love marriages-your thoughts

well arrange marriage is the islamic way of getting married. i cant believe people will associate it with forced marriages or so called culture thing. lets define wat arrange marriage is really about. its basically a guy comes n ask for a gurl for her hand . n then her parents checks him out . and if they do end up liking him n seeing him a suitable potential husband for there doughtier they bring it up to her . then after him seeing her once and vise verse . she will do the prayer n allah will guide her * estakhra prayers* because she have faith in him... like the prophet said he only got one look . n obviously god had a reason behind it ... he obviously didnt say go n talk to her nor walk to the park like some other people said .. n get to know her n etc n then decide to marry her. cuz if he did.. he would have said it. we are muslims here... we cant just change the rules to suit us ... but if u really think that i hope u can sleep at nite.

now thats outta the way...... love marriages... if ur talkin about dating then obviously thats haram. but do u honestly believe that love comes before marriage like with out living with the person n knowing how he/ her is. i mean wat do u love about them... i think people r confusing it with being in love .or u can like a person.. now thats a different story .... ....... anywayz some people might use the excuse oh i met him at work n we talked etc then once they start liking each other more than a friend then thats when they should stop talking because we all know that its gonna lead to the haram ways .. u might say oh im strong... u could but people get sucked in .... i dont remember wat how the hadith is said but i will give u the meaning of when two ppl r sitting together obviously the third person its the shytan.

i just wanna say some people here believe that arrange marriages = Forced marriages.. which is not true.. yes we hear some situations that r forced but at the end its not arranged marriages .... and if some people do that we shouldnt say that its arranged or associate it with arranged when it isnt... i believe many people have the wrong idea about it. because in arranged marriages you can pick your future husband . all im saying if it worked in the past during the prophet dayz then it will work now .. the religion is for all times n places.. i think ppl r liking the idea of the western way of getting married .. but all im saying if u wanna do it that way dont try to bring or look down on arrange marriages to make ur self feel better when you know its the right way or justify wat ur doing. salamz

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

I'm not directing this at you, but you reminded me of a quite a relevant quote from Ibn Jawzi. He said in 'dhamm ul-hawaa':

“If you haven’t loved passionately or known the meaning of desire then get up and eat hay for you are nothing but a donkey.”

And again:

“You and the hard rock are equal.”

with the second one, couldn't he of meant any sort of love. i mean, for eg, love of a child towards its parents, etc. unless its meant to be taken in the same breath as the one above it?

On a serious note, love is definitely real - and I'm talking not of the superficial kind, but the real deep one that settles in the chambers of the heart (it's called [شغف] shaghaf in Arabic, think Surah Yusuf).

this reminds me, from an Islamic perspective, what is love and lust, and how (if in any way) are they "connected" to one another...because you hear of people falling in love before marriage but sometimes people label is it as lust, but the person in love feels that they're in love...and sometimes you hear people saying they're in love, then over time they get busy and forget them so does love "blow over" or is that lust (whatever it is)

and with the hadith that states that two people in love should marry (it's around here somewhere, i just cant be bothered looking for it) how do we know that what is meant is really not lust, and love? (i mean other than the fact that it is stated in the hadith of course) because alot of people think that if you see someone and find them physically attractive (even though that person who saw them says they're in love with them)


and no, no particular reason, im just wondering

Nothing to be afraid of, nothing to be shy of, and it's not something 'uncool' or for 'weaker souls' etc. Seriously, how can it be any of that when it's not even within a person's control! It's from the perfection and completeness of a person that they love.

ditto to that!

format_quote Originally Posted by arabianprincess

now thats outta the way...... love marriages... if ur talkin about dating then obviously thats haram. but do u honestly believe that love comes before marriage like with out living with the person n knowing how he/ her is.

yeps because of that hadith about if two people are in love, then they should marry so yh love before marriage is possible...unless there is some meaning to it i havnt yet come across hmmm

i mean wat do u love about them... i think people r confusing it with being in love .or u can like a person.. now thats a different story .... .......

thats what i also want to know

i just wanna say some people here believe that arrange marriages = Forced marriages.. which is not true.. yes we hear some situations that r forced but at the end its not arranged marriages .... and if some people do that we shouldnt say that its arranged or associate it with arranged when it isnt... i believe many people have the wrong idea about it. because in arranged marriages you can pick your future husband . all im saying if it worked in the past during the prophet dayz then it will work now .. the religion is for all times n places.. i think ppl r liking the idea of the western way of getting married .. but all im saying if u wanna do it that way dont try to bring or look down on arrange marriages to make ur self feel better when you know its the right way or justify wat ur doing. salamz

ditto to that too!!!

see its weird, alot of people have grown up with seeing forced marriages "dressed up" as "arranged marriages".. so now people have this idea that if you dont get to know your future before marriage then bam! its forced.

but thats not the case, you can get to know your future before marriage, but basically, with other people there...so arranged married are seen as something abhorrent, which they need not be...

so there's thesetwo extremes we now face...date the guy/girl before marriage to get them
OR
marry the guy/girl with force/without getting to know them before marriage at all).

notice how both of them aren't islamically acceptable? i.e the getting to know each other before marriage (in the haram way), or the forced marriage.

but what people forget is that there is an Islamically acceptable balance between the two and is that choosing your own spouse and getting to know your future in front the family, etc. see both win win....knowing your future spouse BUT without the haram baggage

so you can have a happy/non-forced marriage and yet get to know your future without falling into the wrong traps imo...

format_quote Originally Posted by arabianprincess

well arrange marriage is the islamic way of getting married. i cant believe people will associate it with forced marriages or so called culture thing. lets define wat arrange marriage is really about. its basically a guy comes n ask for a gurl for her hand . n then her parents checks him out . and if they do end up liking him n seeing him a suitable potential husband for there doughtier they bring it up to her . then after him seeing her once and vise verse . she will do the prayer n allah will guide her * estakhra prayers* because she have faith in him... like the prophet said he only got one look . n obviously god had a reason behind it ... he obviously didnt say go n talk to her nor walk to the park like some other people said .. n get to know her n etc n then decide to marry her. cuz if he did.. he would have said it. we are muslims here... we cant just change the rules to suit us ... but if u really think that i hope u can sleep at nite.

I think culture plays a role on what a person thinks of 'arranged' marriages. In some cultures, arranged marriages tend to be forced, or if not directly forced, they definetly have some element of emotional blackmail from the parents. I.e. things to the effect of: 'You have to marry him/her or I'll disown you forever'; 'I'm your parent, you cannot say no to me, you have to do what I say, isn't jannah beneath my feet?' etc etc.

This type of arranged (read: forced) marriage is what I think most of us are against, not to mention that it is Islamically impermissible.

What you've mentioned is the typical Islamic way of marriage, and can take the definition of arranged --> Nothing wrong with that. Also, as a side point, the potential guy/girl can sit and speak w/ each other, and in this day and time, I personally think they should do that at least a few times to get an idea of the person, of course, provided Islamic guidelines are upheld during the course of the meetings.

now thats outta the way...... love marriages... if ur talkin about dating then obviously thats haram. but do u honestly believe that love comes before marriage like with out living with the person n knowing how he/ her is. i mean wat do u love about them... i think people r confusing it with being in love .or u can like a person.. now thats a different story .... ....... anywayz some people might use the excuse oh i met him at work n we talked etc then once they start liking each other more than a friend then thats when they should stop talking because we all know that its gonna lead to the haram ways .. u might say oh im strong... u could but people get sucked in .... i dont remember wat how the hadith is said but i will give u the meaning of when two ppl r sitting together obviously the third person its the shytan.

Love marriages does not automatically mean through dating or haram means. Love can come by without any of that. It can even be at the first glance. This is reality, so many people have fallen in love after just a look. It can be because the two people were working together in the community, MSA, some organization, project etc. Also, what is haraam is khalwa, seclusion with each other. Speaking when needed, whilst observing proper Islamic adab in school, community projects, isn't haram.

There needs to be modesty and proper adab being observed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed

with the second one, couldn't he of meant any sort of love. i mean, for eg, love of a child towards its parents, etc. unless its meant to be taken in the same breath as the one above it?

I've heard it quoted in the same context as the first one in lectures, so wallahu 'alam.

this reminds me, from an Islamic perspective, what is love and lust, and how (if in any way) are they "connected" to one another...because you hear of people falling in love before marriage but sometimes people label is it as lust, but the person in love feels that they're in love...and sometimes you hear people saying they're in love, then over time they get busy and forget them so does love "blow over" or is that lust (whatever it is)

A question to you: Is there anything wrong with lust when it's taken along with love, i.e. the person intends to satisfy it through marriage?

Remember the quote from Imaam Ahmad, when he advised men to look for beauty first and then religion because men tend to look for beauty a lot more than women.

Lust is part of being human, and like other desires it needs to be channeled in the proper way. Is it wrong to lust for your spouse? Of course not. My point is, remember the following hadeeth in Muslim, in which it is related on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Prophet (salalahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said

"You will receive the reward for sadaqa even when you have sexual intercourse with your wives." The sahaba said, "Will we really be rewarded for satisfying our physical desires?" He replied, "If you have haram intercourse, you will be committing a sin; similarly, if you have halal intercourse, you will be rewarded."

So wallaahu 'alam, but what I understand is that if you lust for someone outside of marriage, even if to you it seems like love, marry them provided they're right for you in the usual criteria, otherwise lower the gaze and fast because fasting subdues desire. So when you satisfy your lusts with them you'll be getting rewarded - i.e. it becomes an act of ibaadah. Marriage in such a situation causes love to grow, even if initially you were attracted to the person through physical desire. Of course, over time if all you went into marriage with was lust, there's going to be problems down the line. However, if it's lust plus the usual criteria, deen, compatibility, taqwa, etc, why not?

Also, another angle that this can be looked at from is the fact that Allaah has beautified women for men. Men lust for women, it is something inherent. That is why we're advised to marry young, to take care of our lusts and channel it into the proper way. Another angle is, the hadeeth in Sahih Muslim, narrated by Jabir (ra.):

Jabir heard Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) say: When a woman fascinates any one of you and she captivates his heart, he should go to his wife and have an intercourse with her, for it would repel what he feels.

Islam doesn't condemn lusts per se, rather it knows that lust is part of being human. Therefore, they need to be taken care of in the proper way, not extinguished or forever suppressed - like the monks and priests try to do by trying to remain celibate for their entire lives. We've seen the corruptions amongst their ranks because of this, the homosexuality, molestation and what not.

Islamic is practical - and the intents of the Shariah are to preserve 5 -> faith, life, lineage, intellect and property. Therefore, it facilitates marriage and makes the means for it easy and exhorts people to get married young - because marriage in fact serves to preserve all five intents.

and with the hadith that states that two people in love should marry (it's around here somewhere, i just cant be bothered looking for it) how do we know that what is meant is really not lust, and love? (i mean other than the fact that it is stated in the hadith of course) because alot of people think that if you see someone and find them physically attractive (even though that person who saw them says they're in love with them)

I think the question should be: where should the line be drawn between marrying for deen, compatibility etc, versus marrying solely for physical desire.

If they're taken together, nothing wrong with that. If it's only for the latter, then that's where the problem lies.

Wallaahu 'alam.

everyone loves the marriage threads

format_quote Originally Posted by nebula

everyone loves the marriage threads

Hah! Oh so true.
Except for people who are actually married, I think. I'm sure the constant talk of marriage gets on their nerves eventually.

I was going through Ibn Hazm's book..and I came across a few certain paragraphs..that fit quite nicely with what you were asking here about love fading away over time:

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed

and sometimes you hear people saying they're in love, then over time they get busy and forget them so does love "blow over" or is that lust (whatever it is)

His words and the poems are so beautiful. He says:

Some say that union too long enjoyed is fatal to love. That is a vile doctrine, advanced only by those who quickly tire of a sweet romance. On the contrary, the longer the union lasts the firmer the attachment becomes. Speaking for myself, I have never drunk deep of the waters of amorous union without my thirst raging all the more fiercely: such is the predicament of one who seeks to cure himself by applying as remedy the very sickness from which he is suffering the respite is immediate, but soon gone. I have reached, in mastery of those I have loved, the furthest attainable goals, beyond which no man may aim to achieve, and yet I have ever found myself desirous for more. I have enjoyed such exquisite pleasure a long while, and never experienced weariness nor been overtaken by lassitude.

One day I was seated in close company with a certain person I loved, and wherever I turned my thoughts, speculating on the many varieties of union, I found none that fell not short of my desire; all failed to satisfy my passion; not any accorded me fulfillment of even the least of my dreams. The nearer I approached my goal, the further my goal eluded me: the flintstone of yearning passion kindled the fire of anguish within my breast. I immortalized that interview in the following stanzas.

Come, bring a knife and cleave apart
This solitude within my heart,
Then lay my love within the tear,
And stitch it up with tender care.

And with the morn I pray she shall
Look for no other place to dwell,
But fondly keep this little room
Her own, until the Day of Doom.

Here let her live, so long as I
Draw breath, and when I come to die
My heart for comfort may she crave
In the dark silence of the grave.

There is no situation in all the world that can compare with the happy state in which a pair of lovers find themselves, when they have none to spy upon them, when they are secure from slanderers and safe from separation, when they have no desire to turn away one from the other, and are far indeed from growing weary, when they are spared the attentions of reprovers, when their natures are perfectly attuned and they love each other with equal ardour, when Allah has bestowed on them abundant subsistence, complete tranquillity, and a season of peace, when their union is lawful, and blessed by Allah's approval, and when their association endures long and unbroken even to the day of death, which day none can thrust away nor escape. But that is a grace none has ever fully enjoyed, a need of the soul not granted to all who seek it. Were it not for the fact that this state is ever accompanied by the dread of sudden destined calamities, ordained in the hidden pandects of Allah, such as parting unpremeditated, or death ravishing the one or the other while yet in the flower of youth-were it not for these and like circumstances I would have said that union such as I have described is a state remote from all misfortune, secure against the intrusion of any catastrophe.

I have known men who have enjoyed all the aforementioned advantages in full, save that they had the single misfortune to find that the object of their affection was of a froward disposition, and coquettish in the consciousness that she was adored. Their life together was therefore never truly happy; not a day dawned without some dispute flaring up between them. Moreover both partners (as I have observed) suffered from the same defect of character, because each was confident of the other's love: and so they continued, until separation drew nigh to them and they were parted by death, that is the invariable rule of this transient world. I have expressed this matter in verse.

How can I thus unjustly blame
The mischief separation wreaks?
My loved one's ways are all the same
She ever separation seeks.

It would have been sufficient woe
Passion inflicted on my like
How shall I bear this double blow
Passion and separation strike?

It is related that Ziyad Ibn Abi Sufyan said one day to his courtiers, " What man enjoys the most blissful life? " " The Prince of the Faithful ", they replied. " But what of the trouble he suffers at the hands of the Quraish? " " Then thou ", the courtiers suggested. " But what ", said Ziyad, " of the troubles I suffer at the hands of the Kharijis and at the outposts of the empire?" They said, "Then who is that man, 0 Prince? " He answered, " A good Moslem, married to a good Moslem wife, with sufficient means to provide for the two of them, satisfied with her and she with him, not knowing me, and I not knowing him."

Is there any lovely thing provoking the admiration of all creatures, that gladdens the heart, captivates the senses, charms the soul, dominates the passion, ravishes the reason, and snatches away the mind, comparable with the anxiety of the lover over the beloved? I have witnessed many situations of this sort; and indeed it is a wonderful spectacle, evoking the most tender compassion, especially if the romance be clandestine. If you could see the beloved subtly alluding when she is questioned as to the cause of her being angry with the lover, and his perplexity as he tries to extricate himself from his mishap by offering excuses, and how she willfully misinterprets him, and he contrives to invent some meaning in her words which he can offer to the bystanders-if you could be present at such a scene, you would truly behold a marvel, and a secret delight all other pleasures surpassing. I personally have never witnessed anything that so powerfully stirs the heart, so deeply plunges into its very life, and so subtly penetrates its vital spots.

Lovers in union have such plausible excuses to offer that baffle the sharpest intellects and defeat the most powerful minds. I have seen this on a number of occasions, and composed this poem to illustrate the point.

If one really tries
Truth to mix with lies,
With the fool the two
Pass for one, and true.

Yet between the twain
Is distinction plain,
And the man of sense
Notes their difference.

Silver fused with gold
Readily is sold
"Pure, without alloy"
To the foolish boy.

But if you prefer,
Try the jeweller
He will tell for sure
Counterfeit from pure.

If you have the time, read the entire chapter 'Of Union', some of the stories (and especially the poetry) he mentions really touch the heart.
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hazm...dove.html#ch19

wa alaykum us-Salaam
barakallahi feek...

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

Some say that union too long enjoyed is fatal to love. That is a vile doctrine, advanced only by those who quickly tire of a sweet romance.

I am inclined to agree with that.

On the contrary, the longer the union lasts the firmer the attachment becomes.

I also agree with that, but the author gives the impression of overly expressing the feeling is ok... but i disagree (if this is his intent) i believe that if people talk/see, etc each other too often than it it does affect their relationship negatively. Its like the saying absence makes the heart grow fonder. The more you see someone (well excessively anyway), the more you get sick of them, be it your spouse or otherwise. And when your not with them this too increases your longing for them...
Either that or i have completely misunderstood

On the side: Subhanallah i was relieved when i saw the last chapters of that book! I don’t mean to be disrespectful to the author or anything, but some things mentioned can be taken the wrong way! An ignorant youth –or just anyone ignorant- may think its ok to to channel your desires in the wrong way... but there is NO excuse to sin, no matter how taken in you may be for some one...

I think the following is important to note...

I know of a young slave-girl who was ardently passionate for a certain youth, the son of a noble household, but he was ignorant of her sentiments. Great was her sorrow, and long her despair, so that she pined and wasted away for the love of him. He in all the pride of youthful indifference was quite unconscious of her suffering, which she was prevented from revealing to him by maidenly modesty; for she was a virgin unspotted, and moreover respected him too highly to surprise him with a declaration which for all she knew he might not find to his liking. As time went on, however, and the girl felt more and more certain of the state of her heart, she at last complained of her plight to a sagacious woman who enjoyed her confidence, for she was her old nurse. The latter said to her, " Hint at your feelings to him in verse." The girl did as she was advised, and that time after time; but the youth paid no attention whatsoever. It was not that he lacked intelligence and wit; quite the contrary; but he had no suspicion of her intention, that his imagination should be alert to look for hidden meanings in her words. Finally the girl's endurance was at an end; her emotions were insupportable. One night she w seated with him Me-a-tete; and God knows that he was most chaste and self-disciplined, very far indeed from committing any impropriety. Finding that she could no longer control her feelings, when she stood up to leave him she suddenly turned and kissed him on the mouth, then, without uttering a single word, coquettishly swaying she withdrew. I have tried to picture the scene in a poem.
But i think its dealy important to be taken in the same breath
Once I was passing the night in the house of a female acquaintance, a lady renowned for her righteousness her charity and her prudence. With her was a young girl of her own kindred we had all been brought up together, then I had lost sight of her for many years, having left her when she reached puberty. I found that the waters of youth had flowed like a rushing exuberant river over her countenance; the fountains of grace and charm gushed over her. I was confounded and amazed. Into the firmament of her face the stars of beauty had climbed, to shine and glitter there; in her cheeks the flowers of loveliness had budded, and were now in full bloom. How she appeared before me that memorable evening, I have striven to describe in these verses.

She was a pearl most pure and white,
By Allah fashioned out of light;
Her beauty was a wondrous thing
Beyond all human reckoning.

If on the Day of Judgement, when
The trumpets sound for sinful men,
I find, before the Throne of Grace,
My deeds as lovely as her face;

Of all the creatures Allah made
I shall most fully be repaid,
A double Eden to reside,
And dark-eyed virgins by my side.

She came of a family in which good looks were hereditary, and had now herself developed into a shape that beggared description; the tale of her youth loveliness ran through Cordova. I passed three successive nights under the same roof with her, and following the customs with persons who have been brought up together she was not veiled from my view. Upon my life, my heart was well-nigh ravished, the passion which I had so rigorously banished almost repossessed my bosom, the forgotten dalliance of youth was within an ace of returning to seduce me. Thereafter I forbade myself to enter that house, for I feared that my mind might be too violently excited by the admiration of such beauty. Certainly, she and all the members of the household were ladies upon whose respectability amorous ambitions might not hope to trespass; but, as I have remarked in the little poem, which follows, no man is secure from the vexations of Satan.

Suffer not thy soul
Passion to pursue,
And, to keep it whole,
No temptations woo.

Satan liveth yet,
He will never die,
And seduction's net
Is the human eye.

I also have these verses.

How many say
"This thing is naught
But a dark thought
To make thee stray."
"Blame me not, pray!"
I answer. "What,
Is Satan not
Alive to day?"

If only our youth were more like this

Allah has not set down for us the stories of Joseph the son of Jacob, and David the son of Jesse, all prophets of God, save to make us aware of our own shortcomings and the dire need we have of His protection, and to teach us how corrupt and frail is our human constitution. Those two were prophets and messengers of God, the sons of prophets and Divine messengers; they were of a household wherein prophecy and apostleship were hereditary; they were wrapped about in God's safe keeping, immersed in the ocean of His love, encompassed by His tender care, fortified by His mighty protection, so that Satan had no way of coming unto them, and no road was open for his temptations to draw nigh them. Yet for all that Joseph and David came to the pass which Allah has described for us in His revealed Koran, by reason of that natural disposition within them, that human character and original constitution which were implanted in their souls, and by no means because of any deliberate will and intent on their part to sin; for the prophets are exempt from all that is at variance with obedience to the Divine Will. What passed in them was a natural admiration for lovely forms, common to every human soul; and who among us would be so bold as to claim the mastery of his soul, or who will engage to control its wayward impulses, save with Allah's strength and power assisting him? The first blood shed upon the earth was the blood of one of Adam's sons, all on account of rivalry for the possession of women. The Messenger of Allah himself says, "Keep a distance between the breaths of men and women." There was once a Bedouin woman who became pregnant of a kinsman. She was asked, " What is this inside of you, Hind?" She answered, " The fruit of pillows much too near, and of a night too long and drear! " I have a poem on this subject.

Reprove him not who courts afflictions such!
As others, proving, like not overmuch.
Bring not the thorn bush overnear where lies
The blaze, for if thou dost, the smoke will rise!
Trust not in any man, howe'er sublime
For men are all depraved-and so is time.
Women are made as surely for the male
As man is made for women, without fail.
All things are passionate for their own kind
Suppose not any otherwise designed.
The righteous man is he who, when a fence
Rings him from wrong, shows fair obedience
The other, whom you discipline with pain,
Tries every trick to rid him of the rein.

the most beautiful thread

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed

wa alaykum us-Salaam
barakallahi feek...


I am inclined to agree with that.

I don't! And that's not just because Ibn Hazm says that, but because honestly, if you truly truly love someone and that love is reciprocated to the same degree, then it doesn't die out. If there is enough love between two people and they're in a lawful union then the longer they're together the stronger it gets. Association breeds love, time spent together increases it, and shared experiences, memories, and times keeps it strong. That's why you find old couples truly in love with each other, meaning seriously in love with each other after decades of being together, in love as if they had just fallen into it yesterday - it's rare but those fortunate enough to get it will tell you it exists and length of time only causes love to increase.

I also agree with that, but the author gives the impression of overly expressing the feeling is ok... but i disagree (if this is his intent) i believe that if people talk/see, etc each other too often than it it does affect their relationship negatively. Its like the saying absence makes the heart grow fonder. The more you see someone (well excessively anyway), the more you get sick of them, be it your spouse or otherwise. And when your not with them this too increases your longing for them...
Either that or i have completely misunderstood

There's a difference when it's being expressed from one side only, with the other side (in particular the female) not really caring about it, or becoming arrogant towards the man. That's when it effects the relationship negatively, because one side is averse to the other, even if they actually do love them.

He actually mentions it here:

I have known men who have enjoyed all the aforementioned advantages in full, save that they had the single misfortune to find that the object of their affection was of a froward disposition, and coquettish in the consciousness that she was adored. Their life together was therefore never truly happy; not a day dawned without some dispute flaring up between them. Moreover both partners (as I have observed) suffered from the same defect of character, because each was confident of the other's love: and so they continued, until separation drew nigh to them and they were parted by death, that is the invariable rule of this transient world.

If both love each other without the confidence that the other loves them just as much - it makes them work more on the relationship if they truly love each other and thus the longer they're with each other, or the higher the intensity of them expressing their emotions - the better the relationship gets. They never tire of each other, or each other's company.

On the side: Subhanallah i was relieved when i saw the last chapters of that book! I don’t mean to be disrespectful to the author or anything, but some things mentioned can be taken the wrong way! An ignorant youth –or just anyone ignorant- may think its ok to to channel your desires in the wrong way... but there is NO excuse to sin, no matter how taken in you may be for some one...

I think the things mentioned in the book aren't zina, most are just a few stolen kisses here and there - which technically are minor sins. Of course, it shouldn't be done and it's haram, but it happens because sometimes people cannot control their desires, especially when they fall head over heals in love - which is exactly why it isn't a major sin. Plus I think the translation isn't that great, it probably could have been done better. Not to mention a lot of the stories have to do with men falling in love with their slave-girls which for them are completely halal. I think we should read the book and appreciate the stories, because they're intended to illustrate a certain point and are not to be taken as indicating the legality or imperissibility of action x or y.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

I don't! And that's not just because Ibn Hazm says that, but because honestly, if you truly truly love someone and that love is reciprocated to the same degree, then it doesn't die out. If there is enough love between two people and they're in a lawful union then the longer they're together the stronger it gets. Association breeds love, time spent together increases it, and shared experiences, memories, and times keeps it strong. That's why you find old couples truly in love with each other, meaning seriously in love with each other after decades of being together, in love as if they had just fallen into it yesterday - it's rare but those fortunate enough to get it will tell you it exists and length of time only causes love to increase.

Ooo, misunderstood it... That’s why I didn’t agree with it...but no, now that i get it, i do agree with it.

There's a difference when it's being expressed from one side only, with the other side (in particular the female) not really caring about it, or becoming arrogant towards the man. That's when it effects the relationship negatively, because one side is averse to the other, even if they actually do love them.

The female!? I find that more common in the males... females naturally like the attention, so i don’t agree with ...the other side (in particular the female) not really caring about it

In fact, if you want my whole hearted opinion –as excessive as it may be- id say it’s the other way around i.e the males don’t really care and are the arrogant ones...and that’s because he knows that he is allowed three others if he wanted, and he knows that she’s only allowed one at a time...so, in a way, he’ll use it against her (knowingly or unknowingly)...so that would make him think it’s okay to not really care about it, for the reason that he’ll know he’ll get away with it....

But anyway, i wasn’t referring to that...i meant when it’s expressed by both sides excessively...its like when you visit a friend too many times in one week, for eg...it’s almost inevitable that your relationship will deteriorate....

I think the things mentioned in the book aren't zina, most are just a few stolen kisses here and there - which technically are minor sins. Of course, it shouldn't be done and it's haram, but it happens because sometimes people cannot control their desires, especially when they fall head over heals in love - which is exactly why it isn't a major sin.

They cannot, or they don’t want to i mean if one is literally out of their mind or something, then that’s excusable...so after that, really, what’s the excuse...i don’t get it? Really, I strongly disagree.

i dont mean to sound like a sour grape but the "love is blind" excuse, i really cant swallow...because at the end of the day, we have full control of our limbs, and know the advice from the sahabis/ulamaa, etc on how to deal with such issues...i mean the warnings/advice is there... we're responsible for our actions! so what is going on?

I think we should read the book and appreciate the stories, because they're intended to illustrate a certain point and are not to be taken as indicating the legality or imperissibility of action x or y.

i understand that, but still, some people may take it that way...hey they’re head over heels, why wouldn’t they...

we could publish this whole thread into a book called "LI's Thought on Love Marriages"

author=Umm al Shaheed

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed

The female!? I find that more common in the males... females naturally like the attention, so i don’t agree with ...the other side (in particular the female) not really caring about it

In fact, if you want my whole hearted opinion –as excessive as it may be- id say it’s the other way around i.e the males don’t really care and are the arrogant ones...and that’s because he knows that he is allowed three others if he wanted, and he knows that she’s only allowed one at a time...so, in a way, he’ll use it against her (knowingly or unknowingly)...so that would make him think it’s okay to not really care about it, for the reason that he’ll know he’ll get away with it....

But anyway, i wasn’t referring to that...i meant when it’s expressed by both sides excessively...its like when you visit a friend too many times in one week, for eg...it’s almost inevitable that your relationship will deteriorate....

I think if we continue to argue on whether its the male or the female, we're never going to reach an agreement!

They cannot, or they don’t want to i mean if one is literally out of their mind or something, then that’s excusable...so after that, really, what’s the excuse...i don’t get it? Really, I strongly disagree.

i dont mean to sound like a sour grape but the "love is blind" excuse, i really cant swallow...because at the end of the day, we have full control of our limbs, and know the advice from the sahabis/ulamaa, etc on how to deal with such issues...i mean the warnings/advice is there... we're responsible for our actions! so what is going on?

i understand that, but still, some people may take it that way...hey they’re head over heels, why wouldn’t they...

I don't think you've ever experienced being deeply in love, it makes a person do things he would never have done. At the time of 'Umar (I believe it was or around those years), during one of the wars there was a Muslim who was steadfast, Qiyaam al-Layl, a memoriser of the Qur'an. Yet in one of those battles he saw a woman from amongst the Roman Empire and he fell in love and she was a Christian. He went to her and she wouldn't have him unless he became a Christian, so he apostated for her and went to her. Later his brothers found him there years later and asked him, 'What happened to you? Your fasting, your Qur'aan, your night prayer?' and he replied, "Ive forgotten all of the Qur'aan except for this verse: {Perhaps those who disbelieve will wish that they had been Muslims.}".

The Messenger (salalahu 'alayhi wa sallam) knew that there will be people in his Ummah that will fall into these things short of zina, which is why (excusable or not) anything short of zina was made into a minor sin. That's why we're supposed to go pray after if we ever do such a thing because the prayer expiates the minor sins between it. It so happened that a Companion of the Messenger himself fell into it! How can anyone say that we can't make excuses for these people thereafter?

Al-Bukhari recorded Ibn Mas`ud saying that a man kissed a woman (who was not his relative or wife). He then came to the Prophet and informed him about the incident. Thus, Allah revealed,

[وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَوةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهَارِ وَزُلَفاً مِّنَ الَّيْلِ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَـتِ يُذْهِبْنَ السَّـيِّئَـتِ]

(And perform Salah, at the two ends of the day and in some hours of the night. Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds.)[11:114]

The man then said, "O Messenger of Allah, is this only for me'' The Prophet replied,

«لِجَمِيعِ أُمَّتِي كُلِّهِم»

(This is for all of my (Ummah) followers.)

Al-Bukhari recorded this narration in the Book of Prayer as well and the Book of Tafsir.

Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that a man came to `Umar and said that a woman came to do business with him. During the course of their business, he took her into his place and did everything with her except the actual act of sexual intercourse. `Umar said, "Woe unto you! She probably was a woman whose husband is away (fighting) in the path of Allah.'' The man said, "Of course she was.'' `Umar then said, "Go to Abu Bakr and ask him about this.'' The man went to Abu Bakr and asked him about the matter. Abu Bakr said, "She probably was a woman whose husband is away (fighting) in the path of Allah,'' just as `Umar had said. Then he went to the Prophet and told him the same story. The Prophet said,

«فَلَعَلَّهَا مُغِيبَةٌ فِي سَبِيلِ الله»

(She probably was a woman whose husband is away (fighting) in the path of Allah.) Then a verse of Qur'an was revealed,

[وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَوةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهَارِ وَزُلَفاً مِّنَ الَّيْلِ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَـتِ يُذْهِبْنَ السَّـيِّئَـتِ]

(And perform the Salah, at the two ends of the day and in some hours of the night. Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds.) The man then said, "O Messenger of Allah! Is this verse only for me, or does it apply to all of the people in general'' `Umar then struck the man on his chest with his hand and said, "No, rather it is for all of the people in general.'' Then the Messenger of Allah said,

«صَدَقَ عُمَر»

(`Umar has spoken the truth.)

This is a companion we're talking about! From the best generation ever raised up for mankind! I find that when our youth fall into these sins we (generally speaking, most of us) tend to take a hardcore view (we adopt a 'holier than thou' attitude) and instead of helping them we push them away, make them feel seriously guilty without giving them a way to turn their guilt into positive action. Whenever someone amongst the Companions did something wrong, be it zina or otherwise, they would go actually to the Prophet and tell him. Why? Because they would get a solution and help to become better. The Prophet (saw) empowered these people. Yet it is a sad reality that today the last place anyone would go to seek help if they've done something wrong are the Masajid or adults in the community because at the end the person that committed the sin will get judged and have a stigma on him for the rest of his life. Allaah says the Companions of the Messenger (saw) would have abandoned him had he been rude and harsh in his heart, rather by the mercy of Allaah he was leniant to them:

{So by mercy from Allah , [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you. So lovingly pardon (fa'fu 'anhum) them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter.}[ale-imraan; 159]

Sometimes adopting the most conservative or hardcore view is not the best thing to do and it's not necessarily the closest thing to piety. Rather leniency and gentleness sometimes has a greater effect on the hearts than anything else.

Sorry for getting off on a tangent, but I wanted to add context to what I was saying.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

love marriage.. is there any other kind? two kindred spirits finding one another...should be based on mutual respect and understanding and something not quite of this world..

'arranged marriages' might last longer but I sometimes question why? perhaps too traditional that some would rather stay in an unhappy union than risk being made into a pariah for wanting better..

and Allah swt knows best..

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Great post!

My take on marriage is, If you end up married to someone you dont love, then you spend the rest of your time unhappy and trying to blame someone!!!

Lets play by the rule.....where theres love, theres marriage!!!

FiAmaaniAllah

wa alaykum us-Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

I don't think you've ever experienced being deeply in love, it makes a person do things he would never have done. At the time of 'Umar (I believe it was or around those years), during one of the wars there was a Muslim who was steadfast, Qiyaam al-Layl, a memoriser of the Qur'an. Yet in one of those battles he saw a woman from amongst the Roman Empire and he fell in love and she was a Christian. He went to her and she wouldn't have him unless he became a Christian, so he apostate for her and went to her. Later his brothers found him there years later and asked him, 'What happened to you? Your fasting, your Qur'aan, your night prayer?' and he replied, "Ive forgotten all of the Qur'aan except for this verse: {Perhaps those who disbelieve will wish that they had been Muslims.}".
[...]

barakallahu feek....hmmm i think i get it...but you know what i disagree with...i cant stand how people use the "love is blind" excuse, and leave it just at that, and not actually try to do something about their situation, and just continue with the excuse that "love is blind"...that's problematic i think...

did that guy that apostatized though...did he go back to Islam?

format_quote Originally Posted by Najm

My take on marriage is, If you end up married to someone you dont love, then you spend the rest of your time unhappy and trying to blame someone!!!

i kind of disagree with that. i truly believe that a marriage can survive withOUT love. i mean at the very least, both parties have to have a mutual respect for each other, right?...no fighting,
good compromising, etc...just a like good friends

i don't believe you have to be in love with your spouse for your marriage to be successful...love, imo, isn't a foundation for a successful marriage, so i say, without it, a marriage can survive!