How do we know that the Koran is true?

[Qingu]

To all the Muslims claiming that we need to ask Muslim scholars how to interpret the Quran before we criticize it or disbelieve it:

Did you ask Hindu scholars how to interpret the Vedas before you decided to disbelieve them?

How about Scientologist scholars before you decided to reject Dianetics?

Again, there is a clear double-standard here. Muslims freely reject every single religious text except the Quran, usually without reading or even skimming them, and rarely if ever consulting scholars who believe in the texts for their interpretations. And yet you guys seriously expect unbelievers to consult Islamic scholars before forming an opinion on the Quran?

 

[جوري]

what the..
Have you read any of the replies posted you?
The lowest common denominator expects that would at least read what you cut and paste before calling attention to your clamant needs, quote correctly or at least check what it is that you are quoting and alleging so when someone puts a the whole verse in context for you your, you are not so disturbed alleging acrobatics.
You haven't read the Quran as is apparent from your former cut and paste, yet you come accusing others of not reading of Scientology or Hinduism etc.. Do pls tell, what should we call that, if not short of an immature defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to others in a massive sweep.


God.. the majority of atheists disgust me on every level!

 

[Khalil_Allah]

Just like people don't get the Bible, people aren't going to get the Qur'an. If you really want to understand what's going on here, you have to put it in perspective. We have Muhammad saws, and we have this revelation. He claims to have been visited by the angel Gabriel and told to recite these words, as they were the final revelation from God (who had spoken to Jesus and Moses, etc.).

How do we know it's the truth? Prove it? Shouldn't we have to prove first that God exists? Or that Muhammad saws was really hearing from an angel?

Man, just listen to the message and understand the context in which it was revealed. I recommend starting like the Prophet saws. You don't know how to read Arabic, but you can understand a little if you get an Arabic dictionary. Grab a Qur'an with NO translation. Figure out how to get to Surah 96; al-Alaq (there are 114 surahs). Get your dictionary and find out the meaning of "iqra bismi rabbika allathee khalaq" "khalaq al-insana min alaq" "iqra wa rabbuka al-akram" "allathee alama bil qalam" "alam al-insana ma lam yaAllam."

If you think Muhammad saws just made this stuff up, then remember that he couldn't read. Why would his first revelation concede that men were taught with the pen? But God says... Read in the name of your lord!

Now, comes the next important part. Remember that God didn't reveal the Qur'an to our Prophet saws for his own sake. It is for all of us. EVERYONE. Now you see God is telling you to read.

And if you struggle through this thing, trying to understand the Arabic, trying to understand the context through which Muhammad saws would understand it, and then trying to understand what it means to you.... then comes your reward. Then comes your satisfaction that you have found the truth. It just happens. Struggle in spite of Muslims, to prove them all wrong once and for all, and you'll get the same result.

"Iqra wa rabukka al-akram":statisfie

Then comes the fun part... then you fix your voice as best as it can sound, and you recite until it flows off of your tongue like music. And you will come to see that this book is put together like nothing you've ever imagined. Everything seems to be so masterfully and purposely in its place. Not just that it makes sense in terms of Arabic language, but it flows like poetry you've never heard.

"allathee Alama bil qalam" "Alam al-insana ma lam yaAllam."

I wish that Muslims read this moreso than non-Muslims.

Salaam!

 

[syilla]

Could it be that you always find the answer because the Qur'an is so ambiguos that anyone can find the answer that they WANT to find and that's how we get Muslim 'A' saying it is a book commanding him to make war and Muslim 'B' saying it is a book of peace?

Actually as a muslim, we are being teach to follow the quran and hadith but if we can not find any solutions in it then we have to think ourselves the solutions. However, we still have to be firm in our aqeedah.

I'm merely answering it through my own experience .

Could it be that you always find the answer because the Qur'an is so ambiguos that anyone can find the answer that they WANT to find and that's how we get Muslim 'A' saying it is a book commanding him to make war and Muslim 'B' saying it is a book of peace?

Well actually, if you really want to find answers in quran and hadith according to islam...you have to learn all the principles of islam before you really want to learn the quran. Which mean years of studying.

Islam accept difference opinions but it should never be outside of aqeedah. Like education, they have different method and different ways of doing it.
Thats why people do conferences or meetings to gather everyone from different background to give their ideas on how their interpretation on things.

And, if the Qur'an always has the answer why has there been 1300 years of scholars and hadith interpretting it?

I think it is kinda cool... so islam is always up-to-date.

p/s:- i have two date lines to meet...the submission date is next week. :laugh: and i'm still learning to be a better muslim

 

[Thinker]

It seems that you feel that the Quran is ambiguous...

If it is unambiguous why do you need scholars to interpret it and why is there abbrogation?

A Muslim 'C' (who studied it objectively) saying it is a book commanding both (war &peace) making peace is the rule and war in necessity...

Exactly my point. . . Muslim 'A' can find the answers that he wants to hear from the war verses and Muslim 'B' can find the answers she wants from the peace verses.

 

[Thinker]

I see your problem with the Quran now. You think the religion derived form it is subjective to whomever is reading it.

That's another way of puttting it

Then don't try to intepret the Quran without the help of knowlegeable scholars.So.... lol at you for citing abmbiguity in the Quran with your ambiguous knowlege of it?

Ah . . .there's the 'scholars' again!! How many 'scholars' are there, which one should I choose? It appears to me that there is a 'scholar' out there for every interpretation you might want to find. And they are able to find the interpretation that Muslim 'A' or Muslim 'B' wants to hear bacause it is ambiguous and contradictory.

And before someone tells me that there is ambiguity and contradiction in the Bible, don't bother because I'll agree with you and they are there because the Bible (as is the Qu'ran) is the product of men who are fallible.

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

If it is unambiguous why do you need scholars to interpret it and why is there abbrogation?

People who have studied the Qur'an in depth are obviously going to be more knowledgeable about it than those who have not, and whose knowledge of it, is confined to the cherry-picking of ayats. This is why, when questions arise, people should consult with those who are knowledgeable.

The best tafsir (exegesis) is the explanation of the Qur'an by the Qur'an. Many of the questions which may arise out of a certain passage of the Qur'an have their explanation in other parts of the very same book, and often there is no need to turn to any sources other than the word of Allah, which in itself contains tafsir.

If it isn't explained in the Qur'an, then the next best source, would be the explanation of the Qur'an by Prophet Muhammad. There are numerous examples of explanations of the Qur'an by the Prophet, who either himself asked the Angel Gabriel for explanations of matters not clear to him, or who was asked by the Companions about the Qur'an.

If it isn't in either source, then the next step, would be to refer to the reports of the Sahabah. Then, for further clarification, consider the reports of the Tabi'un.

Ultimately though, none of these sources match the explanation of the Qur'an by the Qur'an itself, and by the Prophet.

For information on this:

Interpreting the Text

With regards to abrogation, I'm sure that you've notice, that it is only every applied to the laws/commands/customs governing society. That's because, as the situation changes, old laws/commands/customs get replaced by newer, better-suited ones:

Thoughts on Abrogation

Exactly my point. . . Muslim 'A' can find the answers that he wants to hear from the war verses and Muslim 'B' can find the answers she wants from the peace verses.

While someone who's actually studied the Qur'an in-depth, is going to have a better understanding of both of those verses, than both Muslim 'A' and Muslim 'B'.

 

[Thinker]

With regards to abrogation, I'm sure that you've notice, that it is only every applied to the laws/commands/customs governing society. That's because, as the situation changes, old laws/commands/customs get replaced by newer, better-suited ones

I am talking about later verses in the Qu'ran abrogating earlier verses. And, no it's not just those on inheritance which not only changed during Muhammads lifetime but are still being changed today; why is that - did someone make a mistake!! And then there's the verse saying nothing that comes later abrogates anything said earlier!!

 

[جوري]

A reply to an earlier post I can't find at the moment, as well as others can all be found here:
Alleged Internal Contradictions in the Qur'an
By : Ansar Al-'Adl
Throughout the history of humanity, we see a continued pattern. Our Lord and Creator created us out of love, and placed us on this planet as His Viceroy, to enjoin what is good and to forbidwhat is evil. We maintain our loving connection with God through sincere worship to Him. Humanity is being tested through this life on earth. Those of us who believe in God and do righteous deeds will be rewarded in the next life. But those who persist in evil, even after recieving warnings, will be punished in the next life.

Man has continually deviated from the true path of righteousness, to become enslaved by his personal desires. Thus, God appoints Prophets and Messengers among humanity, who recieve divine revelation, to call people back to the path of truth, the path of loving submission to Our Creator. God's Messengers recieved the word of God, His message and commandments for humanity.

Muslims believe all of God's Messenger preached the same message of Islam (submission to the One God). This includes Prophet Adam, Prophet Noah, Prophet Abraham, Prophet Moses, Prophet Jesus, and God's final messenger Prophet Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon them all.

The Qur'an is God's last revelation to humanity, revealed to Prophet Muhammad pbuh, and is the spoken words of God, which He has vowed to preserve throughout time. All previous messages including the Torah and the Injeel were only intended for their respective nations and served as test for their respective nation to preseve the message. Unfortunately, this test was not succesfully completed and the previous messages have become corrupted, tampered and mixed with the work of human beings. This is why God has sent the Qur'an to confirm the truth, but reject all deviation that has crept in. It is a criterion. The test of the Qur'an is not its preservation, but in spreading the message to all nations.

Much has been said about the Qur'an, and both Muslims and Non-Muslims have praised it for its perfection and beauty. One may read about what has been said about the Qur'an, here.

The question arises, how can one be assured that a book is from God?

There are a number of reasons and much evidence which proves that the Qur'an is the word of God. These have been explored in many books, and on many websites, including here. For the purpose of this article, we will examine one of those reasons - consistency.

We must remember that the Qur'an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad pbuh over a period of 23 years. During that time, he passed through widely diverse periods of struggle and peace. It is inconceivable that any human being would be able to remain consistent in their teachings and thoughts during this period of time. All human beings go through development and evolution in their thoughts and works. It is natural to obsevre such changes, and we would expect to see even greater changes in the teachings of a man through periods of persecution, peace, migration, success, suffering, unity, support, opposition, etc.

Yet the Qur'an is free of all such human defficiencies and inconsistencies. And the only reason is because it is a revelation from Our Creator, Most Merciful.

20:4 A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the heavens on high.
69:41-43 It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe! Nor is it the word of a soothsayer: little admonition it is ye receive. (This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
​

The Qur'an, itself, provides us with this criteria to use in evalutating its claim of divine origin:

4:82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy/inconsistency.
​

This criteria is acknowledged in previous revelations as well.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace...."
​

God is perfect, and therefore we should expect inerrancy and perfection in His words. This article will demonstrate, God willingly, that the Qur'an is free of such inconsistencies and human deficiencies, and therefore can only be the word of God, Glorified and Exalted.

Often, we will see that there are multiple interpretations and explanations of certain verses. Consequently, we shall frequently present more than one explanation, each being sufficient to refute the allegation on its own.

• The Inheritance Law
• The Number of Angels Speaking to Mary
• On The Length of God's Days
• The Number of Gardens in Paradise
• The Number of Groups on Judgement Day
• Who Takes the Soul at Death
• The Number of Wings on Angels
• The Number of Days Taken to Create the Universe
• Was Creation Quick or Slow
• Which was created first: the Heavens or Earth ?
• 'Called Together' or 'Ripped Apart'?
• The Time Taken to Destroy the 'Aad
• What was Man Created from?
• Where is Allah
• On the Origin of Calamity
• The Mercy and Guidance of Allah
• Will there be Inquiry in Paradise?
• Are Angels Protectors
• Is Everything Devoutly Obedient to Allah?
• Does Allah Forgive Shirk?
• Did Abraham Commit Shirk?
• Worshipping the Same or a Different God?
• The Sequence of Events in the Calf-worship of the Children of Israel
• Guilt of Aaron in the Calf-Worship?
• Was Jonah Cast on the Desert Shore?
• The Reference to the Injeel at the time of Moses
• Concerning the Food for the Inhabitants of Hell
• Forgiveness for Slander of Chaste Women
• How the Disbelievers will Recieve their Record on Judgement Day
• Can Angels Disobey - the case of Iblis
• Can Angels Disobey - the case of Harut and Marut
• Angel Gabriel and the 'Holy Spirit'
• Confirming the Old Revelation or Substituting it?
• The Qur'an's Pure Arabic and the Presence of Foreign Words
• The Qur'an Being Contained in Previous Revelations
• Lot's Wife Being Called 'an Old Woman'
• The Response of Lot's Nation
• Is the Punishment and Mercy of Allah Arbitrary?
• The Fate of Noah's Family
• Was Noah Driven Out?
• Regarding Pharoah's Fate
• Pharoah's Repentance
• Abrogation and the Unalterable Word of God
• Whom Allah Guides
• Salvation for Non-Muslims

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

I am talking about later verses in the Qu'ran abrogating earlier verses. And, no it's not just those on inheritance which not only changed during Muhammads lifetime but are still being changed today; why is that - did someone make a mistake!! And then there's the verse saying nothing that comes later abrogates anything said earlier!!

There is no mistake. Like I said, as the situation changes, laws/commands/customs are changed accordingly. This isn't just about inheritance, it's in general. This applies to both the earlier revelations being abrogated by the Qur'an, and ayats within the Qur'an being abrogated by others:

Qur'an 2:106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things?

Qur'an 16:101:
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and God knows best what He reveals,- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

The verses you are talking about, actually says that no one can abrogate God's words. Obviously, this doesn't mean that God himself can't do this, just that others besides God have no authority to do so:

Qur'an 6:115:
The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

Qur'an 18:27:
And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.

 

[Imam]

If it is unambiguous why do you need scholars to interpret it?

you responded Exactly as what I expected you would say....

Now I would like you to give me your conception of (Quranic interpreatation)

Is it to clear ambiguity? if so give me some examples of Quranic vague laws,spritual teachings that seems like a secret code needs scholars to interpret it...
If you continue only assertions ,one then would guess where is such ambigiouty enmate...

Exactly my point. . . Muslim 'A' can find the answers that he wants to hear from the war verses and Muslim 'B' can find the answers she wants from the peace verses.

If from the same verse your words may have some merit....

 

[Tara x]

Iv read that the Quran has not changed since the day it was revealed?

 

[Thinker]

There is no mistake. Like I said, as the situation changes, laws/commands/customs are changed accordingly. [/I]

Thank you for your reply to my post

My most recently deleted posts were deleted because I was told that I am not allowed to ‘interpret’ the Qu’ran as there are ‘scholars’ for that and I am not a scholar. I asked for explanation and got none! Before this post is deleted I would like to say . . . I am not quite sure how the moderators define interpret but I can’t see how anyone can examine/study anything without forming a view on what it is or what it means. In the case of a book with so many ambiguities, this is sometimes called interpretation. What follows is not my ‘interpretation’ it is the view I have formed from my examination and study of the evidence. Whether it is the correct view or not or whether anyone agrees with my view or not is a matter for them; (I presume) we are all allowed our own view?

Take the below verses and tell me that the Qu’ran is clear and unambiguous. . .

Qur'an 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things?

Qur'an 16:101: When We substitute one revelation for another,- and God knows best what He reveals,- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

How is it possible to substitute something with something else without abrogating the former? Is it good enough to say the words ‘None of Our revelations do We abrogate’ when substitution is de facto abrogation.

Next question is why does Mohammed need to iterate those verses and in fact do it twice (presuming there was a period of years between them)? In my opinion, because he was reciting a verse and someone who then pointed out to him that it contradicted an earlier verse! Now you say but things changed (albeit in an area and at a time when little changed for hundreds of years). Surely God (being a God) knows the future and knows how things will change and God (being a God) can not make a mistake but Mohammed being a man can!

 

[Thinker]

Alleged Internal Contradictions in the Qur'an

[*]The Inheritance Law

Ah . . . most revered Skye,

I’ve also had posts deleted because they are topics which have already been discussed so I will fight back the urge to start a debate on which way is east and the location of heaven etc.!! And you know I would not take you on in debate because I will lose :smile: That said. . . .

First point I would like to make is that the reason your list is so long and the reason these questions keep coming up is because the text is ambiguous and contradictory.

Next, I did take a quick peak at Inheritance, I looked at the answer given and my notes.

The verse (4:11) in question says:

4:11. God (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance):
to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:
if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half.
For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children;
if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third;
if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth.

Dieing leaving two daughters, two parents and a wife adds up to an impossible one and one sixth i.e. one sixth more than exists.

The scholars answer to this in your post is . . . . .
The first major point to note is that there are two types of inheritors. The first category are those who have received a fixed inheritance, which includes the spouse and the parents. The second category includes those who take their share AFTER the shares of the first category are distributed. This includes siblings and children.
So if we understand this, we know that the parents and the wife would receive their amount, and the daughters would get a share of what remains.

He is saying that the daughters, two or more, their share is (NOT) two-thirds of the inheritance it is two thirds of what remains after the other get theirs. That is NOT what the verse says! Again, is this another example of the Qu’ran’s ambiguity or did someone make a mistake?

Next (my notes made some time back) show me that the Qur’an mentions nine persons entitled to a share but ‘scholars’ have since added a further three making a total of 12!! Again, is this another example of the Qu’ran’s ambiguity or did someone make a mistake?

 

[alcurad]

. .

Qur'an 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things?

a quick reply; the verse 2:106 you quote is not translated correctly, rather it means:
"we do not abrogate or cause a verse to be forgotten but bring a better one or one like it...".

and the qur'an's ambiguity is necessary for it to survive the test of time, any and all have the right to interpret, provided they have enough knowledge.
try not to build too many assumptions without much backing, although here you had an inaccurate translation.

 

[Thinker]

and the qur'an's ambiguity is necessary for it to survive the test of time,

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. It's also sometimes called smoke and mirrors!

 

[Thinker]

muslimapoclyptc thank you for your posts,

I am not sure if I replied to this post

I asked . . . Why did Uthman destroy the original text after he 'codified' it?

You replied . . . To standardize the Qur'an in the Quraishi Arabic dialect. When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, and in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. He then compiled all of the Noble Surahs (Chapters) of the Noble Quran that were already written during the time of Prophet Muhammad in the city of Medina and formed what we call today the one true copy of the "Noble Quran".

So why did he destroy the original text? You have Muslims today up in arms if anyone defaces a modern day copy of the Qu’ran and Uthman destroyed the original copy!!

And, if it was, as you say, written in different dialects how can you claims that the Qu’ran you read today is the same as the original?

I asked . . . And, where are the original copies that Uthman created and why can they not be examined?

You replied . . . There are many old copies of the Qur'an, that are purported to have been one of the 'Uthmanic copies, such as:

the one in Uzbekistan, the one in Turkey, and the one in Russia. You also have the one in Egypt, which is the perhaps the oldest one, and is either an 'Uthmanic copy, or an exact copy of the original. And obviously, you can see it, and look through it, as is apparent in the images.

None of these copies have been proven to be an original Uthman, some of them have been altered and why are the pages not photographed and published?

Isn’t it all just a little bit suspect?

 

[alcurad]

it hasn't much to do with different dialects, actually the different dialects are incorporated in learning the qur'an, atleast if you go to higher level studies. not much differences in meaning occur either way.
since the Arabs were generally illiterate and didn't have an unambiguous text-no dots etc- in the first place, not all the companions who attempted to write down the qur'an actually wrote it correctly, or they didn't have a clearly organized text, as in a verse would be written then explanations and commentary would interspersed between the verses, almost to a degree that a person not well versed in such matters would extremely confused in trying to read what was actually written.
the unification of the script of the qur'an occurred with the approval of the companions, not to mention that if anything were indeed altered it would have been challenged right away.not to mention, mostly the qur'an was memorized, even if something were amiss in the written copies, it would not have taken long to expose it.

 

[alcurad]

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. It's also sometimes called smoke and mirrors!

no, it's called bias, we all have it, it's very difficult to let go of, rearing it's head whenever a threat appears!

 

[Thinker]

it hasn't much to do with different dialects, actually the different dialects are incorporated in learning the qur'an, atleast if you go to higher level studies. not much differences in meaning occur either way.
since the Arabs were generally illiterate and didn't have an unambiguous text-no dots etc- in the first place, not all the companions who attempted to write down the qur'an actually wrote it correctly, or they didn't have a clearly organized text, as in a verse would be written then explanations and commentary would interspersed between the verses, almost to a degree that a person not well versed in such matters would extremely confused in trying to read what was actually written.
the unification of the script of the qur'an occurred with the approval of the companions, not to mention that if anything were indeed altered it would have been challenged right away.not to mention, mostly the qur'an was memorized, even if something were amiss in the written copies, it would not have taken long to expose it.

Thank you for a well balanced answer and one which, although might not agree with all you say, without being 'picky,' I have difficulty in faulting.

And the reason for destroying the original text?