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  1. #1
    Ansar Al-'Adl's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by nimrod View Post
    Ansar Al-‘Adl, Jesus refused to stone the adulteress, what do you make of that?
    And yet, if Jesus is God he also ordained many punishments in the Old Testament for blasphemy and the like. Christians believe these punishments to be divinely ordained, they just don't believe they are applicable anymore.
    Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
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    Ansar Al-'Adl's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Panatella View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    But the 'god' Jesus did, right? Did he not order that those who commit blasphemy are to be executed?
    Actually, no.
    No?? Have you not read the Bible?

    Christians believe Jesus is God; look at what Jesus says here about blasphemers:
    Leviticus 24:13-16. Then the LORD said to Moses: "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

    And about those who proselytise in the name of other gods:
    Deuteronomy 13:7-12. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.

    I believe in another thread Nicola objected to an Islamic punishment by saying more or less "What extreme vanity! Haven't these guys ever heard - sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me". Do Christians believe Jesus was also ignorant of this saying when he ordained these punishments?

    Regards
    Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Ansar Al-'Adl's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Quote Originally Posted by nimrod View Post
    Ansar Al-‘Adl, I read that thread as it was being posted, it suffered the same fault as Muslim Knight, along with many Christian arguments, proof is in the eye of the beholder.
    Sorry, which thread are you referring to?

    Ansar Al-‘Adl, what man in the Old Testament was the word “blaspheme” associated with? Where is the word “Blaspheme” used in regard to man insulting man?

    I know the argument you are trying to have here, but there is already a thread started on a different section of this site dealing with that, so I won’t side track this thread with that argument.
    If you can provide the link to the other thread, I will move my posts there to avoid derailing this thread.

    Regards
    Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Panatella's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    I am no authority on christianity, but I will give it a go. Perhaps Nicola or someone should comment if I am wrong here.
    I think the reference to 'Jesus', is God the Son in human form at the time the new covenant was being formed. The verses you have provided are from God under the old covenant. Jesus was delivering the new covenant, and under the new covenant, no, Jesus did not order this.
    I am not the best person to discuss the finer points of this with though.

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    nimrod's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Panatella, for the intents of this thread, what you have posted is correct, I would dispute a single minor point with you, but it would have no bearing on the crux of your post.

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    sorry, I just read the title, so I am not sure if this post is something that is needed... but here it is.. Nim should check it.

    John, A close desciple of Jesus, wrote that Jesus, was God, so infact that would be a blasphemous to God to.

    even many said He was the Christ, what point would He be here for if He wasn't Jesus Christ or Jesus the Christ... according to His name it is annointed Savior or the Savior annointed one... His name would be meaningless unless He came to serve a purpose unless He is, infact, the Son of God, who came here to live and die on a cross or has the scriptures say die on a tree.
    Last edited by PrIM3; 05-16-2006 at 06:30 PM.

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    Re: Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    Ansar Al-‘Adl, thanks for breaking this out into a different thread. It is a subject that needed to be broke out, in order to have some sort of thorough discourse on.

    You have raised some valid Islamic contrary points of view. I will do my best to get back to this in the next couple of days.

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Hi Panatella
    Quote Originally Posted by Panatella View Post
    I think the reference to 'Jesus', is God the Son in human form at the time the new covenant was being formed. The verses you have provided are from God under the old covenant. Jesus was delivering the new covenant, and under the new covenant, no, Jesus did not order this.
    I'm well aware of the new covenant - old covenant distinction in Christianity. But it doesn't negate the fact that Christians believe that these punishments were ordained for God and considered the law for centuries. If Christians wish to argue that Jesus ignorantly prescribed what they consider 'vanity', that is entirely up to them. But it does expose an element of hypocrisy on the part of those Christians who criticise Islamic laws against blasphemy.


    Hi Nimrod,
    Thanks, I await your response.
    Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    searchingsoul's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    Hi Panatella

    I'm well aware of the new covenant - old covenant distinction in Christianity. But it doesn't negate the fact that Christians believe that these punishments were ordained for God and considered the law for centuries. If Christians wish to argue that Jesus ignorantly prescribed what they consider 'vanity', that is entirely up to them. But it does expose an element of hypocrisy on the part of those Christians who criticise Islamic laws against blasphemy.


    Hi Nimrod,
    Thanks, I await your response.
    Why do you think the new covenant doesn't negate laws from the old covenant?

    I understand that you choose not to believe in the new covenant-old covenant distinction. Suggesting that the Christian belief of the new covenant is hypocritical doesn't make sense to me.

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    Ansar Al-'Adl's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Hio Searching Soul,
    Quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul View Post
    Why do you think the new covenant doesn't negate laws from the old covenant?
    Maybe I was unclear. I understand this distinction that Christians make but they still must accept the fact that these were laws that were ordained to be followed before the coming of Jesus.

    Regards
    Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Joe98's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
    But it does expose an element of hypocrisy on the part of those Christians who criticise Islamic laws against blasphemy.

    No, not at all.

    You Muslims believe your book is the word of God and that it must be followed without deviation. Therefore a barbaric punishment must be carried out. No deviation from the word of God is allowed.


    Christains believe the Bible is a group of stories. Many are fiction to make a point. Many were applicable to those times and people can learn from them. But any barbaric punishments are not applicable today.

    Therein lies the difference.

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    Umar001's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe98 View Post
    No, not at all.

    You Muslims believe your book is the word of God and that it must be followed without deviation. Therefore a barbaric punishment must be carried out. No deviation from the word of God is allowed.


    Christains believe the Bible is a group of stories. Many are fiction to make a point. Many were applicable to those times and people can learn from them. But any barbaric punishments are not applicable today.

    Therein lies the difference.

    well if a court for the Jewish laws of the bible were re-instated then the punishments would be applicable today.

    Your point??

    What the bro is saying is that, whether they are used now, is not the case, the fact that G-d prescribed it to people in the past shows that these rules if considered barbaric and ungodly in islam should be seen the same.

    WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE IN USE BY CHRIsTIANS.

    peace be with you

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    Joe98's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
    Your point??
    I am sorry if my grammmar is less than perfect.

    Some things written in the Bible, are ignored by today's Christains as not relevant to a modern civilised people. And therefore you cannot judge Christians by everything written there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
    …..on the part of those Christians who criticise Islamic laws against blasphemy.

    Please list for me anything written in the Koran, which is ignored by today's Muslims, as not relevant to a modern civilised people.

    -
    Last edited by Joe98; 05-19-2006 at 02:34 AM.

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    Re: Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    every single word in the quran is relevant to any generations (/era) and even to the future generation (which i think will be more modern than us).

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    Ansar Al-'Adl's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Hi Joe98,
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe98 View Post
    Some things written in the Bible, are ignored by today's Christains as not relevant to a modern civilised people. And therefore you cannot judge Christians by everything written there.

    Please list for me anything written in the Koran, which is ignored by today's Muslims, as not relevant to a modern civilised people.
    There is no such thing in the Qur'an that is outdated or uncivilized. Christians believe the Old Testament is also inspired by God, and I doubt Christians wish to believe that Jesus was uncivilized and his commands were barbaric before the New Covenant. If Christians are not practicing their religion or claim that the Old Testament laws are no longer applicable, that is up to them, but it does not negate the fact that they believe such laws were ordained by God/Jesus at some point and therefore it is hypocritical for them to criticize the Muslims on such issues.

    Since you are an atheist, I would approach the matter differently with you in explaining the penal law of Islam; please see the thread entitled "Shariah law" in the Basics of Islam section.

    Regards
    Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    When Jesus claimed to be the son of God, did he really mean it literally? Alot of the content in the Bible isnt supposed to be understood literally.

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    Re: Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by primitivefuture
    When Jesus claimed to be the son of God, did he really mean it literally? Alot of the content in the Bible isnt supposed to be understood literally.

    He made a point of being cunning and never claimed to be the Son of God. others made that claim.

    Considering you believe God a supernatural being, why is it so hard to believe God did a supernatural act? Christains believe he created the baby Jesus in Mary's womb. Ergo, Christains believe Jesus is the Son of God.


    Quote Originally Posted by primitivefuture
    Alot of the content in the Bible isnt supposed to be understood literally.
    Correct. And when you understand that you will understand Christains and the West. But the central point of Christain belief is that Christ suffered, died and was risen from the dead and then ascended into heaven.

    If that one thing did not happen there would be no Christianity.

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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
    Old Testament is also inspired by God....
    'Inspired by God" is a the correct phrase. Its not the word of God.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
    "Shariah law" in the Basics of Islam section.
    Do you have a page number as I can't seem to locate the thread.

    -

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    Ansar Al-'Adl's Avatar
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    Re: the difference between islam and christianity ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe98 View Post
    'Inspired by God" is a the correct phrase. Its not the word of God.
    I'm aware of this Christian belief.

    Do you have a page number as I can't seem to locate the thread.
    Sorry for not providing the link, here it is:
    http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html
    feel free to ask questions or raise objections in that thread.

    Regards
    Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Blasphemy Punishments in the Bible

    Bump

    Ansar Al-‘Adl, I am doing my best to get back to this.

    I am right in the middle of a kitchen addition/remodel right now. I have finished the foundation and the rough framing; time is rather limited at the moment.

    I just didn’t want your thread to drift too far back on the page list before we had a chance to discuss this topic.

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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