Who created god

[tetsujin]

How do you define 'Natural' and what would be likewise your definition of a 'supernatural world'?

Natural? Anything of, or within, the observable universe which is bound by the known and soon to be known laws of said universe. Positive integers and what not....

I pressume you have a working definition for supernatural world which is seperate and distinct from natural world, I don't. I haven't, to my knowledge, observed a supernatural world.

I'll use your definition, whatever it is, as long as we agree that the natural and supernatural are mutually exclusive.

I missed you too. Want you like a nice bag of Jamaican coffee beans? I got them for christmas and I'm not too fond of it.


Sincerely,

Faysal

 

[alcurad]

team of physicists has claimed...Their model may help explain why we experience time moving in a straight line from yesterday into tomorrow.

theory, not scientifically proven..

for this thread, generally, the human mind is limited, so from it's limited experience anything that is not observable in some form is 'not there' ie it doesn't exist. science tries to explain what's observable, religion explains matters beyond observing, that is beyond science. using either in place of the other is not understanding their nature.

 

[tetsujin]

theory, not scientifically proven..

for this thread, generally, the human mind is limited, so from it's limited experience anything that is not observable in some form is 'not there' ie it doesn't exist. science tries to explain what's observable, religion explains matters beyond observing, that is beyond science. using either in place of the other is not understanding their nature.

Metaphysical claims can be evaluated with reason and logic. It doesn't matter who is making a philosophical claim, we can all recognize formal logic? Yes?

Is there anything that cannot be explained by supernatural forces? If there isn't then what purpose, if any, does it serve? Apart from warm fuzzy feelings, I don't see the advantage.


Edit: Germ Theory, Atomic Theory, Theory of Gravity? Science does not prove anything, anyways....

Sincerely,

Faysal

 

[Chuck]

Wow, this confirms my theory.

What theory?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

What theory?

This one:

Here's one with no scientific basis whatsoever, however perfectly feasible from a philosophical standpoint, at least I think so.
Our universe is a byproduct of a reaction that took place in another universe where our logic, causality etc don't apply.

 

[Chuck]

theory, not scientifically proven..

for this thread, generally, the human mind is limited, so from it's limited experience anything that is not observable in some form is 'not there' ie it doesn't exist. science tries to explain what's observable, religion explains matters beyond observing, that is beyond science. using either in place of the other is not understanding their nature.

And what that dude is saying there is no nothing before big bang is not even a theory. Anyway, I'm showing the same thing, few years earlier scientists were saying there is nothing before 'big bang', and now with new technology and observations they are discovering that was not true.

 

[Chuck]

This one:

Btw, according to Quran there are 7 universes. JFYI

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Btw, according to Quran there are 7 universes. JFYI

Where?

 

[Hamayun]

Where?

Just off Junction 8 on the M25...

What kind of a question is that?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Just off Junction 8 on the M25...

What kind of a question is that?

A longer version just for you: could you show me the verse where the Quran speaks of there being 7 universes.

 

[alcurad]

If there isn't then what purpose, if any, does it serve? Apart from warm fuzzy feelings, I don't see the advantage.

how do you think the early humans advanced then? by being atheist?
civilizations existed because of metaphysical beliefs.

 

[Hamayun]

A longer version just for you: could you show me the verse where the Quran speaks of there being 7 universes.

2:29 He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.

23:17
We created above you seven universes in layers, and we are never unaware of a single creature in them.
67:3
He created seven universes in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?​

71:15​

Do you not realize that GOD created seven universes in layers?​

 

[Whatsthepoint]

2:29 He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.

23:17
We created above you seven universes in layers, and we are never unaware of a single creature in them.
67:3
He created seven universes in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?​

71:15​

Do you not realize that GOD created seven universes in layers?​

I thought these verses were supposed to refer to the layers of the atmosphere? Make up your mind already.^o)

 

[Hamayun]

Why would there be creatures in the layers of atmosphere? I'm confused :?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Why would there be creatures in the layers of atmosphere? I'm confused :?

I don't know, ask Mr Yahya.
What I'm saying is that it is equally baseless to assume the verses speak of seven universes or seven layers of the atmosphere.

 

[alcurad]

about that philosophy you mentioned Whatsthepoint:
[30:11] God is the One who initiates the creation and repeats it. Ultimately, you will be returned to Him. (qur'aan)

 

[Chuck]

I don't know, ask Mr Yahya.
What I'm saying is that it is equally baseless to assume the verses speak of seven universes or seven layers of the atmosphere.

Discussion has been done about it before, read this thread it is only 2 pages: http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/17500-seven-skies.html

I did some research into the this and I found out Quran uses two types phrase to refer to heavens, one was related to earth and other was universe. So I believe depending on the context it refers to two different things and one verse seems to be mentioning both:

Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number.
(065.012)

But only Arabic speaker can clear this up whether above verse means seven earths or it means seven layers on earth.

 

[tetsujin]

how do you think the early humans advanced then? by being atheist?

Early humans advanced through scientific endeavors, yes by and large they probably got things wrong along the way but no one prayed for a wheel to drop out of the sky.

civilizations existed because of metaphysical beliefs.

Can't disagree with that, although you may be thinking that "metaphysical beliefs" automatically implies GOD, I'm sorry.

Sincerely,

Faysal

 

[جوري]

Natural? Anything of, or within, the observable universe which is bound by the known and soon to be known laws of said universe. Positive integers and what not....

'Natural' has an imaginary line or standard by which things are measured or compared? No? -- but in and of itself is rather extraordinary.. as evidenced by the fact that it isn't reproducible in a vacuum..
for instance and I pose this Q.. can we perhaps simulate a universe in a small room.. still with our own manipulation throw in the ingredients, and anticipate the nascency of the smallest unit of life ( a cell), with each tiny unit forming on its own volition into tRNA, mRNA, cell membrane, cell wall -- support for such cells to resist osmotic pressure, cellular respiration, mitochondria, codons - nucleic acids, cytoplasm, cytoskeleton - enzymes - Golgi apparatus -nucleotides -nucleus - organelles - peptide bonds - ribosome - subcellular structures, RNA, RNA polymerase - rough endoplasmic reticulum (RER) -smooth endoplasmic reticulum (SER) - etc etc and from there expect that it falls into place that it would morph into all the different cell types present in the body to produce such things as ( skin, muscle, bone, blood vessel, and nerve), and migrate to the right location. and have that process again repeat again and again in that like harmony as a polymer to give us all that is in our known universe? whether in plants, animals, under the sea or the cosmos?

I pressume you have a working definition for supernatural world which is seperate and distinct from natural world, I don't. I haven't, to my knowledge, observed a supernatural world.

You haven't correctly defined to us what is 'natural' and thus can't really expect you to define what is supernatural.. I mean where is the baseline? If we were all born with special powers (like the X men) would that in and of itself be defined as 'natural' everyone possessing the same traits however amazing from where we are standing, will be 'natural'?..
If you'll sit back and observe you'll find that everything occurring 'on its volition' is pretty much extraordinary!

I'll use your definition, whatever it is, as long as we agree that the natural and supernatural are mutually exclusive.

see my above replies

I missed you too. Want you like a nice bag of Jamaican coffee beans? I got them for christmas and I'm not too fond of it.


Sincerely,

Faysal

I prefer french roast fresh ground daily with some cardamom.. so thanks but no thanks!

 

[tetsujin]

'Natural' has an imaginary line or standard by which things are measured or compared? No?

Sure

-- but in and of itself is rather extraordinary.. as evidenced by the fact that it isn't reproducible in a vacuum..
for instance and I pose this Q.. can we perhaps simulate a universe in a small room.. still with our own manipulation throw in the ingredients, and anticipate the nascency of the smallest unit of life ( a cell),

Normally I wouldn't cut you off here, but the rest of your paragraph really depends on an explanation to your/our? audience that a cell need not have, as an example, mitochondria or even a nucleus. Are you demanding the chance reproduction of Archaea, Eubacteria, Eukaryotic cells?

Life does not necessarly start of with all the wonderful things you've listed below. Although perhaps RNA may be necessary, I don't know, there could be some other form of life based on someother self replicating molecule.

with each tiny unit forming on its own volition into tRNA, mRNA, cell membrane, cell wall -- support for such cells to resist osmotic pressure, cellular respiration, mitochondria, codons - nucleic acids, cytoplasm, cytoskeleton - enzymes - Golgi apparatus -nucleotides -nucleus - organelles - peptide bonds - ribosome - subcellular structures, RNA, RNA polymerase - rough endoplasmic reticulum (RER) -smooth endoplasmic reticulum (SER) - etc etc and from there expect that it falls into place that it would morph into all the different cell types present in the body to produce such things as ( skin, muscle, bone, blood vessel, and nerve), and migrate to the right location. and have that process again repeat again and again in that like harmony as a polymer to give us all that is in our known universe? whether in plants, animals, under the sea or the cosmos?

I don't see how any of that relates to original question. Why create a vacuum and then render it useless by throwing stuff in? Creationists usually want me/us/non-theists to make everything from scratch...

Well, I'll even give you a hand. For anyone interested in Mixotricha Paradoxa

Blew my mind. This little guy lives inside the gut of a termite, who really can't live without it, and the Mixotricha depends on other bacterial symbionts for even moving around... (see those hair like "cilia"? those are bacterium stuck to it's wall)

I digress...

I don't see how any of that relates to original question.

You haven't correctly defined to us what is 'natural' and thus can't really expect you to define what is supernatural.. I mean where is the baseline? If we were all born with special powers (like the X men) would that in and of itself be defined as 'natural' everyone possessing the same traits however amazing from where we are standing, will be 'natural'?..
If you'll sit back and observe you'll find that everything occurring 'on its volition' is pretty much extraordinary!

You have a strange way of flirting with the English language. If everything is extraordinary I'd hate to be ordinary.

Feel free to define it correctly for me, I don't disgree wth anything you've said. And yes, if we were all "X-men" then that would be "natural". Let's not get to the "what if's" before we get through "what is".

I prefer french roast fresh ground daily with some cardamom.. so thanks but no thanks!

No problem, it'll sit around another year I guess.


Sincerely,

Faysal