Please explain the sacrificial system

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One of the major arguments holding up the Christian viewpoint of Jesus (as) dying for our sins is that in the Old Testament, animals were sacrificed when people committed sins.

For Christians: Can you please point out which passages describe this sacrificial system in the Old Testament? Also, were these done for every sin, or just for some sins?

For Muslims: Does Islam believe that this system did in fact exist, and that people didn't have to repent, but merely they sacrificed an animal?

It seems that if no repentance at all were to take place, and instead people just sacrificed animals, there would be an awful lot of dead animals lying around. Also, from what I have read, this was introduced at the time of Moses. This leads me to believe that before Moses, this system did not exist.

Therefore, how did God forgive their sins before this system existed? If they simply repented and God forgave them, then why the need for sacrifices later on?

I believe that God is consistent, and in order for Christianity to be true, it has to show that throughout human history, there has always been something to absorb the sins of man, whether it be an animal or another man (ie, Jesus (as)).
 
Isaiah
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 1:11-18

Proverbs
http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Proverbs+16:6

Micah
http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?passage=micah+6:7-8

which is contradicted by Hoshea 6:6. For I desire loving-kindness, and not sacrifices, and knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hoshea 14:2-3:
 2 Take words with you and return to the LORD.
Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips.3 Assyria cannot save us; we will not mount war-horses. We will never again say 'Our gods' to what our own hands have made, for in you the fatherless find compassion."

Proverbs 21:3
To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
 
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Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 35 He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the lamb of the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar on top of the offerings made to the Lordby fire. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven. Leviticus 4:35

However, God was not pleased with Israel:
'What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? Says Yahveh. I have had enough of Burnt Offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. When you come to appear before Me, who requires of you this trampling of My Courts? Bring your worthless offerings no longer. Incense is an abomination to Me. New Moon and Sabbath, the calling of assemblies, I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. I hate your New Moon Festivals and your appointed Feasts. They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them. So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My Eyes from you. Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean. Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil. Learn to do good; seek justice. Reprove the ruthless. Defend the orphan. Plead for the widow.' (Is. 1:11-17)

It wasn't the sacrifice that angered the Lord, but the hypocrisy of those who sacrificed repeatedly and continued to sin.

'Alas, sinful nation! People weighed down with iniquity! Offspring of evildoers! Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned Yahveh! They have despised the Holy One of Israel. They have turned away from Him.' (Is. 1:4)

The point being that sacrifice, as God instructed, does achieve atonement for sin. It is our sin nature that animal sacrifice could not correct. The blood of Jesus Christ accomplished this.
 
rpwelton said:
One of the major arguments holding up the Christian viewpoint of Jesus (as) dying for our sins is that in the Old Testament, animals were sacrificed when people committed sins.

For Christians: Can you please point out which passages describe this sacrificial system in the Old Testament? Also, were these done for every sin, or just for some sins?

For Muslims: Does Islam believe that this system did in fact exist, and that people didn't have to repent, but merely they sacrificed an animal?

It seems that if no repentance at all were to take place, and instead people just sacrificed animals, there would be an awful lot of dead animals lying around. Also, from what I have read, this was introduced at the time of Moses. This leads me to believe that before Moses, this system did not exist.

Therefore, how did God forgive their sins before this system existed? If they simply repented and God forgave them, then why the need for sacrifices later on?

I believe that God is consistent, and in order for Christianity to be true, it has to show that throughout human history, there has always been something to absorb the sins of man, whether it be an animal or another man (ie, Jesus (as)).
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Well, it was God himself who introduced the concept of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins to mankind. This can be seen as far back as Cain and Abel's offerrings, as evidenced here:

'And in the process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering.

But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.' Genesis 4: 3-5.
 
@keltoi, fedos et al

what are the following verses talking about?
Hoshea 6:6. For I desire loving-kindness, and not sacrifices, and knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hoshea 14:2-3:
 2 Take words with you and return to the LORD.
Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips.
3 Assyria cannot save us; we will not mount war-horses. We will never again say 'Our gods' to what our own hands have made, for in you the fatherless find compassion."

Proverbs 21:3
To do justice and judgement is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

more to follow later (unless they disable my posting ability too)
 
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doorster said:
@keltoi, fedos et al

what are the following verses talking about?
Hoshea 6:6. For I desire loving-kindness, and not sacrifices, and knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hoshea 14:2-3:
 2 Take words with you and return to the LORD.
Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips.
3 Assyria cannot save us; we will not mount war-horses. We will never again say 'Our gods' to what our own hands have made, for in you the fatherless find compassion."

Proverbs 21:3
To do justice and judgement is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

more to follow later (unless they disable my posting ability too)
Click to expand...

I think Keltoi answered this when he said the following:

It wasn't the sacrifice that angered the Lord, but the hypocrisy of those who sacrificed repeatedly and continued to sin.
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if in a sacrifice you have to lose or give up something, what did Jesus (in Christianity) give up if he was God?

God owns everything and cannot die, what did he lose for "us"?

Thanks in advance!:)
 
AntiKarateKid said:
if in a sacrifice you have to lose or give up something, what did Jesus (in Christianity) give up if he was God?

God owns everything and cannot die, what did he lose for "us"?

Thanks in advance!:)
Click to expand...

It isn't what he lost, although He did die, but its about what He took upon Himself.
 
Keltoi said:
It isn't what he lost, although He did die, but its about what He took upon Himself.
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Thankyou for the reply!

So do are you saying that he didnt sacrifice anything? I was asking this in relation tot he title of "lamb of god", barring my confusion about how God could be a lamb for himself, you are saying that it the ACT that is important right?

OK, about the act then. I went to a catholic junior highschool so I am extremely fuzzy about this stuff so bear with me please :-[.

These is a rough breakdown about my thoughts on the system, and I appreciate your input

1. God didnt sacrifice anything but its the act that counts?

But then he isnt the Lamb of God because that would entail a sacrifice or losing something while you said that Jesus or God didnt actually lose anything.

2. The act of taking upon the sins of the world.

God has been Forgiving the sins of mankind, why the new twist on forgiveness?

You must agree that humans and God are two different entities. Our sins are our own problem that God warned us about, under threat of his wrath. Now CHristian doctrine teaches that God TOOK our sins upon himself. But want God FORGIVING sins before the coming of Jesus?

What I am essentially trying to convey is my confusion in trying to understand the doctrine that states God told us not to do sins and when we did he God absolved them without any sacricfice, God sent Jesus (or himself), so that Jesus (or Himself) could take up our sins to save us from his own wrath?


May Allah guide us.
 
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AntiKarateKid said:
Thankyou for the reply!

So do are you saying that he didnt sacrifice anything? I was asking this in relation tot he title of "lamb of god", barring my confusion about how God could be a lamb for himself, you are saying that it the ACT that is important right?
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Yes, He sacrificed His life. What I was attempting to explain is that what is even more important than His death is what that death accomplished.


AntiKarateKid said:
1. God didnt sacrifice anything but its the act that counts?

But then he isnt the Lamb of God because that would entail a sacrifice or losing something while you said that Jesus or God didnt actually lose anything.
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Christ is called the Lamb of God because His sacrifice was a perfect and final sacrifice. It must be understood what Christ was and is, which is God manifest in the flesh. It is that flesh that experienced death. Some suggest that Christ in the flesh also experienced separation from God, although that isn't accepted by all.

AntiKarateKid said:
2. The act of taking upon the sins of the world.

God has been Forgiving the sins of mankind, why the new twist on forgiveness?

You must agree that humans and God are two different entities. Our sins are our own problem that God warned us about, under threat of his wrath. Now CHristian doctrine teaches that God TOOK our sins upon himself. But want God FORGIVING sins before the coming of Jesus?
Click to expand...
It is important to understand that in Christian theology Christ's death benefited all people, those that died 1,000 years ago and those that will die in the future. There is a little confusion, unfortunately, about what happens upon death in terms of Christian doctrine. Christian doctrine does not actually suggest that upon death we automatically go to Heaven or Hell. We all await the Second Coming. That is the ultimate and final judgement. That judgement will be passed on those that died 10,000 years ago and on those that died in 2008.

AntiKarateKid said:
What I am essentially trying to convey is my confusion in trying to understand the doctrine that states God told us not to do sins and when we did he God absolved them without any sacricfice, God sent Jesus (or himself), so that Jesus (or Himself) could take up our sins to save us from his own wrath?
Click to expand...

If I understand your question you are asking why God would grant us a path to salvation by taking the sins of the world upon Himself?

There could be a novel written to explain this concept, but I will try to boil it down to simple terms.

God is a God of justice. There is sin and there is consequences for those sins. As Christians, we do not believe God simply decides who goes to Hell or who goes to Heaven. There is a system in place. "The wages of sin is death". That system included the substitution of sinless flesh and blood(animals) to replace the deserved human death for those sins. To clarify, "death" isn't necessarily referring to physical death, but spiritual death. This system given to Moses was intended as a foreshadowing of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. This is an example of God's mercy. As a God of justice, the system, or the Law, must remain. Unfortunately, human beings will still sin. Sacrificing animals as a substitution is instant atonement, but not eternal atonement. Jesus Christ, as the Lamb of God, granted that eternal atonement. There is no need to look for other substitutions. Christ was that substitution. Christ was that substitution because he was flesh and blood, spiritually perfect, stainless, etc. He was something that no human being could hope to achieve on their own.

Hope that makes some sense.
 
Keltoi said:
Yes, He sacrificed His life. What I was attempting to explain is that what is even more important than His death is what that death accomplished.



Christ is called the Lamb of God because His sacrifice was a perfect and final sacrifice. It must be understood what Christ was and is, which is God manifest in the flesh. It is that flesh that experienced death. Some suggest that Christ in the flesh also experienced separation from God, although that isn't accepted by all.


It is important to understand that in Christian theology Christ's death benefited all people, those that died 1,000 years ago and those that will die in the future. There is a little confusion, unfortunately, about what happens upon death in terms of Christian doctrine. Christian doctrine does not actually suggest that upon death we automatically go to Heaven or Hell. We all await the Second Coming. That is the ultimate and final judgement. That judgement will be passed on those that died 10,000 years ago and on those that died in 2008.



If I understand your question you are asking why God would grant us a path to salvation by taking the sins of the world upon Himself?

There could be a novel written to explain this concept, but I will try to boil it down to simple terms.

God is a God of justice. There is sin and there is consequences for those sins. As Christians, we do not believe God simply decides who goes to Hell or who goes to Heaven. There is a system in place. "The wages of sin is death". That system included the substitution of sinless flesh and blood(animals) to replace the deserved human death for those sins. To clarify, "death" isn't necessarily referring to physical death, but spiritual death. This system given to Moses was intended as a foreshadowing of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. This is an example of God's mercy. As a God of justice, the system, or the Law, must remain. Unfortunately, human beings will still sin. Sacrificing animals as a substitution is instant atonement, but not eternal atonement. Jesus Christ, as the Lamb of God, granted that eternal atonement. There is no need to look for other substitutions. Christ was that substitution. Christ was that substitution because he was flesh and blood, spiritually perfect, stainless, etc. He was something that no human being could hope to achieve on their own.

Hope that makes some sense.
Click to expand...

Thankyou for that response :D

THough, the question that came up immediately was at the very first part of your last paragraph. What do you mean God doesn't just decide who goes to heaven and hell? He is the one to whom we have to present ourselves to on Judgement day.

Why do disagree with my view that he is God, he alone can forgive us without going through an elaborate sacrifice system. If he wanted to forgive, he just does it. You explanation rested on this first statement. But I can't see the CHristian reasoning behind this.

May Allah guide us both.
 
AntiKarateKid said:
Thankyou for that response :D

THough, the question that came up immediately was at the very first part of your last paragraph. What do you mean God doesn't just decide who goes to heaven and hell? He is the one to whom we have to present ourselves to on Judgement day.

Why do disagree with my view that he is God, he alone can forgive us without going through an elaborate sacrifice system. If he wanted to forgive, he just does it. You explanation rested on this first statement. But I can't see the CHristian reasoning behind this.

May Allah guide us both.
Click to expand...

Because, from the Christian standpoint, God is not capricious. Sin is sin. If you sin you are deserving of punishment. Period. That is the issue. God doesn't condemn one person for a sin and forgive another for that same sin. Does that make sense? Nothing we do here on earth can "earn" our salvation and forgiveness. We were doomed to reap the wages of death. However, through Christ that redemption was achieved. We will sin, as we always do. However as Christians we believe that accepting Christ into your heart and bearing the fruit of that faith is the one and only path to salvation. You must acknowlege that sacrifice to earn the benefits of it.
 
Keltoi said:
Because, from the Christian standpoint, God is not capricious. Sin is sin. If you sin you are deserving of punishment. Period. That is the issue. God doesn't condemn one person for a sin and forgive another for that same sin. Does that make sense? Nothing we do here on earth can "earn" our salvation and forgiveness. We were doomed to reap the wages of death. However, through Christ that redemption was achieved. We will sin, as we always do. However as Christians we believe that accepting Christ into your heart and bearing the fruit of that faith is the one and only path to salvation. You must acknowlege that sacrifice to earn the benefits of it.
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Ok wait hold on.


Capricious??

Capricious: determined by chance or impulse or whim rather than by necessity or reason

Are you really saying that God forgiving those who he deems are worth it and who have repented by their actions and heart is capricious? There certainly is a system, like you said, but we believe it to be individual repentance.



You keep throwing that word around but I feel that you are using it inappropritely. God, unlike humans, knows what is really going on. He cannot be described as erratic or whimsical because whatever he does he does it in the fairest and most just way possible.

In Islamic theology, God does not accept the sacrafice of another to absolve your own sins. How does THAT make sense? I sin but that guy died for me so I dont have sin??? I commit a sin but my brother gets punsihed for it??


If God forgives a person, it is because either that person deserved it. THat person could have repented for it, acknowleged it was wrong, learned from theior mistakes or whatever. WHy wouldnt God have mercy on them??


Why should I benefit from someone else's actions if I am STILL SINNING? Why would God NOT forgive you when you repent, but FORGIVE you WHEN someone ELSE is punished???

That is not CAPRICE, that is MERCY. Youa re forgiven due to Gods mercy who forgives those that he Knows, as an omnipotent being, deserved forgiveness.
 
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While Christ's death did take away the sins of the world, he didn't die as a fulfillment of the sacrificial system. Rather that sacrficial system was a typology of Christ's death. And even more to the point than the sacrificial system, was the sacrifice of Abraham's son. Why did Abraham offer up his son, what was the purpose for that sacrfice -- to show obedience. This is what the first Adam lacked, and what the second Adam offers. And for those who trust in Christ, his offering of himself imputes his own righteousness to others. I don't understand any more about how or why this is so than Abraham did, I just trust in what God says and submit myself to its truth.
 
Grace Seeker said:
While Christ's death did take away the sins of the world, he didn't die as a fulfillment of the sacrificial system. Rather that sacrficial system was a typology of Christ's death. And even more to the point than the sacrificial system, was the sacrifice of Abraham's son. Why did Abraham offer up his son, what was the purpose for that sacrfice -- to show obedience. This is what the first Adam lacked, and what the second Adam offers. And for those who trust in Christ, his offering of himself imputes his own righteousness to others. I don't understand any more about how or why this is so than Abraham did, I just trust in what God says and submit myself to its truth.
Click to expand...


Abrahams sacrafice was a loyalty test to God, not an absolvation of his sins?
 
AntiKarateKid said:
Abrahams sacrafice was a loyalty test to God, not an absolvation of his sins?
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That's correct. Allah SWT tested Abraham by saying to him that he must sacrifice his son Ishmael. Abraham agreed without hesitation, as did Ishmael. It was only when the blade of the knife was just striking Ishmael's throat that Allah SWT replaced his son with a ram, which was sacrificed instead. Abraham had ultimate trust in Allah SWT, and this is only one of many acts which he performed that demonstrated this.
 
The sacrifice of Abraham's son is a foreshadowing of Jesus' own sacrifice. We are told that no one took his life from him, that he laid it down of his own free will. He did this because it is what his father asked of him. So, as Abraham and his son were obedient, so too was Jesus. However, unlike Abraham's offering which was a personal manifestation of obedience have effect only on his own life, Jesus' obedience as the 2nd Adam has the effect of negating the disobedience of the 1st Adam. In other words, neither Abraham and his son's offering nor Jesus' sacrfice is as much about the sacrificial system as it is about obedience to God. This doesn't mean that Jesus' death doesn't also have other ramifications beyond mere obedience, but obedience is even more important to understanding it than is seeing it as connected with the sacrficial system. Though of course, after it, there would be no need for the sacrificial system any more, for nothing better could be offered than Jesus' perfect offering of obedience, even unto death.
 
Greetings and peace be with you rpwelton;
Therefore, how did God forgive their sins before this system existed? If they simply repented and God forgave them, then why the need for sacrifices later on?
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Would it be safe to say that God had a plan before the creation of the universe began. If this is so, would it make sense that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus was planned before creation began. This would mean that the sacrifice to forgive all sins was in place before the creation of the Prophet Adam, and hence would cover all people from the beginiong.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and forgiving God

Eric
 

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