undisputed miracles of the Holy Quraan

[Gator]

Dudes,
Tarek was starting to go down the well traveled path of usual back and forth argument. I don't care what the link is, never saw it before (and honestly it gave only some of the the usual arguments, that's why I said google it).

None of us are going to be convinced.

The interesting point of this thread was the individual scientists (two I think) that have converted to Islam based on the strenght of the argument.

Just trying to keep the thread on track.

Let's see what CZ has to say.

Thanks.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

if you think that description of embryogenesis in QURAAN was haphazard then youb aree the one who needs to revise critical faculuties .

I don't recall mentioning embryology at all. I was talking about the youtube video you linked to. Do you really find it convincing?

when the ovum is fertilized it turns to oocyte and then to gametocytewhich then is stuck in the wall of uterus QURAAN described this position as (alaka)the litereral translation is hanging .for the past centuries it was thought taht the gametocyte is inside the uterine cavity and not attached to the wall how could QURAAN describe this position is not this miraculous ? what is the absolute evidence for you to see anatomy book coming from heavens ?

No, it is not miraculous. The Qur'an is a highly suggestive and poetic text that is open to many interpretations.

And anyway, this topic has been discussed many times, as people keep saying. If you want to know what people think about it, use the search feature at the top of every page on the forum.

Just when you think the 'scientific miracles' argument has been quietly laid to rest, along comes another person trying to sell it to us all. If I were a Muslim, I think I'd find it embarrassing.

Peace

 

[aamirsaab]

Of course it does. As does every link posted that takes the opposite point of view... which I note you don't comment on.
....

I misunderstood his post. I thought he was trying to further the conversation as opposed to making a point about the entire thread .

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Of course it does. As does every link posted that takes the opposite point of view... which I note you don't comment on.




No. As competent scientists their work will either stand up to peer review and critical analysis on it's own merits or it won't. Scientific papers are not opinion pieces.



I see no reason to hide any conversion/reversion to Islam, particularly after having made some of the comments attributed to them; the suggestion simply makes no sense. It's far more likely that, as the old saying goes, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck. Other than perhaps Bucaille these alleged conversions just never happened.

Are you serious? After Bucaille mentioned the relationship between the Quran and the Big bang theory, he was mocked for that and his scientific theories were called Bucailism.

Your answer surprises me. You are lying to youself if scientists start becomng heavily involved with one religion or another, that people will not be suspicious of their work's authenticity.

You yourself said that Moore probably got paid to say those things. You dismiss his work and call him biased.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings,


I don't recall mentioning embryology at all. I was talking about the youtube video you linked to. Do you really find it convincing?



No, it is not miraculous. The Qur'an is a highly suggestive and poetic text that is open to many interpretations.

And anyway, this topic has been discussed many times, as people keep saying. If you want to know what people think about it, use the search feature at the top of every page on the forum.

Just when you think the 'scientific miracles' argument has been quietly laid to rest, along comes another person trying to sell it to us all. If I were a Muslim, I think I'd find it embarrassing.

Peace

Its only your vain wish that it got laid to rest. Scientists from around the world have commented in favor of the miracles. Some have argues against it too. But the miracles still stand there.

THe only thing I find embarrassing are your paltry attempts at dismissing ever miracle that comes along your path and self-declaring it to be dead. THAT is embarassing.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Its only your vain wish that it got laid to rest. Scientists from around the world have commented in favor of the miracles. Some have argues against it too. But the miracles still stand there.

THe only thing I find embarrassing are your paltry attempts at dismissing ever miracle that comes along your path and self-declaring it to be dead. THAT is embarassing.

Ad hominem.

AKK, you are much more interesting when you address the issues.

Peace

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings,



Ad hominem.

AKK, you are much more interesting when you address the issues.

Peace

CZ, you yourself are interesting when you don't make grand statements like "I thought the scientific miracles argument has been laid to rest" and "if I were a Muslim, I would be embarrassed."

We are far from embarrassed at the signs found in the Quran. What we are is frustrated at others' dismissal of such claims by saying it is too poetic to be precise, the Greeks did it, etc etc.

If you want to go the Greek route: http://www.quranicstudies.com/artic...uran-plagiarise-ancient-greek-embryology.html


Poetic route is at your discretion though. I feel that it is precise, you disagree.

I apologize for that burst of emotion towards you but these are viable signs from God.

Peace

 

[tarek samy]

Dudes,
Tarek was starting to go down the well traveled path of usual back and forth argument. I don't care what the link is, never saw it before (nd honestly it gave only some of the the usual arguments, that's why I said google it).

None of us are going to be convinced.

Thanks.

we know that you are not convincible we are told in QURAAN that not all people will be muslims actually we are not trying to convince you we are discussing truth

if somebody thinks its embarasing to rediscuss miracles of Quraan then i think whta is more embarassing to post 2235 post to attack islam .actually you need to post 2 billion might it hav effect .our spiritual power is something you have not no , you will not either know

 

[Gator]

we know that you are not convincible we are told in QURAAN...

Oh I see. A book that is supposed to be the absolute TRUTH has a clause in it (right up front mind you) saying that anyone who doesn't believe it is the TRUTH is just not supposed to see it due to God (rather than him or her having actual objections relying on reason and intellect).

Well, nevermind then.

Thanks.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

we know that you are not convincible we are told in QURAAN that not all people will be muslims actually we are not trying to convince you we are discussing truth

if somebody thinks its embarasing to rediscuss miracles of Quraan then i think whta is more embarassing to post 2235 post to attack islam .actually you need to post 2 billion might it hav effect .our spiritual power is something you have not no , you will not either know

I don't post to attack Islam, and I don't particularly expect to convince anyone; I'm just discussing truth, like you. There's no need to get emotional about it.

I'm very surprised to learn that you think 2 billion internet posts might have an effect on Islam.

Peace

 

[tarek samy]

i am totally amazed that you cant get what i mean . of course i dont think that 2 billion post will affect islam neither do i think that you are able to right them in your lifetime . it is so called impossible conditioning .i think it is interestiing to start studying linguistics and hidden meaning of words here

SUBHANALLAH
__________________
Then, when they forgot that whereof they had been reminded,We opened unto them the gates of all things till, even as they were rejoicing in that which they were given, We seized them unawares, and lo! they were dumbfounded.

 

[ZarathustraDK]

for those who shade douts on the truth of islam .the proof of the miracles of the Holy book Of QURAAN have been confessed even by the non muslim scientists . the sophisticated description of some of the biologoical and natural process that was described by the Holybook some 14 centuries ago has left the scientist quite fascinated and declare that QURAAN is divine message
to know about this here is useful like www.islamguide.com

In that case, using your reasoning, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is proof that science is true and islam is wrong since she converted away from islam. As you will probably agree, this isn't correct way of reasoning (whether or not islam/science is good/bad).

These kinds of arguments, that scientists marvel at the Quran ergo it's true, are a bit moot. Whatever "hidden knowledge" is in the Quran according to such claims are utterly useless, as the knowledge apparently always stays hidden until science discovers it independently and believers go cherry-picking in their esoteric scripture to find ambiguous passages that can be interpreted in a fitting way.

I would be rather impressed instead, if the believers divined some useful discoveries from their divinely inspired texts and beat scientists to the goal by explaining stuff like quantum-theory fully, the cure for cancer or invent the hyper-drive.

 

[tarek samy]

although i dont feel that AYAAN is a topic to talk about here as we are talking about the scientific and miraculous aspect of the holy QURAAN i will rep[ly to some of the points that she had stated on no basis ,she is addressing the social aspect of islam as a failuer especially when dealing with womenok lets view some of her openion and think about it with reasoning

first she said that women are flogged when they practice adultry ,actually this is also the punishent for men when she was asked how she describes this as discrimination about women she made a naive statement that women get dicovered easily as they get prergnant ,so let me tell you a story .
one of teh women came to prophet Mohammed (PBUH) commiting adultry and she was carrying her newly borne baby . he told her to go and come back when she becomes older ,she returned one month later but he told her to go and take care of him then come later .doesnt this show mercy?
do you know that islam has put strict terms to prove adultry that to be witnessed by 4 persons can any one practice adultry in the prescence of 4 witness ? so islam always gives a way of returnig back to right way (tawba) . as for women islam has kept the dignity of women .islam has honoured motheres as never in other religion . any muslim woman can ask for separation from her husband when she feels even that life with him is incompatible . i think some one like AYAAN and her idle openion are not good example to show off or foloow she is someone who sees antagosism as advantage and way of gaining more fame but actually no link to reason

 

[BlackMamba]

In that case, using your reasoning, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is proof that science is true and islam is wrong since she converted away from islam. As you will probably agree, this isn't correct way of reasoning (whether or not islam/science is good/bad).

These kinds of arguments, that scientists marvel at the Quran ergo it's true, are a bit moot. Whatever "hidden knowledge" is in the Quran according to such claims are utterly useless, as the knowledge apparently always stays hidden until science discovers it independently and believers go cherry-picking in their esoteric scripture to find ambiguous passages that can be interpreted in a fitting way.

I would be rather impressed instead, if the believers divined some useful discoveries from their divinely inspired texts and beat scientists to the goal by explaining stuff like quantum-theory fully, the cure for cancer or invent the hyper-drive.

Haha you would want your religious book to be a science/medical book... Weird.
The Quran is a book of SIGNS not SCIENCE as said by Dr Zakir Naik

 

[ZarathustraDK]

first she said that women are flogged when they practice adultry ,actually this is also the punishent for men when she was asked how she describes this as discrimination about women she made a naive statement that women get dicovered easily as they...

I'm not saying anything about whether or not what Ayaan means is true or false, I'm simply saying that according to the OP's way of reasoning an argument like that would be valid and true. Hence, if you don't want Ayaan's claims to be true (for the idiotic reasons I made up), you don't want the OP's claims to be true for the same reason (that cherry-picking "redeemed ex-experts" is not proof of anything, proof relies on evidence, not on street-cred).

Haha you would want your religious book to be a science/medical book... Weird.
The Quran is a book of SIGNS not SCIENCE as said by Dr Zakir Naik

So...you're basically saying that the Quran is useless, and that it's ok to piggy-back on good science, claiming prior knowledge of a given discovery whenever it's made?

In that case, here's my holy book : "X works like this because of Y".

Whenever a new discovery is made I'll point to this text and proudly yell "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!", as I (as an XY-person) posses divinely inspired knowledge that makes it possible for me to interpret X and Y as anything I like.

 

[Trumble]

Are you serious? After Bucaille mentioned the relationship between the Quran and the Big bang theory, he was mocked for that and his scientific theories were called Bucailism.

Your answer surprises me. You are lying to youself if scientists start becomng heavily involved with one religion or another, that people will not be suspicious of their work's authenticity.

With respect, and with apologies for the delay in replying, I think you need to re-read my post. You are completely confusing philosophical and religious speculation with scientific research. Both can be 'work', but only one is 'science'. Bucaille did not offer any 'scientific theories' on the subject, let alone any that would stand up to peer review. Where are his equations?What were his experiments? Where are his results? Has anybody duplicated those results? Pointing out an alleged piece of 'Quranic science' in the form of alleged similarities between mainstream cosmological theories and what the Qur'an says does not constitute a 'scientific theory'.

You yourself said that Moore probably got paid to say those things. You dismiss his work and call him biased.

I don't dismiss his science, but the 'work' we are discussing is not science. Moore has never claimed that it was.

 

[tarek samy]

I'm not saying anything about whether or not what Ayaan means is true or false, I'm simply saying that according to the OP's way of reasoning an argument like that would be valid and true. Hence, if you don't want Ayaan's claims to be true (for the idiotic reasons I made up), you don't want the OP's claims to be true for the same reason (that cherry-picking "redeemed ex-experts" is not proof of anything, proof relies on evidence, not on street-cred).



So...you're basically saying that the Quran is useless, and that it's ok to piggy-back on good science, claiming prior knowledge of a given discovery whenever it's made?

In that case, here's my holy book : "X works like this because of Y".

Whenever a new discovery is made I'll point to this text and proudly yell "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!", as I (as an XY-person) posses divinely inspired knowledge that makes it possible for me to interpret X and Y as anything I like.

i see that you completely mix things up you are comparing things that are uncomparable . i replied to you as regard AYAAN point of view although it is by far much more trivial than credible scientists openions it is no way of comparison .all what you want to say is that there are some people antagonising islam and this is normal .we (muslims ) know as i told you before that not all people will be believers .but again we are revealing the intellectual proof of islam . isee it is completely unreasnable that you compare Quraan to the (x y book )youare refering to actually quraan phrases are determind and stressed they ofcourse are noy of the x xy ambiguuity you claim if you dont want to let your mind believe what is believable dont try to invent what is unbelievable

 

[ZarathustraDK]

i see that you completely mix things up you are comparing things that are uncomparable . i replied to you as regard AYAAN point of view although it is by far much more trivial than credible scientists openions it is no way of comparison .all what you want to say is that there are some people antagonising islam and this is normal .we (muslims ) know as i told you before that not all people will be believers .but again we are revealing the intellectual proof of islam .

I do not mix things up. What Ayaan says is completely irrelevant in what I'm getting at. I simply made a false argument saying that if person X (who used to be an adherent of point of view Y) "defects" to the other side and starts attacking point of view Y, then that is not proof that person X's case is true. Feel free to substitute person X with Ayaan, non-muslim scientists, Santa Claus, whoever fits your taste. I simply mentioned Ayaan as an opposite to the "non-muslim scientist"-version to show the bad reasoning in a format that muslims would instantly recognize and debunk.

Why is it so? Well, people of all walks of life has a tendency to favor arguments which are for their own cause, even when the arguments are logically incoherent. You probably do not see the pattern when using "non-muslim scientists", but jump at chance to criticize Ayaan because she is against something which is dear to you. It is not Ayaan you have to debunk however, it is the bad reasoning I use to put her forth as an argument, the argument itself should have been shot down before I even got to Ayaan, just as the OP's claim should have been shot down before people even started to debate particular "non-muslim scientists" and their musings.

isee it is completely unreasnable that you compare Quraan to the (x y book )youare refering to actually quraan phrases are determind and stressed they ofcourse are noy of the x xy ambiguuity you claim if you dont want to let your mind believe what is believable dont try to invent what is unbelievable

Belief and truth are two distinct things. I can believe in the XY-book because it says on the front-page that it was sent from the Heavenly Calculator. That does not make it true however. Neither does the fact that the Heavenly Calculator is mentioned in the XY-book mean that such an entity must exist.

In essence, it doesn't matter how "believable" any claims in the Quran or the XY-book are. As long as it is a matter about belief and personal inclination, truth will only cross its path by accident.

 

[Hamayun]

A wise man once said:

Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.

Not pointing fingers but you know who you are

Peace

 

[ZarathustraDK]

A wise man once said:

Quote:
Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.

Risk nothing, gain nothing