Sikhism

format_quote Originally Posted by Moss

finally i understand, i wish you were as straight forward as this from the beginning

well i kept trying and after a little while you start to doubt yourself and try rewriting stuff in a different way and when that happens you lose the plot yourself

Hey all

Man have i got to write an essay ere, but as i awlays say il take it step by step

Its at this point in time i seriously wish i knew the meaning of the quran of by heart. To me when i read explanations, the make total sense to me, but having to explain to an audience is pretty hard seeing as iv never been much of an academic . ISDHILLION you have this tendancy to use lengthly words, which i would never use, are you purposely makin me go all dizzy LOL

Iv noticed tension building up ere between you lot, but seriously do not start insulting eachother whther it be directly or indirectly!

Dhillion, as for the prophecies, what do you except from a human? Fine you talk about spirituality, but this introduced in the 15 century. Now i want you to think outside the box. Im accepting the fact you do not believe in logic, so i dont know if il get an answer out of you.

The creator has always sent the message that there is one god okay fine we agree with something. But why then are the revelations revealed before the quran, similar to the quran? Il use bible as an example. Now you gave an example of why one should wait for the day of judgement. The bible warn us about the day of judgment. It provides signs of when the day of judgemnt is near. It talks about heaven and hell and its description as does the quran. Now if you notice each book also talks about the book that was sent before it. Was this coincidental? Or will you say this relates to logic which you do not believe.

Now one of you asked where in the quran does it mention sikhs. Sikhism is amongst the many new religions that came after islam, Allah will not judge you any less or more if you were sikh, chriatian, hindu, budhist......you will classified as either muslim, or kaafir.

So your saying that if one requires a miracle to believe in god then thats a shallaw form of acceptance of the faith. Well that certainly is ones own opinion, but we are not talkin about the 21st century are we, this was back over 1400 years ago. Now i read guru nank went to makah, n when his feet were forced on either side, the kabah moved in that direction (astagfirullah). Do you believe in this? In if so how shallow can you get. To think god will allow this to happen. I know the response im going to get from you. And i understand what your thinking and why you think it, But the fact of the matter is that whether you accept it or not, that will be regarded as a miracle. So now am going to say to you that in roder to save Moses and his tribe, Allah allowed the river to split in two. If you have not heard this story just let me know and il tell you. Even today people will approach you and say prove the existance of god. How was he born etc etc. What are you going to say to him. If you do not have proof then how will they believe, Yes i know only by the grace of allah, but i know what you are going to say. That when the find the divine inspiration they will find their way. Keep in mind i told you to think outside the box.

The miracle that occured in them today will not occur in this day and age, execot for the major signs of the day of judgement. By reading the sggs sikhs get a sense of inner peace because you gradually become one with god.
But by reading the quran not only do you gain inner peace, but you realise the purpose of life, history is before your very eyes, and you know what is to come in the future.

okay i have to go
sorry iv had to cut this short

plz dont take anything i have written offensively, as i realise both parties are devoted to defending their faith

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji:sister:


“what do you except from a human?”

I am a human a prophecy is not a pre-requisite for my love and belief in guruji.

“Im accepting the fact you do not believe in logic, so i dont know if il get an answer out of you.”

With respect you have not read the last couple of posts even though they were not directed to you I suggest you read them

“The creator has always sent the message that there is one god okay fine we agree with something.”

In semitic faiths yes, in eastern faiths such as Hinduism the lord revealed spirituality by drawing man inwards through yoga and meditative practices but the firmness of naam was not given its due until Sikhism.

“But why then are the revelations revealed before the quran, similar to the quran?”

these are all semitic faiths and they all stem from the house of adam, however these revelations are brought through messengers which were not in the state my guru was, my guru was always one with god and so he revealed as god expressed. Again if you look at a couple of pages back I also showed moss how our religion does talk about the passed but this was not allowed in the sri guru granth sahib ji because it is irrelevant to self-realisation look at post 103 I have already answered this:

Sikhism



“Was this coincidental?”

I have said before that I believe that these have been revealed but I do not believe that these revelation teach man about his purpose I don’t care about moses or jesus or anyone else my guru says this is all irrelevant that’s why our guru/prophet never left he’s here today we didn’t get left with a book the word stayed with always. The day of judgement in Sikhism is at the point of death but we are not judged we are summated if that makes sense.


“you will classified as either muslim, or kaafir.”

In your religion yes but not in mine, you and I will not be classified just reborn.

When Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to mecca he was teaching the hajis a lesson now in your perspective you will see this as a miracle and therefore wowweee, however I see this as a learning exercise that when I meditate on the lord I can do it anywhere its not important the direction etc, never will I say that I want to be a sikh cos there are miracles, I am a sikh because of the power of gurshabad, you may call this power a miracle I don’t I see it as a miracle because I accept the word of the guru is god then god is all powerfull and that’s why gurshabad is powerfull. Now if some people convert etc cos of miracles that’s cool perhaps I say that is only shallow because of my own perspective but its cool however I need more than this.


“Even today people will approach you and say prove the existance of god. How was he born etc etc. What are you going to say to him. If you do not have proof then how will they believe”

you ask these questions cos you see religion as a missionary cause no one has ever questioned me about my religion and where they have for eg, this site, I believe I have stood my ground without providing proof, you know why this is the way I see it lets say 2 people are playing ping-pong you hit the ball to me and I hit it back to you, the same way when someone attacks my religion I send back a response and if my response was right then their questions should stop, what I don’t want to do is cause doubt in peoples minds I went you all to be happy and content IN YOUR OWN PLACE AND SPACE. Cos If I don’t infringe on others I will not allow others to infringe on me. Do you get me? My religion is not about gaining converts its all cool.


“The miracle that occured in them today will not occur in this day and age, execot for the major signs of the day of judgement.”

This is not true all I will say is I have seen stuff with my own eyes and it can happen the guru teaches us that there is nothing outside our own capability when you become one with god you have the power also but that doesn’t mean you should use it to show off, but like I said I have seen stuff with my own 2 eyes but that is all I will say.

“But by reading the quran not only do you gain inner peace, but you realise the purpose of life, history is before your very eyes, and you know what is to come in the future.”

When self-realisation is the purpose of life then as far I can care the whole world may burn around me what do I care? What will I do with these signs? They will not aide me on spiritual progress which is the fulfilment of human birth.

No offence,

Indy:thankyou:


BTW if anyone knows how to contact Dr Zakir Naik can you tell him that this:


It is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, volume 1 Japuji, the first verse:

"There exists but one God, who is called The True, The Creator, Free from fear and hate, Immortal, Not begotten, Self-Existent, Great and Compassionate."


from :http://saif_w.tripod.com/interfaith/.../insikhism.htm


is an incorrect translation and quite sly also the last part does not translate great and compassionate it actually translates:

revealed by the grace of the true guru - guruprasad

So sneekily Dr Zakir Naik does not want to acknowledge that god in sikhism is only revealed by the guru hmmmmmmm the plot thickens.

Salaam Aleichum Muslimah 19.

The bible warn us about the day of judgment. It provides signs of when the day of judgemnt is near. It talks about heaven and hell and its description as does the quran. Now if you notice each book also talks about the book that was sent before it. Was this coincidental? Or will you say this relates to logic which you do not believe.

the three books of Torah(Old Testemony) Bible(new Testemony) and Quran have a lot of resemblence, but they do contradict eachother.

u mentioned heaven and hell.

Hell is not mentioned in Torah as they do not believe in it.

Hell is mentioned in Bible but it only means a place where Jesus is not. hell is a eternal life WITHOUT the love of Jesus.

Hell in Islam is a cruel place where people will be burned for eternity etc.

so u see. these three things contradict eachother. the first scripture does not mention hell, and the two other have a complete different ideology of what hell means.

even the part about judgement day are different. Torah does not mention it, but the bible and quran does.
here are two different versions of how it will take place..
in the bible it is written that the christians will be murdered and they will have to fight back.
in Islam it says that muslims shall kill christians.

these two scripts contradict eachother....when the bible is talking about the "beast" that will come and kill all christians, it is talking about muslims, as they own scripture(hadith) tells them to kill christians.

muslim explain these contradictions of scriptures by saying that Quran is right and the other two are just corrupted.


these scriptures have nothin in common, besides the prophet.. but even on the prophets life stories they disagree..

Now one of you asked where in the quran does it mention sikhs. Sikhism is amongst the many new religions that came after islam, Allah will not judge you any less or more if you were sikh, chriatian, hindu, budhist......you will classified as either muslim, or kaafir.

exactly my sister. and we will all go to hell, even though we are Good true God fearing people. Ghandi and mother teresa will both go to hell...poor people. they were so good people, yet they will burn in hell..

Now i read guru nank went to makah, n when his feet were forced on either side, the kabah moved in that direction (astagfirullah). Do you believe in this?

some sikh sites talk about this, but no it is not true. what happend was that a man come to him and said "move your Feet, you are pointing them towards the House of God" and then he said "Oh my lovely brother, then tell me where God is not"?
talking about a house, it must mean that someone lives there. and when its "Gods house" it must mean God lives there.. and then he said" Show me a a direction where God is not" as God is everywhere, and not limited to a certain place.

and yes Muhammad, Moses; Jesus and all other prophets made miracles, but we should not follow them just because they made miracles. in India we have people that can cure you for diseases or tell you about what will happen tommorow, and these things come true...if they then said "we are prophets" does it mean we should follow them? no...but poor people get fooled by this and follows them as they think" he can do something we cant"..

thats why the Gurus said "Miracles are just a cheap way of fooling people"..

Ma Salaam
and sister, i do not take anything personally i am a calm person.

Riiiiiiiiiiiite clearly there must have been a misunderstanding along the way.

Lol dhillion ji i wouldnt regard the incident in makah as i do not believe it happen.

N i have been reading the post but i get confused between the ones you rite for moss n myself.

Miracles are just an example i have merely given. Yes you are a human. Out of curiosity have you always been devoted to your religion or is it a gradual thing where you realised you were not achieving something?

Today we have our book,you have yours, n they have theres. claims are that it is the word of god. They all have history in it, which we reflect upon. I do not need a light to shine down on me and voice to cum from the sky to know that allah exists. Iv got all i need and so has every muslim. But back in that era, when a man walks up2 and says i am a messenger from god....whose going to believe him?? Do you understand. And there were many that did not believe and thats why allah repeats in the quran that even if he was to give you a sign today you will not believe. Is that not true? You yourself ponder over this. To tell you the truth im glad iv met you. Subhanallah instead of being side tracked i have become a wiser person. I did not know much about sikhism, but now i see what the quran says reflects upon my everyday life.

amardeep, who said the poor are going to hell?? My goodness where do you get this information from. I get the impression that you go on them kind of websites that pick out apparent faults that they have made out, such as the one about the earth being flat...whats that all about??? When you are researching do proper research, dont just pick out bits. Like both you and dhillion must have said, you must read the whole quran and understand its meaning. The earth is flat isnt it?? The ground you walk on what is it?? rounded?? no it is flat so that we may travel the lands. N the earth as in the globe is described as an egg shape.Meaning that it is not perfectly rounded but slight oval shape.

Amardeep i know of the event that happend but cut it short to get my point.

I think wats happened is that you are taking the word miracle out of context. To me its something out of the ordinary, does not happened every day.

Curing diseases, ok thats become an everyday thing now. Every corner you turn, you hear stories. But that is not wat i am referring to.


Yes i know the scriptures contradict themselves, but the basic beliefs are there, which should make one explore the religions even more dont you think. Well that my opinion purely because i put myself in sum1 shoes hu was actually searching for the meaning of life.

Y would they not contradict. They were changed ova time, and the truth got altered with it.

Dhillion dr zakir naik has a website, cant remeb it tho sori, if i do i shall inform you.



Anyways this will be my last post now im afraid. I am sorry to leave....altough i was getting a bit addicted lol. Wish you all the luck in the future. Cya later

thanks for the info on your religion guys

Salaam aleichum Soldier.


soldier2000 wrote:

Amardeep your comments in post 212, specially about logic is not consistent with your doctrines- Sirgun/Nargun defies logic- and your colleague ISDHILLION confirms that-

as far as i am concerned, all i said was that the rules of sikhism are all about logic. there is not a rule in it which does not have a logically reason. so please dont put words into my mouth.

regarding the sirgun/nargun issue u came up with, i did a little bit of reading, but i could not find much. and then i read the article on the sikhism_islam interfaith site at i just made me laugh lol.


sochai soch na hova-ee jay sochee lakh vaar.
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

this is what you are doing. you are trying to reduce God astagfarallah!

tell me according to Islam, is it possible to know the limits of Allah? does he even have limits? if you say yes, then you have degraded Allah Subhana Wa Tala and reduced him into something which we can comprehend in our small minds. even in Islam i think it is said that our minds will never know the ways of the Lord.
It is in no way possible to describe the Lord, not even in Islam. The Quran mentions features about him, for instance in the bismillah we hear that he is the Compassionate, the Merciful, the forgiver etc. but do u think this is all? Do you think that the Quran tells you all there is about God?

jay ha-o jaanaa aakhaa naahee kahnaa kathan na jaa-ee.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.


Sirgun Nargun is about God being “formless” and then “not formless” at the same time.

You say this is a contradiction. I say this is pure logic. We as humans have a limited mind. We cant understand everything. We are limited. We can do a lot of progress in life, but at some point we have reached our limit and there is then no way to cross that limit. Let me give you an example:

Every year in the Olympics we see a 100 m run. And lets say that they break the world record each year and the record is now on 10 seconds. Amazing that they keep on breaking it each year, but we as humans are limited. At some point we well not be able to break our own records. We will never be able to run 100 meters in 2 seconds. Gurbani states this:

“The Lord created all creatures and they have been assigned different tasks.”


“He has so constructed His World that no one creature or species is exactly like the other.”
(AGGS p. 1056)

So the same way you cant compare an animal to a human, then you cant compare a human to God, as God is above is all.

as I have just shown you, humans are limited and they can only do things to a certain degree. But this is not the case with God:

His limits cannot be perceived. What is the Mystery of His Mind? Page 5, Line 7

On the sikh islam site they say that God is limited and there are certain things he can not do

but His limits cannot be found. Page 5, Line 9

you try to use your human mind to explain God. That’s the same as if you go to an airplane, open up its motor and try to explain which wire goes where, even though you know nothing about airplanes. The same way the airplane motor is decreasing your mind limit, so has God limited our minds.

So as dhillon has stated many times; God cant be described with logic.
Even your scripture says so in the Surat Iklas saying:
112.004
YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.

This is exactly sikhis point. There is NOONE like him. There is noone in this world or universe that is sirgun and nirgun besides God.


Then you say that these things contradict. This is hilarious. I could say the same thing about the Quran. In the bismillah we hear that God is forgiving, mercifull and compassionate, yet in all of these ayat we hear about Gods wrath. How can he be forgiving, and still be angry at the same time? By being forgiving , it should dispel his anger should’n it? Lol..can u see where im going?

001.007 002.059 002.061 002.090 003.112 003.134 003.162 004.093 005.060 005.080 006.040 006.147 006.148 007.071 007.097 007.098 007.152 007.162 008.016 010.027 012.107 012.110 013.013 014.021 014.044 015.090 016.026 016.034 016.045 016.058 016.094 016.106 016.113 017.015 017.057 018.055 020.081 020.086 021.042 021.046 021.087 022.002 024.009 025.065 029.010 029.029 033.025 034.005 040.029 040.083 042.016 045.011 047.028 048.006 054.037 054.039 057.013 058.014 059.002 060.013 067.018 069.047 076.010 104.006

You say that God can be described with logics and rationality. Then tell me. Everything we know of his mortal. Nothing exists forever, so how can God be immortal? God has been around for 105453543543543543545454354354354354355 times 44354353324254053 times 5432547875987574587858475 billion years, BEFORE he created the universe. Yet he was not doing anything as the world is only 3-4 billion years old. Wow this is rational huh. We live and die, but God has been around for so long lol…



Tell me. is there a limit to God?

Ma Salaama.

Dhillon Paaji if i have said anything wrong then please do correct me.

Salaam muslimah19.

i did'n mean poor as in people having no money. i said "poor people" as in i feel sorry for them. the word has to meanings.. "poor ghandi" does not mean "broke Ghandi without money"..it means" how sorry i feel for Ghandi he will go to hell"..

do u see?

i apalogise for the misuse of words.

Ma Salaama

and thanks for your views on life muslimah19. it was a pleasure debating with u.

May Allah swt/Akaal Purkh bless you..

Waleichum Salam wa Rahmatulahi Allahu Wa barakatu.

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji


“Out of curiosity have you always been devoted to your religion or is it a gradual thing where you realised you were not achieving something?”


when I was a school I was always the best in my class at religious studies I always believed that Sikhism was different but never had the same devotion then that I do today, a famous writer called Cunningham once said that “Sikhs are bound by an objective know only to them” – I think its this originality in Sikhism which I am drawn too aswell as the rich heritage.

“whose going to believe him?? Do you understand”

I understand, and my guru never said he was a messenger, he never brought a message the sri guru granth sahib ji is not a message, in Sikhism god went further and this time he proclaimed that the word was god, not a message, and its because all the other religions went astray at that time it made sense to have a spiritual form of enlightenment captured in history forever rather than a book of guidance. But if you feel that our guru is made up etc and you can live life with a clear conscience then that’s cool I don’t want youre faith to be divided either, but I as an individual do not renounce any religion but know that Sikhism is the path most righteous.


“you must read the whole quran and understand its meaning”

if I want to refute Islam then yes but I have no interest in refuting it I do not want to read an angelic revelation when I have god to guide me today – I am not saying this to poke fun I am being serious.


“thanks for the info on your religion guys”

have a nice day:thankyou:


ISDhillon


Ps well said Amardeep for the stuff on nirgun/sargun, although I believe when god says "maan tu jot swaroop hai apna mool pahchaan" - he is asking us to find the mool within, no?, so in that sense our soul which is part of the greater ocean must be nirgun/sargun aswell? this is the way i always understood it cos i cant imagine my soul any different than god cos SGGS always says god guru sikh is one. Anyhow this is the level to which I always understood.

I see my muslim brothers here have avoided answering my questions/posts.

I wonder why?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Hi Unbreakable,
Which argument do you feel has not been answered?

And more importantly, if you feel that your religion is beyond reason and logic (as ISDhillon does) then why do you want to reason about it?

Ansar please read post 223 I have written the same thing so many times I am sick and tired of repeating myself.

Thankyou much appreciated,

ISDhillon

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Hi Unbreakable,
Which argument do you feel has not been answered?

And more importantly, if you feel that your religion is beyond reason and logic (as ISDhillon does) then why do you want to reason about it?

Brother or Sister, I honestly do not careor am bothered what you or your brothers/sisters think about me and the faith I follow.

As far as I am concerned there is no argument. But if you insist, here I ask again.

What is the stone of Janat (paradise)?
Where is it kept?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Let's get one thing straight - I'm not insisting on anything. You challenged Muslims here to respond, so I did.

What stone of Jannah are you talking about? I don't want to assume anything.

My god you are a stupid one. I challenged Muslims? Why would I even bother? The challenge was placed by you and your brothers.

Myself and my brothers are merely responding and from what I can see you have weak arguments based on a foundation of assumption.

Get some glasses please and read the first half dozen posts where your muslims are mocking and slandering the Sikhs. (you might want to edit your signature to reflect your true nature).

NOW back to the questions

How many stones of Janat are there?

If there is more than one, then please tell me, where is it kept?

What is it?

Simple question.

A small request. Please don't make me repeat myself and please read the question carefully before replying and it might help if some thought was applied to your answers.

It's been a while since I've seen someone resort to such blatant insults on the forum. If you are unwilling to engage in intellectual discussion why be insulting? Your disrespectful attitude disgraces only yourself and you do a disservice to your religion with such comments.

Go to the first page of this thread and you shall see the "intellectual discussion" which your muslims started.

You are a new member but let me make it clear to you right here and now that this immature behaviour will not be tolerated on this forum.

My bad. Let me ask you; you don't expect people to repeat themselves time after time. Thats annoying.

There could be an infinite number of stones in paradise. Please be specific.
In paradise. You haven't been specific so don't expect a specific response. Which stone do you want to know about and what exactly do you want to know?I don't mind entertaining your questions but if you proceed with immature insults again, then there is no need to discuss anything with you.

Fine, lets "entertain you".

I did not say "Stone in paradise", I said "from". there is a difference. Its like saying "this fish is in the river babylon" and "this fish is from the river babylon".

Now that the quick english lesson is over.

According to Muslims a stone from paradise, known as the Stone of Janat was found, not too sure during the prophets time or after, but they found a stone.

I wanted to know about that and where it is kept, what do you do with it..etc.

I am sure my Muslim brothers and sisters here know about?

Remember, I said its FROM paradise, meaning it fell out of the sky (or where ever the muslim paradise is) and landed in Saudi arabia.

Further I forgot to mention, when it fell out of the sky, it was "white" then it suddenly turned "black" in colour. This according to some muslims is because of the Sins of the people of earth? (I think it was hot, due to the gravitational pull of the earth, it heated up and cooled down, thus reverting back to its original colour, many muslims share this view point aswell)