Edit on request of Grace seeker himself: This thread covers significantly more issue than just music which in has been sufficiently addressed over the last several month; new posters are requested to join the thread in progress on the last page, rather then just repeating what has already been stated numerous times among the many pages of this thread.
Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.
And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)
First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?
Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.
What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?
Last edited by Abdul Fattah; 07-27-2007 at 12:22 AM.
Hi
Without sounding offensive i'd just like to say that
Music is something that has a rythm and the call to prayer or reciting the quran has none but it is readf with tune.
In Islam music is regarded as something without a purpose and these sort of acts are not allowed. Allah states in the Quran 'And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…' [Luqmaan 31:6]
Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.
And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)
First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?
Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.
What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?
peace grace seeker,
there are many things that were considered allowable to previous peoples that were made prohibited, other matters were considered prohibited but islam considered them halal.
isnt jesus himself reported in your bible to rebuke the jews for their over zelousness with the sabbith to think of one example just off the top of my head of another prophet changing what appears to be established law and custom.
so previous laws and customs can be changed by the prophets of God,
also, it is possible there were previous prohibitions but that these were forgotten by the people. the old testiment forbids pious people to consume wine and yet this is allowed by most modern christians.
paul changes simular established custom and goes against jesus christ when he allows forbidden meat such as pork.
so it could be that God in his wisdom chose this time to change the ruling as he had previously, or it could be there was a previous prohibition that was forgotten by the people so needed to be brought back again.
now whirling dirvishes are innovators, they are doing something prohibited in islam because they change the religion of islam and when someone changes the religion of islam and says what they have is better they call God and his last messenger (pbuh) a liar.
Imaam Maalik, a famous imam of islam (rahimahullaah) is reported as saying - "Whosoever introduces into Islaam an innovation, which he deems is good, then he has claimed that Muhammad has betrayed (the trust of conveying) the Message. Read the saying of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic: 'This day I have completed your Religion for you, and I have perfected My favour upon you, and I am pleased with Islaam as a Religion for you.' [Surat-ul-Maa'idah: 3] So whatever was not (part of) the Religion on that day, is not (part of) the Religion on this day. And the last part of this ummah (nation) will not be rectified, except by that which its first part was rectified by."
islam is God's final revelation and message to mankind, there will be no more changes and those who say it can be changed to make it better call God a liar and as such can even reach the level of committing an disbelief by denying the Quran.
hope this helps.
peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Hi
Without sounding offensive i'd just like to say that
Music is something that has a rythm and the call to prayer or reciting the quran has none but it is readf with tune.
Also without trying to be offensive (I may have misunderstood you):
The call to prayer and reciting the Qur'an do have a rhythm. So do our voices when we speak, or our hearts when they beat. Does that make all of those things music and therefore haraam? I think not.
Also without trying to be offensive (I may have misunderstood you):
The call to prayer and reciting the Qur'an do have a rhythm. So do our voices when we speak, or our hearts when they beat. Does that make all of those things music and therefore haraam? I think not.
Peace
hmmm that's probably true
but there's something different about music (cant seem to get it in my head)
Last edited by 'Abd al-Baari; 02-13-2007 at 03:54 PM.
there are logical reasons we can give, but the truth is that the command of Allah and his messenger (saws) is enough for us,
if we convince the non muslims the Quran is the true word of God, that muhammad pbuh is the last and final messenger of God then everything else falls into place.
this is why we should bring it back to this always, we obey Allah and his messenger pbuh so we dont listen to music.
someone asks you why you cover or keep a beard, tell him or her the logical reasons but always bring it back to obedience to God and dont get lost in logic and reason.
our logic and reason is in the Quran and Sunnah, if they believe those two sources to be true then everything else follows, so dont get bogged down in 2ndary issues, always being back to obeying God through following the Quran and Sunnah.
convince them the Quran is true and all else including music follows.
Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.
And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)
First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?
Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.
What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?
One of the general rule of fiqh shariah is that everything that leads to haraam is haraam (if u read much about islaam u should know that)
Music leads to inter mingling of man and woman
e.g music leads to dancing .when u dance with a girl u should touch her and thsi also leads to zinaa/adultery which may lead to baby born without marriage and lead to....... the chain is long .I Hope my explanation is not difficult
One of the general rule of fiqh shariah is that everything that leads to haraam is haraam (if u read much about islaam u should know that)
Music leads to inter mingling of man and woman
e.g music leads to dancing .when u dance with a girl u should touch her and thsi also leads to zinaa/adultery which may lead to baby born without marriage and lead to....... the chain is long .I Hope my explanation is not difficult
Mashallah a good answer, didn't think of that one myself
there are logical reasons we can give, but the truth is that the command of Allah and his messenger (saws) is enough for us,
Of coure. It is like this with any religion. Still I appreciate very much the efforts of those who have also been willing to help me understand the nature of whatever logic may lay behind it such a command.
now whirling dirvishes are innovators, they are doing something prohibited in islam because they change the religion of islam and when someone changes the religion of islam and says what they have is better they call God and his last messenger (pbuh) a liar.
So, dervishes are not considered halaal in Islam? Should one even visit them? And what of the nasheed and sufi music?
format_quote Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy
One of the general rule of fiqh shariah is that everything that leads to haraam is haraam (if u read much about islaam u should know that)
Music leads to inter mingling of man and woman
e.g music leads to dancing .when u dance with a girl u should touch her and thsi also leads to zinaa/adultery which may lead to baby born without marriage and lead to....... the chain is long .I Hope my explanation is not difficult
I appreciate you effort in providing this answer, but it seems that it is indeed a long chain, and one may never know the results of what were intended to be innocent actions. Just as the beat of a butterfly's wings can produce a hurricane, so doing the most innocent of things could lead to haraam and by your defintiion would then itself be haraam. Eventually one reaches a result where an action may be both halal and haraam at the same time. Such a position does not seem reasonable to me.
Unless I missed it (and I easily might have) I know of nothing in the Quran that specifically speaks against music. The prohibitiions come from the hadiths, and these hadiths are not by specific declaration but by way of interpretation, while other hadiths are sometimes understood by others to declare music halaal on certain occassions: on the eid, at weddings, other celebrations.
In Bukhari, a hadith relates a connection between musical instruments and the family of David (saw). This is evidence that, indeed, the Psalms were musical in nature:
Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 568:
"Narrated Abu Musa that the Prophet said to him' "O Abu Musa! You have been given one of the musical wind-instruments of the family of David.'"
The hadith which relates of how the adhan came to be, it also tells of how the Prophet's companions suggested the use of musical instruments such as the horn or bell like the People of the Book. Now although the Prophet ultimately approved the use of the human voice, there is no mention that the Prophet chastised his companions for suggesting musical instruments for the adhan. And if the Prophet was so very much against musical instruments, then why would his companions dare to suggest the use of such sinful things in the call to prayer?
Good grief. What is the benefit in art? In literature? In poetry? Like music, all of that is part of what makes life actually worth living. I'm fascinated as to the 'bad effects' as well.. rock music I could understand but Beethoven, Mozart or Mahler? Utter nonsense, and one of the more ridiculous 'interpretations' IMHO.
What is the benefit in music? To me it is just a waste of time, and with music, most of the time there comes too many bad side effects with it.
i listen almost exclusively to qawwali (sufi music - btw, graceseeker, sufis are not approved of here). it has brought be closer to god than almost anything else. when i listen to naats i feel love for the prophet, even tho i am not muslim.
so i find all this extremely ironic.
there seems to be a tendency among some muslims to lump things in one pile. obviously, there is music that any religious person (even me) would want to avoid - it seems that rather than judge the specific music or trust in the power of discrimination, the safe path is taken and it is all thrown out.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
It twists emotions, harden the heart, distracts people from the real purpose of life, leads to things which are forbidden.
Example: a few weeks ago I was in a bad mood, and I happened to end up in the presence of a really annoying slow, sad style song... and it just made me get more emotion even though I was trying to bloke out the sound! It is like a drug in that way.
From what I understand, people use music as a part of worship. I don't understand this at all. People are trying to draw nearer to Allah using the tools of the devil, and what is it that makes them feel closer to Allah, the music or the message? Because you can listen to any kind of music and it is almost guaranteed to effect ones emotions.
closeness to God should be sought through understand and contemplating, not through music...
So, dervishes are not considered halaal in Islam? Should one even visit them? And what of the nasheed and sufi music?
Nasheeds are only allowed provided they do not contain music, and the content of the nasheed is good.
Unless I missed it (and I easily might have) I know of nothing in the Quran that specifically speaks against music. The prohibitiions come from the hadiths, and these hadiths are not by specific declaration but by way of interpretation, while other hadiths are sometimes understood by others to declare music halaal on certain occassions: on the eid, at weddings, other celebrations.
This hadith is pretty explicit:
It was reported in a saheeh hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “In my ummah there will be people who allow fornication/adultery (zina), silk, wine and musical instruments [ma’aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of a mountain, and they will have flocks of sheep. When a poor person comes in the evening to ask them for something he needs, they will say. ‘Come back to us tomorrow.’ Then during the night Allaah will destroy them by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.’”
(Reported by al-Bukhaari in al-Saheeh mu’allaqan, 51/10.)
It twists emotions, harden the heart, distracts people from the real purpose of life, leads to things which are forbidden.
Example: a few weeks ago I was in a bad mood, and I happened to end up in the presence of a really annoying slow, sad style song... and it just made me get more emotion even though I was trying to bloke out the sound! It is like a drug in that way.
From what I understand, people use music as a part of worship. I don't understand this at all. People are trying to draw nearer to Allah using the tools of the devil, and what is it that makes them feel closer to Allah, the music or the message? Because you can listen to any kind of music and it is almost guaranteed to effect ones emotions.
closeness to God should be sought through understand and contemplating, not through music...
Malaikah, I'm especially glad for your post. See, I'm not denying your experience, but I have frequently had the exact opposite experience. That is, that music has been used as a tool of God to lead me into more contemplative, deeper, and more reverant worship. When the cares and pressures of life are distracting me from thinking about God, music has helped me to focus and concentrate my attention on God. When my spirit has been depressed, music has helped me to realize that there is one bigger than me or my problems that I can turn to and in whom I can take refuge. And that is why I think that music can be, and often is a tool against the devil, and of God. That has been my experience, which is notably different from yours. Probably we shouldn't judge based upon anecdotal experience however, expect to use them to inform ourselves of the veracity of that which we are able to arrive at by reasoning.
You cite the music is a tool of the devil because it can be used to manipulate emotions. Well, certainly it can manipulate emotions, and therefore I would concur it could be used by the devil. But does that necessarily mean that all music is a tool of the devil? Cannot logic, art, love, and many other things also be used by the devil. It seems to me that the devil will attempt to, and generally is successful at, perverting all of God's good gifts for his own destructive purposes. Love gets turned to lust. Honor gets turned to pride and arrogance. Justice gets turned to revenge. Even the Quran and hadiths of the prophet are misquoted and arguments are taken out of context so as to convince the unaware to do things supposedly for Allah that are truly against Allah's will from "honor" killings to suicide bombings. Is the problem with love, honor, justice, the Quran? No, it is with how they are being used, or I should say, misused. Perhaps the same could be said of music.
Why did the Prophet (pbuh) accept the presence of music at a wedding? Though he eventually selected a man who chose to call the people to prayer with his voice, why did he not speak against the suggestion by the companions that a horn or drum be used to call the people to prayer? And why, when the call to prayer took on the form of a chant (using both tone and rythmn, the definition of what makes something music by musicologists) did he allow it?
Are the use of a chant (i.e. music) to call the people to prayer and the allowance of music at a wedding exceptions, or do they show that music is not something that the prophet was against, and it was later interpreters of the hadith which created this prohibition, not the prophet, and more importantly, not God?
I am of the belief that all things created by God are good, and it is only the perversion of those creations that is bad. I do not believe the devil is actually capable of creating anything in his own right, and can at best merely imitate that which God has already created and corrupt it. Is this what has happened with music? If it is, can music be redeemed? And perhaps by using music as the prophet has allowed, he has in fact showed us ways in which music not only can, but should be redeemed to bring glory to Allah?
It was reported in a saheeh hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “In my ummah there will be people who allow fornication/adultery (zina), silk, wine and musical instruments [ma’aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of a mountain, and they will have flocks of sheep. When a poor person comes in the evening to ask them for something he needs, they will say. ‘Come back to us tomorrow.’ Then during the night Allaah will destroy them by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.’”
(Reported by al-Bukhaari in al-Saheeh mu’allaqan, 51/10.)
I thought there was a general rule in Shariah that everything is lawful unless proven unlawful. It has been suggested by others that there is not substantional proof in the hadith you cite to prove that music is in fact unlawful. Here are some of their reasons:
Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanuti stated: "The Hadith referred to in saying that it is haram as narrated by al Bukhari is not fulfilling the requirements of the Sahih in al Bukhari's collection. 1) Al Bukhari in Hadith al Ma'azif himself narrated the Hadith to be of a broken chain of narrators in which there is a gap between al Bukhari and the second narrator, so he drops the first narrator in his chain. That is called Mu'allaq. Some scholars tried to connect the chain through other means like whan ibn Hajar did in his dissertation (connecting what is disconnected) in which he connected the Isnad of this Hadith. But still, one of the main narrators whose name is Hisham ibn Ammar as profiled in Tahthib at-Tahthib by ibn Hajar is not reliable enough for some scholars to be a source of a narration that depends on somebody like him. 2) Even when we said the Hadith is Sahih, there are questions that would emerge when we study the version of the Hadith when it says, "People will make adultery, pure silk, liquor and Ma'azif into Halal." We know that adultery is Haram by another proof and it is a unanimous Hukum. Pure silk is not of consensus Hukum. If a Muslim says Zina is Halal deliberately, then they are considered a kafir. However, if a Muslim says pure silk is not Haram, he is not a kafir. We know that liquor is Haram as it is in the Qur'an, but where do we find an authentic hadith or Qur'an to tell us that Ma'azif are Haram other than this source. The last point is to get the clear meaning of Ma'azif in arabic dictionaries because there are more than one meaning for Ma'azif. It is acceptable for a Muslim to hear somebody says Makruh but not Haram because Haram is in need of clear-cut meaning and certain narration."
In addition to what they have said, the hadith you cite does not actually give the reason the mountain fell on them. Was it just circumstances and they missed out on an important opportunity to do good? Perhaps that is the intended lesson? Or, perhaps they were punished for their laziness and lack of compassion for not putting this poor people off till another day while tending to their own needs? Perhaps the intended lesson is don't put off the good you can do today or don't neglect another's needs because you are so busy looking after your own? I notice that not all of the things mentioned that these people were engaged in are considered haraam in Islam -- having flocks of sheep is not haraam. Staying at the side of a mountain is not considered haraam. I know that fornication and adultery are considered haraam from other sources. But why link musical instruments to fornication? Why not link it to having sheep?
Maliakah, I am not actually attempting to argue with you. I'm just trying to look at this from all sides.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 02-14-2007 at 02:08 AM.
lol Grace Seeker. I can't believe we are having this discussion.
Look, to be honest, the questions you are asking are question that need to be addressed to scholars and people of knowledge, who had studied the hadith and understand it's science etc, and have come to their conclusions. The overwhelming majority of scholars agree that music is haram, so I'm sure they have their reasons.
Some of the things you mentioned don't seem to be all together relevant, such as the call to prayer- beautifying ones voice isn't considered music, especially when it is something prescribed, such as well reading Quran. The prohibition refers to actual instruments (you get people who argue that if music is haram why do birds *sing*, isn't that music- sigh, no it isn't:rolleyes.
And the example you gave of allowing music at weddings, that is not entirely true, only a special type of drum was allowed, and it is very, very different to full on music mixed with other types of instruments. And the reason it was allowed was given in one of the hadith, as showing the non-Muslims that there is some ease/'enjoyment' in our religion.
As for the uncertainty in the hadith I quoted, can you give a source for that text you provided please?
Oh, and I might add, my life is so much more beneficial with out music, alhamdulilah. It was only when I got away from it that I realise who twisted it really was.
Oh, and another thing, perhaps the reason you find music so important is because your bible isn't read in the way the Quran is? We have the Quran to listen to when we feel down, and it's effect is much purer than anything music can give. As Muslims, I guess we have something better to replace the music with.
i think we are missing out the point that music/singing without the instruments (background music) is not haram.
Actually quranic verses should be mingling inside our head...not music.
Last edited by syilla; 02-14-2007 at 02:20 AM.
25:36 And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ignorant address them, they respond with words of peace.
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