I have yet to meet an individual that can prove the existence of this unseen entity that is known universally as god. My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world came to be by mere chance and probability. That is why I would to like call out to any one that can prove to me (once and for all) the existence of this so called god ( or maybe gods ……ha-ha).
P.S please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts
That's probably my biggest problem with Islam, BTW, I just can't concieve of a God who would not arrange things like that simply because He was 'denied'. It just makes no sense to me.
Its one my biggies with Christianity too. The whole idea that faith can be so important to God that he'll torture you for eternity simply for not believing in him. THe idea that faith is as important or more important than good deeds just turns me right off. I wasn't aware that this also existed in Islam. I am fairly certain it doesn't exist in Judaism.
Do you honestly think it is just for such people to go to "heaven"? I think that if a person wasn't put to justice on this earth, then maybe they should suffer for their actions in the afterlife instead.
I'm confused now. Does Islam condemn nonbelievers simply for lack of belief or rejecting belief or doesn't it?
Do you get the same twisted scenario as some (hopefully not all) Christians propose where Ghandi (a non-christian) is said to be in Hell but Hitler if he repented on his death bed would be in Heavan?
The dalai llama (is he buddhist or something similar?) has a lot of views that I completely agree with. For a religious icon he's awfully freindly to secular thought.
Do you get the same twisted scenario as some (hopefully not all) Christians propose where Ghandi (a non-christian) is said to be in Hell but Hitler if he repented on his death bed would be in Heavan?
I think the get-out clause here is that classic line:
You don't know what is possible regarding the formation of the universe and physica laws that may have governed it (as I pointed out science has already disproved numerous 'laws' formerly thought unasailable), yet you claim you do.
He don't claim to know it....the Qur'an DOES know it
Allah knows best wether they are in heaven or hell but do you know that people who commited shirk are in hell. wen to church or whatever and didn't want to believe that their is only one God?
Ok, what is shirk? Sounds like the captain of the Enterprise with a dorsal fin.
Your sense of humor dials directly to my funny bone.........
Shirk can indeed be the captain of the enterprise or your local 711 attendant..... shirk means to associate partners with G-D........ i.e. take on false deities............ a Moshrik is someone who practices taking other deities with G-D.... Christians are considered Moshriks as they pray to Jesus or through Jesus and not The one G-D of the universe......
peace
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
ishaAllah, my sista in Islam made it clear to you but again this can go on all day. let this thread rest. It's hard trying to convinced a non-muslim so we are going to have even a harder time trying to convinced a non-believer of faith so again I say make du'a for them. i know its hard to not respond because of their responses but like the saying go "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
Its one my biggies with Christianity too. The whole idea that faith can be so important to God that he'll torture you for eternity simply for not believing in him. THe idea that faith is as important or more important than good deeds just turns me right off. I wasn't aware that this also existed in Islam. I am fairly certain it doesn't exist in Judaism.
You misunderstand faith, at least the Christian definition of faith. Faith is not belief ABOUT something or someone. Faith is belief IN. That may seem like much of a difference at first look but it is huge. It is difference between gathering a bunch of information and saying I believe this and I don't believe that. (In other words, the way discussions usually go on a forum like this.) And actually entering into a living relationship with someone, something outside of one's self.
Not the best example, but a vivid one, so let me illustrate with the picture of being caught in a burning building. (I say not the best example, because I don't want to get this discussion sidetracked to talking about views of hell. It could easily be done, but that is not my point here.) So, one gets caught in a burning house, trapped on the second floor, and there is no escape out the stairs. But you have access to several windows and below each of them are people telling you to jump, they'll catch you. Do you jump? And if so, from which window, to which person? The answer to that question is entirely dependant on who you have faith in to actually catch you. As such, faith is not about knowledge (you don't actually have any way of knowing who will and who will not succeed until after you have jumped.) Faith is about trusting.
Faith, as Christians use the term, is about living in this trust relationship with God. So, it isn't about God torturing people who don't believe in him. It is about who are not living in a relationship with him, have simply removed themselves from the blessings that he can extend to one in life. Among them the life that is within him.
I think that you have rightly spoken when you said that you believe you will cease to exist at the end of your worldly life. My understanding is that the only thing that is truly eternal (that is outside of the limitations of time and space) is God. Everything else is a part of creation and bound by that which we observe regarding it, and so in the end we all die and would be no more...save if we were to belong to God. Now, I can't tell you the exact nature and means by which God would preserve us, but he will only do that with those who are connected to him.
Of course God could have created a world in which he might choose to preserve everyone and everything, but as you observe that is not the world we live in. Why? I don't know, except that I think it is not in the character of God to force people to be in a relationship with him who do not desire it. So, you have your choice -- find your life in God, or don't. And given that we are not eternal beings, to find an eternity apart from God is not possible. But if you don't find life in God, then you will suffer the opposite of life, which is death.
So, it isn't about what we know, or what we do, it isn't even really about what we believe (at least not as you have used the term above). It is all about being connected to God, living in a trust relationship with God, and finding life because of that connection. An the one word label for living in that trusting relationship with God -- Faith.
Your sense of humor dials directly to my funny bone.........
Shirk can indeed be the captain of the enterprise or your local 711 attendant..... shirk means to associate partners with G-D........ i.e. take on false deities............ a Moshrik is someone who practices taking other deities with G-D.... Christians are considered Moshriks as they pray to Jesus or through Jesus and not The one G-D of the universe......
peace
My apologies for being Off-topic, but I want to address the last thought in this post.
I understand that Muslims see Christians as being Moshirk, for Muslims perceive that Christians are not praying to the one G-D of the universe. But I think this is a misperception.
Christians would understand that in praying to or through Jesus (pbuh) they are indeed praying to that one same G-D of the universe who is Lord and creator of all that is, and was, and is to come. (Even Catholics who are misunderstood to be praying to saints are not doing that; they are simply asking for the saints to help them in their prayers.) All Christians pray only to the one and only G-d of the universe, we would never pray to one who is not G-d.
Your point of contention with Christians is not that we pray to one other than G-d, but that we view Jesus (pbuh) to be this one, same G-d of whom you speak.
My apologies for being Off-topic, but I want to address the last thought in this post.
I understand that Muslims see Christians as being Moshirk, for Muslims perceive that Christians are not praying to the one G-D of the universe. But I think this is a misperception.
Christians would understand that in praying to or through Jesus (pbuh) they are indeed praying to that one same G-D of the universe who is Lord and creator of all that is, and was, and is to come. (Even Catholics who are misunderstood to be praying to saints are not doing that; they are simply asking for the saints to help them in their prayers.) All Christians pray only to the one and only G-d of the universe, we would never pray to one who is not G-d.
Your point of contention with Christians is not that we pray to one other than G-d, but that we view Jesus (pbuh) to be this one, same G-d of whom you speak.
We speak of the one true God. We're not looking at a picture or a statue and saying that is our God. There is only one God which is the same God you believe in. Christian unfornatley associate partners with him. You don't have to go through a messenger to pray to Allah. prostrate to the one God. Worship Allah and obey his messengers
My apologies for being Off-topic, but I want to address the last thought in this post.
I understand that Muslims see Christians as being Moshirk, for Muslims perceive that Christians are not praying to the one G-D of the universe. But I think this is a misperception.
Christians would understand that in praying to or through Jesus (pbuh) they are indeed praying to that one same G-D of the universe who is Lord and creator of all that is, and was, and is to come. (Even Catholics who are misunderstood to be praying to saints are not doing that; they are simply asking for the saints to help them in their prayers.) All Christians pray only to the one and only G-d of the universe, we would never pray to one who is not G-d.
Your point of contention with Christians is not that we pray to one other than G-d, but that we view Jesus (pbuh) to be this one, same G-d of whom you speak.
I have respect for what you believe and don't want to challenge your understanding of faith as you feel fit to practice..... However the definition of shirk in Islam is to take anyone, anyone at all even if it were praying "through" and not "to" as an association of partners with G-D.... I went to catholic schools for the greater part of my life... the types of prayers used in mass are the very defintion of shirk from an Islamic perspective... just to use the term "through Jesus our lord" Amen is considered shirk......... lots of Muslims who don't understand Islam do the same when they say "ya Ali" instead of Oh G-D........
my two cents
peace!
peace!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
finally some one who understands my logic
but i can never imagine my self being more straight forward please
pace your self and give them time
I guys
peace....
Allah SWT guides who he chooses those who have been allowed to go astray noOne no combination of people can guide him/her aright and those who have been given the blessing of truth No one and NO combination of people can take that from them save with the permission and on the authority of ALLAH swt
I dont seem to understand what the problem is If you dont believe in the Existance of God Almighty thats not for anybody to dispute nor is it for anybody to proove to you
Allah Swt Says... In it ( Quran ) are signs for men (and women) of REASON the whole purpose of Life is to test US (human kind as well as jin kind) Blatanly evidence of The existance of ALLAH azzawajal is there and its up to each individual if they want to make use of that information and save themselfs for a painful torment or if they want to ignore and live in a state of darkness (of the heart and of the soul) until they die
Lets keep in mind that we will all die one day ....what happens after that how many of us can say that we know for sure that there will be nothing waiting for us after our death
There are clearly some of us that are willing to take the chance
ALLAH swt also tells us that it is from the earth that we were created and that it is to it that we shall all return
If its truly in your intention to find out if there is a god ( which i doubt) than i suggest that you do a little research you read
The answer to that question is entirely dependant on who you have faith in to actually catch you.
Distinction noted. Yet still to a non-believer, there IS nobody down there to trust in to catch you. So it isn't that the non-believer has refused or declined to trust in God, the non-believer sees no God to trust in.
Faith, as Christians use the term, is about living in this trust relationship with God. So, it isn't about God torturing people who don't believe in him. It is about who are not living in a relationship with him, have simply removed themselves from the blessings that he can extend to one in life.
I have heard of this concept before. Is the idea that Hell is nothing more than eternal separation from God, which if God is all goodness would be a terrible thing? I've heard that and it sound a heck of a lot friendlier than the mainstream christian view (the one I hear much more frequently) about hellfire and torture.
I think that you have rightly spoken when you said that you believe you will cease to exist at the end of your worldly life. My understanding is that the only thing that is truly eternal (that is outside of the limitations of time and space) is God. Everything else is a part of creation and bound by that which we observe regarding it, and so in the end we all die and would be no more...save if we were to belong to God.
That is a very nice belief system. I like it. It isn't offensive at all to those who are excluded. We're not being threatened and told that we are lesser beings, as per what we've gotten accustomed too. Yet I really don't think it is mainstream Christianity or mainstream Islam.
What faith do you practice? What denomination of Christianity is that? I like it.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 11-20-2006 at 10:39 PM.
shirk means to associate partners with G-D........ i.e. take on false deities............ a Moshrik is someone who practices taking other deities with G-D....
Thank you! I learned something today!
Now to be snarkily honest, the first thing that popped into my head as I read this was "If you value going straight to the God himself, why do you use a holy book?". Wouldn't it make more sense for God to speak directly to you and tell you what you need to know, rather than relying on text passed through a messenger? Following this trend, shouldn't introspection trump dogma?
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Truth= god does not exist? (OP)
ishaAllah, my sista in Islam made it clear to you but again this can go on all day. let this thread rest. It's hard trying to convinced a non-muslim so we are going to have even a harder time trying to convinced a non-believer of faith so again I say make du'a for them. i know its hard to not respond because of their responses but like the saying go "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
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