post with my magically formed computer....typing away.



This is what you guys sound like by denying a creator. People would thing you're ridiculous for saying a computer came out of nothing and totally by chance and is fully functionning....I'm just waiting for my "chance" computer to create offspring who are perfectly symbiotic with the other beings in the house, relying on them for survival and yet evolving fully independently. Oh, and of couse, the computer is the same as a leaf of paper in my house because, of course, they were both created by chance.

 

[muslimahh]

Of course, nothing you have said is "proof" of god. However I would like to disect your main comment if I may.



I would not agree with you at all. Mankind has only spritually and emotionally developed in the last 40,000 years which is not even a nano second in evolutionary time, You & me are just animals with animal instincts too, why do you think you are scared in the woods at night?

Furthermore, You're saying we're nothing but animals? What stops you from procreating with your siblings? or procreating with your mother? (my apologies for my crudeness here)

Some say this, others don't but who is right. Evolution for example requires "time", and your concept of time is in built into your brain via DNA the very same sequence of "ticking clock" DNA is found in all living life on this planet, not so different from the animails eh!

and according to the theory of evolution, man evolved with other species. How then are we so morally advanced, intellectually even? And so much moreso than any animal really.

I suspect dolphins might think they're different from all the other animals too.

Of course, just like you and me, except for that they firmly know about the exitance of their Creator.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings muslimahh,

Ummm sorry I took so long to answer.

I have a good excuse, promise.

I was sitting at home and my regular computer was occupied, so I waited, and waited......and waited.

Then the funniest thing happened....

I was sitting for a while, nothing....then, all of a sudden this little metal think appeared. I started to reach for it, then poof, it got bigger. So I waited.

Later, I saw the metal thing expand and expand until it looked kind of green and spotted, kind of like a microchip.

then it grew and grew until a plastic layer formed on the outside

....and these wires developped,

....then a monitor....

and then BOOM! A working computer....TOTALLY BY CHANCE! and OUT OF NOTHING!! *GASP* and I sit here typing this post with my magically formed computer....typing away.

This is what you guys sound like by denying a creator. People would thing you're ridiculous for saying a computer came out of nothing and totally by chance and is fully functionning....I'm just waiting for my "chance" computer to create offspring who are perfectly symbiotic with the other beings in the house, relying on them for survival and yet evolving fully independently. Oh, and of couse, the computer is the same as a leaf of paper in my house because, of course, they were both created by chance.

I don't know why you think I sound like that. I don't believe the universe developed because of chance, as I thought I'd made clear. What makes you think that that is my position?

Of course, just like you and me, except for that they firmly know about the exitance of their Creator.

Now you're telling me dolphins are theists. What on earth gives you that impression? Do you have access to their thoughts?

Peace

 

[root]

Furthermore, You're saying we're nothing but animals? What stops you from procreating with your siblings? or procreating with your mother? (my apologies for my crudeness here)

What stops the majority of animals from doing this and what drives animals to do this? My friends dog would have sexual intercourse with a pillow or my leg until I boot it, Instinct I guess. For example we instinctly are sexually "put off" from people who "resemble" family members whilst we inadvertantly are more trusting towards them. Why do you think that is?

and according to the theory of evolution, man evolved with other species. How then are we so morally advanced, intellectually even? And so much moreso than any animal really.

Primates have a far bigger brain to body mass which helps and within the primates man has evolved a brain size 6 times bigger than what it should be for a typical mammal, the power of communication could and probably is the launching pad to intellect. BTW, the gene responsible for speech has been identified and is called the "FOXP2" gene which mutated ("changed") 400,000 years ago so it took 380,000 years to propogate through man before we see it's effect starting 40,000 years ago, primates and most animals have this gene but it appears that the human FOXP2 gene underwent slight changes. A "mistake" in the letters of the DNA code causes a rare disorder in humans marked by severe language and grammar difficulties.

 

[muslimahh]

Greetings muslimahh,


I don't know why you think I sound like that. I don't believe the universe developed because of chance, as I thought I'd made clear. What makes you think that that is my position?

Czgibson,

I would very much like to hear your explanation on how earth came to being not by-chance without the involvement of a God.

Now you're telling me dolphins are theists. What on earth gives you that impression? Do you have access to their thoughts?

Peace

Why not? If you said

Right. It's difficult to put your finger on just what it is though, isn't it? I suspect dolphins might think they're different from all the other animals too.

and further stated that we are no different than animals, why not? It is plausible according to your explanation.

 

[muslimahh]

Root,

Regarding animal instincts in humans, what determines where we are animal-like and non-animal like? You are arguing that humans are driven by instinct, and yet we are distinguished by animals through a process in which all living beings in the world themselves have gone through? Why only man.

Furthermore the argument around the differentiation of right and wrong among men does not stop at procreation. I invite you to explore the many behaviours that are displayed by animals regardless of species and are morally reprehensible in human beings and I challenge you to explain why this is using your own beliefs.

 

[root]

Regarding animal instincts in humans, what determines where we are animal-like and non-animal like? You are arguing that humans are driven by instinct, and yet we are distinguished by animals through a process in which all living beings in the world themselves have gone through? Why only man.

The only determination is that you are an animal or you are not.

Furthermore the argument around the differentiation of right and wrong among men does not stop at procreation. I invite you to explore the many behaviours that are displayed by animals regardless of species and are morally reprehensible in human beings and I challenge you to explain why this is using your own beliefs.

Social evolution like biological evolution is a process of time.