Sometimes you hear of people who leave their faith (be it Christianity, Islam or anything else), come to the conclusion that God is not real and become atheists.
I cannot imagne that anybody, having once believed in God, can suddenly not believe in him any more!
I can imagine that people may get angry with God, or disillusioned with other believers - but not that they can genuinely not believe in his existence any more.
My husband disagrees, and says he has read many testamonies of people who did just that - stopped believing that God was real!
What do you think?
Is it possible?
Do you know people who have done this?
Peace.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
I'm somewhat confused about this question? Why would it not be possible? Why is losing faith harder than getting faith? In general, I would say that losing faith in something is generally easier than gaining it. At least, thats how it works for people and in, say, politics.
If someone truly believes, he doesn't just consider it likely, or consider it plausible, he considers his belief a certainty, perhaps even more certain then anything else on this world. So for a worldly thing to come inbetween that is quite unlikely.
I do agree that it is more likely that someone who becomes an atheist never really believed in the first place. But I think the same goes for an atheist becoming Christian or Muslim, they are more likely to not have been true rational atheists, but rather never really thought about it much before. I'm guessing here, I don't have much experience with either.
I used to be a true rational atheist, and I constantly debated religious people, so it' s not like I was an atheist who just didn't care or failed to look into things. I just based my worldvieuw on a flawed set of reasonings.
ye but its men who commit the horrors.... and its on the day of judgement when full recompense will be paid...
i think to anyone living through the horrors of war, seeing their loved ones slaughtered before their eyes and witnessing all kinds of brutality and atrocities, the idea of recompense on the day of judgement would not be very comforting.
but as glo and the rebbe have pointed out, such experiences can either cause a person to turn away from god, or to draw closer to god.
i disagree with those here who have said that if such experiences turn a believer in to an atheist this means that their belief was not strong to begin with.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
i think to anyone living through the horrors of war, seeing their loved ones slaughtered before their eyes and witnessing all kinds of brutality and atrocities, the idea of recompense on the day of judgement would not be very comforting.
yes illusions can drive people crazy, you've got a good point snakelegs, if only there was someway to portray to those poor souls that its a test from Allah and those who pass it have something far greater waiting for them just beyond...
but as glo and the rebbe have pointed out, such experiences can either cause a person to turn away from god, or to draw closer to god.
i disagree with those here who have said that if such experiences turn a believer in to an atheist this means that their belief was not strong to begin with.
But strong believers have existed in islam, they've been punished to such extents that they were savaged/abused/tormented/had holed dug into there backs/had there arms pulled till it was dislocated etc etc but after all these horrors they wouldnt give up there faith. Theres those who have seen there children thrown into the fire and boiling oil etc etc yet they choose to remain firm in faith, there were those who were hung naked humiliated and tortured yet they choose to remain firm in there faith.
i still cant believe someone who's strongly believed can disbelieve....
sry if our views clash
-
My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
-
I don't know much about Buddhism but many of my Hindu friends believe that any suffering they receive is based on some past life time event... what are your thoughts on that do you share a similar understanding?
Similar, although not identical. Buddhists don't believe that the same individual soul or ego-entity is preserved, principally because in reality it never existed in the first place.
There is no element of suffering being "allowed" to happen in Buddhism. It is just the way things are, an inevitability until it is finally ended by Buddha-hood and the elimination of any sense of an individual ego-entity. With that, the 'selfish' desires that lead inevitably to suffering can no longer arise, because in reality there is nothing have to desires, or anything to desire.
I think those of us who feel our faith in God is unfallible, may be a little naive. A think any of us would have our breaking point, when we would question God severely!
(Witnessing and experiencing the horrors of the holocaust, or watching your family and livelihood being washed away by a tsunami, or just being worn down by the daily grind - those are just a few things)
If my family was killed, or I lost the use of my arms and legs, or civil war broke out in my country ... would I really continue to joyfully follow God, praise him for all his blessings and continue to serve him?
Here and now, sitting behind my computer, in a relatively peaceful community, with my family still safely in bed and with the full use of my limbs, I would answer a convincing yes!
But if the day came, would I still be so sure???
Let's not kid ourselves ... we all have times when we question and doubt God ... or is there aybody here who can honestly say he doesn't??
Greetings, glo
Actually, I may sound young and naive to you now, but I know that I would NOT doubt Allah (swt) even in the worst situations possible. (which for me would be like family murdered and tortured and I would witness it)
Everything happens for a reason and I believe it will come a time when I will meet my family again and see those who have hurt people being punished...
This life is unjust but Allah (swt) is just. This life was always meant to be a test and in the end, we'll all meet again to see our results...
I have faith in Allah (swt) and know eveything will be alright.
Of course I'm only human. I cannot imagine that I wouldn't be very very sad, tired and emotionally & physically weak, depressed and very afraid... But in those times the only one I'd ever really find comfort from would be Allah(swt).
Inshallah, I'm making "sense" now.
I pray to Allah (swt) that He will be merciful towards us. Ameen.
Peace
“If only I had checked myself”
—
Guy who wrecked himself
True leaders don't create followers...
.... They create new leaders.
i think to anyone living through the horrors of war, seeing their loved ones slaughtered before their eyes and witnessing all kinds of brutality and atrocities, the idea of recompense on the day of judgement would not be very comforting.
I think that if a someone know's that a person will be recompensed for the injustice that has been done to them in this world, it is a form of mercy and justice. Because the person realises that dying isn't the end, so that person who did the act of injustice - they won't get away for the crime that he/she may have commited.
Instead - they will be judged by a Greater Authority, an Authority that will judge between mankind Justly. This is fair, because the one who did the act of injustice thought that he/she had more power and authority in this world. Whereas it will be this person who will be humiliated in the hereafter.
i disagree with those here who have said that if such experiences turn a believer in to an atheist this means that their belief was not strong to begin with.
I agree with this, but i also believe that once a person let's go of their faith - they've actually let go of "the most trustworthy handhold"
Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Qur'an 2:256)
A person can only loosen his/her hand when he/she feels that they can't hold on any longer, when they feel that they have no more strength left - because they feel that they can't bear the burden.. they feel it's too much.
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: (Qur'an 23:62)
We know that this life is a test, so we will be trialled. These trials won't be more severe than what we can bear. So no-one can have the excuse to say that "i can't take it no more" - because Allaah will test a person according to their level of faith and patience.
The prophet's had the most faith in Allaah, so Allaah gave them the most severest of trials. This will carry on going down according to a person's level of patience.
The muslim's know they will be trialled:
Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?
We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.
Do those who practise evil think that they will get the better of Us? Evil is their judgment!
[Qur'an 29: 2-4]
Therefore the one's who truely enter islam whole heartedly, Allaah will make the path easy for them. Whereas those who strive to do sin, Allaah will make that path easy for them too.
But in the end, we will all be brought back to our Creator to be judged on everything that we did.
Allaah Almighty knows best.
Peace.
Last edited by - Qatada -; 09-18-2006 at 07:03 PM.
Always the faithful are tested and tempted........just remember (job) Ayoob 3lyh islaam.....
we have to prepare to be anything in life... to be doctors or engineers, teachers or taxi drivers... we have to take exams, we have to pass them we have to prove out worth and postion within our communities.... the test of life is no different really... just a much larger scale and less structured if we choose not to follow guidence... my two cents.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I have met those who were atheist, and I'd say about 80% of those had an event that changed their views on a higher power. But I've also noticed, many are just of the "I dislike organized religion, so I dislike the idea of a God". As for myself, I cannot see how someone could feel that way. But to each his own, I guess.
I have met those who were atheist, and I'd say about 80% of those had an event that changed their views on a higher power. But I've also noticed, many are just of the "I dislike organized religion, so I dislike the idea of a God". As for myself, I cannot see how someone could feel that way. But to each his own, I guess.
I agree that many non-believers judge God by the behaviour and attitude of his human followers - which clearly doesn't do God any justice!!!
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Actually, I may sound young and naive to you now, but I know that I would NOT doubt Allah (swt) even in the worst situations possible. (which for me would be like family murdered and tortured and I would witness it)
Everything happens for a reason and I believe it will come a time when I will meet my family again and see those who have hurt people being punished...
This life is unjust but Allah (swt) is just. This life was always meant to be a test and in the end, we'll all meet again to see our results...
I have faith in Allah (swt) and know eveything will be alright.
Of course I'm only human. I cannot imagine that I wouldn't be very very sad, tired and emotionally & physically weak, depressed and very afraid... But in those times the only one I'd ever really find comfort from would be Allah(swt).
Inshallah, I'm making "sense" now.
I pray to Allah (swt) that He will be merciful towards us. Ameen.
Peace
Hi Al-Zaara
I admire you for your strength of faith, and pray that God will not put it to the test!
Peace, sister
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Just my opinion. I suspect the very same factors that cause a person to have a strong belief in God(swt) are the very same factors that cause a person to become an atheist. However, they are interpreted differently.
A believer in God(swt) sees things as a manifestation of God's(swt) power. An atheist views them as the physical limitations of matter and energy.
Both views have a very strong basis for being seen as they are.
Now the problem is why would somebody who does believed in God(swt) become a non-believer? The simple answer is because it places their emotions into a comfort zone which will justify their deeds and innermost thoughts.
I would say that their concept of God(swt) became focused on the fact that by the aknowledgement of God(swt) as being all powerfull, came the realization that nobody can do any thing to earn God's(swt) love and forgiveness. If the person looses track of the fact that God(swt) does love us, and does not expect us to do anything we are not capable of, it can be much more comforting to just deny the existance of God(swt) and have no fear of the future, because there is no future, to be seen.
i am not presenting my views here. i'm not an atheist and thank god, i have never had to live through the nightmares that people all over the world are living through right this moment, while i am sitting comfortably in front of my computer. i cannot even guess how i would react if i was in their shoes. but i understood why the people i knew had become atheists after their horrific experiences.
woodrow said it well when he said that the same experience can cause people to react completely differently.
mazed - yes, i realise that muslims have gone through tremendous suffereing and remained steadfast in their faith. other people from other religions have done likewise. i just gave an example of some of the people i've known personally who became atheists in the concentration camps of WW2. as the rebbe said, many became more religious as a result of the same experience. and mazed btw, it's quite ok if our views clash, lol!
fi_sabilillah - i agree 100% with this statement:
"i also believe that once a person let's go of their faith - they've actually let go of "the most trustworthy handhold"
JMF - you wrote about those who would say: "I dislike organized religion, so I dislike the idea of a God". i just want to point out that it is perfectly possible to believe in god and not in organized religion. god and religion are not necessarily synonymous.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Some people reject God because they can find no evidence for Him, which satisfies both their hearts and minds simultaneously. Then there are others who accept God on the basis of emotional or irrational reasons, which satisfy their hearts, but leave their minds unsure. These two groups of people have never found a satisfying answer to the question of their relationship with God. Then there are yet others who have found the correct path which God intended for us: to accept Him and His message to us using our minds first and foremost, and the heart follows easily and naturally as a consequence.
Instead of searching for the answer, there are also some people who chose to simply brush the question aside and ignore it unfortunately. This is the easy way out of what appears to be a very difficult, mysterious question which may seem to have no final solution. Most of these people are unaware of a very powerful message, which completely and unequivocally establishes the correct path to God. This message squares with both the mind and the heart, and it has no equal since it comes to us straight from God Himself.
Edit
Why does God allow men and women to be hurt? There are some people who use the presence of suffering and evil in this world as grounds to lose hope and perhaps even to reject God. The limited free will and reason of human beings destroys that argument. We are responsible for what we do, and must bear the consequences - that is the liability or price of freedom. The evil that we do and suffer from is chosen by us and not by God,
"...God wills no wrong to His creation." [Qur'an 3:108]
However, God also guarantees us that aside from our own evil actions and their effects, God Himself will put us through some trials and tribulations here on earth - but the key is they will never be more than we can handle, and they may even be good for us,
"If misfortune touches you [know that] similar misfortune has touched [other] people as well; for it is by turns that We apportion unto men such days [of fortune and misfortune]: and [this] to the end that God might mark out those who have attained to faith, and choose from among you such as [with their lives] bear witness to the truth - since God does not love evildoers - and that God might render pure of all dross those who have attained to faith, and bring to nought those who deny the truth. Do you think that you could enter Paradise unless God takes cognisance of your having striven hard [in His cause], and takes cognisance of your being patient in adversity?" [Qur'an 3:140-142]
Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 09-18-2006 at 10:32 PM.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
Thank you for your kind words. And thanx for not saying I'm naive or something.
Peace, sis :rose:
Hi Al-Zaara
Yeah, I know God tests out faith daily. That's why we need to commit ourselves to him and his will daily.
I meant testing your faith to the extend of allowing terrible things to happen to your loved ones!
It may come to be God's will - but that doesn't mean it would be my wish for you.
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
what did your husband think about religion now? is he still atheits or...now he is agnostic?
25:36 And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ignorant address them, they respond with words of peace.
It may come to be God's will - but that doesn't mean it would be my wish for you.
Peace
Hi glo
Nooo... Of course you wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I understood your point.
What I wanted to say is like, everyday happenings may seem like the hardest ones for me at the moment, and that's what I meant that Allah (swt) testes me everyday.
Of course something happening to my family would be the worst possible, but I thought like if that has not happened, then all the other things may seem like the worst at the moment...
Hehe. I am confusing myself now too.
But anyways, I pray that Allah (swt) will be merciful towards you and your family too, my friend.
Peace
“If only I had checked myself”
—
Guy who wrecked himself
True leaders don't create followers...
.... They create new leaders.
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Don't get me wrong, I understood your point. 
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