Actually it does relate to some of our interchanges related to the sonship of Christ, like post #8.
But surely this parable has more in conflict with Christian dogma than with Muslim beliefs. The parable tells us
there was a landowner who planted a vineyard and leased it to vinedressers
at vintage time, the landowner sent his servants continually to the vindressers to recieve its fruits but the servants were beaten and killed
then last he sends his son for the same purpose, thinking they will respect his son, but he was wrong
Christians believe that Jesus was sent to die for our sins. Yet, contrary to the notion of vicarious atonement, this passage affirms that the purpose of sending the 'son' was exactly the same as the purpose behind sending the 'servants' - the only difference was that it was hoped that the 'son' would be more respected. The purpose of sending the servants was so that the vinedressers would render to God His due and fulfill His rights over them. They were sent as messengers to request the vinedressers to fulfill their duties. And the 'son' was sent likewise as a messenger, albeit one who it was hoped would be more respected.
If the passage was a true reflection of Christian beliefs then the 'son' would have been sent with the purpose of being killed by the tenants so that he could die for their sins. In fact the passage explicitly states that the landowner intended that the son would NOT die and even expected the son to be respected, but they killed him anyway.
As for how it relates to our discussion on 'sonship', the term used again is huios which has been shown to have a metaphorical and figurative meaning in numerous passages; please see my post here: http://www.islamicboard.com/447148-post12.html
All in all, I don't think this parable provides basis for a strong argument against Muslim views, and it certainly does nothing in the way of establishing Christ's divinity. The fundamental doctrine of Christianity would seem to be devoid of support in Christ's teachings. The sincere seeker of truth must be prepared to embrace the teachings brought by all of God's Prophets and follow the pure and pristine message He has sent.
In this parable, Christ indicates that God sent prophets to Israel but the message was ignored. Islam agrees with this portion of the parable.
It certainly does.
The parable also says God sent a final messenger [to the Israelities], His Son. I think verse 44 sums it up.
"And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."
Is it not possible that the 'rejected stone' is a reference to Ishmael, and that the kingdom of God is being taken from the Israelites and given to the Ishmaelites in this parable?
I interpret being broken as acknowledging one's sin and turning to God in repentance.
I would agree that everyone should acknowledge their sin and turn to God in repentance.
Peace
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
1. God sent a series of prophets to Israel
2. These prophets were not God's Son
3. God sent a final prophet to Israel
4. The final prophet was God's Son
5. The nation that receives the Kingdom of God from Israel is the Church.
I can see why you would interpret the passage differently. It indicates Christ would be the "last of all" prophets sent to Israel, not Muhammed. Whether the word Son is metaphorical or not, it is nontheless reserved for Christ in this passage as the final prophet. As to the 'rejected stone' the Bible clearly indicates if Ishmael was rejected, it was by God, not by the vinedressers (Israel).
Ge 17:19 Then God said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year."
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
God sent his final prophet to all man kind... and stated he has no preference an Arab or European except for piety... Though Islam came upon Semitic people ... only 20% of today's Muslims are Semitic of Origin ... it truly is meant to not make a man feel better than another ... or lesser ... no distinction between blacks, whites, or yellows, man, woman or child.... I think I'd want to worship a God that doesn't discriminate and chooses a group over another....A God that has brought mercy to all man kind with details on every aspect of our lives... from work to charity to the way we treat others.......
you can see the additives and preservatives here "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year."...... by the way Prophet JOB from your bible was from the Ishmael side of the family... if the covenant were to stay with Isaac... which according to your scriptures again was the "only son" why would God put Job through the tribulations of a prophet?.........peace
Last edited by جوري; 09-01-2006 at 03:01 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
God sent his final prophet to all man kind... and stated he has no preference an Arab or European except for piety... Though Islam came upon Semitic people ... only 20% of today's Muslims are Semitic of Origin ... it truly is meant to not make a man feel better than another ... or lesser ... no distinction between blacks, whites, or yellows, man, woman or child.... I think I'd want to worship a God that doesn't discriminate and chooses a group over another....A God that has brought mercy to all man kind with details on every aspect of our lives... from work to charity to the way we treat
Christ was the final prophet, and His message was for all mankind. That is why He predicted that He would be crucified, and that His crucifixion would bring all mankind to Him. That is why His message says "whoever believes". The Gospel, or Good News, is that this message is for all mankind based upon faith.
Jn 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
you can see the additives and preservatives here "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year."...... by the way Prophet JOB from your bible was from the Ishmael side of the family... if the covenant were to stay with Isaac... which according to your scriptures again was the "only son" why would God put Job through the tribulations of a prophet?.........peace
The fact that the covenant was established through Israel does not in any way indicate God was discriminatory any more than revealing the Quran to Muhammed would indicate God is discriminatory. God picks an individual as a prophet, but the message is for all mankind. Israel was to be a nation of priests, reconciling the world to God by disseminating the message to others. The fault then lies with those who heard the message, not the messenger. The same is true of us today. I participate in our church visitation ministry to share the message with others, and we have never modified the message based on the color of a persons skin.
I found that the message about forgiveness in the Hadiths is far different than what I see in posts on this board. The Hadiths impose a behavioral forgiveness criteria. In some cases, forgiveness is based on properly emulating Muhammed's prayer posture and avoiding accidental digestive emissions. They remind me of Christs message to the Pharisees in Matthew 23.
Christ was the final prophet, and His message was for all mankind. That is why He predicted that He .
so was he a "prophet" or a "God" or a "son" of a God?.... you are certainly entitled to your beliefs... to modern day I still see churces exclusively for blacks... some for whites... congrgations for a "republican" jesus for which members with an opposing view are ousted........ it is all very interesting....
you are not well versed on Islamic affairs or literature or the way of the prophet... you see it from the perspective of someone who is immersed in his own beliefs (cognitive conservatism) to you, Jesus was the final "prophet" or God or whatever... to which you are entitled.... the rest see it very differently... and it is a bonus to be able to review things less superficially if one were to be truly convinced... peace
Last edited by جوري; 09-01-2006 at 04:36 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
you are not well versed on Islamic affairs or literature or the way of the prophet... you see it from the perspective of someone who is immersed in his own beliefs (cognitive conservatism) to you, Jesus was the final "prophet" or God or whatever... to which you are entitled.... the rest see it very differently... and it is a bonus to be able to review things less superficially if one were to be truly convinced... peace
I do not claim to be well versed in Islamic affairs. That is why I am here. Most of the postings on the site are superficial. It is difficult to go beyond the superficial when anything beyond it is considered an attack.
I don't think being immersed in ones beliefs is a bad thing, if it were then you and I share the same fault, as do most of the others on this site.
what exactly do you consider an "attack" I really believe Muslims have more reverance for Jesus than many christians... Muslims didn't use a w h o r e such as was done by caravaggio http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravagg...avaggio30.html to depict the virgin Mary........ Muslims don't make an effigy of christ or market him for sale.... No muslims write books as such http://www.amazon.com/Muslim-Jesus-L...e=UTF8&s=books
that even christians can be proud of.... please don't venture into the territory of "insults" and "attacks" because if there is one brand of attacks that has government endorsment out... it is any against Muslims or their holy book or their prophets.....
thank you
peace
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Ambrosia,
thank you for that link. Not having TV, I don't get the chance to watch such documentaries (if indeed it was a TV documentary)
That's quite a worying experiment to watch!
But what is it you are trying to say?
That Christians don't care about Muslim women??? That non-Muslims don't care about Muslim women?
Has it occured to you that it was non-Muslims making this documentary to raise the issues concerned?
I am not convinced that these are Muslims issues, and not instead issues of general lethargy amongst the population. I don't think the situation would have been different, if the victim had been somebody else representing a minority - even a nun!
And for what it's worth, yes, I have intervened in a similar situation. It wasn't a case of somebody being verbally abused in such a manner, but some teenagers laughing behind a Muslimah's back.
Please don't stereotype us all.
Peace.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
I am not sure why you deduced I am sterotyping? I was trying to assert that though Mr. Dougmusr... feels that we (Muslims) are attacking christianity, in fact it goes against our religious teachings to do so... how can we attack Jesus or Mary if they are put in highest regards in the Quran itself....I was also trying to assert that some christians do christianity more harm than any muslim and used art history's bad boy carrvaggio's "death of the virgin" painting as an example of that .... it is in fact a common practice that Muslims are sterotyped and their religion attacked conversly to christianity... there were sincere people in the video who defended the lady so how can I write something of "sterotyping" when there is clear evidence that some were disturbed by the event? moral of this story if one I am hoping to convey is one
this is comparitive religion with which we hope to establish differences between our faith and why or why not we believe so... but it is not a contest for superiority, or command on english... I think muslims here in general are reaching out trying to welcome new comers... contrast that to a republican forum I went to where there was nothing but a barrage of insults toward Islam and Muslims with total intolerance to any opinion that negated the common theme... can you imagine how disheartening that is? or how awful it is to not be able to browse the web without reading something utterly bigoted, and if you dare speak the reverse a whole gestapo comes to attack you? let's be fair please...
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Peace, Ambrosia.
I didn't mean to attack or offend you. Please forgive me, if I have done so!
I am sure we are both striving for the same thing - common ground and mutual understanding between our faiths. Let's not give up so easily!
Have not given up... you being here is half the battle.. if only more people would learn by reaching out instead of establishing hate websites about "these people who don't integrate or get along with others" ... prophet mohammed (PBUH) used to have a Jewish neighbor who would leave him excrements by his door every day.... one day he didn't and the prophet was concerned that something might have happened to him... he went to visit him to make sure he was not ill.... the man was over come by this act of kindness and became Muslim... you can verify this hadith if you want... I believe we should all live by the prophet's example not be contentious and hateful... but that would be easier if the other party didn't paint us in every sickening light imaginable day and night (I promise I don't mean you by this claim) but just turn on the TV to the ten o'clock news... I believe the way many Muslims behave in defense as a direct consequence of the negative sterotyping that is on 24/7.... you'll find an array of people in every culture and in every religion... it is just people being people... I can hope we'd be the enlightened bunch in that ocean of humanity...
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
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