How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?

**Muslim Woman** · 03-31-2007

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

Is there any survey that showed how ignorant/knowledgeable Muslims are about Islam/Quran ? If anyone knows , pl. post it here.

I just saw a ' funny'(??) or pathetic survey about Americans on religion /holy books. U may visit the links to read the full report.

few funny lines: More than 10 percent think that Noah's wife was Joan of Arc. Only half can name even one of the four Gospels, and -- a finding that will surprise many -- evangelical Christians are only slightly more knowledgeable than their non-evangelical counterparts.

Widespread Ignorance About Religion Among Americans

USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/ 2007-03-07-teaching-religion-cover_N.htm

Sometimes dumb sounds cute: Sixty percent of Americans can't name five of the Ten Commandments, and 50 percent of high school seniors think Sodom and Gomorrah were married.

Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University, isn't laughing. Americans' deep ignorance of world religions — their own, their neighbors' or the combatants in Iraq, Darfur or Kashmir — is dangerous, he says.

His new book, Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know — and Doesn't, argues that everyone needs to grasp Bible basics, as well as the core beliefs, stories, symbols and heroes of other faiths...

New Book Examines American Ignorance About Religion
The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/article/2007/03/01/AR2007030102073.html

The United States is the most religious nation in the developed world if religiosity is measured by belief in all things supernatural, from God and the Virgin Birth to the humbler workings of angels and demons.

Americans are also the most religiously ignorant people in the Western world. Fewer than half of us can identify Genesis as the first book of the Bible, and only one-third know that Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount.

These are just two of the depressing statistics in Stephen Prothero's provocative and timely Religious Literacy.

Americans get an 'F' in religion

TEST YOUR RELIGIOUS LITERACY

DIRECTIONS: Scroll over the question to see the answer. Tally your points and multiply by two to get your score out of 100.

1 point each: Name the Four Gospels.

MORE 1 POINT EACH

Answer: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

Close X

1 point: Name a sacred text of Hinduism

MORE 1 POINT
Answer: Vedas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads, Puranas, Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana, Yoga Sutras, Laws of Manu, or Kama Sutra

Close X

1 point: What is the name of the holy book of Islam?
MORE 1 POINT
Answer: Quran

Close X

1 point: Where according to the Bible was Jesus born?

1 point: President George W. Bush spoke in his first inaugural address of the Jericho road. What Bible story was he invoking?

1 point each: What are the first five books of the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Old Testament?
1 point: What is the Golden Rule?

2 points: "God helps those who help themselves." Is this in the Bible? If so, where?

2 points: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God." Does this appear in the Bible?

10 points: Name the Ten Commandments.

4 points: Name the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism.

7 points: What are the Seven Sacraments of Catholicism?

1 point each: The First Amendment says two things about religion, each in its own "clause." What are its two religion clauses?

2 points: What is Ramadan? In what religion is it celebrated?

7 points: Match the Bible characters with the stories in which they appear. Some characters may be matched with more than one story or vice versa.

CHARACTERS: Adam and Eve, Noah, Paul, Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Serpent. STORIES: Exodus, Binding of Isaac, Olive Branch, Garden of Eden, Parting of the Red Sea, Road to Damascus, Garden of Gethsemane

MORE 7 POINTS

Answer: Adam and Eve + Garden of Eden; Serpent + Garden of Eden; Abraham + Binding of Isaac; Moses + Exodus or Parting of the Red Sea; Noah + Olive Branch; Jesus + Garden of Gethsemane; Paul + Road to Damascus

Close X
SOURCE: 'Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know' by Stephen Prothero, published by HarperSanFrancisco, March 2007.

**Woodrow** · 04-30-2007

In addition to my statement above. Since many of our Members do not read English as their primary Language any Bible obtained in their own language will differ considerably from the English.

For example:

The First two lines of Genesis from the Arabic KJV Red letter version will read as:

1 في البدء خلق الله السموات والارض.
2 وكانت الارض خربة وخالية وعلى وجه الغمر ظلمة وروح الله يرف على وجه المياه.

The Arabic meaning of this translated back into English would be:

I start Allah created the heavens and the earth. 2 The land was in ruins and free immersion and in the bleak and the spirit of Allah blink in the water.

The KJV in English Reads:

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

Different connotations will develop as a result of reading in different languages.

NOTE: I was busy writing my post and Grace Seeker got his post in before I finished. My post was not and is not intended to be a reply to his post.

**Hemoo** · 05-08-2007

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

I don't think so . To get guidance , we will read Quran , for comparison purposes , I believe Muslims should read Torah , Bible , Hindus holy books .

So , after studying the Quran , i support Muslims reading other holy books.

P.S. it's not a fatwa......my personal opinion.

here is the right Fatwa in this matter :
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22029&ln=eng

and the full text :

Ruling on reading the books of Ahl al-Kitaab and debating with them on the internet

Question:

My worry is the propogation of false notions about quran by some christians through internet.i even sent a mail to the so called muslim to christians about their fabricated stories.i want to know what should be our response regarding alkexander the great whom they say according to history died young at 33 and in koran it states that he died at a ripe old age.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permissible to read the specious arguments that the Christians propagate on the internet or via other media, or to engage with them in religious disputes and debates, except for those who are qualified to do so, who have proof and evidence and who know how to present arguments. A number of scholars have stated that it is haraam to look at any of the books of the People of the Book, except for those who have deep knowledge, because we are commanded neither to believe nor disbelieve what they tell us about stories that are not present in our religion. There is no guarantee that the ordinary person who has no knowledge will not end up believing in falsehood and rejecting the truth. Moreover, man is weak and specious arguments may take root in the heart and it may be difficult to get rid of them. The following fatwa was issued by the Standing Committee:
“A great deal of distortion, addition and subtraction has befallen the previous divinely-revealed scriptures, as Allaah has stated, so it is not permissible for a Muslim to read them and study them, unless he is one who has deep knowledge and is seeking to explain the distortions and contradictions therein.” (3/311).
So whatever Christian books have come to you, you must hasten to get rid of them.
With regard to what you say about Alexander the Great, this is a specious argument which is indicative of the stupidity and ignorance of the Christians. We may respond to that from several angles, as follows:
1 – There is no mention in the Qur’aan of how long Dhu’l-Qarnayn (Alexander) lived, or of the era in which he lived.
2 – Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is not Alexander the Macedonian or Greek who built Alexandria. This Alexander is the one who died at the age of 33, as mentioned in the Christian books. He lived 323 years before the birth of the Messiah (peace be upon him).
Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan lived at the time of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and it is said that he became Muslim at the hands of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and he went on pilgrimage to the Ka’bah walking. The scholars differed concerning him, as to whether he was a Prophet or a righteous slave and just king, but they agree that he was a Muslim, a monotheist (believer in Tawheed) and one who was obedient to Allaah.

The correct view is to refrain from stating what he was, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I do not know whether Tubba’ was a Prophet or not, and I do not know whether Dhu’l-Qarnayn was a Prophet or not.”

(Narrated by al-Haakim and al-Bayhaqi; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5524).
3 – The difference between this righteous slave, and the Macedonian Alexander who was a kaafir, is well known to Muslim scholars. Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Badaayah wa’l-Nahaayah (1/493):
“It was narrated that Qutaadah said: Alexander was Dhu’l-Qarnayn and his father was the first of the Caesars, and he was one of the descendants of Saam ibn Nooh (Shem the son of Noah). As for Dhu’l-Qarnayn, he was Alexander son of Philip… ibn Roomi ibn al-Asfar ibn Yaqaz ibn al-‘Ees ibn Ishaaq ibn Ibraaheem al-Khaleel. This is the genealogy of him given by al-Haafiz ibn ‘Asaakir in his Taareekh. (He is known as) the Macedonian, the Greek, the Egyptian, builder of Alexandria, on the events of whose life the Greeks based their calendar. He came much later than the first Alexander. This was approximately three hundred years before the Messiah. The philosopher Aristotle was his minister and he is the one who killed Daar ibn Daar (Darius) and humiliated the kings of Persia and invaded their land.
We have drawn attention to him because many people think that they are one and the same and that the one who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is the one whose minister was Aristotle, which has resulted in a lot of mistakes and far-reaching corruption. The former was a righteous believing slave and a just king, and the latter was a mushrik and his minister was a philosopher. There were more than two thousand years between the two, so what comparison can there be between them? They are not alike at all and they have nothing in common, except in the mind of a fool who does not know anything.”
4 – The Christians have no information in their holy book about the second Alexander, let alone the first. All they have is the story of the visions of Daniel, which they claim refer to the rule of this infidel Alexander, and the division of his kingdom after his death.
5 – If we assume that there is a difference between what the Qur’aan says and what their book says about a person or an event, why should that be regarded as strange? There are many such differences, especially in the stories of the Prophets such as Ibraaheem (Abraham), Nooh (Noah), Loot (Lot), Moosa (Moses), Dawood (David) and ‘Eesa (Jesus) (peace be upon them). The Christians have no reliable and continuous chain of narration for this book in which they believe, and they know nothing about those who translated it. Moreover it contains dozens of contradictions which effectively nullify any claim to infallibility or to have been written with inspiration from the Holy Spirit. It is sufficient to note the contradictions in the genealogy of Jesus (peace be upon him)!
So how can we take what is in these distorted books as a standard by which to judge the Holy Qur’aan which is preserved by Allaah?!
And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

**Redeemed** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by Woodrow

Naturally as Muslims we are much more knowledgeable in the Qur'an, than most Christians are in the Bible. The majority of us will read the Qur'an at least once a month. I believe most of us read at least one Juz a day, so in 30 days we have read the entire Qur'an and we read it 12 times a year. Even those of us who are too buzy to read a Juz a day will read 1 or 2 Surahs each day. We all recite at least one surah (al-Fatihah) 5 times a day. The Qur'an is a much more important part of our daily worship, then the Bible is for Christian Worship.

I would also say that more Muslims are knowledgeable in the Bible than the number of Christians. Several reasons for me to say that, because we are commanded to read and learn, many Muslims have read the Bible several times. Here in the US I would say that most Muslims do have at least one Bible in their home and many have several versions. One reason is because we know that at various times we will be appraoched by Evangelicals and we choose to understand what they are talking about. Also many Muslims in the US are reverts and have had exposure to the Bible. I would say that a Christian with good knowledge of the Bible is more likely to revert, than a person with little knowledge. Often You will hear Christian reverts say they met Jesus(as) in the Bible, but did not know or really Love him the way he should be loved, until they came to Islam. Many Muslim reverts will say that they are more of a true Christian in Islam than they were in Christianity.

Many reverts from Christianity were very devout Christians at one time, many were Evangelicals or ministers. But many of them will say that they never really understood the Bible until they accepted Islam.

So I would say more Muslims, have knowledge of the Bible than the number of Christians do. At least for here in the US.

Trust me them reverts you are talking about are the ones who don't study the Bible. They are the ones that know about Christ, but they don't know Him. When someone has a relationship (not religion) with Christ, they would never revert, but I wouldn't dare say that about any other religion reverting to being a follower of Christ.

**Redeemed** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by hemoo

here is the right Fatwa in this matter :
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22029&ln=eng

and the full text :

Ruling on reading the books of Ahl al-Kitaab and debating with them on the internet

Question:

My worry is the propogation of false notions about quran by some christians through internet.i even sent a mail to the so called muslim to christians about their fabricated stories.i want to know what should be our response regarding alkexander the great whom they say according to history died young at 33 and in koran it states that he died at a ripe old age.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permissible to read the specious arguments that the Christians propagate on the internet or via other media, or to engage with them in religious disputes and debates, except for those who are qualified to do so, who have proof and evidence and who know how to present arguments. A number of scholars have stated that it is haraam to look at any of the books of the People of the Book, except for those who have deep knowledge, because we are commanded neither to believe nor disbelieve what they tell us about stories that are not present in our religion. There is no guarantee that the ordinary person who has no knowledge will not end up believing in falsehood and rejecting the truth. Moreover, man is weak and specious arguments may take root in the heart and it may be difficult to get rid of them. The following fatwa was issued by the Standing Committee:
“A great deal of distortion, addition and subtraction has befallen the previous divinely-revealed scriptures, as Allaah has stated, so it is not permissible for a Muslim to read them and study them, unless he is one who has deep knowledge and is seeking to explain the distortions and contradictions therein.” (3/311).
So whatever Christian books have come to you, you must hasten to get rid of them.
With regard to what you say about Alexander the Great, this is a specious argument which is indicative of the stupidity and ignorance of the Christians. We may respond to that from several angles, as follows:
1 – There is no mention in the Qur’aan of how long Dhu’l-Qarnayn (Alexander) lived, or of the era in which he lived.
2 – Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is not Alexander the Macedonian or Greek who built Alexandria. This Alexander is the one who died at the age of 33, as mentioned in the Christian books. He lived 323 years before the birth of the Messiah (peace be upon him).
Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan lived at the time of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and it is said that he became Muslim at the hands of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and he went on pilgrimage to the Ka’bah walking. The scholars differed concerning him, as to whether he was a Prophet or a righteous slave and just king, but they agree that he was a Muslim, a monotheist (believer in Tawheed) and one who was obedient to Allaah.

The correct view is to refrain from stating what he was, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I do not know whether Tubba’ was a Prophet or not, and I do not know whether Dhu’l-Qarnayn was a Prophet or not.”

(Narrated by al-Haakim and al-Bayhaqi; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5524).
3 – The difference between this righteous slave, and the Macedonian Alexander who was a kaafir, is well known to Muslim scholars. Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Badaayah wa’l-Nahaayah (1/493):
“It was narrated that Qutaadah said: Alexander was Dhu’l-Qarnayn and his father was the first of the Caesars, and he was one of the descendants of Saam ibn Nooh (Shem the son of Noah). As for Dhu’l-Qarnayn, he was Alexander son of Philip… ibn Roomi ibn al-Asfar ibn Yaqaz ibn al-‘Ees ibn Ishaaq ibn Ibraaheem al-Khaleel. This is the genealogy of him given by al-Haafiz ibn ‘Asaakir in his Taareekh. (He is known as) the Macedonian, the Greek, the Egyptian, builder of Alexandria, on the events of whose life the Greeks based their calendar. He came much later than the first Alexander. This was approximately three hundred years before the Messiah. The philosopher Aristotle was his minister and he is the one who killed Daar ibn Daar (Darius) and humiliated the kings of Persia and invaded their land.
We have drawn attention to him because many people think that they are one and the same and that the one who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is the one whose minister was Aristotle, which has resulted in a lot of mistakes and far-reaching corruption. The former was a righteous believing slave and a just king, and the latter was a mushrik and his minister was a philosopher. There were more than two thousand years between the two, so what comparison can there be between them? They are not alike at all and they have nothing in common, except in the mind of a fool who does not know anything.”
4 – The Christians have no information in their holy book about the second Alexander, let alone the first. All they have is the story of the visions of Daniel, which they claim refer to the rule of this infidel Alexander, and the division of his kingdom after his death.
5 – If we assume that there is a difference between what the Qur’aan says and what their book says about a person or an event, why should that be regarded as strange? There are many such differences, especially in the stories of the Prophets such as Ibraaheem (Abraham), Nooh (Noah), Loot (Lot), Moosa (Moses), Dawood (David) and ‘Eesa (Jesus) (peace be upon them). The Christians have no reliable and continuous chain of narration for this book in which they believe, and they know nothing about those who translated it. Moreover it contains dozens of contradictions which effectively nullify any claim to infallibility or to have been written with inspiration from the Holy Spirit. It is sufficient to note the contradictions in the genealogy of Jesus (peace be upon him)!
So how can we take what is in these distorted books as a standard by which to judge the Holy Qur’aan which is preserved by Allaah?!
And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

I appreciate your zeal, but it is not according to knowledge, and you shouldn't swear. God does not delight in that. Jesus is the one that said let your yes be just that (Yes) and your no be no anything more than that comes from evil.

**Philosopher** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Trust me them reverts you are talking about are the ones who don't study the Bible. They are the ones that know about Christ, but they don't know Him. When someone has a relationship (not religion) with Christ, they would never revert, but I wouldn't dare say that about any other religion reverting to being a follower of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker

That's just two that came up in mind instantly.

**Philosopher** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by alapiana1

I appreciate your zeal, but it is not according to knowledge, and you shouldn't swear. God does not delight in that. Jesus is the one that said let your yes be just that (Yes) and your no be no anything more than that comes from evil.

Unless you can prove how the Trinity is in tune with logic, I dont think it's fair to take your view on religion seriously.

**Woodrow** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Trust me them reverts you are talking about are the ones who don't study the Bible. They are the ones that know about Christ, but they don't know Him. When someone has a relationship (not religion) with Christ, they would never revert, but I wouldn't dare say that about any other religion reverting to being a follower of Christ.

I can understand your feeling like that. I can remember a time when I also felt like that and said very similar words either to or about people who left Christianity.

I do not love Christ(as) any less than I did as a Christian, I firmly believe it was the love of Christ(as) that helped lead me to Islam. As a Muslim I learned to love Christ(as) even more and learned to worship God(swt).

A true follower of Christ(as) and a True Christian worships God(as) alone and has no need for misconceptions.

**Redeemed** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by Philosopher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker

That's just two that came up in mind instantly.

That is pretty impressive to say the least. It really blows my mind in a way, but not totally, because I sincerely believe that is possible to be a preacher and teacher of the Scriptures and not know the Lord. Look at those Jewish leaders during the time of Christ they were zealots who were a chosen people by God and didn't even know Him. People will one day say like Jesus said people will one day do: “But Lord didn't we do many great things in your name and He will respond, "I never knew you depart from ME."
It is written, “To know Him is to have eternal life” He that has the Son has life; He that has not the Son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on Him!!!!”

**Redeemed** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by Woodrow

I can understand your feeling like that. I can remember a time when I also felt like that and said very similar words either to or about people who left Christianity.

I do not love Christ(as) any less than I did as a Christian, I firmly believe it was the love of Christ(as) that helped lead me to Islam. As a Muslim I learned to love Christ(as) even more and learned to worship God(swt).

A true follower of Christ(as) and a True Christian worships God(as) alone and has no need for misconceptions.

I can't gainsay your testimony, but I can tell you that you never knew Him the way I do now, and you don't know Him the way I do! We know two different Jesus' bro.
Peace

**Redeemed** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by Philosopher

Unless you can prove how the Trinity is in tune with logic, I dont think it's fair to take your view on religion seriously.

OK, I have mentioned this in another thread, but it fits your statement.
It is not in tune with logic -- I'll give you that!!

BUT

I believe that God is a Spirit; in fact, the Bible says that He is and that those who worship Him must do it in spirit and in truth. I, however, have no problem believing that God can inhabit a human person or be in more that more place at a single moment in time. We do not limit what God can do using logic. We do not look at God as if He is limited to the confines of time and space, as we know it. I have no problem believing that God's word could be made flesh, nor do I have a problem seeing God as all wise, merciful and Holy. Since He is Holy and a Spirit, I have no problem as seeing Him as the Holy Spirit and yet the same one true God. To try to understand the essence of God in terms of human dimensions only leads to horrible heresies of which Muslims think us guilty of. I look at Jesus who was the only prophet (Son of Man) to be sinless and conceived of a virgin (Son of Mary). That alone should be a sign and I hint as to the true nature of Jesus Christ. Since He did not have an earthly father, it only confirms that through the prophets and even Jesus Himself the Bible speaks absolute truth as His Father being God. It is written in the Scriptures, "He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son, as not life, but the wrath of God abides on him." I do not want the wrath of God abiding on me. I would have to be spiritually dead to believe that He is not who He says. The Bible is the inerrant word of God to the true believers and follows of Christ there are no mistakes in it pertaining to who Jesus really is.

**Hemoo** · 05-10-2007

alapiana1

look to this verse in your book, it is really obvious that it says that there is only one God and Jesus is a messenger sent by God:

In the new testament in John it says that jesus said :

017:003 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

and another verse states that the knowledge of jesus is not like the knowledge of God and this means that they are not the same person.

In the new testament in Mark it says that jesus said :

013:032 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

another translation :

(OF the Day none knows, no man, no Son but the Father.)

you know that the arabic language is similar to the aramia and hebrew because those languages has similar origins.

in arabic we say that Allah is the "RAB" means the lord but sometimes we also say for the father in a family he is the "RAB" of the Family because he is the one who get the money and food and clothes, etc

so it seems that the original meaning of the bible was lost in translation.

i hope you get what i mean.

After EDIT:

in the NT in Luke:

018:018 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

018:019 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

so this means that jesus is not GOD, the verses clearly shows that they are not the same person.

**Grace Seeker** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by hemoo

alapiana1

look to this verse in your book, it is really obvious that it says that there is only one God and Jesus is a messenger sent by God:

OK, the verse you are referencing is:

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

If I may, I would like to comment on this verse a little bit.

First, the least important part, it says that Jesus Christ is sent by God. It doesn't say that he was sent as a messenger. Indeed, given that the title Christ is used, it is more likely to a reference to Jesus being sent as the Messiah. Messiah is one anointed by God for a special purpose. What special purpose was Jesus anointed by God for. He tells us himself:

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. (Luke 19:10)

Now the phrase "Son of Man" is also a title for the Messiah, so this explanation fits the question as to what purpose Christ came. He came not as a messenger, but as a Savior.

Second, in saying that eternal life is in knowing God and Jesus Christ, given that we have a single verb and a compound object, then the knowing must be applied to both God and to Jesus Christ in the same way.

The Greek word, "to know", used in this instance is ginosko. Now knowledge of God in scripture is always linked with self-revelation. And the special way that John (the author of the verse you quoted0 used the term was to express a personal relationship between the knower and the one known. So, in this prayer, Jesus is praying that those he is praying for would know both him and God in a personal way, one that involved a continuous relationship. Now, since this prayer was specifically prayed not just for Jesus' disciples, but those who would come to believe as they did (after Jesus was gone), how could Jesus expect these people who would never meet him to have this personal relationship with them unless he was going to still be around in some sort of way that they could have a real relationship with him. For this is not just to know information about Jesus. It is to be knowledge gained through personal contact and fellowship. That can only happen if still today Christ's new disciples can have the same sort of connection with him that his first disciples did. That means that Jesus must not only still be alive in heaven, but that he must still be in fellowship with his followers on earth. Now unless Jesus is God, the only way that we could still be in fellowship with Jesus in the same way that we are in fellowship with and know God would be if Jesus was a partner with God. Now, that obviously is not something that either Muslims nor Christians believe. Thus the only option left for us is for us to accept the belief that God and Jesus are one in the same. Then knowing Jesus would be knowing God and vice versa, and eliminating the problem presented by the verse as you originally presented it.

**Muslim Woman** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by Philosopher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker

That's just two that came up in mind instantly.

there are lots ...let me know if u want more

Biography Of Professor David Benjamin Keldani, B.D. (died 1940c) Former Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean

......And in 1904 he was sent by the British and Foreign Unitarian Association to carry on an educational and enlightening work among his country people.

On his way to Persia he visited Constantinople; and after several interviews with the Sheikhu 'I-Islam Jemalu 'd-Din Effendi and other Ulemas, he embraced the Holy Religion of Islam, meaning submission to God

http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/bio_keldani.html

**Umar001** · 05-10-2007

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

I have done this experiment online, with people who claim to be southern baptists even, and have found them lacking in ther knowledge of their own holy book. They know the gospels, some highlights from the OT (like noah and adam and eve and job) and they know parts of revelations. They often don't know much else.

That's the key message though, the story is clear whoever goes on the chat room or lives in a well populated christian area knows it.

Adam and Eve Sinned, God cursed them, he saved Noah and destroyed the sinners, (I dont know what Job has to do with it, I hardly hear it mentioned by them) but OT highlights include: The Bronze Serpent that Moses Lifted was a prediction of Jesus, or, al the blood sacrafises and lambs of God, or Psalms or Isaiah, and then finishing with the Gospels, although they probably quote paul from the begging 'The wages of sin is death' and 'for as sin entered through one man..'

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

nope. i believe that Muslims are actually told to read the Injeel.

Serious? Where?

News Flash:

I can save yall time in reading the Bible, if yall read the KJV then I think that there are about 37 duplicate verses in II Kings 19 and Isaiah 37.

2 Kings 19

1 When King Hezekiah heard this, he tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and went into the temple of the LORD.

Isaiah 37

1 When King Hezekiah heard this, he tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and went into the temple of the LORD.

2 Kings 19

2 He sent Eliakim the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary and the leading priests, all wearing sackcloth, to the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz.

Isaiah 37

2 He sent Eliakim the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary, and the leading priests, all wearing sackcloth, to the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz.

2 Kings 19

3 They told him, "This is what Hezekiah says: This day is a day of distress and rebuke and disgrace, as when children come to the point of birth and there is no strength to deliver them.

Isaiah 37

3 They told him, "This is what Hezekiah says: This day is a day of distress and rebuke and disgrace, as when children come to the point of birth and there is no strength to deliver them.

And so forth.

**Redeemed** · 05-11-2007

Originally Posted by hemoo

alapiana1

look to this verse in your book, it is really obvious that it says that there is only one God and Jesus is a messenger sent by God:

In the new testament in John it says that jesus said :

017:003 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

and another verse states that the knowledge of jesus is not like the knowledge of God and this means that they are not the same person.

In the new testament in Mark it says that jesus said :

013:032 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

another translation :

(OF the Day none knows, no man, no Son but the Father.)

you know that the arabic language is similar to the aramia and hebrew because those languages has similar origins.

in arabic we say that Allah is the "RAB" means the lord but sometimes we also say for the father in a family he is the "RAB" of the Family because he is the one who get the money and food and clothes, etc

so it seems that the original meaning of the bible was lost in translation.

i hope you get what i mean.

OK, You'll get no argument from me about there being one God!

**thirdwatch512** · 05-20-2007

Originally Posted by Serdar

"you dont think so"? what if someone converts to christianity?

Any bible pages on interneT (the holy bible)?

biblegateway.com is my favorite. or you can download e-Sword.. with e-Sword, you can customize it to show maps, have commentary, you can highlight, and download dozens of different versions, and in different languages.

as for if someone converts to Christianity.. many people leave islam! that's life. many people leave and join different religions all the time.

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Trust me them reverts you are talking about are the ones who don't study the Bible. They are the ones that know about Christ, but they don't know Him. When someone has a relationship (not religion) with Christ, they would never revert, but I wouldn't dare say that about any other religion reverting to being a follower of Christ.

i can agree with that 100%. any time i watch on youtube a story of a convert to islam, the vast majority of them say that they never were reluigious, or they never took their faith seriously.

Originally Posted by Philosopher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker

That's just two that came up in mind instantly.

you know, there are some people who seemed devout, and who left Christianity. but there are also many former devout muslims that are Christians! Zakariah Boutous is one of them i can name off my back!

plus, the Bible addresses this..
Mark 13:22-23 - 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

Mat 24:24 False messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will work spectacular, miraculous signs and do wonderful things to deceive, if possible, even those whom God has chosen.

Originally Posted by Philosopher

Unless you can prove how the Trinity is in tune with logic, I dont think it's fair to take your view on religion seriously.

here you go with the trinity rant again.. ugh..

**Grace Seeker** · 05-20-2007

Originally Posted by Philosopher

Unless you can prove how the Trinity is in tune with logic, I dont think it's fair to take your view on religion seriously.

To describe something that one observes is neither an attempt at logic or illogic. So the Trinity is not something that one proves anymore than one proves a sunset. One observes it. One describes what one sees. If you are standing on the other side of the earth and observe a sunrise and argue that it can't possibly be a sunset, well then that's your problem. I can't prove it to you, and can only describe what I observe. And I observe that God, though just one divine being, has indeed revealed himself in three persons. I can't explain how it works, I certainly can't prove it to one who doesn't even believe in the existence of God to begin with, but I can testify that this is what I have experienced to be true. Believe or don't believe me, that is your problem. My job is to testify to what I have observed and experienced, not to convince you or anyone else.

**Redeemed** · 05-20-2007

The way I see it though is Jesus was born of a virgin not the prophet Muhammad; furthermore, Jesus died for my and your sin not Muhammad. It is explicitly stated by the spirit of God that some will depart from the faith and be deceived by lying spirits to abstain from eating certain things. I can infer that that would be Christians turning to other religions. The thing that I find annoying is that Muslims keep saying we Christians worship three Gods. I will not have to explain to God that I believe He is three, because I believe He is ONE. It is you who say I believe He is three not me. But if the gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (II Corn. 4) Jesus did die and rise again. To believe other than that is to believe a lie. Jesus is not an angel. He is exactly who He says He is (The I am). You don’t know if your saved, but I know that I am. The Jesus Muslims honor is not the same Jesus of the Bible. May you see Has God sees. I pray you do for a short time.

**Sunnih** · 05-20-2007

Originally Posted by alapiana1

The way I see it though is Jesus was born of a virgin not the prophet Muhammad; furthermore, Jesus died for my and your sin not Muhammad. It is explicitly stated by the spirit of God that some will depart from the faith and be deceived by lying spirits to abstain from eating certain things. I can infer that that would be Christians turning to other religions. The thing that I find annoying is that Muslims keep saying we Christians worship three Gods. I will not have to explain to God that I believe He is three, because I believe He is ONE. It is you who say I believe He is three not me. But if the gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (II Corn. 4) Jesus did die and rise again. To believe other than that is to believe a lie. Jesus is not an angel. He is exactly who He says He is (The I am). You don’t know if your saved, but I know that I am. The Jesus Muslims honor is not the same Jesus of the Bible. May you see Has God sees. I pray you do for a short time.

This is your belief and of course you are entitled to uphold such. But, it is not only the muslims that believe that christians believe in three gods, it is also the Jews and even Siks and Budists and even atheists. So such accusation is not only from the muslims. Saying that Jesus died for your sins is only your wishful thinking as there is nothing from the words of Jesus to back that up. Yes you will find the words of others to back that up but in any non christian faith their words bear no weight at all. You can not compare the miracles of prophets and decide who to follow as let's say for Moses the sea was opened up and such was not given to Jesus or any prophet. So what is the point of making such comparisons? Yes we do now that we are saved and your assumtion that we are not does not affect us at all even if this enrages you. And gues what: No one will ever enter paradise unless he is a muslim just like Jesus was and any other prophet. And yes Jesus did not die nor did he resurrect but was taken up in heaven and he will return and be with the muslims and marry and die and then be rresurrected just like everybody else. I only wish that you live long enough to see him come and then you will see who was right. Anyway even if you die, you will indeed see who will go to hell and who will go to paradise. So let's wait and see. To you your religion and to us our. If you do want to believe what you do then at least testify that we are muslims just like we testify that indeed you are christian.

**Trumble** · 05-20-2007

Originally Posted by Sunnih

But, it is not only the muslims that believe that christians believe in three gods, it is also the Jews and even Siks and Budists and even atheists. So such accusation is not only from the muslims.

Said on the basis of what? To me, as a non-Christian, the concept of the Trinity is both perfectly simple (three aspects of the same thing) and perfectly monotheistic. I was baffled once as to why muslims cannot understand it that way until realising it was just far more convenient for them not to bother to try.

If Christians believe they are worshipping one God then that is precisely what they are doing. What muslims, or anybody else, may think they are doing is totally irrelevant. It is as arrogant of muslims to lecture Christians on Christianity as it would be for Christians to lecture muslims on Islam.