What is an agnostic?

format_quote Originally Posted by Gator

If the person thought he could prove god's existence, but still not affiliate with any religious group, then he would be a theist.
If the person thought god's existence was unprovable, but still believed, he would be an agnostic theist.

Are we makin up words now

format_quote Originally Posted by Gator

HA! No, just trying to clarify what had been said previously, based on the question.

Okey dokey, so how many sub-sections are there??

format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum

I have never heard an Atheist say they could prove god does not exits.
No one who truly understands the concept of proof, claims to have any.
(Well if they are honest)

Wilberhum, u sound like ur 'sleepless in seattle'

Dont mind me....

Its nearly 4 in the morning down under..... Im working on a website.... but dont worry tomorrow (if God wills) i will giv it to ya: like the say ' the proof is in the pudding'.

I'm accepting of a God. The major religions(and the minor ones!) are clearly man made.
My understanding of the creator is a non-interventionist one. We cant prove that he dosnt exist in a similar way that a Christian, jew or muslim can prove that he does.
We can however prove that he dosnt DO anything. thats enough proof for me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gator

Fair enough. I was trying to get the difference between what's generally called a Strong vs. a Weak Atheist and guess I failed miserably.

Okay okay, im here as i promised to prove all u agonistical/atheistical guys out there of the proof: however if u decide to NOT open your hearts and listen to ur conscious, that is entirely up to you.............

Now Muhammad was a man- an ordinary man, is that ur argument and that the quran are his own, let's say... poetry?

Certain orientalists have proposed the suggestion that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was mad, and they cite certain fictitious Traditions that hint at his suffering from epilepsy in defense of their claims. The purported revelations, they explain, were nothing more than the ramblings of a delusional madman. In fact the Arab pagans around the Prophet also accused him of madness, as Allah mentions in Surah 15, verse 6:



*{And they [the Arab pagans] say, ‘O you to whom the Reminder has been revealed! You are most surely insane!’}*



If the product of this “madness” were anything other than the Glorious Qur’an, there might be some weight to the claim. But as it stands, the question must be asked: Could a madman produce a seemingly perfect text? In fourteen hundred years of intense scrutiny and examination, not a single contradiction, grammatical flaw, or comparable imitation has ever been found.

Could a madman inadvertently compose a text that stood as the foundation of the most successful and extensive empires ever to grace the earth? Could a madman write a book that has united peoples of hundreds of different languages and races for over fourteen centuries? A text that directly generated radically original systems of government, economics, human rights, and scholarship that stood the test of time and have subsequently inspired the rules and governing systems by which we live today?

To call the Qur’an the product of insanity is no less implausible than a group of monkeys jumping on a keyboard and producing an unflawed copy of Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary. Furthermore, the Qur’an itself challenges such accusations through its self-declared inimitability (i’jaz). Allah says in Surah 2, verses 23 thru 24:



*{And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do it not – and you can never do it – then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.}*


Furthermore, if we believe in the existence of an all-powerful and controlling God, then we have to acknowledge that He would be in control the mind of a “madman” in the middle of the Arabian desert. As a believer in God, you have to admit that He willed and allowed for Muhammad to speak every verse of the Qur’an, and thereupon God allowed for these verses to travel around the world and win the hearts of billions of Muslims. If you are going on the assumption that the Qur’an is “misguidance,” then God’s willing its existence coupled with its colossal influence on mankind makes the Satanic-ploy theory more likely than its being a random creation of the mind of a madman.

An English speaker must bear in mid that the miracle of the Qur’an is in the Arabic original. In fact, the Qur’an only exists in Arabic; English versions are in reality translations of the meanings of the Qur’an. Additionally, it would be appropriate at this point to mention the innumerable scientific miracles scattered throughout the Qur’an. As this issue has been dealt with extensively in previous answers on our site, please refer to the following link for a detailed and astounding presentation:Miracles of the Qur’an.

Given the number of descriptions of natural phenomena in the Qur'an and its established age, we would expect that if it were written by Muhammad or someone contemporary to him, that it would be full of scientific errors. The fact that the Qur'an is consistent with science still today, therefore, is a powerful piece of evidence of the authenticity of the Qur'an as God's word. This is particularly impressive when we consider recent scientific discoveries which are found to be already stated in some form in the Qur’an.

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder and we made from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?

Surah 21 Verse 30
This one verse, however it was understood in earlier times, can now be realized as referring to the big bang and to key aspects of life recently discovered in science. Specifically, the earliest known fossils of living creatures were in the oceans and so historically life seems to comes from water in the sense of originating in the oceans. But more than that, several specific chemical processes essential for life depend critically on very special properties of water not found in other molecules. The necessity of water for life to exist is confirmed regularly in news today when astronomers comment on the possibility for life on other planets.


Im open to all questions..... and opinions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam

If the product of this “madness” were anything other than the Glorious Qur’an, there might be some weight to the claim. But as it stands, the question must be asked: Could a madman produce a seemingly perfect text? In fourteen hundred years of intense scrutiny and examination, not a single contradiction, grammatical flaw, or comparable imitation has ever been found.

Could a madman inadvertently compose a text that stood as the foundation of the most successful and extensive empires ever to grace the earth? Could a madman write a book that has united peoples of hundreds of different languages and races for over fourteen centuries? A text that directly generated radically original systems of government, economics, human rights, and scholarship that stood the test of time and have subsequently inspired the rules and governing systems by which we live today?

To call the Qur’an the product of insanity is no less implausible than a group of monkeys jumping on a keyboard and producing an unflawed copy of Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary. Furthermore, the Qur’an itself challenges such accusations through its self-declared inimitability (i’jaz). Allah says in Surah 2, verses 23 thru 24:



*{And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do it not – and you can never do it – then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.}*

.

I accept that in arabic it's going to sound different and flows a lot better than in english. In english, its incoherent, disjointed, and needs each paragraph to be reread several times to get a vague grip on the message being put across. Full of double negatives and strangely colloquiel mixed with "religio-speak" (thee's thy's thou's and surely's-which every scripture needs to give divine weight from the torah to the book of mormon)

In arabic, its possible for the lowliest person to have a gift with oratory. you dont have to be literate to produce a lovely poem or make an inspiring speech. Mohammed was an amazing orator and had charisma in abundance.

Now to a beleiver, because everyone waxes lyrical about it's beauty, and because of the "Divine" nature of it, who would disagree?
Evryone seeing the Mona Lisa painting has been told since childhood that this painting is a great work of art and will likewise wax lyrical about its style, technical genius and beauty. If critisising the Mona lisa carried a potential death penalty, it then becomes undeniably the greatest work of art ever.
Thats for artwork. Religion is a much deeper emotional seat.

As for inconsistancys, just on this forum , hundreds and hundreds of contradictions and inconsistancys spring up every week even without throwing in the hadiths. through the ages war after war has been fought over interpretation, and this battle continues today.

format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum

My Opinion is not Proof and neither is yours, nor is anyone else’s.
Shale I bring Moby Dick forward for my opinion of proof.

Is this your "New Thread". Why did you chose to take this one [MAD]Off Topic[/MAD]

Firstly, i was the one to start this thread, and after i received my answer from u guys, i wanted to show u proof there is a God and Islam was not man-made religion.... so OBVIOUSLY i would write the answer here.... or whats wrong, were you afraid people might revert back to the religion they were born with, once i had wrote my answer?

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,


Sorry - I have to stop you right there. Like many Muslims on the forum, you're using the word 'proof' incorrectly. A proof doesn't depend on how someone is feeling that day; it depends on rigorous logic. If there actually were a proof of god's existence, then everyone in the world who read it would be a theist.

Peace

Maybe we can start off by answering the question: what does the word proof really mean? God coming up to you and whispering in your ear 'hey dude, Im god?'

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

Mohammed was an amazing orator and had charisma in abundance.
.

Thats fine, I made my points, that was what i intended to do.

But just for the record, Muhammad was illiterate, and had no education whatsoever before the Divine Revelations from God came to him.:sunny:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam

But just for the record, Muhammad was illiterate, and had no education whatsoever before the Divine Revelations from God came to him.:sunny:

yupo, i know that