with due respect to all, i dont think a thread wishing merry Christmas to Christians is very appropriate
Congratulating the kuffaar on their religious festivals is haraam to the extent described by Ibn al-Qayyim because it implies that one accepts or approves of their rituals of kufr, even if one would not accept those things for oneself. But the Muslim should not aceept the rituals of kufr or congratulate anyone else for them, because Allaah does not accept any of that at all, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
"If you disbelieve, then verily, Allaah is not in need of you, He likes not disbelief for His slaves. And if you are grateful (by being believers), He is pleased therewith for you. . ."
[al-Zumar 39:7]
". . . This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islaam as your religion . . ."
[al-Maa’idah 5:3]
So congratulating them is forbidden, whether they are one’s colleagues at work or otherwise.
Like it or not Dec 25 is pretty much a worldwide holiday. I suspect more non-Christians celebrate it then the number of Christians, However, it is not a religious celebration for most of the world. For most people it is a day to reflect upon Peace and putting out a thought of good will towards others.
Admittedly with as many Indians and Jews as I know in the work place I have never seen anyone shove their holidays down everyone's throat as Christians do.. Indians especially have round the clock festivals.. Jews have a couple of days, you hardly ever hear of them unless they ask for a day off... They've hijacked any beautiful meaning or solemnity with their round the clock commercialism, forcing non-Christians to participate in such absurdities as Kris Kringle, buying and receiving worthless crap for people they don't know and have no desire to know merely for the sake of appearances, and God forbid if you have no desire to participate!
It has never been about 'good will toward man' It is pure commercialism with a tinge of evangelism!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Admittedly with as many Indians and Jews as I know in the work place I have never seen anyone shove their holidays down everyone's throat as Christians do.. Indians especially have round the clock festivals.. Jews have a couple of days, you hardly ever hear of them unless they ask for a day off... They've hijacked any beautiful meaning or solemnity with their round the clock commercialism, forcing non-Christians to participate in such absurdities as Kris Kringle, buying and receiving worthless crap for people they don't know and have no desire to know merely for the sake of appearances, and God forbid if you have no desire to participate!
It has never been about 'good will toward man' It is pure commercialism with a tinge of evangelism!
That is true. Especially noticable in the large cities. I guess I am a bit protected by living out in the boon docks and the fact that most people I know are Non-Christian Lakotah, who see Dec 25 simply as a day to offer friendship to others. Besides the people on the Rez are too poor to be of much commercial interest.
That is true. Especially noticable in the large cities. I guess I am a bit protected by living out in the boon docks and the fact that most people I know are Non-Christian Lakotah, who see Dec 25 simply as a day to offer friendship to others. Besides the people on the Rez are too poor to be of much commercial interest.
It sounds like paradise akhi.. you want to trade lives?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
It sounds like paradise akhi.. you want to trade lives?
Sorry Ukhti, not with knowing that very soon we will be moving to the Northern Cheyenne Reservation in Montana. Even less influence from any Western European type culture. really not a very far move, as the Western Edge of Standing Rock almost touches the Northern Cheyenne. The area is best known for it's closeness to the "Battle of the Little Bighorn" Where Custer got Siouxed (For those not familiar Siouxed is pronounced Sued, for the Rest of the story do a google for Custer's Last Stand)
Anyhow it is an area with no Christmas commercialization.
Sorry Uhkti, not with knowing that very soon we will be moving to the Northern Cheyenne Reservation in Montana. Even less influence from any Western European type culture. really not a very far move, as the Western Edge of Standing Rock almost touches the Northern Cheyenne. The area is best known for it's closeness to the "Battle of the Little Bighorn" Where Custer got Siouxed (For those not familiar Siouxed is pronounced Sued, for the Rest of the story do a google for Custer's Last Stand) Anyhow it is an area with no Christmas commercialization.
horses, wild life, virginal snow, no fundies or atheists in sight.. I have been going about it all wrong I tell you..
may Allah swt multiply and increase your blessings akhi in this life and the next..
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
kidcanman, it is so good to know I'm not the last sane man left in this religion. If I could have given you reputation points ten times instead of just once with this system, I would have.
A person who is truly sane would not need to puff themselves up with self-aggrandizement, no?
Learn Patience from Asiyah, Loyalty from Khadijah, Sincerity from Aisha and Steadfastness from Fatima.
Of course one has to guard against inovations in matters of our faith. Oddly for me its my non-religious friends/associates who ask me why I dont celebrate Christmas but its easy to bat away (eg. what exactly has this festival to do with me? I come from a different faith/culture/background so please dont be offended if I dont take part etc etc).
If you are confident and comfortable in your faith then wishing somebody a merry christmas/happy holidays shouldnt really be a cause of concern, its courteous if anything else.
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
kidcanman, it is so good to know I'm not the last sane man left in this religion. If I could have given you reputation points ten times instead of just once with this system, I would have.
Impressed with yourself arent you bro? Im reminded of this verse
'Do not walk in the earth haughtily. Surely, you can never tear the earth nor rival the mountains in height' (17:37)
I refer to scholars but i don't take their rulings to be a commandment from Allah unless they cite where Allah commanded it. But more importantly I don't tell other people that Allah commanded this or that, when in fact it is a ruling from a scholar.
Brother scholars are not trying to take their rulings as the command of Allah. They are simply issuing thir verdicts using evidences from the Qur'an and Sunnah. As i have said to you before how can the Qur'an contain EVERYTHING? If it did then it would be too big and heavy to even carry and probably take a lifetime to read. The fact is Allah included everything that he needed to in the Qur'an and this is sufficient. The Sunnah is also from Allah as mentioned in the Qur'an so that is our other source where scholars derive thier rulings from. Scholars ONLY use that which is from Allah to derive their rulings not from their own desires. This is what you must realise. Therefore by referring to scholarly verdicts i am only doing what Allah commanded the lay people to do in the Qur'an and that is to refer to those with knowledge.
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
You cited a scholar that answered yes to the question "is it haram to say merry christmas" (post #21). Then you made the statement that we should not acknowledge the celebrations of any non-muslim festivals (#59).
Instead of indicating that it is advisable for muslims not to do it. You indicated that muslims should not do it. And you based that commandment on the judgement of scholars. It is your position that scholars can make an absolute commandment like that and say that it is according to islam (submitting to the will of Allah). Or in other words you think that their commandments are according to the will of Allah.
That is because i take the view of the vast majority of scholars on this issue that we must NOT acknowledge the celebrations of any non Muslim and i stick to that view which i am entitles to do. Scholars are allowed to issue verdicts and fatwas on matters which are not clear from the Qur'an and Sunnah based on their knowledge and understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah. They do not claim and never have done that any of their verdicts have the same weight as verses from the Qur'an or hadith. This is your own assumption.
Therefore you have taken the commandment of a scholar to be an absolutely true commandment.
In other words, you are taking a scholar's commandment to be the commandment of islam. And you think that it is haram not to follow this commandment.
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
In other words, you are taking a scholar's commandment to be the commandment of Allah.
You have just repeated the same thing several times. I take verdicts from scholars as every other Muslim has done for the past 1400 years. Again It does not mean that i am holding scholars verdicts to be of the same weight as verses from the Qur'an or hadith and scholars also do not imply that for again that is your own assumption and lack of understanding about scholarly verdicts which i recommend you research and look up in order to gain to clarification on this matter .
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
What I'm trying to tell you is that no man can derive a new ruling and say that this is a commandment of islam or Allah. What the scholars can do is relate their opinions. They can't "forbid" a certain act. They can just say, "i think it would be better if...".
What scholars do is as i have mentioned to you before they use their knowledge and understanding from the Qur'an and Sunnah and issue verdicts and fatwa's accordingly, deeming a matter either permissable or impermissable and they are entitled to their opinion as long as they have sufficient evidence either way and good reason to give such a verdict.
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
Allah says in the quran to say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail."6:114
Let us look at a more detailed translation of this verse:
Say to them O Muhammad: "Shall I choose a judge besides Allah when it is He Who makes and gives the law whereas all other judges only interpret it? It is He Who has sent down -the Quran- distinctly expressing all that is meant leaving nothing merely implied," .Ahl al-Kitab know it is Allah's sent Book in all truth. Therefore, do not let O Muhammad those who hide the truth and contend with opposing arguments influence your feelings or put you in doubt.
Note the highlighted. All scholars do is interpret it as best they can using their knowledge and understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah.
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
In post #59 you adamantly asserted that NO scholar (and you capitalized no) will say that you can greet christians with merry christmas. And you said that your view is unanimous and the consensus. I proved to you that that is not true.
Consensus means the vast majority and the vast majority do hold the view that it is not permissable and you have also admitted that this view is the majority one. All you proved was that there were a few scholars that take the other view but they count as a very small minority.
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
Now you claim that the "vast majority" of scholars support your point of view. In light of your earlier mistake, how can I believe this claim? I do believe that the majority of scholars agree with your point of view. But I first need proof before I can accept that it is a "vast" majority or that only a "few" scholars are of a differing opinion.
That is upto you to research and examine both views and evidences and decide which is more weighty in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah.
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
And you say that it "may be acceptable" to be inclined towards another point of view.
Yes as long as you do not follow that view according to your own desires or understanding but actually look at both views and evidences weighing them up and taking the view you are inclined towards after studying both properly and choosing the one you think has most weight behind it. As with any difference of opinion one should always look at the stronger opinion on any matter and take the precaution.
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
Is it acceptable or not? If the lay man is too ignorant to make his own judgements about what is right or wrong without scholars what is he to do when the scholars differ? What do the scholar's commandments come to then? Is the action haram according to islam or halal? I gues it is as you said. Scholars are human and they make mistakes.
Yes of course they make mistakes for they are not infallible and we as lay people will not be held accountable for following scholarly opinions as long as we did so weighing up evidences and going towards what we thought had more weight in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah and even Scholars won't be held accountable long as their intentions were good and they did the best they could with the evidences they had. Allah knows best and as the verses stated that you pasted he is the judge of all judges.
format_quote Originally Posted by kidcanman
So is it againts islam to wish christians a merry christmas? Is it against the "will of Allah"? or is it simply something that many scholars advise not to do and therefore a muslim can choose to take that advise or leave it?
Scholars issue their verdicts on the evidences they have seen and weighed up from the Qur'an and Sunnah and issue their verdicts and fatwas accordingly. It is upto us to research those views properly and then take the view we feel has the best evidences for but not those we just desire to follow without a particular reason as that would just be following ones desires and not following the view that holds most weight in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah.
And Allah knows best in all matters
Last edited by Hamza Asadullah; 12-26-2010 at 11:27 PM.
naam akhi very true but this doesnt mean that he ever prasied them or was pleased with there shirky acts and the prophet was Just with them as we should be this has nothing to do with this tread akhi ...
Asalaamu Alaikum. You have taken my post out of context. It was in response to a post by brother Yahya. You have joined this thread very late as it was created out of another thread and so will not know what that discussion was about in context.
im being very harsh with you here but,
i trust in my god moreso than any other thing in this world or out of it. if you believe that it is your prescribed duty to fight and that every stratagy available should be employed then i welcome you to the pacafist muslim that lays claim to all the prophets saw.
i celebrate the birth of the prophet saw without knowledge when they were born... what a very strange thing to do. for what reason would i do this and how would i do this?
i saw in another thread about a hadeeth saying the prophet muhammad* said to the jews that we have more right over moses saw than they did... i guess that would have been true back in the day.
Asalaamu Alaikum, you are not being harsh to me brother as i can only inform as best i can of the Islamic position of a particular matter and leave it at that. We should try our best to remember, talk about, emulate and look into the lives of the great Prophets of Allah may Allah bless them all for they were the best of people and they were the messengers of Allah on this earth. There does not need to be a specific day that we remember them for this could be anytime. We should try our best to emulate Rasulallah (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) for those who love him the most will emulate him the most. That is why i created this thread:
Let us try our best to bring the Sunnah into our lives as much as possible and remember we will be with those we love the most and if we claim to love the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) then let us emulate him in every aspect of our lives for he was the best and the seal of all of the Prophets of Allah.
Consensus means the vast majority and the vast majority do hold the view that it is not permissable and you have also admitted that this view is the majority one. All you proved was that there were a few scholars that take the other view but they count as a very small minority.
You wrote in an earlier post that NO scholar, will agree that you can wish christians a merry christmas. You wrote "NO" scholar.
So you are wrong on that point; and that's what I proved.
You have the right to believe any scholars you like. But you don't have the right to assert that what a scholar rules is unequivocally what a muslim should do.
Initially you made an unequivocal claim that muslims "can not" wish christians a merry christmas. You did not qualify this statement, and you did not say that this is your point of view.
So my question to you is are you still willing to stick with your initial statement, that Muslims, unequivocally, without a doubt, "Can Not" wish Christians a merry Christmas? Can you say that? Because that is how you stated it. You did not state that," this is what the scholars say", and you did not say, "this is what i believe". You simply said that muslims "Can Not" do it; meaning certainly, without a doubt, this is what allah intended.
That is my question to you: 100% without a doubt, is it ok for muslims to wish christians a merry christmas?
You wrote in an earlier post that NO scholar, will agree that you can wish christians a merry christmas. You wrote "NO" scholar.
So you are wrong on that point; and that's what I proved.
You have the right to believe any scholars you like. But you don't have the right to assert that what a scholar rules is unequivocally what a muslim should do.
Initially you made an unequivocal claim that muslims "can not" wish christians a merry christmas. You did not qualify this statement, and you did not say that this is your point of view.
So my question to you is are you still willing to stick with your initial statement, that Muslims, unequivocally, without a doubt, "C n Not" wish Christians a merry Christmas? Can you say that? Because that is how you stated it. You did not state that," this is what the scholars say", and you did not say, "this is what i believe". You simply said that muslims "Can Not" do it; meaning certainly, without a doubt, this is what allah intended.
That is my question to you: 100% withut aoubt, is it ok for muslims to wish christians a merry christmas?
Asalaamu alaikum, as i have already stated i based my assertion that it is not permissable to wish any non Muslim referring to their festivals on the fact that this is the consensus of scholars who based this ruling on the overwhelming evidence from the Quran and Sunnah and so as i have already confirmed to you a couple of times i stick by the consensus of scholars on this matter and have no reason not to.
So to conclude this thread based on the consensus of scholars of Islam on this issue it is NOT permissable to greet any non Muslims on their festival and that includes wishing them Merry Christmas as well as Happy new year but it is sufficient to reply to them with "Happy holidays".
And Allah knows best in all matters
Last edited by Hamza Asadullah; 12-27-2010 at 05:04 PM.
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